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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010time of day
The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely nine-thirty. (P Cornwell) My eyes blurred as I tried to drift off again at 3:00 A.M. (ditto) Let me ask a question about the way of describing time of day. In the first sentence, you say just like 7:16 and 9:30, and in the next one "3:00 A.M." One thing that annoys me as a reader of American novels is the way of saying time of day, since one sometimes find it hard how to tell whether it is AM or PM. You don't have a custome of putting P.M for the afternoon's time of day each time, or saying like "19:16" or "21:30", do you? Or, if you don't put AM after the time "7:16" or "9:30", should we automatically take it as PM? >The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely >nine-thirty. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >day each time, or saying >like "19:16" or "21:30", do you? Not in general in the US, at least. Except maybe for military usage. >Or, if you don't put AM after the time "7:16" or "9:30", should we >automatically >take it as PM? No, you have to glean it from the context. How do you do it in Japan?  SignatureJohn >> One thing that annoys me as a reader of American novels is the way of >> saying time of day, since one sometimes find it hard how to tell [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No, you have to glean it from the context. How do you do it in Japan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clock#The_traditional_Japanese_time_system http://tinyurl.com/y9yg4kn SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely >nine-thirty. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >day each time, or saying >like "19:16" or "21:30", do you? We do when there is no context, but not necessarily if context allows you know. I would assume that in the Cornwall book there is some reference to it being morning or night when the burglar alarm went off...something in the story that allowed you to determine if it was morning or night. When you take a sentence completely out of context, ambiguities can arise that are not present when the sentence is firmly ensconced in context. >Or, if you don't put AM after the time "7:16" or "9:30", should we >automatically >take it as PM? No. Read the entire passage and the events leading up to the passage and make a logical determination. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Masa <autosu@infoseek.jp>: >The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely >nine-thirty. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >automatically >take it as PM? You should let the context be your guide. Native speakers can generally do this without any effort, but for anyone struggling with the language it's often an unwelcome complication. When it's important to avoid ambiguity, such as in timetables etc, the usual practice in the US is to specify am or pm, and in the UK we use the 24-hour clock. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Masa <autosu@infoseek.jp>: >> The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > usual practice in the US is to specify am or pm, and in the UK we use > the 24-hour clock. Instead of "in the UK", you could have written "elsewhere", although I sort of doubt that no-one in America uses the 24 hour clock. SignatureRob Bannister >> Masa <autosu@infoseek.jp>: >>> The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Instead of "in the UK", you could have written "elsewhere", although I >sort of doubt that no-one in America uses the 24 hour clock. No one except the military, the police, and the fire departments. And maybe some others. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Masa <autosu@infoseek.jp>: >>>> The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >No one except the military, the police, and the fire departments. And >maybe some others. Yes, film makers who depict the military, the police and the fire departments. ObAUE: In keeping with modern times, I dropped the Oxford comma from Coop's list, if anyone cares about such minutia. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> No one except the military, the police, and the fire departments. >> And [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ObAUE: In keeping with modern times, I dropped the Oxford comma from > Coop's list, if anyone cares about such minutia. Not so minor (or "minute" [adj]) a change to me. The comma before "the fire department" belongs there, modern times or not. Even if people print out your post, how much ink did you save them, even as a group? If your post was not printed, how much effort did you save yourself in dropping the comma? My thought: You probably wasted more time thinking about it than you saved by not typing the comma. One good thing: You didn't remove the comma from Tony's post. That would have been doubly wrong. Naturally, I've left your deletion as you had it. It may serve as an example for others who might commit the sin you did. Thought: I didn't think you were young enough (and/or misguided enough) to be in the crowd that thumbs it's collective nose at the properness of an "Oxford comma." (1945, was it?) SignatureMaria Conlon > >Instead of "in the UK", you could have written "elsewhere", although I > >sort of doubt that no-one in America uses the 24 hour clock. > > No one except the military, the police, and the fire departments. And > maybe some others. Anything having to do with aviation, other than airline schedules for the public, is in 24 hour Zulu (Greenwich) time. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > One thing that annoys me as a reader of American novels is the way of > saying time of day, since one sometimes find it hard how to tell [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Or, if you don't put AM after the time "7:16" or "9:30", should we > automatically take it as PM? Neither American nor British English has any such rule or convention, so no reader should make such a rule for himself. Readers (and writers and publishers' editors) appear to expect the social context and the narrative context to indicate whether a time is a.m. or p.m. Someone who says "I could not get to sleep before 2" is probably talking about 2 a.m. (Someone working at night and sleeping in the daytime would probably tell you this if he went to bed at 10 a.m. and lay awake until 2 p.m.) We should expect the example > The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely > nine-thirty (P Cornwell) to tell us within a very few lines whether this was 7.16 a.m. or p.m. (If the text fails to do so, the publisher's editor also failed to notice this and suggest a correction.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) In our last episode, <dc6257a3-fe5d-452a-921f-1a15866f6adc@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented Masa broadcast on alt.usage.english: > The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely > nine-thirty. > (P Cornwell) > My eyes blurred as I tried to drift off again at 3:00 A.M. > (ditto) As others have pointed out, it is often necessary to consider the greater context. The above seem to be poorly edited. The styles should not be mixed, especially as "3:00 A.M." > You don't have a custome of putting P.M for the afternoon's time of > day each time, or saying like "19:16" or "21:30", do you? The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark for much more than half the day, I sometimes set my watch to tell "military time," so I won't be confused when I wake and cannot tell the difference from the sky, but I would never speak military time to someone who asked. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 26 645.3 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. > The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In > higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark for > much more than half the day, I sometimes set my watch to tell "military > time," so I won't be confused when I wake and cannot tell the difference > from the sky, but I would never speak military time to someone who > asked. Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used exclusively in public transport timetables. We would /never/ call it 'military time'. My computer is currently telling me that it is 23:11 (which means I ought to be in bed). It would never occur to me to set it to a 12-hour clock. Similarly central-heating timers, video recorders, microwave ovens etc. etc. Here in the UK the 12-hour clock is almost exclusively the province of the analogue clock/watch (and many of those have 13-24 in red around the outside). >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In >> higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >exclusively the province of the analogue clock/watch (and many of those >have 13-24 in red around the outside). TV and radio programme listings still seem to use the 12-hour clock. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. >>> In higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TV and radio programme listings still seem to use the 12-hour clock. I remember that the radio listings in Latvia, a long time ago, used the 24-hour clock. There was no TV available yet. Speaking, we used the 12-hour clock, even when talking about the radio listings. It was funny -- looking at 19:00 and saying the Latvian word for "seven". SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In >> higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > exclusively the province of the analogue clock/watch (and many of those > have 13-24 in red around the outside). 12/24-hour time is a bit of a mixture where I am. 24-hour is not generally used in public transport timetables, but it is common in video recorders and other electronic devices with digital clocks. I always use it on my computer, too. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. Lars Eighner (in the US): >>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military... Derek Turner (in the UK): >> Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used >> exclusively in public transport timetables. ObAUE: I know what you meant, but I want to read that as equivalent to "used only in public transport timetables". >> ...the 12-hour clock is almost exclusively the province of the >> analogue clock/watch... "Annily" (in Australia): > 12/24-hour time is a bit of a mixture where I am. 24-hour is not > generally used in public transport timetables, but it is common > in video recorders and other electronic devices with digital clocks. The only places I regularly see 24-hour times around here are airline timetables, train timetables, and times printed or displayed directly by a computer (e.g. on cash-register or ATM receipts, or if I type "date" to the shell). I don't regularly deal with the federal government, but I have an idea that they use 24-hour times in stating things like office hours, either because they're bilingual (but of course so is "9:00 - 5:00" with no "am" or "pm") or because they think they want to conform to a standard. Everything else is 12-hour time. I'm not sure about long-distance bus timetables -- it's been years since I used them much -- but the Toronto Transit Commission uses 12-hour time in all timetables, notices, and so on. Indeed, the transfers issued on TTC surface vehicles actually take advantage of the 12-hour clock: the same alignment mark is used for the tear-line indicating (say) 10 am and 10 pm, with a separate NIGHT tab distinguishing by its presence or absence which one is meant. (In this case NIGHT means from 5 pm to 5 am the next day). Thus only 12 hourly marks are needed and it is easier for the driver or collector accepting a transfer to quickly read the hour. I believe that in Quebec, and maybe the bit of Ontario near Quebec, the use of the 24-hour clock is more common. SignatureMark Brader "This must be a serious issue! Toronto It's spawned a new interjection!" msb@vex.net --Steve Summit My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader: > ... the Toronto Transit Commission uses 12-hour time in all > timetables, notices, and so on. Afterthought: there was one exception to this. Back when the public clocks in subway stations were just clocks and the only ads on them were small posters instead of a pixelboard or video screen, they kept alternating-13-and-11-hour time. Specifically, they ran from 0:00 (midnight) up to 12:59 (pm), then from 1:00 (pm) to 11:59 (pm). SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "The E-Mail of the species is more deadly msb@vex.net | than the Mail." -- Peter Neumann My text in this article is in the public domain. >I believe that in Quebec, and maybe the bit of Ontario near Quebec, >the use of the 24-hour clock is more common. It's certainly used exclusively[1] on French-only things like signs and parking meters in Quebec. My recollection is that French-language TV schedules (including the sort of on-air announcements the Brits call "continuity" and we don't really have any name for) were all 24-hour as well, so a 7:30 program might be announced as starting at "dix-neuf heures trente". But the anglo community in Montreal, as I recall, stuck with 12-hour times ("Newswatch at six with Dennis Trudeau" aired in the evening). But one would not be surprised to see someone attempting to communicate in his or her L2 (or L3!) and using the "wrong" style of time. -GAWollman [1] Any suggestion on a better word for this? SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 This may involve a matter of differece in custom. Our translation of that part in that novel published in our country uses: 7:16 p.m or 9:30 p.m. This may show that in our custmory expression it's normal to say 7:16 p.m instead of just "7:16" even if context tells clearly enough that it's afternoon's 7:16. Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org>: >>I believe that in Quebec, and maybe the bit of Ontario near Quebec, >>the use of the 24-hour clock is more common. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >[1] Any suggestion on a better word for this? "It's certainly always used"? "It's invariably used"? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Lars Eighner (in the US): >>>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ObAUE: I know what you meant, but I want to read that as equivalent to > "used only in public transport timetables". I really shouldn't post just before going to bed and having drink taken! Someone downthread suggests 'invariably' which is much better. I meant 'to the exclusion of other systems' but no excuses... Derek Turner: > I really shouldn't post just before going to bed and having drink taken! What, someone took your drink? That *would* be upsetting! SignatureMark Brader | "Warning! Drinking beer, wine or spirits during Toronto | pregnancy can harm your baby." (City of Toronto msb@vex.net | notice in restaurant washrooms--men's and women's) > Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used > exclusively in public transport timetables. We would /never/ call it > 'military time'. My computer is currently telling me that it is 23:11 > (which means I ought to be in bed). It would never occur to me to set it > to a 12-hour clock. Britain began to use the 24-hour clock only in the 1970s, I think. Britons were aware of its use in European bus and train time- tables but I guess the increasing volume of air traffic prompted the change. International air traffic control had always used the 24-hour clock. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > International air traffic control had always used > the 24-hour clock. ...and Zulu (Greenwich) time. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela filted: >> International air traffic control had always used >> the 24-hour clock. > >...and Zulu (Greenwich) time. They call that Uninated Coordiversal Time now....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >John Varela filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >They call that Uninated Coordiversal Time now....r Not quite, unless I'm mistaken, for isn't UCT referenced to the Solar System rather than to Earth, the frame of reference for GMT? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > John Varela filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > They call that Uninated Coordiversal Time now....r I knew some pedant would say something like that. I believe it's still Zulu (been retired for 14 years so maybe they changed it and didn't tell me). SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> John Varela filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >still Zulu (been retired for 14 years so maybe they changed it and >didn't tell me). The Pentagon Channel on our cable shows time in Zulu. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >I knew some pedant would say something like that. I believe it's >still Zulu (been retired for 14 years so maybe they changed it and >didn't tell me). The U.S. military standardized a set of one-letter time-zone indicators. "Zulu" in this case is nothing more than the NATO Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation of the letter "Z", which is defined by the military standard to be UTC (and presumably was formerly defined to be GMT), unless perhaps with the advent of GPS they switched to TAI. I assume they chose to use "Z" for the mnemonic value ("zero"). "A" and "Y" are the time zones one hour on either side of "Z" (I forget in which direction the letter zones go); "B" and "X" two hours, and so on. (There are now some time zones that can't be represented in this system -- there's some country in the South Pacific that's on UTC+14.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 > In article <dxizd0mOwR-pn2-9JsROCzobdku@localhost>, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > in this system -- there's some country in the South Pacific that's on > UTC+14.) There have long been several time zones that can't - for example, Nepal is 5 hours 45 minutes ahead of GMT. >> In article <dxizd0mOwR-pn2-9JsROCzobdku@localhost>, >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >There have long been several time zones that can't - for example, >Nepal is 5 hours 45 minutes ahead of GMT. Indian Standard Time (India and Sri Lanka) is 5 hours 30 minutes ahead of GMT. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >"A" and "Y" are the time zones one hour on either side of "Z" (I >forget in which direction the letter zones go); "B" and "X" two hours, >and so on. Very few people ever can remember which way they go, which I suspect is why they were never widely used in email time-stamps - it doesn't help that the email standard accidentally defined them the opposite way from the military system. SignatureRoger BW - BrE >> Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used >> exclusively in public transport timetables. We would /never/ call it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the change. International air traffic control had always used > the 24-hour clock. The biggest hurdle seems to be our lack of a convenient way of expressing it - our use of "o'clock" instead of "hours" adds another syllable, so to cover our embarrassment, we add even more with an superfluous, quasi-military "hundred". It's easy to say "vierzehn Uhr dreissig" or "treize heures trente", but "thirteen thirty" sounds odd to our English-receiving ears, so we just flounder about in a quaintly English way. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used >>> exclusively in public transport timetables. We would /never/ call it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "thirteen thirty" sounds odd to our English-receiving ears, so we just > flounder about in a quaintly English way. "It was a bright, cold day in April and the clocks were striking thirteen" immediately bring it home to the reader that Orwell's narrative does not take place in London As We Know It (AmE: We're not in Kansas anymore.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >"It was a bright, cold day in April and the clocks were striking >thirteen" immediately bring it home to the reader that Orwell's narrative >does not take place in London As We Know It (AmE: We're not in Kansas >anymore.) Okay, the clocks I get, but is there additionally anything odd or non-British about "a bright, cold day in April"?... RAH famously put the reader in an otherworldly setting with just three lines: "The door dilated"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Okay, the clocks I get, but is there additionally anything odd or non-British >about "a bright, cold day in April"?... It is not impossible to have "a bright, cold day in April" in the UK, but typical April weather is summed up in the phrase "April Showers". A cold day in April would typically have hail or snow. The clouds would prevent "brightness". http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/april_showers.shtml >RAH famously put the reader in an otherworldly setting with just three lines: >"The door dilated"....r SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> "It was a bright, cold day in April and the clocks were striking [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > RAH famously put the reader in an otherworldly setting with just three lines: > "The door dilated"....r Dilated to meet you. SignatureRob Bannister Roland Hutchinson wrote, in <hhenpl$mtr$2@news.eternal-september.org> on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:17:42 +0000 (UTC): > >>> Interesting. In the UK the 24-hour clock is very prevalent and used > >>> exclusively in public transport timetables. We would /never/ call it [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > does not take place in London As We Know It (AmE: We're not in Kansas > anymore.) Where did I read "like the thirteenth stroke of a crazy clock, not only absurd in itself but casting doubt on all that had gone before"? SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Roland Hutchinson wrote, in <hhenpl$mtr$2@news.eternal-september.org> > on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:17:42 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Where did I read "like the thirteenth stroke of a crazy clock, not only > absurd in itself but casting doubt on all that had gone before"? A. P. Herbert: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/A._P._Herbert SignatureJames James Hogg wrote, in <hhfbti$qmu$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:00:38 +0100: > > Roland Hutchinson wrote, in <hhenpl$mtr$2@news.eternal-september.org> > > on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:17:42 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > A. P. Herbert: > http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/A._P._Herbert I don't think that is where I got it, I am very clear in my memory of the exact wording which of course may be someone adapting APH. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > "It was a bright, cold day in April and the clocks were striking > thirteen" immediately bring it home to the reader that Orwell's narrative > does not take place in London As We Know It (AmE: We're not in Kansas > anymore.) You could be in Worsley though. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com>: >It's easy to say "vierzehn Uhr dreissig" or "treize heures trente", but >"thirteen thirty" sounds odd to our English-receiving ears, so we just >flounder about in a quaintly English way. That's not my experience. The 24-hour clock is so widely used, in the contexts where it *is* used, that it seems entirely natural. To me, anyway. Cue the old joke: Army officer 1: "Do you know, I've not had sex since 1955" Army officer 2: "Well, it's only 2100 now" SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Cue the old joke: > > Army officer 1: "Do you know, I've not had sex since 1955" > Army officer 2: "Well, it's only 2100 now" An air traffic control joke: "Andrews Approach this is Air Force Sixty-Six estimating the Aldie VOR at 1423 requesting approach clearance." "Roger Air Force you are cleared etc. etc." A little later: "Andrews Air Force Base this is Navy jet Eighty-two expecting to be at Aldie at two thirty-seven PM requesting clearance to land." "Roger Navy you are cleared etc. etc." Still later: "Uh, Andrews this is Marine Ninety-one, we expect to be at A-L-D when the big hand is on the two and the little hand is on the eight..." SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > Cue the old joke: > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > when the big hand is on the two and the little hand is on the > eight..." Oh dear: I got the big hand and the little hand backwards. I think I need remedial pre-school. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com>: >> It's easy to say "vierzehn Uhr dreissig" or "treize heures trente", but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Army officer 1: "Do you know, I've not had sex since 1955" > Army officer 2: "Well, it's only 2100 now" The problem is with the second time which, I presume, is said "twenty-one hundred", and that smacks of the military. Of course, that is entirely appropriate in the context, but I think that is what makes us civilians a little chary of saying 24 hour times out loud, even though I have all my digital-display clocks showing 24h time. SignatureRob Bannister > we just > flounder about in a quaintly English way. I thought they called that "muddling through". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >In our last episode, ><dc6257a3-fe5d-452a-921f-1a15866f6adc@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >context. The above seem to be poorly edited. The styles should not be >mixed, especially as "3:00 A.M." We don't know, though, that these two usages appeared in proximity. The change in style may have been required by context. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Lars Eighner: > The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In > higher latitudes, where according to season, it is light or dark for much > more than half the day, I sometimes set my watch to tell "military time," so > I won't be confused when I wake and cannot tell the difference... I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this watch means 6:15 AM or PM. By the way, Masa, the abbreviations "am", "AM", "a.m.", and "A.M." are all correct and equivalent. Similarly with PM. SignatureMark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun Toronto rising in the daytime instead of at night, msb@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >Lars Eighner: >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this >watch means 6:15 AM or PM. Sometimes that ruins a plot point in a piece of fiction...there was a story arc on the old "Dark Shadows" soap opera in which vampire Barnabas and another character were in an auto accident and ended up in the hospital...the doctor tells Barnabas it's three o'clock and later flings open the room curtains as he announces it's three *PM*...Barnabas recoils in terror from the bright sunlight streaming into the room, only to realize that the transfusion he received following the accident means he's no longer completely vampiric (the effect wears off gradually over the next few months as his body assimilates the "foreign" blood)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Lars Eighner: >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this >watch means 6:15 AM or PM. Ugh. Those ugly digital watch faces. I try to be progressive, but I could never wear a watch with a digital display. The hands on my watch now display 9:32 or thereabouts. If it's off a minute or two, it dismays me not. I have never had need to know that it's 9:32:04 p.m. I have a sense of knowing if it's morning or evening. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Mark Brader: >> I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM >> and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this >> watch means 6:15 AM or PM. Tony Cooper: > Ugh. Those ugly digital watch faces. I try to be progressive, but > I could never wear a watch with a digital display. Ugh. Those obsolete analog clocks. I try to be sympathetic, but I cannot imagine why anyone would not want to simply be able to *read the time straight off the display*. Nobody in the 21st century -- hell, nobody living since 1980 -- should need to "learn to tell time". > The hands on my watch now display 9:32 or thereabouts. If it's off > a minute or two, it dismays me not. You either don't watch TV in real time or aren't sufficiently averse to commercials. If the show starts at 9:00, the set gets turned on at 8:59:57 (allowing time to select the channel), or as near as can be managed. SignatureMark Brader | "And I won't like [this usage] any better if you Toronto | produce examples from Shakespeare, Milton, Johnson ... msb@vex.net | Or, indeed, myself." --Mike Lyle My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>: >Mark Brader: >>> I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >*read the time straight off the display*. Nobody in the 21st century -- >hell, nobody living since 1980 -- should need to "learn to tell time". If my principal use for a clock was to lead me to a string of digits representing the time, it's clear that a digital display would suit me better. But that's not what I use a clock for. I use a clock to assess the magnitude and direction of the difference between the time now and some other time. That other time is sometimes a scheduled time, but more usually it's the time that my internal clock is telling me. I look at a clock to find out whether it's later or earlier than I think it is, and by roughly how much. Or, rarely, to find out how far in the future or past some fixed time is. For that purpose, I find that an analogue display is far superior. Of course it's relevant that I have learned and practised reading an analogue clock. Note that I don't say "telling the time", a skill that I have little use for. From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the screen in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue clock up on the wall to my right. I never look at the digital clock. (It's there only because I can't have the date displayed without it.) Unlike Tony it's not a matter of aesthetics for me: analog clocks simply work better. I don't wear a watch at all. >> The hands on my watch now display 9:32 or thereabouts. If it's off >> a minute or two, it dismays me not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >at 8:59:57 (allowing time to select the channel), or as near as can >be managed. Accuracy is another matter altogether. I prefer an accurate clock to an inaccurate one, regardless of the display type. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the screen > in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue clock up > on the wall to my right. I never look at the digital clock. (It's there > only because I can't have the date displayed without it.) Its principal use here has long been to see the seconds clicking off so I know the system is running. Now that I have a Mac I no longer need that service, so I only display the day and date. (When you're retired you tend to lose track of what day it is.) > Unlike Tony it's not a matter of aesthetics for me: analog clocks simply > work better. I don't wear a watch at all. I do wear a watch. One of the advantages of an analog readout is that one often wants to know how long till a certain time--departure time, appointment, start of the show, etc.--and an analog clock face gives an immediate display of time-to-go without having to do any mental arithmetic. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the screen >> in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue clock up [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I know the system is running. Now that I have a Mac I no longer need > that service, so I only display the day and date. I have long suspected that the reason Windows XP doesn't give you (out of the box) the option to display the seconds is that it can't be relied on to consistently update the display once a second, and a seconds display that moves by jerks and starts is not good advertising for Microsoft. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >I have long suspected that the reason Windows XP doesn't give you (out of >the box) the option to display the seconds is that it can't be relied on >to consistently update the display once a second, and a seconds display >that moves by jerks and starts is not good advertising for Microsoft. That might have been the case as recently as Windows 98, but by the time XP came along most such lags had been done away with....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That might have been the case as recently as Windows 98, but by the time > XP came along most such lags had been done away with....r Yeah, that's what I want in an operating system: a user-facing real-time clock that only occasionally lags by a second or more. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>> From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the screen >>> in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue clock up [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to consistently update the display once a second, and a seconds display > that moves by jerks and starts is not good advertising for Microsoft. They could model it on the file copy dialogue: 2 seconds, 5 days, 3 weeks, 10 seconds, 1 hour, done. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>>> From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the >>>> screen in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > They could model it on the file copy dialogue: 2 seconds, 5 days, 3 > weeks, 10 seconds, 1 hour, done. Time counters that increase monotonically are _so_ predictable. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >> From here I can glance at the digital clock in the corner of the screen >> in front of me, or I can turn my head to look at the analogue clock up [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >so I know the system is running. Now that I have a Mac I no longer >need that service, so I only display the day and date. I don't need that service either, because my PC is always running. But on Windows XP there isn't an option to show the day and date without the time. >(When you're >retired you tend to lose track of what day it is.) Exactly. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > on Windows XP there isn't an option to show the day and date without the > time. Out of the box there's no option like that on the Mac, either, but you can get a plug-in that does the trick. > >(When you're > >retired you tend to lose track of what day it is.) > > Exactly. And you know when it's time to change the oil in your car when you have sex with your wife. If she initiates it then you know it's time to get the car inspected. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >> John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >> >(When you're [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >And you know when it's time to change the oil in your car when you >have sex with your wife. Does having sex with someone else not count? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England John Varela wrote, in part: > And you know when it's time to change the oil in your car when you > have sex with your wife. You're getting the oil changed a whole lot, one could infer. > If she initiates it then you know it's time > to get the car inspected. No, it's time to count your blessings. Just saying, NTIAOMB. SignatureMaria Conlon On 29 Dec 2009, Mike Barnes wrote > Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>: >> Mark Brader: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I use a clock to assess the magnitude and direction of the > difference between the time now and some other time. Precisely; a digital display inevitably shows only how many minutes have expired "since time X"; unlike an analogue clock, it doesn't show how many minutes are left "before time X" unless one does a mental calculation. (In Mark's TV example quoted below, my intention would be to turn the set on at 3 seconds before the target hour, rather than 59m 57s after the previous hour.) -snip- >> You either don't watch TV in real time or aren't sufficiently >> averse to commercials. If the show starts at 9:00, the set [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Accuracy is another matter altogether. I prefer an accurate > clock to an inaccurate one, regardless of the display type. This past year I've managed to change almost all of our clocks (exceptions are the central heating timer and the microwave clock) to "radio-set" time, including the analogue ones. Excellent invention. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed Harvey Van Sickle: > (In Mark's TV example quoted below, my intention would be to turn > the set on at 3 seconds before the target hour, rather than 59m 57s > after the previous hour.) That's what I said, 8:59:57. Next you'll be complaining that the number 99,997 is harder to understand than the expression 100,000 - 3. SignatureMark Brader | "Warning! Drinking beer, wine or spirits during Toronto | pregnancy can harm your baby." (City of Toronto msb@vex.net | notice in restaurant washrooms--men's and women's) On 31 Dec 2009, Mark Brader wrote > Harvey Van Sickle: >> (In Mark's TV example quoted below, my intention would be to >> turn the set on at 3 seconds before the target hour, rather >> than 59m 57s after the previous hour.) > > That's what I said, 8:59:57. Sorry: counting forward from 8 is patently not the same as counting backward from 9. > Next you'll be complaining that the number 99,997 is harder to > understand than the expression 100,000 - 3. Indeed -- in some cases it could well be. "We're just three pounds short of having raisedd £100,000" is calculating backwards from 100,000 rather than counting forward from some lower figure, and it seems more idiomatic to me than "We've raised £99,997". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Harvey Van Sickle: >> (In Mark's TV example quoted below, my intention would be to turn [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Next you'll be complaining that the number 99,997 is harder to > understand than the expression 100,000 - 3. It's the difference between half full and half empty. It depends on what is important. SignatureRob Bannister >> Next you'll be complaining that the number 99,997 is harder to >> understand than the expression 100,000 - 3. > >It's the difference between half full and half empty. It depends on what >is important. I can never remember whether it's the glass half full or the glass half empty that's supposed to be the signifier of an optimistic outlook. So much depends on the antecedents. "It's only half empty" sounds much more cheerful than "it's only half full". SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Next you'll be complaining that the number 99,997 is harder to >>> understand than the expression 100,000 - 3. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >outlook. So much depends on the antecedents. "It's only half empty" >sounds much more cheerful than "it's only half full". As I see it, if you leave out the spurious "only", it is the optimist who sees the glass as being half full and the pessimist who insists it is half empty. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Mark Brader: >>> I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >at 8:59:57 (allowing time to select the channel), or as near as can >be managed. I do watch TV, but I don't sit - watch in hand - and wait until 8:59:57 to turn it on for a 9:00 show. If I turn it on early, and commercials are on, I hit the mute button until the program starts. With the exception of sports and news, I rarely watch television live. Almost everything is recorded and watched later. Sometimes we'll start watching an 8:00 pm show about 8:15. That's enough to speed through the commercials. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Mark Brader: >>>> I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >start watching an 8:00 pm show about 8:15. That's enough to speed >through the commercials. If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or in shops. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE On 30 Dec 2009, Chuck Riggs wrote -snip- >> With the exception of sports and news, I rarely watch >> television live. Almost everything is recorded and watched [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to, is available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on > the Internet or in shops. Doesn't Sky+ have similar functionality as TIVO? I know they offer that service in Ireland -- although it's subscription -- so I'm surprised to hear that non-Sky PVR/DVR machines are hard to find. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 30 Dec 2009, Chuck Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that service in Ireland -- although it's subscription -- so I'm >surprised to hear that non-Sky PVR/DVR machines are hard to find. As I've done in the past, I'd subscribe to Sky+ if cable service weren't provided for nothing, here. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or >in shops. TIVO is a brand. We subscribe to cable TV, and the cable package includes the use of a device that records one or two programs. It is branded Scientific Atlanta. I believe you have to purchase a TIVO recording device. I like having the one "loaned" to us by the cable provider because if there's a problem with it the cable provider switches ours out with a new one. That's happened three times in our house. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is > >available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > switches ours out with a new one. That's happened three times in our > house. We have a Lite-On video recorder. It's four or five years old, not used a lot, but has never given trouble. I used it to convert all our home videos to DVD. It will do real-time time shifting (as when you want to pause the program to answer the phone), but you have to set it up in advance to do that and I never bother. Most of my TV watching is done on the second monitor on my computer using a device and software called EyeTV: http://www.elgato.com/elgato/na/mainmenu/home.en.html Whenever it's showing TV it's also recording so you can pause for an interruption without having done any prep. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> >If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >> >available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Whenever it's showing TV it's also recording so you can pause for an >interruption without having done any prep. Until my Lite-On recorder died shortly after a move, I mostly relied on its internal hard drive to record programmes after I had gone to bed, as opposed to burning DVDs. What the mover didn't know was that the device shouldn't be jolted around when a disk is in the tray. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >> available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > switches ours out with a new one. That's happened three times in our > house. I just googled Tivo. Seems I can buy it in Australia for 600 of our dollars. The website also shows me my nearest retailer - I can't get it to show me Ireland. SignatureRob Bannister >>> If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >>> available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >dollars. The website also shows me my nearest retailer - I can't get it >to show me Ireland. It is a long way from the best buy. The device is crippled here (in many ways) and has a tiny disk in it for the money. I bought a new machine for about $400 recently with 1 terabyte drive in it. Much better value and not limited by the requirements of "Freeview" or having to subscribe to a service. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>> If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >>>> available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in it. Much better value and not limited by the requirements of > "Freeview" or having to subscribe to a service. So what sort of category should I google or physically look for? SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >>>>> available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >So what sort of category should I google or physically look for? PVR seems to be the term. There is a forum DTV where they discuss the merits of various recorders. http://www.dtvforum.info/ I got the YESS machine after reading the very long thread initiated by the seller. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>>>> If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >>>>>> available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I got the YESS machine after reading the very long thread initiated by > the seller. Thank you. I will investigate, as it occurs to me that with such a device I could even watch commercial television without spewing. SignatureRob Bannister >>If a handy box like the TIVO, which I believe Coop is referring to, is >>available to viewers in Ireland, I haven't found it on the Internet or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >switches ours out with a new one. That's happened three times in our >house. Having it on loan makes good sense to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Mark Brader filted: >Tony Cooper: >> Ugh. Those ugly digital watch faces. I try to be progressive, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >*read the time straight off the display*. Nobody in the 21st century -- >hell, nobody living since 1980 -- should need to "learn to tell time". Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Tony Cooper: >>> Ugh. Those ugly digital watch faces. ... Mark Brader: >> Ugh. Those obsolete analog clocks. ... R.H. Draney: > Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless > series of grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object? Sure. Just like "carbon copy" and, as noted recently, "letting off steam". SignatureMark Brader "That's what progress is for. Progress Toronto is for creating new forms of aggravation." msb@vex.net -- Keith Jackson Mark Brader filted: >Tony Cooper: >>>> Ugh. Those ugly digital watch faces. ... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Sure. Just like "carbon copy" and, as noted recently, "letting off steam". I guess the catchphrase "film at eleven" is doubly atavistic now....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R.H. Draney: >>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless >>> series of grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object? Mark Brader: >> Sure. Just like "carbon copy" and, as noted recently, "letting off steam". R.H. Draney: > I guess the catchphrase "film at eleven" is doubly atavistic now. You must be a CBC fan, then. There are two kinds of people, those who think the CBC is a valuable national asset and those who would hardly notice if it disappeared. SignatureMark Brader "It is considered a sign of great {winnitude} Toronto when your Obs are more interesting than other msb@vex.net people's whole postings." --Eric Raymond Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>: >There are two kinds of people, those who think the CBC is a valuable >national asset and those who would hardly notice if it disappeared. I think most people are of a third kind. If CBC disappeared, they wouldn't notice *at* *all*. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >You must be a CBC fan, then. There are two kinds of people, those who >think the CBC is a valuable national asset and those who would hardly >notice if it disappeared. In my neck of the woods, the CBC has already disappeared, and I noted its passing with some sadness. I can still get Radio One in parts of the Pacific Northwest, but all the stations I used to be able to hear here have moved to FM. So I have no idea if there's anything worth listening to left. (I suppose I could find a stream.) I remember most specifically "Ideas" (with Lister Sinclair) and "That Time of the Night". I suppose the latter is no longer on. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 Garrett Wollman filted: >>You must be a CBC fan, then. There are two kinds of people, those who >>think the CBC is a valuable national asset and those who would hardly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >(I suppose I could find a stream.) You can begin your search at http://www.publicradiofan.com ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> You must be a CBC fan, then. There are two kinds of people, those who >> think the CBC is a valuable national asset and those who would hardly [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -GAWollman There's a new host for Ideas, and I don't listen as often, since I'm usually asleep when it's on and don't always remember to catch up online. But you can do that. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/ SignatureCheryl Cheryl wrote re CBC: > There's a new host for Ideas, and I don't listen as often, since I'm > usually asleep when it's on and don't always remember to catch up > online. But you can do that. > > http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/ Having listened occasionally to CBC in years past, I went to the site. The first thing I noticed was the slogan/motto: "What we think, know and imagine." Having just criticized Chuck Riggs for dropping an "Oxford comma," I felt rather embarrassed about having done so. Not that I feel I was wrong about the comma, but that I shouldn't have said anything. The missing comma has become a non-issue, apparently. New Year's resolution #1: Shut up. SignatureMaria Conlon > Cheryl wrote re CBC: >> There's a new host for Ideas, and I don't listen as often, since I'm >> usually asleep when it's on and don't always remember to catch up [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > New Year's resolution #1: Shut up. I was definitely taught to never use a comma before the last list member when it is preceded by an "and". I have since learned to disregard that rule. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of > grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r If you're in the northern hemisphere then clockwise has reference to a very familiar everyday object traversing the sky in the clockwise direction. Every day. Those on the wrong half of the globe just have to live with the contradiction. They may be forgiven for using digital read-outs. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email In our last episode, <dxizd0mOwXzR-pn2-98Yu4JpQ2Syb@localhost>, the lovely and talented John Varela broadcast on alt.usage.english: >> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r > > If you're in the northern hemisphere then clockwise has reference to > a very familiar everyday object traversing the sky in the clockwise > direction. Well, no it doesn't. But then, I have a northern exposure. > Every day. Those on the wrong half of the globe just have > to live with the contradiction. They may be forgiven for using > digital read-outs. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 27 669.7 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. >> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to live with the contradiction. They may be forgiven for using > digital read-outs. I hate to tell you how many years I've spent not making a connection between that and 'clockwise'. I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind myself of which direction is clockwise. SignatureCheryl Cheryl filted: >>>Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I hate to tell you how many years I've spent not making a connection >between that and 'clockwise'. Well, it's an indirect connection...the clocks emulate (by design) the shadow of a sundial, which in turn mirrors (by nature) the motion of the sun.... >I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >myself of which direction is clockwise. What would you have to visualize to remember "deasil"?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Cheryl filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > What would you have to visualize to remember "deasil"?...r Nothing, since I didn't know what it meant until I looked it up now. SignatureCheryl >>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >myself of which direction is clockwise. Another classic way is to observe which way the fingers on your left hand point when your left thumb is pointing towards your face. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>myself of which direction is clockwise. > >Another classic way is to observe which way the fingers on your left >hand point when your left thumb is pointing towards your face. I must be missing something here (or being Whooshed). I don't get it. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I must be missing something here (or being Whooshed). I don't get it. Let hand in front of face, thumbing nose. SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>>myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Let hand in front of face, thumbing nose. With fingers curled the line from palm to tips goes clockwise. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>>>myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >With fingers curled the line from palm to tips goes clockwise. Ah, I get it now. I'd have more trouble remembering that (which hand, how positioned, etc etc) than simply visualising a clock face. But each to their own. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>With fingers curled the line from palm to tips goes clockwise. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > etc etc) than simply visualising a clock face. But each to their > own. Cf. R. P. Feynman's right-hand rule (left-hand rule in Britain) for telling which way is up: Point your index finger in the direction of motion of the bus, and your thumb in the direction of motion of the exiting passengers. Your middle finger will point UP. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: "I am the Lord thy God" is a good commandment, depending on :|| ||: who says it. :|| >>>With fingers curled the line from palm to tips goes clockwise. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > motion of the bus, and your thumb in the direction of motion of the > exiting passengers. Your middle finger will point UP. So when the bus backs up... SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>>> I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>>>> myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> >>> Let hand in front of face, thumbing nose. Or just suck your thumb, and the fingers will spontaneously curl. >> With fingers curled the line from palm to tips goes clockwise. > > Ah, I get it now. > > I'd have more trouble remembering that (which hand, how positioned, > etc etc) than simply visualising a clock face. But each to their own. Well, it's a good way of working out which hand is your left hand. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>>myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Let hand in front of face, thumbing nose. If someone asks you the time, make sure you get it right by doing this before consulting your watch. SignatureLes (BrE) Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com>: >>>I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I must be missing something here (or being Whooshed). I don't get it. Are you curling your fingers? But the method relies on the assumption that someone who can't tell clockwise from anticlockwise can tell left from right. I remember that being the basis of a sci-fi story that I read as a child. The aliens were faced with two identical side-by-side buttons (leading to success and disaster), and the earthlings somehow had to tell them from afar which one to press. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com>: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >But the method relies on the assumption that someone who can't tell >clockwise from anticlockwise can tell left from right. Very true. The way I determine left from right, when I forget, is to consider the positioning of my heart. I have no trouble remembering that my heart is slightly to the left of my body's centreline from remembering how I pledge alliance to the American flag, from which I readily know which is my right arm, my right hand, my left arm, my left hand and so forth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>> myself of which direction is clockwise. >> Another classic way is to observe which way the fingers on your left >> hand point when your left thumb is pointing towards your face. > > I must be missing something here (or being Whooshed). I don't get it. I think you're supposed to curl your fingers so they point to your right. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to >>>> remind myself of which direction is clockwise. >>> Another classic way is to observe which way the fingers on your left >>> hand point when your left thumb is pointing towards your face. >> >> I must be missing something here (or being Whooshed). I don't get >> it. Neither did I. > I think you're supposed to curl your fingers so they point to your > right. Oh. When pointing my left thumb towards my face, my fingers were straight up. (And if "thumbing one's nose is a clue, I missed that, too -- fingers still straight up.) I need remedial education in something or other. Body language? SignatureMaria Conlon >> I think you're supposed to curl your fingers so they point to your >> right. > >Oh. When pointing my left thumb towards my face, my fingers were >straight up. (And if "thumbing one's nose is a clue, I missed that, >too -- fingers still straight up.) Yes, I did exactly that, too, and wondered where I was going wrong. Don't worry, Maria: it's not us, it's them. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> I've always had to visualize a clock, if one wasn't handy, to remind >>>> myself of which direction is clockwise. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I think you're supposed to curl your fingers so they point to your right. As you said, the fingers must be curled. My mistake for leaving that out. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Another classic way is to observe which way the fingers on your left > hand point when your left thumb is pointing towards your face. Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in knowing which is their left hand. More seriously, the problem with these rules is in remembering whether you need the "left hand rule" or the "right hand rule" - seem to remember something about those from physics - it was fine when we only had the one rule, and then the silly teacher taught the other one. On top of that, I live in the southern hemisphere, so the sun appears to move the other way anyway. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in >knowing which is their left hand. More seriously, the problem with these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >taught the other one. On top of that, I live in the southern hemisphere, >so the sun appears to move the other way anyway. It's the right-hand rule for cartesian coordinates...curling your fingers from the positive x- to the positive y-axis, your thumb points in the direction of the positive z-axis.... Left-hand rule had something to do with torque, I think....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the positive x- to the positive y-axis, your thumb points in the direction of > the positive z-axis.... Also good for working out vector cross products. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Also good for working out vector cross products. Then there is Fleming's Hand Rule rule for electric motors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_hand_rule and his Right Hand Rule for electric generators: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleming%27s_right_hand_rule SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Then there is Fleming's Hand Rule rule for electric motors: Fleming's Left Hand Rule SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Fleming's Left Hand Rule OK SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> Fleming's Left Hand Rule > >OK Is there a Rule for boats passing one another on Flemish canals? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Fleming's Left Hand Rule >> >>OK > > Is there a Rule for boats passing one another on Flemish canals? I would expect it to be the global standard of "keep the other craft to your port side" (pass on the right). Until nationalisation in the 1940s, different English canals had different rules, which must have made things fun (particularly in the depths of a tunnel) if you were outside your normal area. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> Then there is Fleming's Hand Rule rule for electric motors: > > Fleming's Left Hand Rule Who's going to walk around with Fleming's left hand in a small, hopefully refrigerated box? SignatureRob Bannister >>> Then there is Fleming's Hand Rule rule for electric motors: >> >> Fleming's Left Hand Rule > >Who's going to walk around with Fleming's left hand in a small, >hopefully refrigerated box? A disciple of Victor Frankenstein? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Also good for working out vector cross products. Essential, at least when I used to work with them. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Robert Bannister filted: >> Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Left-hand rule had something to do with torque, I think....r I thought the right- and left-hand rule had something to do with directions of current flow and/or magnetic fields, but it's been a long time since I was supposed to know that. Maybe there are multiple right- and left-hand rules. SignatureCheryl > Robert Bannister filted: >> Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Left-hand rule had something to do with torque, I think....r I think one of them had something to do with induced currents. SignatureRob Bannister >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I think one of them had something to do with induced currents. And the magnetic field created around a wire carrying an electric current. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>> Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >And the magnetic field created around a wire carrying an electric >current. And whether you use the left-hand or right-hand rule depends on whether you are considering conventional current direction or electron current direction. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>> Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >whether you are considering conventional current direction or >electron current direction. You're right, although I think most engineers would assume true current direction in problems of this nature. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>> Left-hand rule had something to do with torque, I think....r >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >You're right, although I think most engineers would assume true >current direction in problems of this nature. Fifty-some years ago when I was an engineering student, we used conventional current direction. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Which brings in an added problem for those who have difficulty in >knowing which is their left hand. I addressed that problem in an earlier post. >More seriously, the problem with these >rules is in remembering whether you need the "left hand rule" or the >"right hand rule" - seem to remember something about those from physics >- it was fine when we only had the one rule, and then the silly teacher >taught the other one. On top of that, I live in the southern hemisphere, >so the sun appears to move the other way anyway. If the shadow on your sun dials move in what we call counterclockwise, do the hands on your clock faces move CCW? Excuse my confusion, for it is not a facade. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > do the hands on your clock faces move CCW? Excuse my confusion, for it > is not a facade. The sun moves from right to left*. The clock hands go round in a manner that can only be called clockwise. * It does, in fact, move round, but for practical purposes such as which side of the beach umbrella to choose, the sideways movement is all that matters. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >side of the beach umbrella to choose, the sideways movement is all that >matters. If your sun goes backwards compared to our sun, I would think your sundials run in the opposite direction from ours, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > If your sun goes backwards compared to our sun, I would think your > sundials run in the opposite direction from ours, too. It doesn't matter. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to define "clockwise" in terms of a sundial. When I was learning that word, the world was full of circular clock faces, but not particularly full of sundials. I suppose future generations will define "clockwise" as counting upwards. There's a difference in behaviour between our respective suns that can't really be described as "going backwards". The Irish sun creeps around close to the horizon, with a clear "around" behaviour, and that makes it easy to define things like widdershins. Our sun travels more or less overhead, so it doesn't have a clear-cut "around" motion. It simply travels from east to west. True, it's further away from straight up in winter, but in winter we take less notice of the sun. The stars near the South Pole, most notably the Southern Cross, do have a visible circular motion. In fact, now that I think of it, they travel clockwise. That makes them a good timepiece at night. I suppose your northern sky must be going anticlockwise. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > > If your sun goes backwards compared to our sun, I would think your > > sundials run in the opposite direction from ours, too. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > world was full of circular clock faces, but not particularly full of > sundials. It's the sort of thing science teachers and science writers know, not the average Joe. Not a definition as much as an etymology. The odd thing is that not every sundial (even limiting ourselves to the northern hemisphere) runs clockwise. I know I've found pictures of ones that go counterclockwise, and seen them on old buildings. The difference appears to be whether it's the classic flat dial, horizontal in someone's garden, or a vertical one designed to work on the side of a building. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux filted: >The odd thing is that not every sundial (even limiting ourselves to the >northern hemisphere) runs clockwise. I know I've found pictures of ones >that go counterclockwise, and seen them on old buildings. The difference >appears to be whether it's the classic flat dial, horizontal in >someone's garden, or a vertical one designed to work on the side of a >building. Ah!...a gnomic mystery!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Donna Richoux filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ah!...a gnomic mystery!...r It's just a matter of sequencing the gnome. SignatureMike. Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to define >"clockwise" in terms of a sundial. Neither have I. But it's surely no coincidence that the hands of a clock rotate in the same direction as the shadow of a northern hemisphere sundial. (In that last sentence I pondered the ambiguity - shadow of the gnomon or shadow of the entire sundial? - but of course it doesn't matter one bit.) SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >> I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to define "clockwise" in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > gnomon or shadow of the entire sundial? - but of course it doesn't > matter one bit.) Before clocks became common people didn't say "clockwise" but "sunwise". They still say "medsols" (with the sun) in Norway and Sweden. SignatureJames Peter Moylan: > It doesn't matter. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to define > "clockwise" in terms of a sundial. No, but that's still the origin of the choice of that particular direction. I remember when the first time I went to the Southern Hemisphere, the friend I was visiting made of a point of showing me an anticlockwise sundial. > There's a difference in behaviour between our respective suns that can't > really be described as "going backwards". The Irish sun creeps around > close to the horizon, with a clear "around" behaviour, and that makes it > easy to define things like widdershins. Our sun travels more or less > overhead... That, of course, is a function of the absolute value of your latitude. In this respect the Sun's motion in Los Angeles is like that in Sydney or Newcastle; in Toronto, like Christchurch or Hobart; but for Dublin, the only corresponding Southern Hemisphere city of any size is Punta Arenas in southern Chile. But it's still true that the sun in the Southern Hemisphere goes from east to north to west and in the Northern Hemisphere from east to south to west, except in the tropics where it goes both ways at different times of year. > The stars near the South Pole, most notably the Southern Cross, do have > a visible circular motion. In fact, now that I think of it, they travel > clockwise. That makes them a good timepiece at night. I suppose your > northern sky must be going anticlockwise. Right. This, of course, is reversed from the Sun's direction as viewed in terms of a sundial because you're looking the other way along the rotational axis -- up at the sky instead of down at the ground. SignatureMark Brader "One might as well complain about the Sun Toronto rising in the daytime instead of at night, msb@vex.net when we need it more." -- John Lawler My text in this article is in the public domain. >>>>>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > If your sun goes backwards compared to our sun, I would think your > sundials run in the opposite direction from ours, too. Yes, they do. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>>>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >Yes, they do. Thank you, for that is reassuring to hear. Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials increase in the counter-clockwise [CCW] direction? Before answering that, is "clockwise" [CW] the same direction to someone in the Southern Hemisphere as it is for someone in the northern one or are the very meanings of the words, CW and CCW, interchanged? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Thank you, for that is reassuring to hear. > Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials > increase in the counter-clockwise [CCW] direction? Before answering > that, is "clockwise" [CW] the same direction to someone in the > Southern Hemisphere as it is for someone in the northern one or are > the very meanings of the words, CW and CCW, interchanged? Surely their clocks and watches are just like ours. What I want to know is whether they reverse widdershins. ----- withershins Spelled Pronunciation [with-er-shinz] adverb Chiefly Scot. in a direction contrary to the natural one, esp. contrary to the apparent course of the sun or counterclockwise: considered as unlucky or causing disaster. Also, widdershins. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Thank you, for that is reassuring to hear. >> Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Surely their clocks and watches are just like ours. What I want to > know is whether they reverse widdershins. In my car, I always reverse backwards. I have to admit that "widdershins" tends to mean "anticlockwise" to me. > ----- > withershins [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Also, widdershins. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>>>>>> Then you're content to let the term "clockwise" become a meaningless series of >>>>>>>>>> grunts with no reference to a familiar everyday object?...r [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Southern Hemisphere as it is for someone in the northern one or are > the very meanings of the words, CW and CCW, interchanged? It's confusing, isn't it? "Clock" comes from a word that meant "bell", but as far as I know, "clockwise" has always referred to analogue clock faces and not to the sun, sundials or even bells. Obviously, the numbers on sundials have to progress in the direction the shadow moves - I think I've seen a picture of some complicated sundial where the numbers didn't even progress in the same direction all the way because it was designed so that the shadow would change direction - but that could be my imagination. "Counterclockwise" is not normally used outside North America; the word is "anticlockwise". SignatureRob Bannister <snip> >> Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials >> increase in the counter-clockwise [CCW] direction? Before answering [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >so that the shadow would change direction - but that could be my >imagination. To put my question another way, are the numbers on the sundials used in the Southern Hemisphere arranged the same way as those on Northern Hemisphere sundials? Could you cross the equator with your sundial with a high expectation it would work on the other side? >"Counterclockwise" is not normally used outside North America; the word >is "anticlockwise". Good point. I forgot to make the AmE to BrE conversion. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Hemisphere sundials? Could you cross the equator with your sundial > with a high expectation it would work on the other side? From memory, no. I am not at all sure what happens at the Equator. In fact, I think strange things start to happen once you cross the Tropics. I suppose time passes slowly in hot climes. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister wrote, in <7qcr85Foa6U4@mid.individual.net> on Mon, 04 Jan 2010 08:32:04 +0800: > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > fact, I think strange things start to happen once you cross the Tropics. > I suppose time passes slowly in hot climes. This sort of sundial can be set to work at any latitude: <http://www.glenviewproducts.com.au/catalog/images/Copy%20of%20Equatorial%20Sundi als%20Sized001.jpg> <http://tinyurl.com/yktps6d> SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Robert Bannister wrote, in <7qcr85Foa6U4@mid.individual.net> > on Mon, 04 Jan 2010 08:32:04 +0800: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > <http://www.glenviewproducts.com.au/catalog/images/Copy%20of%20Equatorial%20Sundi als%20Sized001.jpg> > <http://tinyurl.com/yktps6d> Plus they look like works of art even if you don't know how to use it. SignatureRob Bannister Nick Spalding <spalding@iol.ie>: >Robert Bannister wrote, in <7qcr85Foa6U4@mid.individual.net> > on Mon, 04 Jan 2010 08:32:04 +0800: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >al%20Sundials%20Sized001.jpg> ><http://tinyurl.com/yktps6d> Not quite. The square-section U can be slid through the base according to latitude and clamped using the vertical screw. But the travel is considerably less than 180 degrees. You'd be out of luck close to a pole or the equator, because of the arrow shaft and number band respectively. Also note that the numbers run anticlockwise so the sundial is intended for southern hemisphere use. For northern hemisphere use you'd need to attach the base to the other half of the square-section U, which you could presumably do by unscrewing the disk through which the vertical screw runs. The numbers would be upside down, though. Here's a northern-hemisphere sundial for comparison: http://sundials.org/faq/setup/bowstring_eq.jpg SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England Mike Barnes wrote, in <UwLzuPwNVwQLFw31@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid> on Tue, 5 Jan 2010 09:24:29 +0000: > Nick Spalding <spalding@iol.ie>: > >Robert Bannister wrote, in <7qcr85Foa6U4@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > could presumably do by unscrewing the disk through which the vertical > screw runs. The numbers would be upside down, though. Easily fixed by mounting it on a suitably inclined plane. > Here's a northern-hemisphere sundial for comparison: > > http://sundials.org/faq/setup/bowstring_eq.jpg SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE Nick Spalding <spalding@iol.ie>: >Mike Barnes wrote, in ><UwLzuPwNVwQLFw31@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Easily fixed by mounting it on a suitably inclined plane. True, but if you allow that, *any* sundial can be set to work at any latitude. The salient feature of the sundial in question is that for most (but not all) latitudes, you can mount it on a horizontal plane, because it has its own tilting facility. The truly impressive sundials are the luminous ones, that work at night. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Nick Spalding <spalding@iol.ie>: >>Mike Barnes wrote, in [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > The truly impressive sundials are the luminous ones, that work at night. The ones that use fractal geometry to display the time digitally are a bit nice as well. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > From memory, no. Thank you, Rob. Now I can quit mulling over the question. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> To put my question another way, are the numbers on the sundials used >> in the Southern Hemisphere arranged the same way as those on Northern [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fact, I think strange things start to happen once you cross the Tropics. > I suppose time passes slowly in hot climes. That's because days get longer if you heat them. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> To put my question another way, are the numbers on the sundials used >>> in the Southern Hemisphere arranged the same way as those on Northern [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >That's because days get longer if you heat them. Not only days. The Earth bulges at the equator because it expands there in the heat and shrinks at the poles. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > It's confusing, isn't it? "Clock" comes from a word that meant "bell", > but as far as I know, "clockwise" has always referred to analogue clock > faces and not to the sun, sundials or even bells. Of course "clockwise" refers to clocks. The hands of a clock move in mimicry of the shadow on a northern hemisphere sundial. Early clocks had only one hand, just like the single shadow on the sundial, making the mimicry obvious. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials > increase in the counter-clockwise [CCW] direction? I'm just back from a short holiday, one in which I finally found a sundial outside an old church. (Sundials are not at all common around here.) I took a photograph that confirms what we all suspected: the Roman numerals increase in the anticlockwise direction. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Can I assume that the numbers printed on southern hemisphere sundials >> increase in the counter-clockwise [CCW] direction? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >here.) I took a photograph that confirms what we all suspected: the >Roman numerals increase in the anticlockwise direction. That is excellent news. Thank you for the report, Peter. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Mark Brader: >>> I, on the other hand, make sure to only buy watches that have both an AM [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > *read the time straight off the display*. Nobody in the 21st century -- > hell, nobody living since 1980 -- should need to "learn to tell time". On the contrary, children need to be taught that time is an approximation and that "quarter past six" is anything between 6:10 and 6:20. Our TV channels certainly believe this - see below. >> The hands on my watch now display 9:32 or thereabouts. If it's off >> a minute or two, it dismays me not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at 8:59:57 (allowing time to select the channel), or as near as can > be managed. Absolutely unnecessary with Australian commercial television. Most of their programmes start at least 10 minutes later than the advertised starting time. This is because they are running late, but they can be even later if they have a backlog of adverts to run. Even the advert-less ABC put adverts on when the programme should be starting. SignatureRob Bannister >I have never had need to know that it's 9:32:04 p.m. I do, once a week when I wind, adjust, and set our four chiming clocks. When it's the hour I want all four of those suckers chiming at the same time, and being analog devices affected by temperature and humidity they always drift, so come each Sunday night when I wind I must also adjust and set. To get them started in sync I always set my watch (digital with an analog face) to the NIST and then set each clock within a second of the exact time. Call me anal. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >>I have never had need to know that it's 9:32:04 p.m. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >always set my watch (digital with an analog face) to the NIST and >then set each clock within a second of the exact time. Call me anal. OK, anal. I set the digital timers in this house using as my reference a bedside clock with hands. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England John Varela filted: >>I have never had need to know that it's 9:32:04 p.m. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >always set my watch (digital with an analog face) to the NIST and >then set each clock within a second of the exact time. Call me anal. It's too bad that hanging them all on the same wall doesn't entrain them the way it used to...(didn't Phileas Fogg make inadvertent use of that phenomenon in forcing all his clocks to operate synchronized?)...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > John Varela filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the way it used to...(didn't Phileas Fogg make inadvertent use of that > phenomenon in forcing all his clocks to operate synchronized?)...r What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is actually making them by now. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >> John Varela filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >actually making them by now. I'd be surprised if Sharper Image of lamented memory didn't have them on the market several years ago....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >actually making them by now. My CDMA mobile phone keeps better time than NTP does. (And my NTP stratum-0 is slaved to UTC_{CDMA} anyway.) $ ntpq -p ntp-0.csail.mit.edu remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter ============================================================================== +TRUETIME(0) .CDMA. 0 l 30 64 377 0.000 -1.051 1.945 oPPS(0) .CDMA. 0 l 45 64 377 0.000 0.063 0.015 CDMA-2.MIT.EDU .INIT. 16 u - 1024 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 -time-b.nist.gov .ACTS. 1 u 1 128 357 13.767 -3.231 1.701 +tick.usno.navy. .USNO. 1 u 845 1024 377 25.630 -1.285 2.227 -lampang.csail.m 69.173.64.15 2 u 24 128 375 0.198 0.206 0.024 watchdog.csail. 128.30.2.154 2 u 265 256 376 0.272 -0.789 0.037 ntp-3.csail.mit 128.30.2.154 2 u 69 128 376 0.977 0.171 0.015 Sixty-three microseconds isn't good enough for CDMA. Hmmm. I should find another stratum-1 on campus for backup... all the ones that I used to use are dead, except for bonehed (which is in my building, on my network, and uses the same sort of radio). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >actually making them by now. I see nothing wrong with those clocks that synchronize to longwave time stations such as WWVB, the so-called "atomic" clocks they sell in Walgreen's and other drug/housewares stores. In any 24 hour period the time is not going to drift much between synchs. >Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I see nothing wrong with those clocks that synchronize to longwave time >stations such as WWVB, Says the man who lives close enough to Fort Collins that he can actually decode WWVB over all the QRM. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 Garrett Wollman filted: >>Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Says the man who lives close enough to Fort Collins that he can >actually decode WWVB over all the QRM. In North America, you can call 1-303-499-7111 and get the WWVB broadcast over the telephone....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in Walgreen's and other drug/housewares stores. In any 24 hour > period the time is not going to drift much between synchs. It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the daylight-saving time changes. SignatureFrank ess Frank ess filted: >It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the >daylight-saving time changes. ObArizona: for "amusing" read "infuriating"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > > Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the > daylight-saving time changes. Don't you have to wait up until 2 am to see that? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>> Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Don't you have to wait up until 2 am to see that? The one self-cycling analog-display timepiece visible from my usual waking-time location seems to succumb to its compulsion at 4:00, local. I infer that is built-in to the clock's logic, and it is unintelligent at other hours. I haven't witnessed the compensations of the two digital radio-keyed self-adjusters we have. They probably aren't as spectacular as the whiny hand-wavers. SignatureFrank ess >> Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the > daylight-saving time changes. Especially when this involves spinning forward through eleven hours. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There's been so much ado already 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that any further ado would be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |excessive. | Lori Karkosky kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the >> daylight-saving time changes. > >Especially when this involves spinning forward through eleven hours. And all the more when you've got the alarm function set for some time in those eleven hours....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Frank ess <frank@fshe2fs.com>: >It's a bit amusing to watch a radio-set clock accommodate the daylight- >saving time changes. Yes, that's one of the (AFAIK) undocumented features of such clocks. If ever you feel in need of a chuckle, all you have to do is to take the battery out and put it back in again. Seriously though, one of our clocks recently had a "senior moment" due to a low battery. Our visitor, who had no idea that such clocks existed, spotted it fast-forwarding, and came over all peculiar. He felt like he'd stumbled into an episode of some science-fiction programme. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net>: >What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >actually making them by now. Of course. I bought my first NTP-enabled household clock about twenty years ago. There are now about half a dozen of them scattered round the house. They look exactly like quartz analogue clocks, but keep time correct to the nearest second, adjusting automatically to summer/winter time. This is not new technology. Wall clocks: http://www.aceselectronics.co.uk/section.php?xSec=39 Wrist watches as well: http://www.aceselectronics.co.uk/section.php?xSec=80 SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net>: >>What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.aceselectronics.co.uk/section.php?xSec=80 Is there some confusion here? Those clocks get the time from a time-code radio transmitter. NTP is Network Time Protocol. It is an internet protocol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol The Network Time Protocol (NTP) is a protocol for synchronizing the clocks of computer systems over packet-switched, variable-latency data networks. NTP uses UDP on port 123 as its transport layer. It is designed particularly to resist the effects of variable latency by using a jitter buffer. NTP also refers to a reference software implementation that is distributed by the NTP Public Services Project. NTP is one of the oldest Internet protocols still in use (since before 1985). NTP was originally designed by Dave Mills of the University of Delaware, who still maintains it, along with a team of volunteers. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <mail@peterduncanson.net>: >>Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net>: >>>What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Is there some confusion here? Those clocks get the time from a time-code >radio transmitter. Right. NPL, not NTP. My mistake. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <mail@peterduncanson.net>: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Right. NPL, not NTP. My mistake. And when I mentioned NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) I was referring to their broadcast time hack. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email mikebarnes@bluebottle.com wrote: >They look exactly like quartz analogue clocks, but keep time >correct to the nearest second, adjusting automatically to summer/winter >time. This is not new technology. What you're talking about is not an NTP (network time protocol) clock, but a longwave radio clock. NTP is an Internet protocol like NNTP (Usenet), HTTP (Web), FTP (file transfer, etc) except that it's specifically for time. > What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is > actually making them by now. A couple of days ago I finally bought my first-ever GPS gadget. You know, the sort of thing that displays road maps and sits in your car saying things like "left hand down a bit". I was shocked to find that I had to set the time on it. Shouldn't it be able to figure that out from the satellite signals? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >> What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >> actually making them by now. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I was shocked to find that I had to set the time on it. Shouldn't it be >able to figure that out from the satellite signals? My thoughts exactly. With mine there's an on-screen button you can press to synchronise it with the satellites, but it won't do that automatically. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > > What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is > > actually making them by now. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I was shocked to find that I had to set the time on it. Shouldn't it be > able to figure that out from the satellite signals? Absolutely. I can't imagine why not, unless it's that you've had the device turned off for a long time and it wants help accessing the ephemeris to speed up figuring where the satellites are. Did this happen only one time, the first time you turned it on? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>> What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is >>> actually making them by now. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ephemeris to speed up figuring where the satellites are. Did this > happen only one time, the first time you turned it on? Now there's a thought. Indeed, I only had to set the time once. Now that I think of it, it also took an enormously long time to acquire the signal from a satellite. but now it finds several without trouble. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> John Varela filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What we need is NTP-enabled household clocks. I suppose someone is > actually making them by now. All my clocks work at Normal Temperature and Pressure. Were you referring to a Narcotic Treatment Programme? SignatureRob Bannister >> Lars Eighner: >>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it dismays me not. I have never had need to know that it's 9:32:04 > p.m. I have a sense of knowing if it's morning or evening. Exactly. I may not always know what day it is, but I always know whether it's morning or evening. Day and night are even easier. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Lars Eighner: >>>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Exactly. I may not always know what day it is, but I always know whether >it's morning or evening. Day and night are even easier. The afternoon gives me the most trouble. It is too late to say good morning to people and too early to say good evening. Good afternoon sounds stilted, affected and old-fashioned, at least to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Lars Eighner: >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this > watch means 6:15 AM or PM. I don't have that problem with my watch. When it says 18:15, I know for certain that it's not 6:15 AM. Some people dislike digital watches, I know. With my deteriorating eyesight, I find a large digital display far easier to read than the typical analogue watch. There's an analogue clock next to me as I write this - as it happens, the only 12-hour time indicator in the whole house - and I find that it's becoming increasingly useless as I have trouble distinguishing the big hand from the little hand. Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? Surely it would simplify life enormously for those who prefer analogue clocks. Or is there something inherent in analogue clocks that forces people to think of time in terms of half-days? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? I've seen grandfather clocks that has a rotating disc with sun and stars that showed through a cutout in the face. I don't suppose it was seasonally adjusted, and I assume the sun was always rising at 6 a.m. and setting at 6 p.m. It had another cutout which revealed the phases of the moon. Okay seriously, years ago when I did temp work as a computer operator --- working in the middle of very-large-room sized computers with a tiny fraction of the power of my present desktop --- at one shop they had a large 24-hour wall clock of the supposedly centrally controled by telegraph kind. No one paid any attention to it. (At another place there was a 12-hour clock with little black numbers for the hours and big red numbers for tenths of an hour. They billed by the hour and apparently accounting couldn't be arsed to convert from minutes, so we had to log everything by hours and tenths.) > Surely it would simplify life enormously for those who prefer analogue > clocks. Or is there something inherent in analogue clocks that forces > people to think of time in terms of half-days? SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 27 660.0 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. Lars Eighner wrote, in part: > [...] They billed by the hour and apparently accounting couldn't be > arsed to convert from minutes, so we had to log everything by hours > and > tenths.) For my evening/night job in the 1980s, we had to fill out time sheets using hours and tenths. (Up to eighteen employees, I think, per time sheet.) To this day, I still find myself thinking in terms of 8.1 hours, 12.0 hours, 7.5 hours, etc. IME, it's easier to punch payroll on a comuputer when units of 6 minutes (tenths) are used. Ditto when billing by hours. SignatureMaria Conlon >Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? Shirley, because the human eye can relatively easily discriminate between twelfths of a circle at a glance, but would have more trouble with twenty-fourths. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? > > Shirley, because the human eye can relatively easily discriminate > between twelfths of a circle at a glance, but would have more trouble > with twenty-fourths. They seem to exist: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:24_hour_analog_clock_rua_24_horas_curitib a_brasil.jpg SignatureJames >>> Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >They seem to exist: >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:24_hour_analog_clock_rua_24_horas_curitib a_brasil.jpg Looking at that and at Mike Barnes's example seems to support my hypothesis. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Looking at that and at Mike Barnes's example seems to support my >hypothesis. The 24-hour analogue clocks modeled after 12-hour clocks, with dual markings for each hour so that 0100 and 1300, for example, correspond to the same mark, make good sense to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? > >Shirley, because the human eye can relatively easily discriminate >between twelfths of a circle at a glance, but would have more trouble >with twenty-fourths. But 24-hour analog clocks *are* available: http://www.lawsonwatch.com/fr12intr24ho2.html SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But 24-hour analog clocks *are* available: >http://www.lawsonwatch.com/fr12intr24ho2.html That type can be difficult to read. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? http://24hourtime.info/ SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >>Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? > > http://24hourtime.info/ That makes me curious about one further thing: how come 137s. 0d. doesn't work out to an even numbers of guineas, as I expected it would? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > That makes me curious about one further thing: how come 137s. 0d. doesn't > work out to an even numbers of guineas, as I expected it would? That's a trick question, isn't it? >> That makes me curious about one further thing: how come 137s. 0d. doesn't >> work out to an even numbers of guineas, as I expected it would? > > That's a trick question, isn't it? He's looking to get eleven bob knocked off the price. SignatureJames On 01 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >>> That makes me curious about one further thing: how come 137s. >>> 0d. doesn't work out to an even numbers of guineas, as I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > He's looking to get eleven bob knocked off the price. They could always put another ten bob on, though, couldn't they? (137s 0d does seem an odd way of writing the price, though -- was avoiding pounds some sort of convention for specialist equipment?) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Some people dislike digital watches, I know. I dislike watches in general. I have two or three, but never wear them except for when traveling (if then). I find myself checking the time over and over and over even when there's no reason for me to care about what time it is. SignatureSML > > Some people dislike digital watches, I know. > > I dislike watches in general. I have two or three, but never wear them > except for when traveling (if then). I find myself checking the time > over and over and over even when there's no reason for me to care about > what time it is. You sound like you're bored. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > > Some people dislike digital watches, I know. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You sound like you're bored. It makes me look like I'm bored, but really I'm just compelled. SignatureSML Sara Lorimer <SL560@DELETEcolumbia.edu>: >> > > Some people dislike digital watches, I know. >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >It makes me look like I'm bored, but really I'm just compelled. Would it help to keep your watch in a pocket or handbag (AmE: purse?) rather than on your wrist?. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England It makes me look like I'm bored, but really I'm just compelled. > Would it help to keep your watch in a pocket or handbag (AmE: purse?) > rather than on your wrist?. That's what my cell phone is for. SignatureSML Sara Lorimer <SL560@DELETEcolumbia.edu>: >It makes me look like I'm bored, but really I'm just compelled. >> >> Would it help to keep your watch in a pocket or handbag (AmE: purse?) >> rather than on your wrist?. > >That's what my cell phone is for. So I have to ask, why take the watch at all? Just say no. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Sara Lorimer <SL560@DELETEcolumbia.edu>: > >It makes me look like I'm bored, but really I'm just compelled. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So I have to ask, why take the watch at all? Just say no. I don't, usually, but I do when flying because my phone doesn't work. Or at least it didn't., but now it does.. come to think of it, last time I flew I didn't bring my watch. SignatureSML >> Some people dislike digital watches, I know. > > I dislike watches in general. I have two or three, but never wear them > except for when traveling (if then). I find myself checking the time > over and over and over even when there's no reason for me to care about > what time it is. The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while thinking. When someone asks you a difficult question (such as your own phone number - a number you never dial and therefore have no reason to remember), you look at your watch. Then, while the cogs of your brain slowly whirr, you don't look a complete idiot. I mean, you probably know roughly what time it is, anyway. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com>: >The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while >thinking. When someone asks you a difficult question (such as your own >phone number - a number you never dial and therefore have no reason to >remember), you look at your watch. Then, while the cogs of your brain >slowly whirr, you don't look a complete idiot. I'd be thinking, what kind of idiot writes his phone number on his watch? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England Mike Barnes filted: >Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com>: >>The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I'd be thinking, what kind of idiot writes his phone number on his >watch? Q: "What's your name?" A: [says nothing for a moment but begins counting on his fingers] "Sheldon." Q: "Sheldon is not eight letters." A: "No. [singing] 'Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday, dear--Sheldon'...." ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com>: >> The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'd be thinking, what kind of idiot writes his phone number on his > watch? A younger person would simply assume it was a new type of mobile phone. Older ones would think Buck Rogers or similar words. SignatureRob Bannister Rob Bannister: >> The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while >> thinking. When someone asks you a difficult question ... >> you look at your watch. There's something to that. > I'd be thinking, what kind of idiot writes his phone number on his > watch? Well, if someone asked me what day it was, I used to automatically look at my watch *before I ever had a watch that showed the date*. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Beware the Calends of April also." msb@vex.net -- Peter Neumann > Rob Bannister: >>> The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Well, if someone asked me what day it was, I used to automatically > look at my watch *before I ever had a watch that showed the date*. My watch displays the date, but I can't read it. I still look at my watch, though. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Some people dislike digital watches, I know. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >slowly whirr, you don't look a complete idiot. I mean, you probably know >roughly what time it is, anyway. Glancing at your watch every few minutes will often speed up a verbose interlocutor, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while > thinking. When someone asks you a difficult question (such as your own > phone number - a number you never dial and therefore have no reason to > remember), you look at your watch. Then, while the cogs of your brain > slowly whirr, you don't look a complete idiot. I mean, you probably know > roughly what time it is, anyway. Pipe-smoking is ideal for that purpose. There is a lot of fumbling and digging around in pockets associated with smoking a pipe. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> The main purpose of a wristwatch is as something to look at while >> thinking. When someone asks you a difficult question (such as your own [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Pipe-smoking is ideal for that purpose. There is a lot of fumbling > and digging around in pockets associated with smoking a pipe. Pipes were simply an early form of wristwatch. SignatureRob Bannister >> Some people dislike digital watches, I know. > >I dislike watches in general. I have two or three, but never wear them >except for when traveling (if then). I find myself checking the time >over and over and over even when there's no reason for me to care about >what time it is. The solution I've found to that problem, prompted by a course I took on how to deal with a stroke, is to set the alarm on my phone for the next event I have to deal with, whether it be waking up, going to lunch or watching a particular TV programme. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? It has been done, a few times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_analog_dial -- WH > Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? > Surely it would simplify life enormously for those who prefer analogue > clocks. Or is there something inherent in analogue clocks that forces > people to think of time in terms of half-days? Here you go: http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2958853380084298340vBErLB SignatureDavid Peter Moylan: > Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? As noted, they do exist. But the reason they're not much used is that it would be confusing for people who have "learned to tell time", meaning read a 12-hour analog clock. SignatureMark Brader | "It never occurred to me that a living person could be Toronto | used as a blowtorch, but we admit human beings are a msb@vex.net | bit special, don't we?" --Hal Clement: STILL RIVER > Out of idle curiosity, why does nobody make a 24-hour analogue clock? > Surely it would simplify life enormously for those who prefer analogue > clocks. Or is there something inherent in analogue clocks that forces > people to think of time in terms of half-days? One reason is that until they became widespread people are likely to make mistakes by glancing at it. Particularly in the early hours of the morning. Later they are just going to be confused by the clock that shows 3 at 6 in the morning and 9 at 6 at night. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >Lars Eighner: >> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and a PM indicator, so I won't have to remember whether "6:15 " on this >watch means 6:15 AM or PM. One might ask how often, though, anyone genuinely finds themself unsure as to whether a time is am or pm. It's happened to me about twice in my life (both when I was so tired that I probably wouldn't have noticed anything as subtle as a discrete indicator on my watch anyhow). Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks., Hants.) >>Lars Eighner: >>> The twenty-four hour clock is seldom used outside of the military. In [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >have noticed anything as subtle as a discrete indicator on my watch >anyhow). I keep my phone on 24-hour time, one, to avoid that problem and, two, because I find that scheduling my day is simpler when using that notation. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >The burglar alarm had gone off at seven-sixteen and now it was barely >nine-thirty. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >automatically >take it as PM? Rather like Japanese, there are times when part of an English sentence remains unspoken and needs to be inferred from context. This is one of those. If it were important, we'd probably make it explicit. Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks., Hants.) |
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