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Verb-adverb inversion question (He's long gone, etc.)

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braininvat - 25 Dec 2009 01:26 GMT
Hi:

I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can
precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs
selected by certain auxiliaries or with negation.)

We'll be _long_ gone at that time.
I don't _much_ care for his tone.
An unprotected human would not _long_ survive in the clutches of outer
space.

The following sentences are bad (I think):

*He has long left.
*I much like the book.
*He will long survive.

Can anyone enlighten me if grammar books have talked about this? Is
there a name or theory of these word order facts? Or do you have a
theory about what's going on here?

Thank you very much in advance and have a nice holiday

Braininvat
Chuck Riggs - 25 Dec 2009 15:44 GMT
>Hi:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Braininvat

Such stilted sentences are sometimes used, even today, when an author
is striving for elegance of expression.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Don Phillipson - 25 Dec 2009 18:10 GMT
> I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can
> precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> *I much like the book.
> *He will long survive.

The scarcity of constructive rules in English (viz. lack of
rules that prescribe how we must say something) means
we can use word order for emphasis.  In cases 2 and 3
above MUCH and LONG are thus placed for emphasis.
They are valid sentences.   Case 1 might well be used
as the first or last phrase in a longer compound sentence.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

John Holmes - 26 Dec 2009 01:23 GMT
>> The following sentences are bad (I think):
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> They are valid sentences.   Case 1 might well be used
> as the first or last phrase in a longer compound sentence.

I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has
long gone" would be perfectly natural.

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Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Jeffrey Turner - 26 Dec 2009 16:31 GMT
>>> The following sentences are bad (I think):
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has
> long gone" would be perfectly natural.

"That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction.

--Jeff

Signature

The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire

R H Draney - 26 Dec 2009 19:21 GMT
Jeffrey Turner filted:

>>>> The following sentences are bad (I think):
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>"That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction.

"At long last, sir, have you left no sense of decency?"

....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Roland Hutchinson - 01 Jan 2010 03:49 GMT
>>>> The following sentences are bad (I think):
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> "That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction.

I would prefer "long since" to "long" in that saying.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 01:18 GMT
>>> The following sentences are bad (I think):
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has
> long gone" would be perfectly natural.

I prefer "He is long gone".

Signature

Rob Bannister

Eric Walker - 27 Dec 2009 02:06 GMT
Re "He has long gone":

> I prefer "He is long gone".

I, too, and the history of that preference is (I think) interesting.  
What is today the present perfect tense evolved out of a true present
form.  As an example: "I have the letter written," meaning "I have the
letter in a written state"--wherein "written" was a participle in an
objective-predicate construction (and can still be so used in the exact
form quoted)--evolved (via "I have [in] written [form] the letter") to "I
have written the letter".  And the same sort of evolution occurred with
past forms, giving the past perfect.  But, for whatever reason,
intransitive verbs were notably slower to acquire the new form, and so
were often rendered as simple present or past with "be" as the auxiliary:
the tree is fallen, the tree was fallen.  That lasted at least into
Shakespeare's time, as in "the King himself is rode to view their battle."

Today, the form still persists, most especially when the participle has
an adjectival look: My money *is* all *gone*; Our dear friend *is* long
*departed* [deceased]; The police raided the place, but the birds *were*
all *flown*; We *are assembled* today to debate crucial matters; &c &c  
The parallels to the subject form are clear.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

braininvat - 27 Dec 2009 22:08 GMT
> Re "He has long gone":
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Cordially,
> Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/

Thank you for your kind replies. I guess long+V, much+V, are kind of
special or idiomatic constructions. They are special in several ways:

1. In this Adv+V construction, the adverb is typically stressed.
2. Not all verbs perfectly occur in this construction. ("They have
long kissed" and "they will not long kiss" are bad, right?)
3. Not all adverbs occur in this construction (perhaps only _long_ and
_much_ do).

Am I right? (I'm not a native speaker) Any more thoughts? Thank you.

best,
Braininvat
Eric Walker - 28 Dec 2009 00:02 GMT
[...]

