Regarding an English love metaphor
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completebeginner - 29 Dec 2009 10:25 GMT Hi,
This is not quite a language usage question, but since I still haven't received a reply from the alt.literature group I thought that maybe I would have better luck in this group. I'm posting it here because I'm assuming that many people that are interested in English usage, might very well also be into literature.
I know that this is going to be somewhat of a "hail Mary" question. Back in high school in an English literature class we read a passage from what I think was a poem (as opposed to regular prose). I don't remember the title nor the author, but I vaguely remember a metaphor in it. It was a love "poem" that compared two lovers to the legs of a compass (the type that is used in drawing circles). And from what I remember of the teacher's explanation, the comparison was in equating the motion of the compass legs (when one moved, the other followed) to two lovers.
I don't even remember the approximate date, buy I'm guessing maybe during the period of Romanticism?
I would really appreciate any names or work titles that may deal with this metaphor, especially the original.
Thanks
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 10:45 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Thanks The poem was probably John Donne's "A Valediction Forbidding Mourning":
http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/mourning.php
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 29 Dec 2009 11:23 GMT >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/mourning.php What an Elleffescent act of remembering!
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 11:43 GMT >>> Hi, >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > What an Elleffescent act of remembering! We read the poem at school and I wondered why Donne used the plural "compasses" when we always referred to the singular "compass". This prompted me to lift the lid of my desk and ferret about in the contents to find my compass and our rather fierce English teacher told me off for doing so.
I'm quite surprised that I do remember this: it was certainly not the only occasion on which she told me off.
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the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 11:59 GMT >>>> Hi, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > to find my compass and our rather fierce English teacher told me off for > doing so. To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses".
 Signature David
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 12:28 GMT >>>>> Hi, >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The > thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses". WIWAL we used the singular for both. And if you Ggle on "geometry set" you'll find that the singular is still generally used in the description of the contents. I see that compasses now have "safety points". I still have the scar on my thumb from trying to make a hole in a conker to put the string through...
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Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 12:58 GMT > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > points". I still have the scar on my thumb from trying to make a hole > in a conker to put the string through... I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night':
http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm
I wonder if anyone's ever been on AUE to ask why it isn't 'Do not go gently into that Good Night'. Gavin and Stacey fans would be able to set them right.
DC --
James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 13:35 GMT >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > gently into that Good Night'. Gavin and Stacey fans would be able to > set them right. Even in my haiku version the word is "gentle":
Do not go gentle, Burn and rave at close of day; Rage against the night.
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LFS - 29 Dec 2009 13:44 GMT >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in > his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': Ah, that's exactly what our English teacher thought: the following week she read us the Thomas poem and I was immediately hooked. It was the first piece of modern poetry that I had encountered and a whole new world opened up for me.
Miss Morris must have been keen on DT. She invited some of us to her flat one evening to listen to "Under Milk Wood" on a series of gramophone records. She was a very good teacher, and taught me writing skills that have stood me in good stead ever since. In one essay, my overuse of exclamation marks prompted the red-inked comment "Vulgar ostentation" which provoked me into even greater punctuation perversity.
> http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm > > I wonder if anyone's ever been on AUE to ask why it isn't 'Do not go > gently into that Good Night'. Gavin and Stacey fans would be able to > set them right. <grin>
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tsuidf - 29 Dec 2009 20:10 GMT <snip>
> Miss Morris must have been keen on DT. She invited some of us to her > flat one evening to listen to "Under Milk Wood" on a series of > gramophone records. She was a very good teacher, and taught me writing > skills that have stood me in good stead ever since. In one essay, my > overuse of exclamation marks prompted the red-inked comment "Vulgar > ostentation" which provoked me into even greater punctuation perversity. Excellent! Given my predilection for them, I shall make 'vulgar ostentation' a mantra, I think.
Best red-inked comment I ever received was on a test paper in medieval Chinese history in which I confused the dates of two major events by, oh, about 300 years or so. My delightful professor wrote in the margin only 'You realise, of course, the magnitude of your error.' Cringe.
