Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
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Andrew Usher - 24 Dec 2009 13:58 GMT The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people accepted the use of national languages exclusively in this endeavor where international understanding is more imperative than any other. It is true, that the use of Latin by 1700 had already passed almost everywhere else, but its last remaining use should still have been enough to support it, given that Latin was the one language that every educated man in the Western world knew, and that Latin, having such a long tradition of use, was at least suitable for scientific and technical purposes as any other language at the time.
And so, some explanations suggest themselves. The first is that the predominant advocates and defenders of Latin, from the Renaissance to now, are from the humanities; and so once Latin had disappeared from live literary use, their support was no longer important. The second is to blame it on the French: they abandoned Latin earlier than anyone else, and are well-known to have an inflated view of the greatness of their own language. But that does not seem to explain how it happened everywhere else: had they wanted to emulate the French, they would have started writing in French, and if they had wanted to oppose them, they should have re-emphasised the role of Latin.
Now, of course, I can't propose the revival of Latin for these purposes: English has virtually replaced it as the international scientific language. But it look a long time during which dealing with many different languages was a considerable problem, and it seems as though this should have been avoided.
Andrew Usher
Mahipal7638 - 24 Dec 2009 17:43 GMT > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Andrew Usher Science, enlightened or not, is Language independent, Language indifferent, Latin or otherwise.
One can arbitrarily translate scientific thought, it's not poetry, from one Language to another.
Enjo(y)... -- Mahipal http://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/
chazwin - 26 Dec 2009 21:20 GMT > > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Science, enlightened or not, is Language independent, Language > indifferent, Latin or otherwise. All thinking is language dependant.
> One can arbitrarily translate scientific thought, it's not poetry, > from one Language to another. So naive.
> Enjo(y)... > -- > Mahipalhttp://mahipal7638.wordpress.com/meforce/ Peter T. Daniels - 26 Dec 2009 22:10 GMT > > > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > All thinking is language dependant. Does making art not count as thinking?
> > One can arbitrarily translate scientific thought, it's not poetry, > > from one Language to another. > > So naive. It's an axiom of modern linguistics (and it has never been disproved) that anything that can be said in any one language can also be said in any other language -- you may need to introduce new vocabulary to cover new concepts and realia (but the concepts can be explained with paraphrases, just as is done in both philosophy and science), but that's a trivial matter.
chazwin - 28 Dec 2009 10:11 GMT > > > > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > > > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > paraphrases, just as is done in both philosophy and science), but > that's a trivial matter. Another axiom of modern linguistics that that there never is any complete translation between two instances of the same statement. This is true even across the same language. If you copy and paste this posting to another forum, another person will react to it in a different way and take a different meaning from it.
António Marques - 28 Dec 2009 12:21 GMT chazwin wrote (28-12-2009 10:11):
>> It's an axiom of modern linguistics (and it has never been disproved) >> that anything that can be said in any one language can also be said in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > another forum, another person will react to it in a different way and > take a different meaning from it. Then clearly that's not a question of language per se.
chazwin - 28 Dec 2009 18:49 GMT > chazwin wrote (28-12-2009 10:11): > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Then clearly that's not a question of language per se. That is a non sequitur. Just because there is no EXACT translation does not mean that NO linguistic meaning has been conveyed. Meanings can be hermeneutic, semantic and linguistic.
António Marques - 28 Dec 2009 19:57 GMT chazwin wrote (28-12-2009 18:49):
>> chazwin wrote (28-12-2009 10:11): >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > linguistic meaning has been conveyed. Meanings can be hermeneutic, > semantic and linguistic. This here comment of yours bears no relationship to mine.
DKleinecke - 29 Dec 2009 02:32 GMT > > > > > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > > > > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > posting to another forum, another person will react to it in a > different way and take a different meaning from it. Even the same person will read his/her own statements differently at different times often enough to make the principle apply to this case also.
An interesting experiment is to write down all you can remember about some especially vivid dream ( immediately upon waking up, of course ). put the dream narrative away for a while, six months maybe, and then read it again. It will sound utterly alien.
Mahipal7638 - 04 Jan 2010 00:33 GMT > > > > > > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > > > > > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > > Does making art not count as thinking? Make some new and original art and we'll see how it adds to thinking. No time limit imposed by me.
> > > > > One can arbitrarily translate scientific thought, it's not poetry, > > > > > from one Language to another. > > > > > So naive. Yeah, truth is often naive. Truth is so obvious.
> > > It's an axiom of modern linguistics (and it has never been disproved) > > > that anything that can be said in any one language can also be said in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > posting to another forum, another person will react to it in a > > different way and take a different meaning from it. Cross-posting has nothing at all to do with content of message. All interpretation is biased based upon who pays for the bills. Or what Usenet group is your Sanctuary. It's been shown repeatedly across all cultures.
> Even the same person will read his/her own statements differently at > different times often enough to make the principle apply to this case > also. One can never come to same the river twice. The momentum of the water makes it scientifically so.
> An interesting experiment is to write down all you can remember about > some especially vivid dream ( immediately upon waking up, of course ). > put the dream narrative away for a while, six months maybe, and then > read it again. It will sound utterly alien. Dreams are telling. Yet, they are better forgotten than interpreted. I say forgotten because I am bitter. Why? I've seen my dreams that would've been best never had, or at best forgotten. Not that you asked.