> I guess long+V, much+V, are kind of special or idiomatic constructions.
> They are special in several ways:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Am I right? (I'm not a native speaker) Any more thoughts? Thank you.

First, you need to distinguish between "long" in its ordinary sense of
"extended" or "lengthy" and "long" as elliptical for "long since",
meaning (as you might guess) since a long time ago.  The difference is
not vast, but subtleties are the stuff of language.

 1. "They have long kissed" would signify that they have been kissing
 for a long time now.

 2. "They have long since kissed" means that they have kissed, and first
 did so a long time ago.

The distinction is that in #1 there is a sense that they have been
kissing (continually, of course, not continuously) throughout the
interval described by "long"; in #2 they may also have, but it is not
necessarily implied by the form of the sentence.  Putting it another way,
#2 refers to a point in time, an event (possibly repeated, but not
necessarily repeated).  Compare:

 The proof has long been available to all.

 The proof has long since been made available to all.

The former describes a state continuing over an interval; the latter
describes an event--the making available--as having taken place some
while back.

Now, as to your #1, "In this Adv+V construction, the adverb is typically
stressed": an adverb following a verb is typically stressed, and that is
why that position marks the "true" adverb, one that directly modifies the
sense of the verb; an adverb preceding a verb is usually less stressed,
which is why that (and other even less close positioning) marks the
"sentence adverb".  Compare:

 1. He went quickly to the door.

 2. He quickly went to the door.

In #1, spoken stress naturally falls on "quickly"; in #2, it tends to
fall on "went".

As to your #2, "Not all verbs perfectly occur in this construction.
("They have long kissed" and "they will not long kiss" are bad, right?)":
no, they are not bad.  The first means that there is a long period of
time running through the present during which they have been kissing; the
second expresses a doubt that some present state of kissing (by
implication, frequent kissing) will not endure.

Consider the bare, un-adverbed statements:

 They have kissed.
 They will kiss.

If we put the adverb "long" after the verb, seeking to directly modify
it, we would get:

 They have kissed long.
 They will kiss long.

Neither of those means what is--presumably--meant, in that by directly
modifying the verb, the adverb makes the bare act of kissing seem
extended, implying that the couple has been (or will be) in a single,
long-term smooch for seconds or even minutes.  If we move the adverb, so
that it instead becomes a sentence adverb, which modifies the whole of
the thought expressed by the clause, we get:

 They have long kissed.
 They will long kiss.

Now the lengthiness applies to what the entire thought described, so that
we understand that "they have kissed" is what has occurred over a long
time, not the actual kiss itself.

As to #3, "Not all adverbs occur in this construction (perhaps only
_long_ and _much_ do)"; no.  Adverbs used as sentence adverbs--or, as I
idiosyncratically like to call them, "adclausals"--are marked out as such
by appearing anywhere _except_ directly after the verb (as directly as
possible, that is, since a direct object, if present, will intervene);
but that does not mean that any adclausals can appear anywhere.  Most are
comfortable in at least three positions: directly before the verb,
opening the sentence, or closing the sentence:

 He anxiously awaited the committee's decision.
 Anxiously he awaited the committee's decision.
 He awaited the committee's decision anxiously.

But a few, including "much", are idiomatically uncomfortable in one or
another of those positions:

 I don't much care for his tone.  [normal]
 I don't care for his tone much.  [unusual but acceptable]
 Much, I don't care for his tone. [not idiomatically possible]

This and a lot more was set forth in a long post that is earlier than
this one but farther down in the thread (posted Saturday 6 December @
0:01:46 UTC).

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

braininvat - 28 Dec 2009 21:05 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
> Cordially,
> Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/

Yes. I read your early post too and I more or less got your point
about true adverbs and adclausals. However, I still feel much/long-V
is a special construction. This should be clear by examining the
contrast between:

1 I don't much like his tone.
2 They have long kissed.

3 They quickly ran away.
4 She slowly walked away.

1,2 and 3,4 are different, because adverbs in 1,2 are typically
stressed, but not so in 3,4, if what I've conjectured is right. So, in
your terms, while in 3,4 we have ad-clausals, in 1,2, we still seem to
have true adverbs.

Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following
sentences are good:

1 John has long kissed Mary.
2 I will long remember this day.

Thanks again!

Braininvat
Peter Moylan - 28 Dec 2009 22:26 GMT
> Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following
> sentences are good:
>
> 1 John has long kissed Mary.
> 2 I will long remember this day.

The second example is good. The first sounds unnatural to me.

"John has long known Mary" is natural.  Aha!  I see what was bothering
me. Your first example seems to imply a kiss of a duration that I've
never experienced.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Eric Walker - 28 Dec 2009 23:14 GMT
[...]

> However, I still feel much/long-V is a special construction. This
> should be clear by examining the contrast between:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> your terms, while in 3,4 we have ad-clausals, in 1,2, we still seem to
> have true adverbs.

Case #1 demonstrates why the "do-form" evolved: it allows adverbs that
really apply to "like" to apply instead to the "dummy" verb "do", so that
they can follow it, be "true adverbs", and thus receive the stress of the
sentence.  In Case #2, the adverb, from its placement, is a "adclausal"
sentence adverb, modifying the thought entire; the stress in the spoken
sentence will fall naturally on the verb, and I am unclear why you think
it is the adverb that would be stressed.  Obviously, one can, with
intent, place stress wherever one wants, but the natural fall would be on
the word "kissed".

(I am reminded of a scene in an old movie comedy wherein an elderly woman
has a part in an amateur dramatic presentation, and spends ages
rehearsing her part--which consists entirely of the four words "Here
comes the prince."  She is seen endlessly trying one set of inflections
after another.)


> Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following
> sentences are good:
>
> 1 John has long kissed Mary.
> 2 I will long remember this day.

Yes.  In #1, the adverb, as a "sentence adverb", modifies the thought
entire; were it placed after the verb (and object), so as to directly
modify that verb, it would imply the comically lengthy osculation
mentioned elsewhere.  A context for that exact sentence takes a little
imagination, but something like this might do:

 "I wonder if John has ever kissed Mary."
 "Oh, indeed.  John has long kissed Mary."

Not very likely or natural, but possible.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Chih-hsiang Shu - 29 Dec 2009 14:17 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> Cordially,
> Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/

Hmm.. I see what you were saying. Still, I feel the following contrast
shows something other than 'do-form evolution' is involved:

1. John much hates the book.
2. John quickly finished his work.

There is no 'do' here, but stress behaves differently in 1 and 2,
right? So, it seems even without 'do', _much_ can be a 'true adverb'
here. The adverb _long_ is perhaps different.

Thanks.
Braininvat
Eric Walker - 29 Dec 2009 23:23 GMT
> . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form
> evolution' is involved:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> There is no 'do' here, but stress behaves differently in 1 and 2,
> right? . . .

Perhaps we need a poll here, because to my ear the stress still falls on
the verbs, "hates" and "finished".  It's not a heavy stress, but such as
there is, that's where I feel it.

Do others hear it else?

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Peter Moylan - 30 Dec 2009 10:00 GMT
>> . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form
>> evolution' is involved:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Do others hear it else?

My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine
any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book".

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Eric Walker - 30 Dec 2009 10:54 GMT
[...]

> My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine
> any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book".

Forms with an adverb are quite common: "Tucker Carlson Still Very Much
Hates Jon Stewart"; "Claire Danes Pretty Much Hates Brooklyn"; and so on
(all from Google's first few responses on <"much likes" OR much hates">.  
Many phrases usually given with a qualifier can sound a tad unusual when
given bare ("a deal of trouble"), but unusual is neither automatically
rare or unidiomatic.  Forms with "like" instead of hate are fairly common:

 Sounds to me like nobody much likes Mark.
 Nobody much likes the EU constitution.
 No one much likes living in Buckingham Palace.
 No one much likes to talk about it out loud, but everyone knows it's
  true.
 The problem with Christmas is that no one much likes it anymore.