But he still invited us all to his home for chilled lemon soup and a lovely summer lunch after the exam.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled froop.
best from Brussels, S.
the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 18:24 GMT > I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in > his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > gently into that Good Night'. Gavin and Stacey fans would be able to > set them right. Son was berating us for watching "Gavin and Stacey" last week, when he got a text from an old school friend complaining because she was unable to stop her parents from watching "Gavin and Stacey". Apparently, young adults can't stand it. We like it.
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Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 18:47 GMT > > I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem > > in his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > unable to stop her parents from watching "Gavin and Stacey". > Apparently, young adults can't stand it. We like it. That's interesting, my 27 yo nephew turned his nose up when we said we liked it as well. I wonder what that's about.
DC --
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 18:49 GMT >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to stop her parents from watching "Gavin and Stacey". Apparently, young > adults can't stand it. We like it. Our young adults like it, as do we. Son, who appreciates these things as he's in the business, says the writing is of very high quality.
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tsuidf - 29 Dec 2009 20:12 GMT > >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in > >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Our young adults like it, as do we. Son, who appreciates these things as > he's in the business, says the writing is of very high quality. Count us out, we don't get it at all. And hence don't like it. But a Welsh colleague quotes bits and pieces of it all the time with great approbation and a general sense of hilarity. Since we like him, we tolerate the quotes and smile wanly when he does this.
S in B
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 22:08 GMT >>>> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >>>> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > approbation and a general sense of hilarity. Since we like him, we > tolerate the quotes and smile wanly when he does this. How can you not love Nessa and her dragon tattoo? Alison Steadman and Rob Brydon are brilliantly cast. I have found Larry Lamb a bit offputting as he's been the villain in East Enders recently.
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the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 22:50 GMT >>>>> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >>>>> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Rob Brydon are brilliantly cast. I have found Larry Lamb a bit > offputting as he's been the villain in East Enders recently. And Neil (the baby). Lush.
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tony cooper - 29 Dec 2009 20:55 GMT >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to stop her parents from watching "Gavin and Stacey". Apparently, young >adults can't stand it. We like it. The "new" season's episodes started on BBCA a few days ago, but we may be a year behind. Gavin has just accepted a job in Wales. David offered a ring to Nessa.
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the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 22:54 GMT >>> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >>> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > be a year behind. Gavin has just accepted a job in Wales. David > offered a ring to Nessa. I believe that's the third series, which is also, in an honourable tradition of British sitcoms giving up on a high, the last. You are only five weeks behind us - the final episode (The Wedding) will be broadcast this week.
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the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 22:59 GMT >>>> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in >>>> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I believe that's the third series, which is also, in an honourable > tradition of British sitcoms giving up on a high, the last. That sentence worried me considerably but I couldn't see why. I do now - it's missing an apostrophe.
- I believe that's the third series, which is also, in an honourable tradition of British sitcoms' giving up on a high, the last.
> You are > only five weeks behind us - the final episode (The Wedding) will be > broadcast this week.
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Nick Spalding - 30 Dec 2009 11:06 GMT the Omrud wrote, in <YQv_m.20028$Ym4.8363@text.news.virginmedia.com> on Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:59:04 GMT:
> >>>> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem in > >>>> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > - I believe that's the third series, which is also, in an honourable > tradition of British sitcoms' giving up on a high, the last. Doesn't the 'of' look after that? I wouldn't mind a comma there though.
> > You are > > only five weeks behind us - the final episode (The Wedding) will be > > broadcast this week.  Signature Nick Spalding BrE/IrE
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 30 Dec 2009 12:09 GMT >the Omrud wrote, in <YQv_m.20028$Ym4.8363@text.news.virginmedia.com> > on Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:59:04 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Doesn't the 'of' look after that? I wouldn't mind a comma there though. Rearranging the sentence to avoid the apostrophe gives, I think:
- I believe that's the third series, which is also, in an honourable tradition of the giving up on a high of British sitcoms, the last.
Which may or may not make sense.
