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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2009Waugh: The weather was fine?
Hello: When would one in BrE prefer the lack of inversion to the inversion in such questions: "The weather was fine?" "Was the weather fine?" Is the 2nd one more formal or what? ---- [Ryder's questioned by his father on his trip] "You have enjoyed yourself?" "Very much. I went to Venice." "Yes. Yes. I suppose so. The weather was fine?" Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 725 ---- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu >When would one in BrE prefer the lack of inversion to the inversion in >such questions: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Is the 2nd one more formal or what? To a modern sensibility the second form is much more usual. The first is looking for a confirmation ("the weather is almost always fine there so I assume it was for you"; or perhaps "I had heard that they were having a lot of thunderstorms there", though I'd generally expect the second form there too).  SignatureRoger BW - BrE Marius Hancu set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks. > Marius Hancu Quite common in colloquial English where the appropriate tone identifies the sentence as a question without requiring inversion. A final upward tone is usual for such a question. Here one could almost ascribe musical notes to the words, where "fine" would be spoken as a rising seventh - almost, but crucially not quite, an octave - so begging for an answer to either complete the major-key cadence... The wea-ther was fi - ne? Ye - s s : m f s : d t : d' d ...or to switch to the minor mode: The wea-ther was fi - ne? No - o, it rai-ned s : m f s : d t : l r : m t, l, Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Marius Hancu set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time > continuum: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > The wea-ther was fi - ne? No - o, it rai-ned > s : m f s : d t : l r : m t, l, Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score of Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score of >Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? With conventional dots as well, or pure sol-fa? I have quite a few Novello publications in the former format, but have only once had to cope with the latter (and then the words were in Zulu, as well, which didn't help). Katy On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:01:57 +0000, ke10 wrote: >>Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score >>of Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? > > With conventional dots as well, or pure sol-fa? Pure sol-fa. > I have quite a few Novello publications in the former format, but have > only once had to cope with the latter (and then the words were in Zulu, > as well, which didn't help). As musical challenges go, that one might be right up there with learning to play the baryton. The main difficulty with playing the baryton, of course, is that it might eventually tempt one to try to learn Hungarian. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:01:57 +0000, ke10 wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Pure sol-fa. Yuk. Sol-fa, the ultimate dumbing down. Regards Jonathan >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:01:57 +0000, ke10 wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yuk. Sol-fa, the ultimate dumbing down. No, the ultimate dumbing down is teaching the voice parts of an entire oratorio by rote, and supplying separate "practice CDs" of each voice part. 19th-century tonic sol-fa choral singers were almost always better readers than their "old notation" counterparts, many of whom (as still happens to day) could not read their way out of a paper bag. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > As musical challenges go, that one might be right up there with learning > to play the baryton. The main difficulty with playing the baryton, of > course, is that it might eventually tempt one to try to learn Hungarian. A légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply Roland Hutchinson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >> Marius Hancu set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >> continuum: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> The wea-ther was fi - ne? No - o, it rai-ned >> s : m f s : d t : l r : m t, l, > Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score of > Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? Bizarre. Is the actual key indicated anywhere? I used to sing with one of the Welsh choirs, and most pieces we sang were written out in dual notation. I found myself constantly switching from one notation to the other to get the "feel" of a piece. There was only one piece which we sang, written out in sol-fa only - the Soldiers' Chorus from Gounod's Faust. The one oddity of stave notation for male-voice choir music is that the tenor parts are written on a G clef. Taking that as the treble clef would make the parts far too high for any tenor to sing. Rather, it was understood that the G so indicated was the one *below* middle C. Sometimes the G-clef sign would be varied by replacing the dot at its base with a tiny digit 8, but that wasn't really necessary - we all knew what was meant. (I'm actually a deep bass so this didn't apply to me.) Glad to know that my attempts to write sol-fa (certainly the easier notation to incorporate into a pure-text message!) were not totally wasted. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Roland Hutchinson set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score >> of Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? > Bizarre. Is the actual key indicated anywhere? Yes, of course. It is standard practice to do so at the beginning of a piece in tonic sol-fa notation. > Glad to know that my attempts to write sol-fa (certainly the easier > notation to incorporate into a pure-text message!) were not totally > wasted. You need a little work on the rhythmic notation -- otherwise quite admirable! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score of > Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? I've never understood why tonic sol-fa persists. Surely it's easier to learn to read music. SignatureDavid >> Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal >> score of Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? > > I've never understood why tonic sol-fa persists. Surely it's easier > to learn to read music. I'd guess that it's considered easier to print and doesn't tie you to a particular key. And if you don't read music, I suspect that it's less intimidating. (I learned at an early age, so I can't really say.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you |don't get good theories. You get kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |theology instead. (650)857-7572 | --John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Have I mentioned here that I am the proud owner of a piano-vocal score >>> of Mendelsson's _Elijah_ in tonic sol-fa notation? >> >> I've never understood why tonic sol-fa persists. Surely it's easier to >> learn to read music. It hasn't persisted. True tonic sol-fa notation was eventually abandoned by its own advocates in favor of teaching movable-do solfege together with staff notation. > I'd guess that it's considered easier to print Hence its wide adoption by missionaries, apparently. > and doesn't tie you to a > particular key. Though in the case of 19th-century editions of standard oratorios, that's hardly a consideration. > And if you don't read music, I suspect that it's less > intimidating. (I learned at an early age, so I can't really say.) The original point is that it (1) is quicker to learn to read and (2) encourages understanding and internalization of key-relationships. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 725 >---- Shades of difference in meaning only. There's a slight presumption in the example, I'd say. "Fine, was the weather?" works as well! Cue plodding ploughmen... SignatureIan D >>---- >>[Ryder's questioned by his father on his trip] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Fine, was the weather?" works as well! > Cue plodding ploughmen... Indeed. In addition, I think that the version actually used includes an unspoken "of course" at the end, and is meant by Waugh to convey the feeling that Charles's father was on auto-pilot, so to speak. I mean, he's been to Venice and all his father could think about to mention was the weather. This illustrates the breakdown in communication. The meaningless "I suppose so" does the same thing. Regards Jonathan On Dec 27, 9:25 am, "Jonathan Morton" <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: > "Ian Dalziel" <iandalz...@lineone.net> wrote in message > >>---- > >>[Ryder's questioned by his father on his trip] [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > illustrates the breakdown in communication. The meaningless "I suppose so" > does the same thing. That was my impression too. Thank you all for wonderful commentaries on a nice bit of usage. Marius Hancu > When would one in BrE prefer the lack of inversion to the inversion in > such questions: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 725 (Confessing to influence by John Gielgud's marvellous impersonation on TV of Ryder Senior), the author's preference here is one tiny component in Waugh's delineation of characters through their speech. Ryder Sr. does not ask questions to collect new information: he couches questions so that the answers reaffirm his fixed view of the world, of his son's impracticality and waste of his talents (or lack of commercial talents) cf. especially his plan (years later) to remarry as soon as he can divorce wife no. 1. I do not know whether this choice of speech forms was deliberate and conscious in Waugh's mind, but he does it marvellously. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> When would one in BrE prefer the lack of inversion to the inversion in >> such questions: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > was deliberate and conscious in Waugh's mind, but he does it > marvellously. Yes, that is spot-on, all of it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
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