Enjo(y)... -- Mahipal
António Marques - 04 Jan 2010 11:25 GMT Mahipal7638 wrote (04-01-2010 00:33):
>> An interesting experiment is to write down all you can remember about >> some especially vivid dream ( immediately upon waking up, of course ). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > say forgotten because I am bitter. Why? I've seen my dreams that would've > been best never had, or at best forgotten. How about this: you write down the one you like and you ignore the rest.
Joachim Pense - 28 Dec 2009 11:58 GMT Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):
> > One can arbitrarily translate scientific thought, it's not poetry, > > from one Language to another. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > paraphrases, just as is done in both philosophy and science), but > that's a trivial matter. Of course an _axiom_ is a sentence that is fundamental for a theoretical system (like modern linguistics). But if any axiom (and the theory building on it) can be applied to any real phenomenon (like actual languages), that needs evidence.
So your statement that it's an axiom doesn't say much except that modern linguistics is only applicable to those languages for which the axiom holds.
It's the side remark that it has never been disproved that is the actual meat of your argument.
Joachim
Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 00:41 GMT > All thinking is language dependant. I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're hungry isn't thinking.
 Signature Rob Bannister
DKleinecke - 27 Dec 2009 01:47 GMT > > All thinking is language dependant. There is a lot of that going around. People who think verbally tend to think people who think in other modes aren't thinking.
In mathematics there have always been algebraists who think verbally and geometers who think in pictures. This has been understood now, by mathematicians, for a long time and both sides make adjustments. It appears that about 75% of mathematicians think verbally and 25% visually.
Outside of mathematics this puts visually minded people in a minority like left-handed people. A lot of educators think they must be taught do things the right way.
But visually-minded people are in a worse fix than left-handed people because their thinking is considered as not thinking at all. But they learn to cope.
It is possible that many linguists are visually-minded people who had to focus much more intensely on language in order to get along and learned how fascinating the whole thing is.
Peter Moylan - 27 Dec 2009 02:15 GMT >>> All thinking is language dependant. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > like left-handed people. A lot of educators think they must be taught > do things the right way. If visually minded people are in a minority, there must be two different meanings of "visually minded".
I've found that I belong to that minority of people who have trouble imagining a picture in their mind. I can't, for example, mentally form a picture of the face of somebody I know well. My visual memory is terrible. My auditory memory, on the other hand, is pretty good.
As far as I know, most people do have the ability to imagine a scene in a photographic way. Whenever I mention it, everyone is surprised that I don't see in pictures. It seems that the vast majority of people are visually minded in the sense I'm thinking of.
My lack doesn't hinder my ability to think geometrically. I can easily picture a diagram. Perhaps "picture" is the wrong word, though, because I'm probably seeing that diagram as an interlinked set of symbols rather than as a projection onto a three-dimensional or two-dimensional image space.
I'm curious to know whether there is any connection between "visually minded" in the sense used above in reference to mathematics, and "visually minded" in the sense that makes one a good artist.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Chuck Riggs - 27 Dec 2009 12:51 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >minded" in the sense used above in reference to mathematics, and >"visually minded" in the sense that makes one a good artist. Did an AUE member add all these newsgroups to the thread? I knew an American Indian who thought and dreamed mainly in pictures. He told me that was common in his tribe. I suspect this proclivity would come in handy when associating names and faces, among other things. It is a skill I am poor at, for I think almost exclusively in words. Is being hungry, as I am now, a form of thinking or do I tell myself, "I am hungry"? It is my brain, yet I don't know.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
chazwin - 28 Dec 2009 10:24 GMT > > > All thinking is language dependant. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > appears that about 75% of mathematicians think verbally and 25% > visually. I would not dis-clude the language of maths in my statement above, either visual or numerical.
> Outside of mathematics this puts visually minded people in a minority > like left-handed people. A lot of educators think they must be taught > do things the right way. Most educators are aware of a range of teaching styles, but are forced through circumstances to choose for the majority.
> But visually-minded people are in a worse fix than left-handed people > because their thinking is considered as not thinking at all. But they > learn to cope. As did I. Visual thinkers make good carpenters.
> It is possible that many linguists are visually-minded people who had > to focus much more intensely on language in order to get along and > learned how fascinating the whole thing is. I'm not so sure about that.
PaulJK - 27 Dec 2009 03:28 GMT >> All thinking is language dependant. > > I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're > hungry isn't thinking. I guess it turns tricky, if you make frequent spelling mistakes in your thinking. :-) pjk
Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 23:04 GMT >>> All thinking is language dependant. >> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're >> hungry isn't thinking. > > I guess it turns tricky, if you make frequent spelling mistakes in your thinking. :-) It's well known that if you make one tiny mistake then the spell rebounds upon the caster. What this will do for thinking is anyone's guess.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Leslie Danks - 27 Dec 2009 23:11 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > rebounds upon the caster. What this will do for thinking is anyone's > guess. Not to mention one's blood sugar level.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Peter Moylan - 28 Dec 2009 00:52 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's well known that if you make one tiny mistake then the spell > rebounds upon the caster. That's why spell checkers were invented.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
PaulJK - 28 Dec 2009 08:00 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's well known that if you make one tiny mistake then the spell > rebounds upon the caster. What this will do for thinking is anyone's guess. I feel sorry for any witch with a speech defect. pjk
Robert Bannister - 28 Dec 2009 23:05 GMT >>>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I feel sorry for any witch with a speech defect. They are usually known by their more common name: frogs.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Marvin the Martian - 27 Dec 2009 19:16 GMT >> All thinking is language dependant. > > I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're > hungry isn't thinking. It is a Chomsky thing.