>> > You are >> > only five weeks behind us - the final episode (The Wedding) will be >> > broadcast this week.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 23:07 GMT > >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem > in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > be a year behind. Gavin has just accepted a job in Wales. David > offered a ring to Nessa. I think I read that the US version is under development. Now the crux of G&D is the contrast of the two cultures - both bluecollar, but very different. Hang about, let's Google... right:
"Corden, 29, told The Times: "It's really exciting. The idea is that Gavin will come from New Jersey, which has the same relation to New York as Essex does to London.
"Stacey will be from South Carolina. They meet in Times Square. I hope they keep the British names but they may have to change them." "
http://tinyurl.com/cbaky6 http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and _radio/article3495129.ece
Hmm. I think that would be a story about a boy from New Jersey falling in love with a girl from South Carolina, and that's a different story. What you reckon?
DC, whose Dad used to take him to Barry Island beach as a sprog. --
tony cooper - 30 Dec 2009 00:10 GMT >> >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem >> in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >in love with a girl from South Carolina, and that's a different story. >What you reckon? I reckon I am confused. Is it that you do not understand that there are two completely different cultures, and almost two completely different languages, involved when a Jersey boy gets involved with a flower of South Carolina?
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tony cooper - 30 Dec 2009 00:26 GMT >>> >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's poem >>> in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good Night': [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >different languages, involved when a Jersey boy gets involved with a >flower of South Carolina? I should have added that, despite knowing nothing about the plot of the planned show, I'm sure that the boy will be a "Guido" from an Italian-American family living in South Jersey and not upstate New Jersey.
The current MTV series, "Jersey Shore", has been roundly criticized by various Italian-American organizations for portraying the "Guido and Guidette" culture. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1627353/20091201/story.jhtml
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Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 11:48 GMT > >>> >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's > poem >>> in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Guidette" culture. > http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1627353/20091201/story.jhtml Ah. And then again, ah.
DC --
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 11:44 GMT > >> >> I've wondered if Dylan Thomas had the first verses of Donne's > poem >> in >> his mind when he wrote 'Do not go gentle into that Good [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > I just need you to tell me they're different enough.
DC --
the Omrud - 29 Dec 2009 18:23 GMT >> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The >> thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have the scar on my thumb from trying to make a hole in a conker to put > the string through... I had a special skewer for that. I wonder if it's in my wardrobe upstairs ...
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Chuck Riggs - 30 Dec 2009 14:13 GMT >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The >> thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses". That, to me, is a divider or a pair of dividers. If one arm of what looks like a divider holds a marker of some sort with the other arm ending in a point, the device is a compass.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
John Varela - 30 Dec 2009 20:00 GMT > >> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The > >> thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses". > > That, to me, is a divider or a pair of dividers. If one arm of what > looks like a divider holds a marker of some sort with the other arm > ending in a point, the device is a compass. AOL
Dividers, like scissors, is plural, but compass is never plural.
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James Hogg - 30 Dec 2009 22:12 GMT >>>> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. >>>> The thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Dividers, like scissors, is plural, but compass is never plural. Never? It's worth remembering that this thread started with someone asking about a metaphor in a poem where John Donne wrote this about a pair of lovers:
"If they be two, they are two so As stiff twin compasses are two."
David the Omrud, as we see above, still calls the thing with two points "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses".
And then there's the masonic symbol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_and_Compasses
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John Varela - 31 Dec 2009 17:52 GMT > >>>> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. > >>>> The thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > And then there's the masonic symbol: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_and_Compasses I studied mechanical drawing in high school and in engineering school in the days when we used T-squares and drawing sets, and I am only reporting the terminology I learned. "Pair of compasses" sounds like antique usage to me.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Dec 2009 18:02 GMT >> >>>> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. >> >>>> The thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >only reporting the terminology I learned. "Pair of compasses" sounds >like antique usage to me. Classify me as antique then.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
tony cooper - 31 Dec 2009 18:20 GMT >>> >>>> To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. >>> >>>> The thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Classify me as antique then. How would you write a sentence instructing someone to draw an arc with that instrument?