But "hate" is there, too, if--as stipulated--less often (all via Google):

 So now I am friends with the person my ex much hates.
 You should not practise lechery, for a knight should cherish his body
   and keep it pure so that he does not incur shame therefrom, for God
   much hates suchlike filth.  (English translation of "Le Roman des
   Eles")
 She basically much hates every minute of it.
 His Lordship is mercifull to all Protestants though he much hates a
   coward.  (Lord Inchiquin, letter, 1642)

Finding samples would be a lot easier if one, Google would acknowledge
punctuation, at least within quoted search terms, and two, there weren't
so very many instances of the--to me--shocking use of the phrase "much
hates" for (or so it seems from context) "many hatreds".

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Chih-hsiang Shu - 30 Dec 2009 15:19 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Cordially,
> Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/

It seems _much like_ or _much hate_ generally need to occur in
negation or
some kind of subordinate clause to sound natural. And _quickly eat/
finish/leave_ does not
have this requirement. Just an general observation.

Braininvat
Robert Bannister - 30 Dec 2009 23:07 GMT
>>> . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form
>>> evolution' is involved:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine
> any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book".

But (as someone pointed out earlier), if you add "very", it doesn't
sound nearly as weird.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Chih-hsiang Shu - 30 Dec 2009 15:06 GMT
> > . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form
> > evolution' is involved:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Cordially,
> Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/

It's not my intention to push the issue too much here, since I guess
this is not a forum for detailed linguistic analyses,
but there is another contrast that is relevant too. With _much_ and
_long_ in negative contexts, it is natural to have
Adv+V word order, but this is not the case with other adverbs.
Consider:

John doesn't much like the idea.
He didn't long survive after that accident.

John didn't quickly finish his assignment.
John didn't loudly speak.

I kind of feel the first two are more idiomatic/natural than the last
two, even if we don't think about stress. So _much_ and _long_ are
kind of special.

Braininvat
Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 23:42 GMT
> Re "He has long gone":
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> all *flown*; We *are assembled* today to debate crucial matters; &c &c  
> The parallels to the subject form are clear.

Thank you. I hadn't spotted the fact that the participles have the
appearance of adjectives, but now you've mentioned it, it is clear.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Eric Walker - 26 Dec 2009 02:01 GMT
> I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can
> precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> there a name or theory of these word order facts? Or do you have a
> theory about what's going on here?

The "adverb" being, as one scholar has put, the dustbin of grammar, there
are in fact three distinct parts of speech wrapped up in that one term.  
Let's look at them.

A "true" adverb (that is non-standard terminology), is one that acts to
directly modulate the sense of the associated verb; it follows the verb
immediately (or as closely as possible, meaning after any intervening
direct object):

  He ran fast.
  She threw the ball hard.

In older English, the negating adverb "not" followed that rule and
appeared after the verb (or direct object):

  I think not so.
  I like it not.

Besides the "true" adverb there is what is usually called a "sentence
adverb",  That term is standard terminology but misleading, in that it
modifies a clause: though a clause can be an entire sentence, it can also
be just a part of a sentence, and I prefer the non-standard term
"adclausal".  An adclausal modulates not the sense of the verb but of the
entire associated clause (which is to say an entire thought).  Adclausals
are marked by being placed anywhere *except* where a "true" adverb would
go--typically just before the verb, but also often at the start or end of
the clause.  Consider:

  1. Quickly, he spoke to his audience.
  2. He quickly spoke to his audience.
  3. He spoke quickly to his audience.
  4. He spoke to his audience quickly.

In #1 and #2--where, by its placement, "quickly" is an adclausal--it is
clear that the quickness refers to with what delay (or, in fact, lack of
delay) the subject began his speaking.

In #3--where, by its placement, "quickly" is a true adverb--it is fairly
clear that it refers to the manner of his speech, suggesting he was
rushing his words.

In #4, it may not be immediately clear which is meant, because the adverb
comes at sentence's end; but it is separated from the verb only by "to
his audience", which is in fact a dative clause (with "to" as an
inflectional particle) acting as a noun, so the effect is the same as an
intervening direct object ("He threw the ball quickly"), meaning the word
is a true adverb.  Thus, in #4 the adverb is also a true adverb, even
though by coincidence it ends the sentence (Just as in "He threw the ball
quickly").

