Verb-adverb inversion question (He's long gone, etc.)
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braininvat - 25 Dec 2009 01:26 GMT Hi:
I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs selected by certain auxiliaries or with negation.)
We'll be _long_ gone at that time. I don't _much_ care for his tone. An unprotected human would not _long_ survive in the clutches of outer space.
The following sentences are bad (I think):
*He has long left. *I much like the book. *He will long survive.
Can anyone enlighten me if grammar books have talked about this? Is there a name or theory of these word order facts? Or do you have a theory about what's going on here?
Thank you very much in advance and have a nice holiday
Braininvat
Chuck Riggs - 25 Dec 2009 15:44 GMT >Hi: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Braininvat Such stilted sentences are sometimes used, even today, when an author is striving for elegance of expression.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Don Phillipson - 25 Dec 2009 18:10 GMT > I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can > precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > *I much like the book. > *He will long survive. The scarcity of constructive rules in English (viz. lack of rules that prescribe how we must say something) means we can use word order for emphasis. In cases 2 and 3 above MUCH and LONG are thus placed for emphasis. They are valid sentences. Case 1 might well be used as the first or last phrase in a longer compound sentence.
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
John Holmes - 26 Dec 2009 01:23 GMT >> The following sentences are bad (I think): >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They are valid sentences. Case 1 might well be used > as the first or last phrase in a longer compound sentence. I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has long gone" would be perfectly natural.
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Jeffrey Turner - 26 Dec 2009 16:31 GMT >>> The following sentences are bad (I think): >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has > long gone" would be perfectly natural. "That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction.
--Jeff
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R H Draney - 26 Dec 2009 19:21 GMT Jeffrey Turner filted:
>>>> The following sentences are bad (I think): >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >"That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction. "At long last, sir, have you left no sense of decency?"
....r
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Roland Hutchinson - 01 Jan 2010 03:49 GMT >>>> The following sentences are bad (I think): >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > "That horse has long left the barn" isn't an unusual construction. I would prefer "long since" to "long" in that saying.
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Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 01:18 GMT >>> The following sentences are bad (I think): >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I can't imagine many people saying the first one as written, but "He has > long gone" would be perfectly natural. I prefer "He is long gone".
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Eric Walker - 27 Dec 2009 02:06 GMT Re "He has long gone":
> I prefer "He is long gone". I, too, and the history of that preference is (I think) interesting. What is today the present perfect tense evolved out of a true present form. As an example: "I have the letter written," meaning "I have the letter in a written state"--wherein "written" was a participle in an objective-predicate construction (and can still be so used in the exact form quoted)--evolved (via "I have [in] written [form] the letter") to "I have written the letter". And the same sort of evolution occurred with past forms, giving the past perfect. But, for whatever reason, intransitive verbs were notably slower to acquire the new form, and so were often rendered as simple present or past with "be" as the auxiliary: the tree is fallen, the tree was fallen. That lasted at least into Shakespeare's time, as in "the King himself is rode to view their battle."
Today, the form still persists, most especially when the participle has an adjectival look: My money *is* all *gone*; Our dear friend *is* long *departed* [deceased]; The police raided the place, but the birds *were* all *flown*; We *are assembled* today to debate crucial matters; &c &c The parallels to the subject form are clear.
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braininvat - 27 Dec 2009 22:08 GMT > Re "He has long gone": > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ Thank you for your kind replies. I guess long+V, much+V, are kind of special or idiomatic constructions. They are special in several ways:
1. In this Adv+V construction, the adverb is typically stressed. 2. Not all verbs perfectly occur in this construction. ("They have long kissed" and "they will not long kiss" are bad, right?) 3. Not all adverbs occur in this construction (perhaps only _long_ and _much_ do).
Am I right? (I'm not a native speaker) Any more thoughts? Thank you.
best, Braininvat
Eric Walker - 28 Dec 2009 00:02 GMT [...]