I would write "Use your compass to draw an arc". "Use your compasses to draw an arc" just doesn't seem right to me.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Nick - 31 Dec 2009 18:22 GMT > How would you write a sentence instructing someone to draw an arc with > that instrument? > > I would write "Use your compass to draw an arc". "Use your compasses > to draw an arc" just doesn't seem right to me. Fine and "correct" to me. A pedantic school teacher might still claim that your version means "draw round the body of your compass".
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Mike Lyle - 02 Jan 2010 18:20 GMT >> How would you write a sentence instructing someone to draw an arc >> with that instrument? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Fine and "correct" to me. A pedantic school teacher might still claim > that your version means "draw round the body of your compass". Yes, it was "pair of compasses" among my pedagogues, too. But I don't think we followed their example with any closeness. I suspect it may be one of those spurious "pair" things...<OED>...yes, Auntie says "...Now gen. in pl.; also pair of compasses." Milton, of course, wouldn't allow the Universe to be encompassed with less than a pair, and golden ones at that: "1667 MILTON P.L. VII. 224 In his hand He took the golden Compasses, prepar'd..to circumscribe This Universe."
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Andrew B. - 29 Dec 2009 17:05 GMT > > We read the poem at school and I wondered why Donne used the plural > > "compasses" when we always referred to the singular "compass". This [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > To me, "compass" is a thing for establishing North, South, etc. The > thing with two points is "a pair of compasses", or just "compasses". I remember being told about a method for making a compass which required a pair of compasses... I suggested that a simpler method would be "throw one of the pair away" (at which point no doubt a tumbleweed blew past).
Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Dec 2009 17:50 GMT >> > We read the poem at school and I wondered why Donne used the >> > plural "compasses" when we always referred to the singular [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > required a pair of compasses... I suggested that a simpler method > would be "throw one of the pair away" Cue instructions for making a small fortune in the newspaper business.
> (at which point no doubt a tumbleweed blew past).
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James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 12:31 GMT >>>> Hi, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I'm quite surprised that I do remember this: it was certainly not the > only occasion on which she told me off. It's no wonder you can't forget Donne's poem after that trauma.
So let us melt, and make no noise, To ferret, Laura, were grotesque; 'Twere profanation of our joys To rummage loudly in our desk.
 Signature James
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 12:50 GMT > >>On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > 'Twere profanation of our joys > To rummage loudly in our desk. More!
--
James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 13:00 GMT >>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS >> <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > More! Maybe I'm not done yet...
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LFS - 29 Dec 2009 13:45 GMT >>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS >>> <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Maybe I'm not done yet... Be still my beating heart...
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James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 13:50 GMT >>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS >>>> <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Be still my beating heart... I found an online explanation for that saying:
"Expression of excitement when seeing the object of one's romantic affections.
"Originally used with the swooning earnestness of woman's poetry of the Romantic period. Now more often used ironically, about suitors who are indisputably unsuitable."
That leaves me wondering...
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LFS - 29 Dec 2009 14:20 GMT >> Be still my beating heart... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That leaves me wondering... Ironic? Moi?
Here's a nice example from a temperance hymnbook, courtesy of Ggle Books (I'm pleased to see that for some scanned volumes you can now click a button for plain text and also cut and paste)
-------------------------------------------------- AND ARE YE SURE THE NEWS IS TRUE. Tune.—" There's nae luck about the house" *' AND are ye sure the news is true, And are ye sure he's sign'd ? I can't believe the joyful tale, And leave my fears behind. If John has sign'd and drinks no more, The happiest wife am I That ever swept a cottage hearth, Or sung a lullaby !
For there's nae luck about the house, There's nae luck at a' And ganes the comfort o' the house, Since he to drink did fa'! Whose eye so kind, whose hand so strong, Whose love so true will shine, If he have bent his heart and hand The total pledge to sign. But what puts breaking in my head ? I trust he'll taste no more; Be still, be still, my beating heart, Hark! hark! he's at the door !