The rebuttal to Chomsky's assertion that thinking is language dependent is simple: Observe how a chimpanzee has an ability to reason that is not too far behind the average human; problem solving and primitive tool use. Since chimps have no language, how is it that they think? Ergo, not >all< thinking is language dependent.
Q.E.D.
Leslie Danks - 27 Dec 2009 20:13 GMT >>> All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > too far behind the average human; problem solving and primitive tool > use. Being a Martian, you would think that.
> Since chimps have no language, how is it that they think? Ergo, not > >all< thinking is language dependent. > > Q.E.D.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Peter T. Daniels - 27 Dec 2009 21:25 GMT > >> All thinking is language dependant. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Q.E.D. Where did Chomsky assert such a thing?
Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 23:06 GMT >>> All thinking is language dependant. >> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Q.E.D. Except that chimpanzees and some other apes have been successfully taught sign language, so I'm not sure that "have no language" is quite true. I doubt that most of us think verbally except when we are composing sentences in our heads.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Peter T. Daniels - 28 Dec 2009 03:15 GMT > >>> All thinking is language dependant. > >> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > true. I doubt that most of us think verbally except when we are > composing sentences in our heads. Are you sure about that "successfully"? Has a native ASLer ever had a conversation with a chimpanzee or gorilla who allegedly "signs"?
Robert Bannister - 28 Dec 2009 23:06 GMT >>>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Are you sure about that "successfully"? Has a native ASLer ever had a > conversation with a chimpanzee or gorilla who allegedly "signs"? I've seen it on TV, so it must be true.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Chuck Riggs - 29 Dec 2009 12:16 GMT >>>>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>>>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I've seen it on TV, so it must be true. While with the navy, I worked with a retired Chief for almost a year who tried to settle an argument we were having by saying, "It is true. I read it in a book."
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Marvin the Martian - 28 Dec 2009 18:13 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > true. I doubt that most of us think verbally except when we are > composing sentences in our heads. That doesn't follow because apes that don't have language still use primitive tools and show problem solving skills. They don't NEED language to think, even if they can acquire language from humans.
BTW, the acquisition of language by apes shows the impact that an intelligent influence can have on the less intelligent.
Peter T. Daniels - 28 Dec 2009 19:05 GMT > >>>> All thinking is language dependant. > >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > BTW, the acquisition of language by apes shows the impact that an > intelligent influence can have on the less intelligent.- What ape has "acquired language"?
Ruud Harmsen - 28 Dec 2009 21:46 GMT Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:05:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>What ape has "acquired language"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Macaque s (which are monkeys, not apes) have accents: === Also in recent studies, it has been found that the Japanese Macaque can develop different accents, like humans. It was found that macaques in areas separated by only a couple hundred miles can have very different pitches in their calls, their form of communication. /===
(But no reference is mentioned.)
 Signature Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels - 28 Dec 2009 22:09 GMT > Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:05:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > (But no reference is mentioned.) That's hardly news (see also .localized calls within bird species). But what does it have to do with a monkey having language?
Peter Moylan - 28 Dec 2009 22:22 GMT > Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:05:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim@verizon.net>: in sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > different pitches in their calls, their form of communication. > /=== Many animals communicate. Monkeys and apes are special only in that they have a richer set of symbols than most other animals.
It's a question, I suppose, of how you define a language. In my opinion, once you have communication you have a language. Even if dogs had only one kind of bark, that would be a one-symbol language. (In practice, of course, we know that dogs do better than that.)
No doubt there will always be those who will claim that if it's not a _human_ language, it's not a language. If we ever meet beings more advanced than us, they might well have the same attitude towards our own grunts and squawks.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter T. Daniels - 29 Dec 2009 04:37 GMT > > Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:05:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels" > > <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > advanced than us, they might well have the same attitude towards our own > grunts and squawks. It's just like those who want to use the name "writing" for any visual communication system. You're going to need a special term for "full writing" bzw. "human language" anyway, so why not continue to use "writing" and "language" in their traditional senses, and use other terms (like "semiotic system") for the wider sets?
Marvin the Martian - 29 Dec 2009 01:27 GMT >> >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >> >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > What ape has "acquired language"? Washo, for one.
Peter T. Daniels - 29 Dec 2009 04:39 GMT > >> >>>> All thinking is language dependant. > >> >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Washo, for one.- No one was ever allowed to interact with Washoe except her own trainers, who, like the attendants of the Oracle of Delphi, carried her messages back to the observers. Signers who got to see rare unedited clips of her gestural activity reported that it was nothing like signing.
Marvin the Martian - 29 Dec 2009 06:02 GMT >> > What ape has "acquired language"? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > back to the observers. Signers who got to see rare unedited clips of her > gestural activity reported that it was nothing like signing. So, you're saying it is all fraud to get funding?
Given the AGW fraud, that wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I don't know that, though.
Peter T. Daniels - 29 Dec 2009 15:33 GMT > >> > What ape has "acquired language"? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So, you're saying it is all fraud to get funding? No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." The semiotician Thomas A. Sebeok organized a conference at the New York Academy of Sciences on that topic. At least one of the primate-"language" research teams withdrew when they found that Sebeok had invited James "The Amazing" Randi to do a presentation on illusionists. (Randi put on a great show, which had nothing to do with the question at hand, since the researchers were, and are, most sincere.)
> Given the AGW fraud, that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I don't know what that is.
> I don't know that, though. spudnik - 29 Dec 2009 21:12 GMT Randi made a big mess of the Bienveniste's homeopathy experiments, as if there is no possible scientific justification for it, or catalyzed fusion, for that matter -- just cuz he could!
