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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Waugh: stones and cobble
Hello: I don't see why Waugh uses both "stones" and "cobble" here, as "cobble" seems to mean itself a "stone," in some contexts. Does "cobble" here mean "paved area/space, the road surface?" Does he mean stone fragments were strewn around on the street surface? --- We returned at Oxford and once again gillyflowers bloomed under my windows and the chestnut lit the streets and the warm stones strewed their flakes upon the cobble; but it was not as it had been; there was mid-winter in Sebastian's heart. Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 746 ---- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 746 >---- "The cobble" would be the surface of a road made of cobblestones. A cobblestone is rounded. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone The phrase "the warm stones strewed their flakes" is perplexing. I have a paperback version of the book so the page number you quote doesn't work for me. Could you tell me the total number of pages in your copy of the book please? Then with some simple arithmetic I should be able to convert your page number 746 into the equivalent in my copy.  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Dec 29, 7:03 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >I don't see why Waugh uses both "stones" and "cobble" here, as > >"cobble" seems to mean itself a "stone," in some contexts. Does [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > copy of the book please? Then with some simple arithmetic I should be > able to convert your page number 746 into the equivalent in my copy. That's because I've got eight EW novels in one book: Please try pages around 154-164 based on editions at Google Books. It's five pages from the end of Part I. Thank you. Marius Hancu >On Dec 29, 7:03 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Please try pages around 154-164 based on editions at Google Books. >It's five pages from the end of Part I. Thanks. It is page 128 in my copy. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > The phrase "the warm stones strewed their flakes" is perplexing. Perhaps the stones of which the buildings were built were flaking and the flakes were falling on the cobblestones. > I have a paperback version of the book so the page number you quote > doesn't work for me. Could you tell me the total number of pages in your > copy of the book please? Then with some simple arithmetic I should be > able to convert your page number 746 into the equivalent in my copy. SignatureLes (BrE) > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > their flakes upon the cobble; but it was not as it had been; there was > mid-winter in Sebastian's heart. "cobbles" is a form of paving with large, rounded stones, still seen in towns throughout Europe. There's a section of cobbled street a mile from me here at home, in a small village. I don't understand what's going on in this sentence. Does the chestnut "light" the streets by being burned, or by its flowers? Perhaps the flakes are those of the chestnut flowers. SignatureDavid > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > chestnut "light" the streets by being burned, or by its flowers? > Perhaps the flakes are those of the chestnut flowers. No, I think Waugh is deliberately differentiating the warm Cotswold stone of Oxford *buildings* from the cobble stones of the street, and he *is* suggesting that it's stone flakes that are falling from the buildings into the road (that bit Shirley counts as poetic license, and I don't understand how the chestnut lit the streets and gillyflower was new to me...) DC -- >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >"light" the streets by being burned, or by its flowers? Perhaps the >flakes are those of the chestnut flowers. I would assume that the chestnut "lights" the street because chestnut blossoms are conventuionally called "candles". I don't get the strewn flakes of stone, though. Limestone (such as college buildings may be made of) can flake over time and as a result of weathering, but not as prolifically as this suggests. There wouldn't be much of Oxford left by now. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Katy Jennison <woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote in message news:abtjj55k10548cvg4ic2khdq1ltvjel8mn@4ax.com... > . . . don't get the strewn > flakes of stone, though. Limestone (such as college buildings may be > made of) can flake over time and as a result of weathering, but not as > prolifically as this suggests. There wouldn't be much of Oxford left > by now. This was the case, when Oxford was as Waugh knew it in 1920 or 1960. Most particularly, the fence surrounding the Radcliffe Camera building was built 300 years earlier with huge carved stone heads every 10 metres. By the time these were replaced (1980s?) so much of the material had been lost they had become shapeless and anonymous lumps. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > Katy Jennison <woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote in message >news:abtjj55k10548cvg4ic2khdq1ltvjel8mn@4ax.com... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >these were replaced (1980s?) so much of the material had been >lost they had become shapeless and anonymous lumps. The ones round the Sheldonian, yes, but it's not clear to me that they were eroded by noticeable-sized bits actually flaking off. The effect was more like being gradually worn away -- or indeed scrubbed, as this suggests: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:LlR6Q6WEctwJ:www.headington.org.uk/oxon/bro ad/history/emperors.htm or http://tinyurl.com/ychyhga I don't think you'd have actually seen actual flakes of stone on the actual cobbles. ICBW, of course. I wasn't actually there at the time. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >prolifically as this suggests. There wouldn't be much of Oxford left >by now. That is puzzling. There is nothing I can find in a quick skim through the pages that suggests that recent repair work had been done on the building that might have left flakes of stone. I wonder whether the flakes might have accumulated over a long period of time, years perhaps. If they had fallen on a cobbled street they might have survived the normal street sweeping of the time. If the sun was shining the flakes might have shown up against the dark cobbles. I'm not totally convinced by that suggestion, though. Cobbles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >>> Hello: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > I'm not totally convinced by that suggestion, though. Well, I still go with poetic license. Waugh doesn't want us to literally think the streets are ankle-deep in stone chips, he's making a point about the crumbling venerablity of Oxford. Or maybe venerable crumbleability. One of those guys. DC -- >>>>> Hello: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > DC If a comma is added after 'under my windows' and after 'warm stones' would this make more sense? We returned at Oxford and once again gillyflowers bloomed under my windows, and the chestnut lit the streets and the warm stones, strewed their flakes upon the cobble; but it was not as it had been; there was mid-winter in Sebastian's heart. >If a comma is added after 'under my windows' and after 'warm stones' >would this make more sense? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > strewed their flakes upon the cobble; but it was not as it had > been; there was mid-winter in Sebastian's heart. That's clever. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>> Hello: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > strewed their flakes upon the cobble; but it was not as it had > been; there was mid-winter in Sebastian's heart. The question seems to be how to interpret "flakes". Until now we have assumed that they are flakes of stone. However, readings based on that assumption are, er, flakey. If we take "flakes" to mean petals from the blossom of gillyflowers and chestnut trees then the whole thing begins to make sense. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Dec 29, 11:31 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >>>>>> Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > blossom of gillyflowers and chestnut trees then the whole thing begins > to make sense. Thought, of course, about it, however's not in the text:-[ Thank you all. Marius Hancu >On Dec 29, 11:31 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: >> The question seems to be how to interpret "flakes". Until now we have >> assumed that they are flakes of stone. However, readings based on that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Thought, of course, about it, however's not in the text:-[ Well, if this is a particular function of the first hot sunshine on stone after the end of winter, corresponding with chestnut blossom and the start of the Hilary term, I'll go and have a look next May, and see if I get showered in stone flakes. Perhaps someone could remind me nearer the time. We could even arrange a Stoned Boink. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> On Dec 29, 11:31 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > see if I get showered in stone flakes. Perhaps someone could remind > me nearer the time. We could even arrange a Stoned Boink. I'm certainly up for that! SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> Hello: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Cobbles: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone Does your edition have the "returned at Oxford" that Marius quotes or the more likely "returned to Oxford"? The edition he quotes from seems riddled with misprints and typos and hardly worth commenting on until someone has verified the quotations as pukka. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> Hello: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >The edition he quotes from seems riddled with misprints and typos and hardly >worth commenting on until someone has verified the quotations as pukka. "We returned to Oxford..." SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> Hello: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > "We returned to Oxford..." My edition is 1945 published by Little, Brown and Company, BOSTON. 'But the shadows were closing round Sebastian. We returned to Oxford and once again the gillyflowers.....' >>>>>>> Hello: >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >'But the shadows were closing round Sebastian. >We returned to Oxford and once again the gillyflowers.....' Mine is a Penguin paperback edition first published 1962 and reprinted 2000. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>> Hello: >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > 'But the shadows were closing round Sebastian. > We returned to Oxford and once again the gillyflowers.....' So that's two misprints in the first line. I vote Marius gets a proper edition before reading further. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>>>>> Hello: >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > So that's two misprints in the first line. I vote Marius gets a proper > edition before reading further. I think Marius is typing in the passages he asks questions about. Mistakes happen. SignatureJames >>>>>>>>> Hello: >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > I think Marius is typing in the passages he asks questions about. > Mistakes happen. When he's made an error he usually acknowledges it promptly. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "light" the streets by being burned, or by its flowers? Perhaps the > flakes are those of the chestnut flowers. Let's suppose the trees are horse chestnuts with the enormous inflorescences that we call their 'candles'. The rest follows. The flakes of stone are obviously fallen from the stone buildings. If you have ever observed the condition of stonework, especially to limestone, in city centres you can't have failed to notice the spalling caused by acidic air. This was far worse before the introduction of smoke controls. -- franzi |
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