For there's nae luck about the house, There's been nae luck at a', And ganes the comfort o' the house, Since he to drink did fa'! And blessings on the helping hands That send him back to me, Haste, haste, ye little ones, and run, Your father's face to see. And are you sure, my John, you've sign'd ? And are you sure 'tis past? Then mine's the happiest, brightest home Ont emp'rance shores at last!
There's been nae luck about the house, But now 'tis comfort a'! And heaven preserve my ain gudeman, That he may never fa' ----------------------------------------------
I wonder what the tune is.
Another snippet is mystifying:
"Be still, my beating heart, be still," she murmured, as she pressed her hand against one of Ridley's thirty-nine cent corsets. ...
It's supposed to come from "Builder and wood-worker", 1882, but sounds more like one of Peasemarsh's posts.
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James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 14:51 GMT >>> Be still my beating heart... >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > I wonder what the tune is. You can hear it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4tEtNS6Fmo
> Another snippet is mystifying: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It's supposed to come from "Builder and wood-worker", 1882, but sounds > more like one of Peasemarsh's posts. What an amazing publication.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 29 Dec 2009 15:02 GMT >Another snippet is mystifying: > >"Be still, my beating heart, be still," she murmured, as she pressed her >hand against one of Ridley's thirty-nine cent corsets. ... I assume that she was wearing the corset (from Ridley's store or of Ridley brand) and was pressing her hand to her heart.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robin Bignall - 29 Dec 2009 22:40 GMT >>Another snippet is mystifying: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I assume that she was wearing the corset (from Ridley's store or of >Ridley brand) and was pressing her hand to her heart. I prefer to think she's about to rip her bodice off in passion. Much more exciting for old Ridley.
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James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 22:55 GMT >>> Another snippet is mystifying: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I prefer to think she's about to rip her bodice off in passion. Much > more exciting for old Ridley. Ridley had enough excitement in his life. One day in 1931 he arrived at his office in the corset factory. After reading his mail for about an hour, Ridley went to the other side of the small office and found his assistant lying next to his desk, seemingly having died of natural causes (he had worked for Ridley for 51 years). The coroner later discovered two bullet wounds.
Two years later, Ridley himself was beaten to death.
Read the full exciting story here: http://blog.insidetheapple.net/2009/08/e-ridley-sons-and-murder-of-edward.html
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Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 14:56 GMT > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > >><laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Maybe I'm not done yet... Yer man J Donne does actually use that pun in the last line of one of the poems, but I'm not sure which one...
DC --
Jerry Friedman - 29 Dec 2009 16:19 GMT > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > > >><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > Yer man J Donne does actually use that pun in the last line of one of > the poems, but I'm not sure which one... He probably also punned on "More", the hint you gave yourself above.
"A Hymn to God the Father"
http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/hymntogod.htm
I'm not sure who is credited with the epigraph on John Donne and Anne More:
John Donne, Anne Donne: Undone.
-- Jerry Friedman is not posting from Un Lun Dun.
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 18:51 GMT > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > > > >><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > He probably also punned on "More", the hint you gave yourself above. Ah. Yes. Well spotted there, Jerry [turns up collar, whistles softly and gazes at ceiling].
> "A Hymn to God the Father" > > http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/hymntogod.htm That's the one.
> I'm not sure who is credited with the epigraph on John Donne and Anne > More: > > John Donne, > Anne Donne: > Undone. Ah, yes, of course, I'd forgotten Donne's young mistress' name.
DC
--
Jerry Friedman - 30 Dec 2009 16:02 GMT ...
> > I'm not sure who is credited with the epigraph on John Donne and Anne > > More: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ah, yes, of course, I'd forgotten Donne's young mistress' name. Much as I forgot the word "epigram" when I needed it.
I don't know much about Donne, such as whether it was a worse problem that she was his mistress or that he married her.
-- Jerry Friedman
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 17:08 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I don't know much about Donne, such as whether it was a worse problem > that she was his mistress not in the modern sense - as in 'To his Coy Mistress'
> or that he married her. I remember she was his boss's underage daughter and by running off with her he ruined his career chances and they both ended up living in poverty. Later in life JD got religion. All in all, he had a lot in common with Jerry Lee Lewis.