Chomsky has amuzing things to say about Washo et al; I just wish that the "left" wouldn't worship him!... I mean, Noam, not Washo.
I think that "semiotics" got off on a clown shoe, when Korbyzski (sp.?) introduced his joke-language, E-prime (which is really just English as a Second Language, no formal training attained .-)
> No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." > The semiotician Thomas A. Sebeok organized a conference at the New [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the question at hand, since the researchers were, and are, most > sincere.) thus: that herring was bloodied. so, why do you need aether, to make the water fill the void, left by the ball -- you were referring to the wet stuff; eh?... as for your allegorical "photons," the dual usage of them, to show the properties of light-cum-waves that Young showed -- thereby destroying Newton's corpuscular "theory" and its exact-opposite index of refraction ... or try Descartes' bungle of Snell's law in l'OEuvre, below -- is just too many quanta to deal with, as well as teh problem of the Broglie/Bohm "guide wave" stuff; better, to look at the properties of wave-guides, as in lasers and microwave technology. but, I agree, about the splitting of the "photon" into two "photons!"
> No, Aether Displacement is not like spooky action at a distance or > anything like that. In fact, it is the opposite of that. The aether is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > measured to be the exact opposite due to conservation of momentum. No > entanglement nonsense, just conservation of momentum. thus: at least, Uncle Al has done an actual experiment, as any one can see on his webpage; some day, I'll see if I can grok it.
so, what in Hell is an "open proof?..." well, there's a lot of confusion over "inductive & deductive" mathematical proof, which are actully isomorphic: the Mathematics Magazine article even gives a formula, to convert one into another.
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=10413432 thus: yeah, tell that to Aristarchus and Gauss; while you're at the seance, be sure to ask Minkowski to retract his silly statement about phase-space -- we Wanabi electronics folks are senstiive to this, like Dayton C. Miller was, actually
anyway, I am not wont to use your particular language, which is bound to a century of Copenhagenskoolin' and Schroedinger's poor, jokey cat!
"dysplacement of aether;" is that any thing like spooky action, up-close and in EPR's face?... the Dirac sea?... you must examine, where this aether is supposed to be being dysplaced, to, or if it is as neccesary as Einstein said, at times.
as for antimatter, there is no way to dystinguish the light from it, because there is only one kind of light per Dirac: waves!... yes, one can use a "dual" formalism of "ray-tracing the photon" viz the brachistochrone, but that is of no more interest, than the dual-column proofs in projective geometry.
> 'displacement of aether' is. 'Matter curves space' is not physically > meaningful. Matter displaces the aether which would otherwise exist thus: HAMLET: Ay, marry why was he sent into England? GRAVEDIGGER: Why, because a' was mad: a' shall recover his wits there; or, if a' do not, 'tis no great matter there. HAMLET: Why? GRAVEDIGGER: Twill not be seen in him there; there the men are as mad as he. (Hamlet, V.i. 144-149)
thus: the curvature of space was "classically" proven, or empirically, by Aristarchus (with a cohort at the same longitude, different lattitude, same approx. time) and Gauss (who invented the theodolite, to do it, in a survey of (the disputed) Alsace-Lorraine for the French goment).
> Anyways, it is the 'stuff of space' which is being 'curved' by matter. > In other words, the aether is being displaced by matter. thus: Lorenz found that they were deterministic, not fuzzy, but every little bit counts; especially, when you consider the vicisitudes of the manufacture of floating-point processing-ware from the spec (IEEE-755, -855; the first is an article in Computer magazine, 1980 issue .-)
> Where weather is concerned, how wide are the possibilities > for a given day a month in the future? Somewhat rhetorical > but I'll answer that. So wide as to be useless, as > demonstrated by Lorenz. thus: garbage up; garbage back down. like I said, Minkowski couldn't take-back his spiel about phase-space.
thus: in California, primarily the gangs constitute the only militia, per the second amendment (you can look-up the case-law on that, a digest re the Constitution on Lexis-Nexis, where it is pretty clear that the "right to bear arms" includes the wearing of long-sleeved shirts; likewise, it exposes the liberal-media-owned-by-consWervatives silliness, where they always confuse "separation of church & state" with the foundational dysestablishmentarianism in A#1 -- yeah, they really, always do that, cuz TJ said the six words !-)
so, what is this remarkable Madison/Marx patrimony, that we exist under?... of course, they were contemporaries, and Marx actually supported Henry Clay, for a while, til he was subverted by The Veiled Librarian at the British Library, in London. and, here, you can look-up the past publications where this stuff was put, in *The Campaigner* magazine (it is no-longer called that, since the goment forced a bogus ch.13 bankruptcy on it, and several other Larouchiac pubs.: http://www.wlym.com/drupal/campaigners )).
> I told her about the nutter web pages that keep posting bogus gun > quotes attributed to the founders. All it takes is five seconds to thus: I didn't know that Zeeman made such an experiment, although I had read of Fizeau's (using high-pressure & -velocity water in a tube of some sort; did Z verify that?) I woulnd't put in the terms of either SR or mpc, because it's really more akin to general relativity viz-a-vu the "curvature of space" -- not of time, the big PLONK from Minkowski-THEN-he-died -- and that is what surfer's cited essay & figures dyscuss. Read it & sleep on the un-nullities of Michelson & Morley et al (small, but quite regular; and, you can say "entrainment," if you must, iff only to evoke Eisntein's gedankenspiel ... and, we'll just ignore, that "eq. (B)" was derived by Lorentz, firstly, if also from "the" theory .-)
> > > > problem of Section VI again before us. The tube plays the part of the > > > > railway embankment or of the co-ordinate system K, the liquid plays [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > flow v on the propagation of light is represented by formula (B) to > > > > within one per cent..."