The reason those placement habits evolved is the way stress in speech
normally falls: a true adverb naturally tends to receive stress from its
placement, whereas a sentence adverb naturally tends to be lightly
stressed.

It is owing to those factors that the so-called "do-form" of verbs
evolved, allowing greater flexibility of emphasis in speech:

  I *do* care about you.  [positive emphasis]
  I *do not* think so.    [negative emphasis]

With "do" carrying verbal force, the adverbs can follow it and receive
the intended emphasis.

The third sort of modifier called "adverb" is a word that modulates the
sense of an adjective or other adverb; adverbs of that sort always
precede the modifier they are further modulating:

  He was an *impressively* _tall_ man.
  She ran *very* _fast_.

Now let's look at the subject sentences:

 We'll be long gone at that time.

"Long" is a modulating adverb modifying "gone" and so precedes it.  (In
reality, the form is elliptical for "long since gone".)

 I don't much care for his tone.

"Much" is here an adclausal; it is modulating the effect or force of the
whole thought in the bare clause "I don't care for his tone".  While a
sentence adverb can usually be put in one of several places--just before
the verb, at the beginning of the sentence, or at the end of the
sentence--idiomatically not always are all three slots available for a
given adverb.

 I don't much care for his tone.  [normal]
 I don't care for his tone much.  [unusual but acceptable]
 Much, I don't care for his tone. [not idiomatically possible]

On the other hand, all of these pass muster:

 He anxiously awaited the committee's decision.
 Anxiously he awaited the committee's decision.
 He awaited the committee's decision anxiously.

Note that whether an adverb is modifying the sense of a particular verb
or of the entire thought/clause containing that verb--especially when the
clause is quite simple in form--is often a subtle distinction, which the
position helps us interpret.

 1. He went quickly to the door.
 2. He quickly went to the door.

In #1, the quickness very definitely applies to his going, implying that
he was walking rapidly or even running.  In #2, there is a slight shift
of emphasis such that the quickness applies entire act: the quickness is
in his deciding to go to the door and the initiation of the process of
going there.  Indeed, while it would be a bizarre form indeed, in the
right context it would not be grammatically or even logically impossible
to say "He quickly walked slowly to the door."  (When the buzzer sounded,
he anxiously hopped up out of his chair and began moving, but, being
reluctant to face his visitor, put off the moment by walking slowly.)

 An unprotected human would not long survive in the clutches of outer
  space.

As with "do-forms", the adverb is a true adverb modifying the preceding
verb form.

 He has long left.

With the fuller form used, acceptable: "He has long since left."  As
originally given it is unacceptable owing to its possible confusion with
the sense "he has a lot of time yet to go" (and is in any event
infelicitous even for that sense).

(If one considers the alternative true-adjective form, "He has left long
since", the question arises--as it often does when we consider using an
adverb as a clausal adverb or as a true adverb--of what exact *method* of
"long since" departing might distinguish it from any other form of
departing.  A good many adverbs carelessly used as true adverbs have more
logic when used as sentence (clausal) adverbs.)

 I much like the book.

Quite acceptable.  "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to
positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb,
it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like swimming
very much.")

 He will long survive.

Same case as the unprotected human in space.  It's a somewhat unusual
form, but nothing wrong with it.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Jeffrey Turner - 26 Dec 2009 16:53 GMT
>   I much like the book.
>
> Quite acceptable.  "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to
> positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb,
> it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like swimming
> very much.")

Do you like swimming much?

--Jeff

Signature

The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire

Eric Walker - 27 Dec 2009 01:17 GMT
[...]

>> Quite acceptable.  "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to
>> positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb,
>> it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like
>> swimming very much.")
>
> Do you like swimming much?

Would "Yes, I like swimming much" strike you as a reasonable answer?  
Interrogative forms often differ from the declarative by more than mere
word order.  But that very point is worth mentioning in this case.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

 
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