DC --
R H Draney - 31 Dec 2009 04:36 GMT Django Cat filted:
>I remember she was his boss's underage daughter and by running off with >her he ruined his career chances and they both ended up living in >poverty. Later in life JD got religion. All in all, he had a lot in >common with Jerry Lee Lewis. Jerry Lee always had religion; he's just never taken it very seriously....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Django Cat - 31 Dec 2009 08:53 GMT > Django Cat filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Jerry Lee always had religion; he's just never taken it very > seriously....r Hmm. I'm not aware Donne played rock 'n roll piano, NYCTTOI.
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James Hogg - 31 Dec 2009 09:16 GMT >> Django Cat filted: >>> I remember she was his boss's underage daughter and by running [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hmm. I'm not aware Donne played rock 'n roll piano, NYCTTOI. Donne did use the expression "rock me" in Satire VI:
rock me, O sleep, wean'd from thy dear friend's company, In a cradle free from dreams or thoughts, there, Without a lotta shakin' goin' on.
OK, I confess, that last line isn't genuine.
 Signature James
Django Cat - 31 Dec 2009 09:45 GMT > > > Django Cat filted: > > > > I remember she was his boss's underage daughter and by running [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > OK, I confess, that last line isn't genuine. Donne also had a deep and spiritual affinity with fish and chip shops which, like fun fairs, have always played an important part in rock 'n roll culture in the UK. Hence:
"Batter my heart, three-person'd God,"
DC I'm leaving now... --
Roland Hutchinson - 30 Dec 2009 05:00 GMT >> > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS >> > >><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Anne Donne: > Undone. ...Yet not undone when all was said, Anne Donne.
 Signature Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 11:50 GMT > >> > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > >> > >><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > ...Yet not undone when all was said, Anne Donne. Let's face it, our man missed a brilliant career as a standup gag writer.
DC --
James Hogg - 30 Dec 2009 12:10 GMT >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS >>>>>>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Let's face it, our man missed a brilliant career as a standup gag > writer. "OK, there's this guy, and he thinks he's an island, right? And he thinks he's being washed by the sea when all at once he hears the bell ring and he thinks to himself, "Who the hell can that be?"
 Signature James
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 12:13 GMT > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > >>>>>>><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > thinks he's being washed by the sea when all at once he hears the bell > ring and he thinks to himself, "Who the hell can that be?" Ba-bom!
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James Hogg - 30 Dec 2009 15:22 GMT >>>>> On Dec 29, 9:56 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.co.uk> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > Ba-bom! Wait for the punchline, missus!
Well, he can't see anybody there, but he hears a booming voice say, "Don't ask!" And he's that terrified, he wets himself, and the voice says, "I bet you wish you were continent now."
 Signature James
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 12:14 GMT > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > >>>>>>><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > thinks he's being washed by the sea when all at once he hears the bell > ring and he thinks to himself, "Who the hell can that be?" (Or better)
Dong!!!
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Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 12:23 GMT > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:45:10 +0000, LFS > >>>>>>><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > thinks he's being washed by the sea when all at once he hears the bell > ring and he thinks to himself, "Who the hell can that be?" (Or better)
Dong!!!
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Jerry Friedman - 31 Dec 2009 15:20 GMT ...
> >>> John Donne, Anne Donne: Undone. > >> ...Yet not undone when all was said, Anne Donne. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > thinks he's being washed by the sea when all at once he hears the bell > ring and he thinks to himself, "Who the hell can that be?" But since he's still alone, he unprints himself.
-- Jerry Friedman
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 13:29 GMT >>>>> Hi, >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > 'Twere profanation of our joys > To rummage loudly in our desk. How charming! Thank you, Mr Hogg: I shall immediately add that verse to the small collection of poetic tributes which have been paid to me over the years in aue.
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 11:55 GMT > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/mourning.php Well spotted. I love Donne, but I'd wrongly remembered the compasses conceit being in The Good Morrow.