> neither M&M or their successors incurred this nullity, > that proven by Einstein's say-so on DCMiller's article, at Caltech; > fig. 3, belowsville, puts these results together in one picture. now, > surfer's language may be peculiar but, so, is yours.... > http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.0039 --l'OEuvre, http://wlym.com http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2009/Relativistic_Moon.pdf FCUK Copenhagen free carbon-credit trade rip-off; put a tariff on imported energy!
spudnik - 29 Dec 2009 21:59 GMT Rice has consistently supported the illegitimate International Criminal Court's (ICC) arrest warrant for Sudanese President Bashir, issued in March 2009. Up to this point, the U.S. has refused to give up its own sovereignty to become part of the British-created imperial world government court.
Congress Throws Rice at Gration
The attacks on Gration during his testimony at the Dec. 3 hearing are the direct product of Rice's growing influence in the Obama Administration, as Obama acts more and more like a puppet of British policy. Witness Obama's behavior at the failed Copenhagen Climate Conference, in his support for the British oligarchy's demands for population reduction. Obama is also suffering the steepest loss of approval from the American population of any American President at this time in his Presidency, due to his murderous economic and health- care policies. The shift inside the Obama camp was evident in the treatment of Gration, and Gration's own inability to respond truthfully under fire. Committee chairman Payne, who continues to lead the campaign against Sudan in the Congress, invited Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) to take the point against Gration in the hearing. In a mean- spirited display of Aristotelian logic chopping, Brownback succeeded in backing Gration into a corner over allegations of "ongoing" genocide http://larouchepub.com/other/2009/3650rice_racist.html http://wlym.com/campaigner/8011.pdf -- Brits Hate Shakespeare, Why?
thus: did you ever see the electronics book, _There Are No Electrons_??... below, you are putting your "Annum Miraculum 1905" verbiage of "the photon" into the expewrimenters' mouth, when it is completely useless in the wave-front formalism of Young, Huyghens, Fizeau, Fresnel et al.
there is no vacuum for the aether to fill-up, as Pascal would or could (or did) eventually deduce from his "plenum" experiment with his what-became-a-barometer.
one neither needs Pauli's matrix/particle dual to Schroedinger's wave equation, although "one is permitted to abuse it," as a nicety for linear algebra, or Matlab, or "Mathematica" from the Wolframites
> A photon is most likely a wave propagating through the aether which when > detected collapses and is detected as a quantum of aether. > There is no 'wave-function collapse', but a physical collapse of a > directed/pointed wave.
> > > When a photon is detected, what is being detected is a quantum of > > > aether. thus: yeah, the photo-electrical effect, like when Moon hits your eye like cheese-pizza-sans-topping, the only thing that "requires" a photon -- or the "collapse of schroedinger's wave-function." or, name another phenomenon.
thus: Randi made a big mess of the Bienveniste's homeopathy experiments, as if there is no possible scientific justification for it, or catalyzed fusion, for that matter -- just cuz he could!
Chomsky has amuzing things to say about Washo et al; I just wish that the "left" wouldn't worship him!... I mean, Noam, not Washo.
I think that "semiotics" got off on a clown shoe, when Korbyzski (sp.?) introduced his joke-language, E-prime (which is really just English as a Second Language, no formal training attained .-)
> No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." > The semiotician Thomas A. Sebeok organized a conference at the New > York Academy of Sciences on that topic. At least one of the > primate-"language" research teams withdrew when they found that Sebeok > had invited James "The Amazing" Randi to do a presentation on thus: that herring was bloodied. so, why do you need aether, to make the water fill the void, left by the ball -- you were referring to the wet stuff; eh?... as for your allegorical "photons," the dual usage of them, to show the properties of light-cum-waves that Young showed -- thereby destroying Newton's corpuscular "theory" and its exact-opposite index of refraction ... or try Descartes' bungle of Snell's law in l'OEuvre, below -- is just too many quanta to deal with, as well as teh problem of the Broglie/Bohm "guide wave" stuff; better, to look at the properties of wave-guides, as in lasers and microwave technology. but, I agree, about the splitting of the "photon" into two "photons!"
> In terms of the EPR experiment and Bell's Inequality all that is > occurring when a photon is downgraded into a photon pair, is the pair > must have exact opposite momentum for there to be conservation of > momentum. Whenever you measure one of the pair, the other will be > measured to be the exact opposite due to conservation of momentum. No > entanglement nonsense, just conservation of momentum. thus: at least, Uncle Al has done an actual experiment, as any one can see on his webpage; some day, I'll see if I can grok it.
so, what in Hell is an "open proof?..." well, there's a lot of confusion over "inductive & deductive" mathematical proof, which are actully isomorphic: the Mathematics Magazine article even gives a formula, to convert one into another.
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=10413432 thus: yeah, tell that to Aristarchus and Gauss; while you're at the seance, be sure to ask Minkowski to retract his silly statement about phase-space -- we Wanabi electronics folks are senstiive to this, like Dayton C. Miller was, actually
anyway, I am not wont to use your particular language, which is bound to a century of Copenhagenskoolin' and Schroedinger's poor, jokey cat!
as for antimatter, there is no way to dystinguish the light from it, because there is only one kind of light per Dirac: waves!... yes, one can use a "dual" formalism of "ray-tracing the photon" viz the brachistochrone, but that is of no more interest, than the dual-column proofs in projective geometry.
