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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Santa's reindeers ???
Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: Rudolf, Dancer, Prancer, Trigger, Black Beauty, etc... So when did the name come from? I know the where - the USA. The problem for me is that the USA was not (predominently) white unitl 400 years ago - it was red, and the red people had never heard of Santa until the whites (with black slaves) turned up on the scene. So is there some English origin to the reindeers names, or does it all come from "the new colony"? > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So is there some English origin to the reindeers names, or does it all come > from "the new colony"? The names are not traditional. They come from the poem, "The Night Before Christmas": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Before_Christmas http://iment.com/maida//familytree/henry/xmas/poemvariants/troysentinel1823.htm published in 1823. The poem is known in the UK, but it doesn't form part of the folk culture here in the way it does in the USA where it is commonly recited to children on Christmas Eve. This poem froze many of the familiar concepts about Santa Claus, although these were later further set by Cola Cola Christmas adverts of the early 20th Century.  SignatureDavid > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > > I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: Rudolf, Dancer, > Prancer, Trigger, Black Beauty, etc... So when did the name come from? I > know the where - the USA. I've just read your list properly - some of those are not reindeer in the poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and Blitzen"). Rudolph (the red nosed reindeer) is even less traditional, coming from a story of the 1930s. Black Beauty is a horse in an English novel of the same name, from the 1870s. Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of 1950s films. SignatureDavid >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >1870s. Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of >1950s films. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus%27s_reindeer which references: http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/rudolph.asp SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >1870s. Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of >1950s films. Roy Rogers did sing in his movies, but most Americans of a certain age would name Gene Autry as "The Singing Cowboy". (Gene's horse was "Champion") Most of the singing in Roy's movies was by The Sons of the Pioneers. Trigger remains on view, mounted for view in Branson, Missouri. Trigger was not stuffed after death, as some claim. His hide was stretched over a plaster figure. I once shook Roy's hand. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Roy Rogers did sing in his movies, but most Americans of a certain age > would name Gene Autry as "The Singing Cowboy". (Gene's horse was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Trigger was not stuffed after death, as some claim. His hide was > stretched over a plaster figure. This is normal in taxidermy. Whether a mammal, fish or bird, a "stuffed" animal needs an armature of sorts to replace the skeleton, which in life enabled the creature to stand or move. Precast solid material (formerly plaster, nowadays plastic) is the most common infrastructure for a "stuffed" specimen. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Roy Rogers did sing in his movies, but most Americans of a certain age >> would name Gene Autry as "The Singing Cowboy". (Gene's horse was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Precast solid material (formerly plaster, nowadays plastic) >is the most common infrastructure for a "stuffed" specimen. Not sage and onion, then? SignatureIan D >>> Trigger remains on view, mounted for view in Branson, Missouri. >>> Trigger was not stuffed after death, as some claim. His hide was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Not sage and onion, then? No, no, old chap -- not with horse. Treat it like beef. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> filted: >>>Precast solid material (formerly plaster, nowadays plastic) >>>is the most common infrastructure for a "stuffed" specimen. >> >>Not sage and onion, then? > > No, no, old chap -- not with horse. Treat it like beef. I'd treat it like chicken, but I haven't the thyme....r >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > I once shook Roy's hand. The SoPs were Roy's backing band.Roy did quite a lot of singing, especially after he hooked up with Dale Evans. It was who Dale wrote their signature song Happy Trails. Dale used to joke about having Roy mounted on Trigger, which was the best horse of all of them. And I'm properly jealous of your having shoook his hand. > > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner > and Blitzen"). I don't know the poem's origin for the first six. The last two are german words for Thunder and Lightning. (I capitalized them as their reference is as proper names.) > Rudolph (the red nosed reindeer) is even less traditional, coming from a > story of the 1930s. Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of "Santa Claus" - as Saint Niclaus, the patron saint of children. That's why he's also called "Saint Nick." D. Stussy skrev: > Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of "Santa Claus" - > as Saint Niclaus, the patron saint of children. Wikipedia does not agree: Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. SignatureBertel, Denmark >D. Stussy skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of > the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. No need to disagree, though the origin of the name "Santa Claus" could just as easily be Dutch, where he is known as "Sint Niklaas" or "Sinterklaas". I noticed that in December shop windows in Breda were decorated with three figures in Western bishops' robes stepping ashore from a boat. I'm not sure who the other two were, but some have told me that one of them was known as "Zwart Piet" (Black Pete). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes skrev: > >Wikipedia does not agree: > > Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the > > Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek > > Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of > > the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. > No need to disagree, though the origin of the name "Santa Claus" could just as > easily be Dutch, where he is known as "Sint Niklaas" or "Sinterklaas". They got the name from the old bishop - according to Wikipedia (also the Dutch version). I am not saying that "Santa Claus" came directly from the eastern countries. We may well have inherited it from Dutch. But the original name is Greek/Turkish. > I noticed that in December shop windows in Breda were decorated with three > figures in Western bishops' robes stepping ashore from a boat. I'm not sure > who the other two were, but some have told me that one of them was known as > "Zwart Piet" (Black Pete). Sint-Nicolaas has some helpers known as Zwarte Pieten. There are many. They are not necessarily nice (according to a friend of mine who is Dutch now living in Denmark). The Danish "nisser" has the same kind of double nature - they may help or they may be mean. The general thought today around Christmas time is that they are nice and smiling, but the traditional perception is that one had better stay friends with them lest they should make the animals sick or destroy the crop (Denmark used to be a farming country). Therefore people set out food and drink for the nisser at Christmas. It used to be common, nowadays few do it. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Steve Hayes skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >directly from the eastern countries. We may well have inherited >it from Dutch. But the original name is Greek/Turkish. Certainly not Turkish. The Turks only arrived later. The name has a revolutionary ring, since it means "Victory of the People". >> I noticed that in December shop windows in Breda were decorated with three >> figures in Western bishops' robes stepping ashore from a boat. I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >food and drink for the nisser at Christmas. It used to be common, >nowadays few do it. That sounds like the English elfs/elves. An "elf-shot" horse was one that had a mysterious ailment. But if that were so, why were the Dutch ones dressed as bishops in the shop windows? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes skrev: > >The Danish "nisser" has the same kind of double nature - they may > >help or they may be mean. > That sounds like the English elfs/elves. An "elf-shot" horse was one that had > a mysterious ailment. We know "elve" in Denmark. They are quite different from nisser. Elves live in caves in elverhøje (elf hills). Nisser live in or near peoples houses, barns etc. > But if that were so, why were the Dutch ones dressed as bishops in the shop > windows? I don't know. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Steve Hayes skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Elves live in caves in elverhøje (elf hills). Nisser live in or >near peoples houses, barns etc. What the Russians call "domovoi", and the ancient Romans called "lares"? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Steve Hayes skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What the Russians call "domovoi", and the ancient Romans called "lares"? Danish "nisser" are like English "brownies". SignatureJames >>> Steve Hayes skrev: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Danish "nisser" are like English "brownies". I thought brownies grew up into girl guides, who then became crumpet on reaching 16. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> Steve Hayes skrev: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I thought brownies grew up into girl guides, who then became crumpet >on reaching 16. That would be official crumpet. Some will have been in rehearsals for a year or four. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Steve Hayes skrev: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I thought brownies grew up into girl guides, who then became crumpet > on reaching 16. The long-legged ones become rangies. SignatureRob Bannister Steve Hayes skrev: > >Elves live in caves in elverhøje (elf hills). Nisser live in or > >near peoples houses, barns etc. > What the Russians call "domovoi", and the ancient Romans called "lares"? I don't know. Here is a typical picture of Christmas nisser: http://www.ejvinds-klejnsmedie.dk/images%20julestue/aar%202003%20nisser.jpg Wikipedia has an explanation in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomte "Tomte" is the Swedish word for it. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Steve Hayes skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Wikipedia has an explanation in English: The Moomintroll books refer to "the ancestor behind the stove" -- I assume that is similar. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > But if that were so, why were the Dutch ones dressed as bishops in the shop > windows? I think you must have looked too quickly. Sinterklaas is dressed as a bishop, but the Zwarte Pieten have a sort of Renaissance velvet/lace knee-breeches costume with a flat plumed cap. Photos: http://media.wereldjournalisten.nl/media/uploads/zwarte%20pieten(1).jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Sinterklaas_zwarte_pi et.jpg As to why, well, heck, holiday traditions mutate faster than just about any other social custom. Somewhere along the way, the Christians declared the jolly Norse god of winter and the dark elves were actually the sainted bishop and his servant (who recently multiplied). I suppose the reason was that the bishop's day was December 6, fairly close to the solstice. After all, we pretend Jesus was born December 25. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux [...] >After all, we pretend Jesus was born December 25. PRETEND? Madam, I'm an American! > [...] >>After all, we pretend Jesus was born December 25. >> > PRETEND? Madam, I'm an American! That would explain the raincoats on the magi. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> But if that were so, why were the Dutch ones dressed as bishops in the shop >> windows? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >the reason was that the bishop's day was December 6, fairly close to the >solstice. Well the ones I saw were 40 years ago, so maybe they've mutated since then, but they loked nothing like the ones in the picture you linked to. They were wearing very tall and obviously Western bishops' hats (nothing like what the actual St Nick would have worn). Perhaps they've mutated since then. >After all, we pretend Jesus was born December 25. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> But if that were so, why were the Dutch ones dressed as bishops in the shop > >> windows? > > > >I think you must have looked too quickly. Sinterklaas is dressed as a > >bishop, but the Zwarte Pieten have a sort of Renaissance velvet/lace > >knee-breeches costume with a flat plumed cap. Photos: [snip] > Well the ones I saw were 40 years ago, so maybe they've mutated since then, > but they loked nothing like the ones in the picture you linked to. They were > wearing very tall and obviously Western bishops' hats (nothing like what the > actual St Nick would have worn). > > Perhaps they've mutated since then. Hmm. A quick bit of research turns up the message that the image of Zwarte Piet has basically been fixed since 1850. A picture from then: http://www.anno.nl/gfx/content/sintsbedreiging-groenepiet-schenkman.jpg I don't know what else to suggest. The Three Wise Men (Magi) would have a variety of crowns and headgear, not bishop's miters. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of "Santa Claus" - > > as Saint Niclaus, the patron saint of children. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Christian bishop of Myra (now Demre) in Lycia, a province of > the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Wikipedia doesn't do any research. They merely accept what is given to them, whether correct or not. I find it extremely unlikely that a story coming from the Eastern Orthodox Church would be carried into the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. western Europe) as such. >>> Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of "Santa > Claus" - [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Church would be carried into the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. western Europe) as > such. Why not? If he was a fourth century bishop, he lived before both the Great Schism and the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. SignatureCheryl On 27 Dec 2009, Cheryl wrote >>>> Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of >>>> "Santa [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Why not? If he was a fourth century bishop, he lived before both > the Great Schism and the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. Indeed; and the Oxford _Dictionary of Saints_ claims that "he was one of the most universally venerated saints in both East and West". FWIW, here's their judgement on the link to the Santa Claus: "Perhaps the most popular result of his cult is the institution of Santa Claus. Based ultimately on Nicholas' patronage of children with its attendant custom in the Low Countries of giving them presents on his feast, it attained its present form in North America, where the Dutch Protestants of New Amsterdam united to it Nordic folkloric legends of a magician who both punished naughty children and rewarded good ones with presents." SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 27 Dec 2009, Cheryl wrote > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Nordic folkloric legends of a magician who both punished naughty > children and rewarded good ones with presents." Isn't he the bloke who saved a young woman from a fate worse than death by chucking three bags of gold through the window? Which made him, among other things, the patron of pawnbrokers. (I think it was here that I was deeply disappointed to learn that he couldn't actually have smacked Arius in the mouth at the Council of Nicaea.) SignatureMike. On 28 Dec 2009, Mike Lyle wrote >> On 27 Dec 2009, Cheryl wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > than death by chucking three bags of gold through the window? > Which made him, among other things, the patron of pawnbrokers. Yup. He was a fave patron saint, apparently -- children, sailors, unmarried girls, merchants, pawnbrokers, apothecaries, and perfumiers is the list the ODS gives. > (I think it was here that I was deeply disappointed to learn > that he couldn't actually have smacked Arius in the mouth at the > Council of Nicaea.) (Apparently the problem with linking him to certain groups at the Council of Nicea is that virtually nothing is known of his life -- other than the three bags of gold, raising three murdered boys from the dead, saving three unjustly condemned men, and saving three sailors. Single and pairs of imperilled souls needed to find a different saint, I guess.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> "Perhaps the most popular result of his cult is the institution of >> Santa Claus. Based ultimately on Nicholas' patronage of children [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >deeply disappointed to learn that he couldn't actually have smacked >Arius in the mouth at the Council of Nicaea.) In the splendid picture by Gentile da Fabriano he's chucking three golden balls in through their window, hence the pawnbroker's sign. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> > Rudolf, with that spelling, is German. So is the origin of "Santa >Claus" - [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Wikipedia doesn't do any research. They merely accept what is given to >them, whether correct or not. The Wikipedia article is accurate as far as it goes. >I find it extremely unlikely that a story coming from the Eastern Orthodox >Church would be carried into the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. western Europe) as >such. In the fourth century the Roman empire had two capitals and sometimes two emperors for administrative convenience, but was regarded by its citizens as a single unit. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was a much later phenomenon, and by the time it was formed the cult of St Nicholas was well established in both East and West. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk On 27 Dec, 07:29, "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote: > > > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The last two are german words for Thunder and Lightning. (I capitalized > them as their reference is as proper names.) But in the original poem, they were Dunder and Blixem; which soon became Donder and Blixen; later Blitzen; and, much later, Donner. > > > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The last two are german words for Thunder and Lightning. (I capitalized > them as their reference is as proper names.) Originally not German: http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/donner.asp <quote> Whether Moore or Livingston wrote "A Visit from Saint Nicholas," one of them melded elements of Scandinavian mythology with the emerging Dutch-American version of Santa Claus as a jolly, pipe-smoking fellow and produced a vision of a sleigh pulled by eight flying reindeer. He assigned names to all the reindeer, and he took two of them from a common Dutch exclamation of the time, "Dunder and Blixem!" (the Dutch words for "thunder" and "lightning," as rendered in English orthography). These are the names that appeared in the original 1823 publication of "A Visit from Saint Nicholas": "Now! Dasher, now! Dancer, now! Prancer, and Vixen, On! Comet, on! Cupid, on! Dunder and Blixem;" </quote> SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email [...] > Whether Moore or Livingston wrote "A Visit from Saint Nicholas," one > of them melded elements of Scandinavian mythology with the emerging > Dutch-American version of Santa Claus as a jolly, pipe-smoking fellow > and produced a vision of a sleigh pulled by eight flying reindeer. [...] Not every Santa Claus is jolly. Last week I saw one who looked quite depressed, so I asked him why he was so gloomy. "You'd be gloomy too," he grumbled. "I come only once a year, and that's down a chimney." Related Santa cartoon: http://aman.members.sonic.net/santa-knows.jpg Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> >> I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: Rudolf, Dancer, >> Prancer, Trigger, Black Beauty, etc... So when did the name come from? I >> know the where - the USA. > I've just read your list properly - some of those are not reindeer in the > poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1870s. Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of 1950s > films. Hi again David, I am aware of what Red Rum, Trigger and Black Beauty are, but I was using an old politicians technique to hide my own ignorance of the reindeer names (if one has knowledge, flaunt it at every opportunity. But if one does not then invent it in the hope that the receiver is equally ignorant, or too polite to make the observation :-). >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> >> I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: Rudolf, Dancer, >> Prancer, Trigger, Black Beauty, etc... So when did the name come from? I >> know the where - the USA. > I've just read your list properly - some of those are not reindeer in the > poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1870s. Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of 1950s > films. Hi again David, I am aware of what Red Rum, Trigger and Black Beauty are, but I was using an old politicians technique to hide my own ignorance of the reindeer names: 1 - If one has knowledge, flaunt it at every available opportunity. 2 - If one does not then invent it in the hope that the receiver is equally ignorant, or too polite to make the observation :-). 3 - Mix a little knowledge with invented facts to increase credibility. I didn't get away with it! Sorry!! /HL >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, > Donner and Blitzen"). David, you forgot the other reindeer, Olive. What's that? You know, in the song: Olive, the other reindeer, used to laugh and call him names. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >>> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You know, in the song: Olive, the other reindeer, used to laugh and call > him names. That's an obvious mish-earing of Olav. SignatureJames >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >>> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >You know, in the song: Olive, the other reindeer, used to laugh and call >him names. Too true. Note the early example of "singular they" in the next line. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the poem (these are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner >and Blitzen"). I thought that the names of the reindeer were bestowed by Walt Disney or his studios, but perhaps I was thinking of Snow White's seven dwarfs, none of whom was named in the fairy stories I read as a child. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> filted: >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >>> heritage. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > seven dwarfs, none of whom was named in the fairy stories I read > as a child. And as long as we're putting all this information into a single thread, Rudolf was given his name by Johnny Marks (that the song was performed by a singing cowboy, specifically Gene Autry, was alluded to earlier).... I heard a story a week or two ago about some bratty kid grilling the local department-store Santa by insisting that, if he was the *real* Santa, he should be able to name all the reindeer...put in that Santa's position, I think I'd like to mess with the kid's head a little...after telling him that I knew he was thinking of the list in the old poem, I'd go on to point out that I (Santa) didn't use the same reindeer *every* year, and then invent reasons for one or more to drop off the team ("Dasher went back to school to get his business degree; he wants to go into management")....r the Omrud set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Trigger was the horse which belonged to a singing cowboy of > 1950s films. Last heard of, quite a few years ago now, pulling Ernie's milk-cart in the song by the late Benny Hill. Anybody (else) here remember that? Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >the Omrud set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Last heard of, quite a few years ago now, pulling Ernie's milk-cart in the >song by the late Benny Hill. Anybody (else) here remember that? Oh, Yes. Very much Yes. http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/e/erniethefastestmilkmaninthewest.shtml http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19wAAyxZhUo&feature=related SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>the Omrud set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >>continuum: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19wAAyxZhUo&feature=related In 1986, he turned up (briefly) in another hit song, about 30 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05jcrJw0as ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > > I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [...] Others have explained the names, but I'm interested in that "reindeers". This isn't the first time I've seen or heard the sigmatic "irregular" plural this Christmas: is the traditional "one reindeer, many reindeer" rule on the way out? If it is, are we seeing signs of an accelerating general "regularizing" process? Strong verbs ("weave") are acquiring weak forms ("weaved") all over the place. (I know this is a question which has been asked in one form or another often enough; but it's still a fair one.) SignatureMike. >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >plural this Christmas: is the traditional "one reindeer, many reindeer" >rule on the way out? O give me a home where the buffaloes roam where the deers and the antelopes play >If it is, are we seeing signs of an accelerating general "regularizing" >process? Strong verbs ("weave") are acquiring weak forms ("weaved") all >over the place. But, in the opposite direction, "proved" seems to be universally replaced by "proven". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sigmatic "irregular" plural this Christmas: is the traditional "one > reindeer, many reindeer" rule on the way out? Could that be simply because people don't hunt them any more? It tends to be animals that are killed and eaten that have identical singular and plural forms. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >>> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tends to be animals that are killed and eaten that have identical > singular and plural forms. Then reindeer should have identical singular and plural forms. By the way, they're not so much hunted as herded, having been domesticated. Bon appétit: http://www.matservice.se/bilder/stora/7319993289761.jpg http://www.akepfagelovilt.se/images/produktbilder/Tryckbara/renstek_benfri.jpg SignatureJames >>> Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" >>> heritage. I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: [...] [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to be animals that are killed and eaten that have identical singular and > plural forms. I don't know if reindeer are hunted but they are certainly still killed and eaten - we have been offered dishes made from reindeer meat on visits to Norway. The animals may have been bred for the table. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS filted: >> Could that be simply because people don't hunt them any more? It tends >> to be animals that are killed and eaten that have identical singular and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and eaten - we have been offered dishes made from reindeer meat on >visits to Norway. The animals may have been bred for the table. I know I've had reindeer jerky...tasted a lot like bison, but then with the seasonings I imagine tree bark would taste a lot like bison too....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> Others have explained the names, but I'm interested in that >>> "reindeers". This isn't the first time I've seen or heard the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > meat on visits to Norway. The animals may have been bred for the > table. Well, yes, but I don't think Lapps have had a big influence on contemporary English. Do any English-speaking people farm reindeer? SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> Others have explained the names, but I'm interested in that >>>> "reindeers". This isn't the first time I've seen or heard the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Well, yes, but I don't think Lapps have had a big influence on >contemporary English. Do any English-speaking people farm reindeer? Yes. There is a reindeer herd in the Falkland Islands (West Falkland) that is being farmed for meat. According to this Falklands visitors's guide: http://www.falklands.info/background/visitorsguide.html [Those reindeer are] the only herd in the world untouched by radiation from Chernobyl. I've found two reindeer farms in Britain. The reindeer are kept as a tourist attraction rather than being bred for the table. http://www.reindeer-company.demon.co.uk/ The Cairngorm Reindeer Herd is Britain's only herd of reindeer, found free ranging in the Cairngorm mountains in Scotland. These extremely tame and friendly animals are a joy to all who come and see them. Reindeer are not just for Christmas http://www.reindeercentre.co.uk/ Tha home-page title line is: Welcome - The Reindeer Centre - Sleigh and reindeer hire for corporate, tv, television, magazine, parties, party, private, functions, weddings, christmas, light, lights, switch-on The page says: Welcome to the reindeer centre the home of England's original 'Reindeer Grotto'. We imported some reindeer from Sweden 8 years ago and now have in excess of 100 reindeer due to our successful breeding programme. Our reindeer being English bred and farm reared, some by hand are extremely tame and are perfect to meet and greet the public at the farm and at the many events we attend all over England. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. The plural of reindeer is reindeer. Hairy Lethal set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Stoopid question I know, but this is a part of our "English" heritage. > > I keep hearing about Santas reindeers, and their names: Rudolf, Dancer, > Prancer, Trigger, Black Beauty, etc... So when did the name come from? I > know the where - the USA. This account of a recent mishap is undated, but it has recently been declassified here in the UK so it can been published on the web: http://www.concatenation.org/futures/harnessing_brane_deer_lo.pdf Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply |
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