DC --
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 12:06 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I know that this is going to be somewhat of a "hail Mary" question. What's a 'hail Mary question'?
> Back in high school in an English literature class we read a passage > from what I think was a poem (as opposed to regular prose). I don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the motion of the compass legs (when one moved, the other followed) to > two lovers. In fact the comparision is that while one (the man, presumably) moves around out in the world, he remains fixed to the other compass leg, (the woman) the unmoving and unchanging centre of his universe.
> I don't even remember the approximate date, buy I'm guessing maybe > during the period of Romanticism? No - Laura (LFS) spotted it (unless another poet stole Donne's idea later). John Donne lived 1572 - 1631, and is counted amongst the 'metaphysical poets' who were characterised by brilliant use of language and extended metaphors (like the compasses one) which are often based on exploiting ambiguous language. The Romantics were a lot later.
> I would really appreciate any names or work titles that may deal with > this metaphor, especially the original. Donne's your man, and he's all over the net.
DC --
tony cooper - 29 Dec 2009 13:55 GMT >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >What's a 'hail Mary question'? Something that you toss out in little hopes of getting a response.
In US football a "hail Mary pass" is a football thrown into the end zone with little hope that it will be caught, but as a play of desperation when time is about to run out and the thrower's team is behind.
A famous one was Doug Flutie's pass that won the game for Boston College. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ykWbu2Gl0
The reference a "hail Mary" is that you do it and pray that it will work.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Django Cat - 29 Dec 2009 14:58 GMT > >> Hi, > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The reference a "hail Mary" is that you do it and pray that it will > work. Thank you.
I haven't warmed up from last night's abandonned sports event yet.
DC --
Jerry Friedman - 29 Dec 2009 16:23 GMT > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:06:29 GMT, "Django Cat" > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > The reference a "hail Mary" is that you do it and pray that it will > work. I wonder whether there's a secondary reference to the fact that Hail Mary passes are usually long (otherwise they wouldn't be so desperate), so as an exaggeration there's time to say a Hail Mary while the pass is in the air.
Also, the phrase was in use before Doug Flutie's last-second miracle, but I suspect some of the people who applied the phrase thought it especially appropriate because Boston College is a Catholic school.
-- Jerry Friedman
James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 16:31 GMT >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:06:29 GMT, "Django Cat" >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > but I suspect some of the people who applied the phrase thought it > especially appropriate because Boston College is a Catholic school. I'd expect it to be common in the Notre Dame team too.
The earliest quote in the OED is from 1972:
"1972 Sporting News 15 Jan. 8/2, I asked if he really saw Pat or if he was throwing it away. He [sc. Roger Staubach] said, 'Let's just call it my Hail Mary Play.'"
 Signature James
tony cooper - 29 Dec 2009 20:50 GMT >> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:06:29 GMT, "Django Cat" >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >but I suspect some of the people who applied the phrase thought it >especially appropriate because Boston College is a Catholic school. I said it was *a* famous one. If you want more examples, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_Hail_Marys_in_American_football
Bradshaw's pass to Franco Harris in 1972 was a "Hail Mary", but is known as "the Immaculate Reception".
According to Wiki, the term emerged in 1975 about Staubach to Pearson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hail_Mary__(American_football_game) Staubach is a Catholic.
"The term "Hail Mary pass" was used for the first time by Roger Staubach following the game in a post-game interview. Previous to this play, a last-second desperation pass had been called several names, most notably the "Alley-Oop". As Staubach, who had been hit immediately after throwing the ball and didn't see its ending, was asked about the play and he said, "You mean [Pearson] caught the ball and ran in for the touchdown? It was just a Hail Mary pass; a very, very lucky play." Staubach told reporters that he closed his eyes, threw the ball as hard as he could, and said a Hail Mary prayer."
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman - 30 Dec 2009 16:11 GMT > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:23:15 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > I said it was *a* famous one. You seem to think I was disagreeing with you about something, but I wasn't.
> If you want more examples, see > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_Hail_Marys_in_America... I should have guessed something like that would exist.