> I guess long+V, much+V, are kind of special or idiomatic constructions. > They are special in several ways: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Am I right? (I'm not a native speaker) Any more thoughts? Thank you. First, you need to distinguish between "long" in its ordinary sense of "extended" or "lengthy" and "long" as elliptical for "long since", meaning (as you might guess) since a long time ago. The difference is not vast, but subtleties are the stuff of language.
1. "They have long kissed" would signify that they have been kissing for a long time now.
2. "They have long since kissed" means that they have kissed, and first did so a long time ago.
The distinction is that in #1 there is a sense that they have been kissing (continually, of course, not continuously) throughout the interval described by "long"; in #2 they may also have, but it is not necessarily implied by the form of the sentence. Putting it another way, #2 refers to a point in time, an event (possibly repeated, but not necessarily repeated). Compare:
The proof has long been available to all.
The proof has long since been made available to all.
The former describes a state continuing over an interval; the latter describes an event--the making available--as having taken place some while back.
Now, as to your #1, "In this Adv+V construction, the adverb is typically stressed": an adverb following a verb is typically stressed, and that is why that position marks the "true" adverb, one that directly modifies the sense of the verb; an adverb preceding a verb is usually less stressed, which is why that (and other even less close positioning) marks the "sentence adverb". Compare:
1. He went quickly to the door.
2. He quickly went to the door.
In #1, spoken stress naturally falls on "quickly"; in #2, it tends to fall on "went".
As to your #2, "Not all verbs perfectly occur in this construction. ("They have long kissed" and "they will not long kiss" are bad, right?)": no, they are not bad. The first means that there is a long period of time running through the present during which they have been kissing; the second expresses a doubt that some present state of kissing (by implication, frequent kissing) will not endure.
Consider the bare, un-adverbed statements:
They have kissed. They will kiss.
If we put the adverb "long" after the verb, seeking to directly modify it, we would get:
They have kissed long. They will kiss long.
Neither of those means what is--presumably--meant, in that by directly modifying the verb, the adverb makes the bare act of kissing seem extended, implying that the couple has been (or will be) in a single, long-term smooch for seconds or even minutes. If we move the adverb, so that it instead becomes a sentence adverb, which modifies the whole of the thought expressed by the clause, we get:
They have long kissed. They will long kiss.
Now the lengthiness applies to what the entire thought described, so that we understand that "they have kissed" is what has occurred over a long time, not the actual kiss itself.
As to #3, "Not all adverbs occur in this construction (perhaps only _long_ and _much_ do)"; no. Adverbs used as sentence adverbs--or, as I idiosyncratically like to call them, "adclausals"--are marked out as such by appearing anywhere _except_ directly after the verb (as directly as possible, that is, since a direct object, if present, will intervene); but that does not mean that any adclausals can appear anywhere. Most are comfortable in at least three positions: directly before the verb, opening the sentence, or closing the sentence:
He anxiously awaited the committee's decision. Anxiously he awaited the committee's decision. He awaited the committee's decision anxiously.
But a few, including "much", are idiomatically uncomfortable in one or another of those positions:
I don't much care for his tone. [normal] I don't care for his tone much. [unusual but acceptable] Much, I don't care for his tone. [not idiomatically possible]
This and a lot more was set forth in a long post that is earlier than this one but farther down in the thread (posted Saturday 6 December @ 0:01:46 UTC).
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braininvat - 28 Dec 2009 21:05 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ Yes. I read your early post too and I more or less got your point about true adverbs and adclausals. However, I still feel much/long-V is a special construction. This should be clear by examining the contrast between:
1 I don't much like his tone. 2 They have long kissed.
3 They quickly ran away. 4 She slowly walked away.
1,2 and 3,4 are different, because adverbs in 1,2 are typically stressed, but not so in 3,4, if what I've conjectured is right. So, in your terms, while in 3,4 we have ad-clausals, in 1,2, we still seem to have true adverbs.
Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following sentences are good:
1 John has long kissed Mary. 2 I will long remember this day.
Thanks again!
Braininvat
Peter Moylan - 28 Dec 2009 22:26 GMT > Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following > sentences are good: > > 1 John has long kissed Mary. > 2 I will long remember this day. The second example is good. The first sounds unnatural to me.
"John has long known Mary" is natural. Aha! I see what was bothering me. Your first example seems to imply a kiss of a duration that I've never experienced.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Eric Walker - 28 Dec 2009 23:14 GMT [...]
> However, I still feel much/long-V is a special construction. This > should be clear by examining the contrast between: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your terms, while in 3,4 we have ad-clausals, in 1,2, we still seem to > have true adverbs. Case #1 demonstrates why the "do-form" evolved: it allows adverbs that really apply to "like" to apply instead to the "dummy" verb "do", so that they can follow it, be "true adverbs", and thus receive the stress of the sentence. In Case #2, the adverb, from its placement, is a "adclausal" sentence adverb, modifying the thought entire; the stress in the spoken sentence will fall naturally on the verb, and I am unclear why you think it is the adverb that would be stressed. Obviously, one can, with intent, place stress wherever one wants, but the natural fall would be on the word "kissed".
(I am reminded of a scene in an old movie comedy wherein an elderly woman has a part in an amateur dramatic presentation, and spends ages rehearsing her part--which consists entirely of the four words "Here comes the prince." She is seen endlessly trying one set of inflections after another.)
> Another thought/question I have is that I wonder whether the following > sentences are good: > > 1 John has long kissed Mary. > 2 I will long remember this day. Yes. In #1, the adverb, as a "sentence adverb", modifies the thought entire; were it placed after the verb (and object), so as to directly modify that verb, it would imply the comically lengthy osculation mentioned elsewhere. A context for that exact sentence takes a little imagination, but something like this might do:
"I wonder if John has ever kissed Mary." "Oh, indeed. John has long kissed Mary."
Not very likely or natural, but possible.
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Chih-hsiang Shu - 29 Dec 2009 14:17 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ Hmm.. I see what you were saying. Still, I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form evolution' is involved:
1. John much hates the book. 2. John quickly finished his work.
There is no 'do' here, but stress behaves differently in 1 and 2, right? So, it seems even without 'do', _much_ can be a 'true adverb' here. The adverb _long_ is perhaps different.
Thanks. Braininvat
Eric Walker - 29 Dec 2009 23:23 GMT > . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form > evolution' is involved: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There is no 'do' here, but stress behaves differently in 1 and 2, > right? . . . Perhaps we need a poll here, because to my ear the stress still falls on the verbs, "hates" and "finished". It's not a heavy stress, but such as there is, that's where I feel it.
Do others hear it else?
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Peter Moylan - 30 Dec 2009 10:00 GMT >> . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form >> evolution' is involved: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Do others hear it else? My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book".
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Eric Walker - 30 Dec 2009 10:54 GMT [...]
> My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine > any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book". Forms with an adverb are quite common: "Tucker Carlson Still Very Much Hates Jon Stewart"; "Claire Danes Pretty Much Hates Brooklyn"; and so on (all from Google's first few responses on <"much likes" OR much hates">. Many phrases usually given with a qualifier can sound a tad unusual when given bare ("a deal of trouble"), but unusual is neither automatically rare or unidiomatic. Forms with "like" instead of hate are fairly common:
Sounds to me like nobody much likes Mark. Nobody much likes the EU constitution. No one much likes living in Buckingham Palace. No one much likes to talk about it out loud, but everyone knows it's true. The problem with Christmas is that no one much likes it anymore.