> 'displacement of aether' is. 'Matter curves space' is not physically > meaningful. Matter displaces the aether which would otherwise exist thus: HAMLET: Ay, marry why was he sent into England? GRAVEDIGGER: Why, because a' was mad: a' shall recover his wits there; or, if a' do not, 'tis no great matter there. HAMLET: Why? GRAVEDIGGER: Twill not be seen in him there; there the men are as mad as he. (Hamlet, V.i. 144-149)
thus: the curvature of space was "classically" proven, or empirically, by Aristarchus (with a cohort at the same longitude, different lattitude, same approx. time) and Gauss (who invented the theodolite, to do it, in a survey of (the disputed) Alsace-Lorraine for the French goment).
> Anyways, it is the 'stuff of space' which is being 'curved' by matter. > In other words, the aether is being displaced by matter. thus: Lorenz found that they were deterministic, not fuzzy, but every little bit counts; especially, when you consider the vicisitudes of the manufacture of floating-point processing-ware from the spec (IEEE-755, -855; the first is an article in Computer magazine, 1980 issue .-)
> Where weather is concerned, how wide are the possibilities > for a given day a month in the future? Somewhat rhetorical > but I'll answer that. So wide as to be useless, as > demonstrated by Lorenz. thus: garbage up; garbage back down. like I said, Minkowski couldn't take-back his spiel about phase-space.
thus: in California, primarily the gangs constitute the only militia, per the second amendment (you can look-up the case-law on that, a digest re the Constitution on Lexis-Nexis, where it is pretty clear that the "right to bear arms" includes the wearing of long-sleeved shirts; likewise, it exposes the liberal-media-owned-by-consWervatives silliness, where they always confuse "separation of church & state" with the foundational dysestablishmentarianism in A#1 -- yeah, they really, always do that, cuz TJ said the six words !-)
so, what is this remarkable Madison/Marx patrimony, that we exist under?... of course, they were contemporaries, and Marx actually supported Henry Clay, for a while, til he was subverted by The Veiled Librarian at the British Library, in London. and, here, you can look-up the past publications where this stuff was put, in *The Campaigner* magazine (it is no-longer called that, since the goment forced a bogus ch.13 bankruptcy on it, and several other Larouchiac pubs.: http://www.wlym.com/drupal/campaigners )).
thus: I didn't know that Zeeman made such an experiment, although I had read of Fizeau's (using high-pressure & -velocity water in a tube of some sort; did Z verify that?) I woulnd't put in the terms of either SR or mpc, because it's really more akin to general relativity viz-a-vu the "curvature of space" -- not of time, the big PLONK from Minkowski-THEN-he-died -- and that is what surfer's cited essay & figures dyscuss. Read it & sleep on the un-nullities of Michelson & Morley et al (small, but quite regular; and, you can say "entrainment," if you must, iff only to evoke Eisntein's gedankenspiel ... and, we'll just ignore, that "eq. (B)" was derived by Lorentz, firstly, if also from "the" theory .-)
> > > > problem of Section VI again before us. The tube plays the part of the > > > > railway embankment or of the co-ordinate system K, the liquid plays [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > flow v on the propagation of light is represented by formula (B) to > > > > within one per cent..."
> neither M&M or their successors incurred this nullity, > that proven by Einstein's say-so on DCMiller's article, at Caltech; > fig. 3, belowsville, puts these results together in one picture. now, > surfer's language may be peculiar but, so, is yours.... > http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.0039 --l'OEuvre, http://wlym.com http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2009/Relativistic_Moon.pdf FCUK Copenhagen free carbon-credit trade rip-off; put a tariff on imported energy!
Wolfgang Schwanke - 30 Dec 2009 09:19 GMT >> >> > What ape has "acquired language"? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." There are several animals of different species (chimpanzees, dolphins, a grey parrot) who've been reported to have acquired various symbolic languages. By extension you're saying they are all "clever hanses"?
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António Marques - 30 Dec 2009 12:54 GMT Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:19):
>>>>>> What ape has "acquired language"? >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a grey parrot) who've been reported to have acquired various symbolic > languages. Don't forget the octopi.
> By extension you're saying they are all "clever hanses"? Well, they're certainly not 'dumb'.
Peter T. Daniels - 30 Dec 2009 15:00 GMT > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:19): > >> On Dec 29, 1:02 am, Marvin the Martian<mar...@ontomars.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> What ape has "acquired language"? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Well, they're certainly not 'dumb'.- "Clever Hans" was a horse who could do arithmetic -- his master would pose a simple question (in German, presumably) with a simple numerical answer, and he would stamp his hoof the correct number of times.
Turned out that he was responding to unconscious cues from his master, who would relax, or something, when the correct number was reached, and Hans would know to stop. Hans was no more clever than any horse who could gee or haw (turn right or left) on vocal command.
Peter T. Daniels - 30 Dec 2009 14:57 GMT > >> >> > What ape has "acquired language"? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a grey parrot) who've been reported to have acquired various symbolic > languages. By extension you're saying they are all "clever hanses"? There was only one paper about dolphin communication at the conference (the discussion after each paper was inscribed and included, so you could look it up), and I don't recall anyone ever claiming to have caused dolphins to acquire a symbolic language.
Ms. Pepperberg and her parrot were based at Northwestern U for many years, and not surprisingly got lots of attention in the Chicago press. One thing that was perfectly clear was that _no one_ was ever allowed to meet the bird.