> Bradshaw's pass to Franco Harris in 1972 was a "Hail Mary", but is > known as "the Immaculate Reception". ...
I'm seeing a theme here.
For those who don't follow American football, "Immaculate" is irony-- there was a good deal of controversy over whether the pass was legally caught. Of course you can read about it at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_reception
-- Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum - 29 Dec 2009 17:12 GMT >>> I know that this is going to be somewhat of a "hail Mary" >>> question. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The reference a "hail Mary" is that you do it and pray that it will > work. And since there's so much time for everybody to see where it's going, you pray that if somebody catches it, it'll be someone on your team.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If I may digress momentarily from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |the mainstream of this evening's Palo Alto, CA 94304 |symposium, I'd like to sing a song |which is completely pointless. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Tom Lehrer (650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Peter Moylan - 29 Dec 2009 13:21 GMT > And from what I > remember of the teacher's explanation, the comparison was in equating > the motion of the compass legs (when one moved, the other followed) to > two lovers. This verse
If they be two, they are two so As stiff twin compasses are two ; Thy soul, the fix'd foot, makes no show To move, but doth, if th' other do.
does seem to support what your teacher said, but it leaves me wondering whether Donne had any experience with compasses. The whole point of the circle-drawing device is that the fix'd foot moveth not even if th' other do.
If the two move in sympathy, you're going to get a rather wonky circle.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
James Hogg - 29 Dec 2009 13:31 GMT >> And from what I remember of the teacher's explanation, the >> comparison was in equating the motion of the compass legs (when one [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If the two move in sympathy, you're going to get a rather wonky > circle. It stays at the same point but it doth actually rotate and lean outward the more the other leg distances itself from the centre:
It leans, and hearkens after it, And grows erect, as that comes home.
 Signature James
LFS - 29 Dec 2009 13:47 GMT >> And from what I >> remember of the teacher's explanation, the comparison was in equating [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > If the two move in sympathy, you're going to get a rather wonky circle. Which thought is exactly why I was rummaging in my desk to find my compass and experiment...
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
HVS - 29 Dec 2009 22:16 GMT On 29 Dec 2009, Peter Moylan wrote
>> And from what I >> remember of the teacher's explanation, the comparison was in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > whole point of the circle-drawing device is that the fix'd foot > moveth not even if th' other do. If you use compasses to measure distances rather than to draw circles, aren't they called something else -- dividers, or callipers?
> If the two move in sympathy, you're going to get a rather wonky > circle. There be more use for compasses than drawin' circles, lad.
 Signature Cheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
tony cooper - 29 Dec 2009 22:53 GMT >On 29 Dec 2009, Peter Moylan wrote > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >There be more use for compasses than drawin' circles, lad. I have both compasses and dividers. They are different. My compasses have a leg with a drawing tool. Some accept lead and some have a pen tool. My dividers have a metal points on each leg. I use compasses to draw arcs and circles, and dividers to step-off distances.
I also have a combination set with a fixed metal point in one leg, and a pen tool, a lead holder, and a metal point tool that can be inserted in the other leg.
I have calipers in the garage in the tool cabinet. My calipers measure thickness.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
R H Draney - 29 Dec 2009 23:10 GMT HVS filted:
>If you use compasses to measure distances rather than to draw >circles, aren't they called something else -- dividers, or >callipers? > >There be more use for compasses than drawin' circles, lad. Finding north, for example....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Django Cat - 30 Dec 2009 11:50 GMT > HVS filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Finding north, for example....r And making holes in conkers.
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Don Phillipson - 29 Dec 2009 13:25 GMT > Back in high school in an English literature class we read a passage > from what I think was a poem (as opposed to regular prose). I don't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I would really appreciate any names or work titles that may deal with > this metaphor, especially the original. The key words are Conceit and Metaphysical. John Donne was the most advanced of the Metaphysical Poets (early 17th century, cf. also Traherne and others listed in textbooks.) Their clever and original ideas (like the compass points, separate but united) were categorized by literary theoreticians as Conceits.
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
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