But "hate" is there, too, if--as stipulated--less often (all via Google):
So now I am friends with the person my ex much hates. You should not practise lechery, for a knight should cherish his body and keep it pure so that he does not incur shame therefrom, for God much hates suchlike filth. (English translation of "Le Roman des Eles") She basically much hates every minute of it. His Lordship is mercifull to all Protestants though he much hates a coward. (Lord Inchiquin, letter, 1642)
Finding samples would be a lot easier if one, Google would acknowledge punctuation, at least within quoted search terms, and two, there weren't so very many instances of the--to me--shocking use of the phrase "much hates" for (or so it seems from context) "many hatreds".
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Chih-hsiang Shu - 30 Dec 2009 15:19 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ It seems _much like_ or _much hate_ generally need to occur in negation or some kind of subordinate clause to sound natural. And _quickly eat/ finish/leave_ does not have this requirement. Just an general observation.
Braininvat
Robert Bannister - 30 Dec 2009 23:07 GMT >>> . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form >>> evolution' is involved: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My ear can't make the judgement, because I find it impossible to imagine > any native speaker of English saying "John much hates the book". But (as someone pointed out earlier), if you add "very", it doesn't sound nearly as weird.
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Chih-hsiang Shu - 30 Dec 2009 15:06 GMT > > . . . I feel the following contrast shows something other than 'do-form > > evolution' is involved: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ It's not my intention to push the issue too much here, since I guess this is not a forum for detailed linguistic analyses, but there is another contrast that is relevant too. With _much_ and _long_ in negative contexts, it is natural to have Adv+V word order, but this is not the case with other adverbs. Consider:
John doesn't much like the idea. He didn't long survive after that accident.
John didn't quickly finish his assignment. John didn't loudly speak.
I kind of feel the first two are more idiomatic/natural than the last two, even if we don't think about stress. So _much_ and _long_ are kind of special.
Braininvat
Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2009 23:42 GMT > Re "He has long gone": > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > all *flown*; We *are assembled* today to debate crucial matters; &c &c > The parallels to the subject form are clear. Thank you. I hadn't spotted the fact that the participles have the appearance of adjectives, but now you've mentioned it, it is clear.
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Eric Walker - 26 Dec 2009 02:01 GMT > I have been puzzled by a word order fact in English. Some adverbs can > precede the verb only in some special contexts (with specific verbs [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there a name or theory of these word order facts? Or do you have a > theory about what's going on here? The "adverb" being, as one scholar has put, the dustbin of grammar, there are in fact three distinct parts of speech wrapped up in that one term. Let's look at them.
A "true" adverb (that is non-standard terminology), is one that acts to directly modulate the sense of the associated verb; it follows the verb immediately (or as closely as possible, meaning after any intervening direct object):
He ran fast. She threw the ball hard.
In older English, the negating adverb "not" followed that rule and appeared after the verb (or direct object):
I think not so. I like it not.
Besides the "true" adverb there is what is usually called a "sentence adverb", That term is standard terminology but misleading, in that it modifies a clause: though a clause can be an entire sentence, it can also be just a part of a sentence, and I prefer the non-standard term "adclausal". An adclausal modulates not the sense of the verb but of the entire associated clause (which is to say an entire thought). Adclausals are marked by being placed anywhere *except* where a "true" adverb would go--typically just before the verb, but also often at the start or end of the clause. Consider:
1. Quickly, he spoke to his audience. 2. He quickly spoke to his audience. 3. He spoke quickly to his audience. 4. He spoke to his audience quickly.
In #1 and #2--where, by its placement, "quickly" is an adclausal--it is clear that the quickness refers to with what delay (or, in fact, lack of delay) the subject began his speaking.
In #3--where, by its placement, "quickly" is a true adverb--it is fairly clear that it refers to the manner of his speech, suggesting he was rushing his words.
In #4, it may not be immediately clear which is meant, because the adverb comes at sentence's end; but it is separated from the verb only by "to his audience", which is in fact a dative clause (with "to" as an inflectional particle) acting as a noun, so the effect is the same as an intervening direct object ("He threw the ball quickly"), meaning the word is a true adverb. Thus, in #4 the adverb is also a true adverb, even though by coincidence it ends the sentence (Just as in "He threw the ball quickly").