That may have changed when she moved to a different university; there is a book by a journalist about her, which I had no interest in reading. Perhaps s/he became convinced that the parrot could speak English.
jmfbahciv - 29 Dec 2009 13:29 GMT >>>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > BTW, the acquisition of language by apes shows the impact that an > intelligent influence can have on the less intelligent. ROTFLMAO. Did you really mean this?
/BAH
Harlan Messinger - 28 Dec 2009 18:19 GMT >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > true. I doubt that most of us think verbally except when we are > composing sentences in our heads. A few chimps have been taught a few signs, therefore it follows that the thought processes of chimps in general are rooted in signs 99.999999% of them have never seen and know nothing about? No.
sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Dec 2009 23:21 GMT > >> All thinking is language dependant. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Since chimps have no language, how is it that they think? Ergo, not >all< > thinking is language dependent. I believe that "since chimps have no language" is at least one place that your argument falls apart, though I'm inclined to agree that the original assertion is incorrect.
Peter T. Daniels - 28 Dec 2009 03:16 GMT On Dec 27, 6:21 pm, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> All thinking is language dependant. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that your argument falls apart, though I'm inclined to agree that the > original assertion is incorrect. What's your evidence for chimpanzee language?
sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 28 Dec 2009 11:47 GMT > On Dec 27, 6:21 pm, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > What's your evidence for chimpanzee language? I said "I believe" for good reason; it's not (yet) provable. But each year more is learned about the sophistication of chimpanzee communications. Strictly on the vocal level, they have a series of deferential pant-barks and pant-grunts used when approaching superiors, personally distinctive pant-hoots used as food calls and (with differing intonation) as loud, aggressive dominance calls, calls used as alarms or during copulation, etc. They also have a series of gestures ranging from begging for food by presenting open hands, kneeling and showing open hands in deference, signs indicating they wish to be scratched, etc.
Many of these are passed down from one generation to the next-- beginning at a very young age, a baby chimp will use its mother's deferential barks and grunts when approaching a dominant male.
We've not deciphered all that's going on, but PET scans certainly indicate that during times that appear "communicative" they sow a lot of activity in parts of the brain associated with language in humans (e.g. Broca's area and Wernicke's area), while when engaged in non-"linguistic" problem solving those areas aren't particularly active.
Back on the original question, Chomsky held that language shapes all thought and that chimps are incapable of language; to me, those statements are mutually inconsistent unless you believe that chimps are incapable of any level of thought (an assertion that I find patently ridiculous). That does not, of course, require that you accept that chimps are linguistically competent; you could resolve the inconsistency equally well by rejecting the hypothesis that language shapes all thought.
Peter T. Daniels - 28 Dec 2009 12:39 GMT On Dec 28, 6:47 am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Back on the original question, Chomsky held that language shapes all I'll ask again. Where did Chomsky "hold" that?
> thought and that chimps are incapable of language; to me, those > statements are mutually inconsistent unless you believe that chimps [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inconsistency equally well by rejecting the hypothesis that language > shapes all thought.- A good start would be to produce the actual wording of the alleged hypothesis.
Marvin the Martian - 29 Dec 2009 01:30 GMT >> >> All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that your argument falls apart, though I'm inclined to agree that the > original assertion is incorrect. What languages are common among chimps?
Adam Funk - 29 Dec 2009 20:57 GMT >>> The rebuttal to Chomsky's assertion that thinking is language dependent >>> is simple: Observe how a chimpanzee has an ability to reason that is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What languages are common among chimps? Chimpanzese?
What was _Me Cheeta_ translated from?
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Matthew L. Martin - 30 Dec 2009 00:10 GMT >>>> The rebuttal to Chomsky's assertion that thinking is language dependent >>>> is simple: Observe how a chimpanzee has an ability to reason that is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Chimpanzatian? IFYPFY.
Matthew
 Signature I have two and 1/3 granddaughters:
Alex will find a way to silently get from where she is to where she wants to be. Anna will make an Anna sized hole between where she is to where she wants to be.
chazwin - 28 Dec 2009 10:20 GMT > > All thinking is language dependant. > > I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're > hungry isn't thinking. Being hungry is not the same as realising the feeling and giving a name to it. That requires thinking and thinking is structured by language.
> -- > > Rob Bannister John Holmes - 28 Dec 2009 10:39 GMT [have had to drop alt.philosophy because my news server hasn't heard of it]
>>> All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > name to it. That requires thinking and thinking is structured by > language. Giving a name to it is not the same as being hungry and realising what the feeling is.
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Chuck Riggs - 28 Dec 2009 13:43 GMT >> > All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >name to it. That requires thinking and thinking is structured by >language. Give yourself a slap in the face, then. You don't need to know the words "face", "slap" and "pain" to have a sore cheek.
The several cross-posted groups were omitted from this post.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Ian Dalziel - 28 Dec 2009 13:53 GMT >>> > All thinking is language dependant. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Give yourself a slap in the face, then. You don't need to know the >words "face", "slap" and "pain" to have a sore cheek. No, but in order to know that it's the same as the slap I'm about to give you, you have to employ abstract classification. Whether or not that has to be verbal is a different kettle of worms.
 Signature Ian D
Chuck Riggs - 29 Dec 2009 12:24 GMT >>>> > All thinking is language dependant. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >give you, you have to employ abstract classification. Whether or not >that has to be verbal is a different kettle of worms. It is. A pair of pictures in my mind might be enough. It has been so long since I've thought in pictures, I don't know for sure.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Robert Bannister - 28 Dec 2009 23:12 GMT >>> All thinking is language dependant. >> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > name to it. That requires thinking and thinking is structured by > language. You appear to be saying that the only brain activity that can be called "thinking" is that which involves language. This appears to be a circular argument to me. Thinking may sometimes be verbal, but most of the time it is not, because it goes much, much quicker without words.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Wolfgang Schwanke - 30 Dec 2009 09:22 GMT chazwin <chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote in news:f9d1f79c-601a-4e34-90cf- c34bf9a7607f@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
>> > All thinking is language dependant. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > name to it. That requires thinking and thinking is structured by > language. How about realising the feeling and not giving a name to it?
It has been mentioned in this thread before: Most people probably have experienced that they had an idea but were momentarily unable to express it in words. That pretty much proves that thought can occur without expressing it in language.
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António Marques - 30 Dec 2009 12:57 GMT Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:22):
> chazwin<chazwyman@yahoo.com> wrote > in news:f9d1f79c-601a-4e34-90cf- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > express it in words. That pretty much proves that thought can occur > without expressing it in language. I could never understand the thought ~ language thing. Why the need to associate the two in the first place? On a related note, am I the only one able to read/write without mentally hearing/speaking?
Peter T. Daniels - 30 Dec 2009 15:05 GMT > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:22): > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > On a related note, am I the only one able to read/write without mentally > hearing/speaking?- I'm beginning to think that many, even most, people who don't have any reason to do much reading but are literate _don't_ simply assimilate a written text into comprehended language -- don't, for instance, glance at an advertising poster and immediately know what it's selling and what the slogan is -- but do have to interpret it word or phrase by word or phrase. Psycholinguists may have already discovered this, but since the usual pool of (non-impaired) psycholinguistic experimental subjects is college students, the pool is less likely to include that kind of reader. I wonder whether they could get access to pools of junior-college students, a quickly growing population ...
M Purcell - 30 Dec 2009 15:34 GMT > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:22): > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > On a related note, am I the only one able to read/write without mentally > hearing/speaking? I believe both result from an effort to communicate with other people.
jmfbahciv - 27 Dec 2009 13:15 GMT >>> The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically >>> ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > All thinking is language dependant. No.
/BAH
Dennis - 27 Dec 2009 05:43 GMT > The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > long tradition of use, was at least suitable for scientific and > technical purposes as any other language at the time. Is it really true that international understanding is more important here than elsewhere? ISTM you're right but I wonder.
In English and other languages a lot of scientific vocabulary is drawn from Latin, though somewhat less in German, which has been a pre- eminent language of science.
I think Peter Daniels is right, you can express the ideas of science in any language, though historically a lot of scientific vocabulary has Latin/Greek roots, with the exceptions noted.
> And so, some explanations suggest themselves. The first is that the > predominant advocates and defenders of Latin, from the Renaissance to > now, are from the humanities; and so once Latin had disappeared from > live literary use, their support was no longer important. I think it's the other way around; people in the humanities are the ones who adopted national languages!
I'm trying to think of examples of scientific works in Latin. Newton and Leibnitz wrote in Latin, of course, but Descartes did his work in French, and Galileo in Italian. I think somewhat Swedenborg wrote scientific works in Latin, but he was probably the very last one.
> The second > is to blame it on the French: they abandoned Latin earlier than anyone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have started writing in French, and if they had wanted to oppose them, > they should have re-emphasised the role of Latin. More likely the explanation lies in the history of the development of science, and the groups that supported it, such as the British Academy of Sciences. It may simply be that the use of Latin was too far gone in general by the time experimental science really got going, in the 1700's. I don't know enough to comment further.
Dennis
Andrew Usher - 27 Dec 2009 13:27 GMT > In English and other languages a lot of scientific vocabulary is > drawn from Latin, though somewhat less in German, which has been a pre- > eminent language of science. English may be the most Latinate of all the modern languages, actually.
> I think Peter Daniels is right, you can express the ideas of > science in any language, though historically a lot of scientific > vocabulary has Latin/Greek roots, with the exceptions noted. Well, if you work hard enough. Languages that don't have a history of intellectual use would be extremely hard to use for science without borrowing a lot of words and senses.
> > And so, some explanations suggest themselves. The first is that the > > predominant advocates and defenders of Latin, from the Renaissance to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think it's the other way around; people in the humanities are the > ones who adopted national languages! For literature, yes. But they have always promoted the teaching of Latin in schools, and until recently, insisted that all students should learn this language which they'd probably never need again. I'm saying that they were not inclined to intervene to support Latin after it was no longer used for new literature (which happened in the 17c.).
> I'm trying to think of examples of scientific works in Latin. > Newton and Leibnitz wrote in Latin, of course, but Descartes did his work > in French, and Galileo in Italian. They wrote in Latin also, and their vernacular works were also translated into Latin. Obvious later examples are the mathematicians Euler and Gauss, and also Linnaeus's taxonomy. Peter Daniels mentioned a linguistic work from 1837. Almost all important works before 1660 were Latin in any case.
> I think somewhat Swedenborg wrote > scientific works in Latin, but he was probably the very last one. I don't think of Swedenborg as a scientist, but yes, you're right.
> > The second > > is to blame it on the French: they abandoned Latin earlier than anyone [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > general by the time experimental science really got going, in the 1700's. > I don't know enough to comment further. Do you mean the Royal Society? Yes, they worked in English from the beginning and the Phil. Trans. was always mostly English. But that didn't stop Newton from using Latin for his major work, because it hardly affected the international comprehension of English.
Andrew Usher
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