The reason those placement habits evolved is the way stress in speech normally falls: a true adverb naturally tends to receive stress from its placement, whereas a sentence adverb naturally tends to be lightly stressed.
It is owing to those factors that the so-called "do-form" of verbs evolved, allowing greater flexibility of emphasis in speech:
I *do* care about you. [positive emphasis] I *do not* think so. [negative emphasis]
With "do" carrying verbal force, the adverbs can follow it and receive the intended emphasis.
The third sort of modifier called "adverb" is a word that modulates the sense of an adjective or other adverb; adverbs of that sort always precede the modifier they are further modulating:
He was an *impressively* _tall_ man. She ran *very* _fast_.
Now let's look at the subject sentences:
We'll be long gone at that time.
"Long" is a modulating adverb modifying "gone" and so precedes it. (In reality, the form is elliptical for "long since gone".)
I don't much care for his tone.
"Much" is here an adclausal; it is modulating the effect or force of the whole thought in the bare clause "I don't care for his tone". While a sentence adverb can usually be put in one of several places--just before the verb, at the beginning of the sentence, or at the end of the sentence--idiomatically not always are all three slots available for a given adverb.
I don't much care for his tone. [normal] I don't care for his tone much. [unusual but acceptable] Much, I don't care for his tone. [not idiomatically possible]
On the other hand, all of these pass muster:
He anxiously awaited the committee's decision. Anxiously he awaited the committee's decision. He awaited the committee's decision anxiously.
Note that whether an adverb is modifying the sense of a particular verb or of the entire thought/clause containing that verb--especially when the clause is quite simple in form--is often a subtle distinction, which the position helps us interpret.
1. He went quickly to the door. 2. He quickly went to the door.
In #1, the quickness very definitely applies to his going, implying that he was walking rapidly or even running. In #2, there is a slight shift of emphasis such that the quickness applies entire act: the quickness is in his deciding to go to the door and the initiation of the process of going there. Indeed, while it would be a bizarre form indeed, in the right context it would not be grammatically or even logically impossible to say "He quickly walked slowly to the door." (When the buzzer sounded, he anxiously hopped up out of his chair and began moving, but, being reluctant to face his visitor, put off the moment by walking slowly.)
An unprotected human would not long survive in the clutches of outer space.
As with "do-forms", the adverb is a true adverb modifying the preceding verb form.
He has long left.
With the fuller form used, acceptable: "He has long since left." As originally given it is unacceptable owing to its possible confusion with the sense "he has a lot of time yet to go" (and is in any event infelicitous even for that sense).
(If one considers the alternative true-adjective form, "He has left long since", the question arises--as it often does when we consider using an adverb as a clausal adverb or as a true adverb--of what exact *method* of "long since" departing might distinguish it from any other form of departing. A good many adverbs carelessly used as true adverbs have more logic when used as sentence (clausal) adverbs.)
I much like the book.
Quite acceptable. "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb, it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like swimming very much.")
He will long survive.
Same case as the unprotected human in space. It's a somewhat unusual form, but nothing wrong with it.
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Jeffrey Turner - 26 Dec 2009 16:53 GMT > I much like the book. > > Quite acceptable. "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to > positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb, > it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like swimming > very much.") Do you like swimming much?
--Jeff
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Eric Walker - 27 Dec 2009 01:17 GMT [...]
>> Quite acceptable. "Much" as a sentence adverb does not take well to >> positions other than immediately preceding the verb (as a true adverb, >> it usually--or always??--needs to be qualified by "very": I like >> swimming very much.") > > Do you like swimming much? Would "Yes, I like swimming much" strike you as a reasonable answer? Interrogative forms often differ from the declarative by more than mere word order. But that very point is worth mentioning in this case.
 Signature Cordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/
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