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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Pronunciation of "banal"
I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it was probably an error. Does anyone here say BANE-uhl, or know where it's regarded as normal? (FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.)  SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England On 29 Dec 2009, Mike Barnes wrote > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's > always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the > dictionary I thought it was probably an error. > > Does anyone here say BANE-uhl, or know where it's regarded as > normal? According to Burchfield, it was "Once pronounced" BANE-al or BANN-al, and the second-syllable stress is now current. He doesn't say when the change occurred, but notes that both Fowler and Gowers scorned it "as an unnecessary word 'imported from France by a class of writers whose jaded taste relished novel or imposing jargon'". Maybe (once again) AmEng has preserved the earlier pronunciation. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed On 29 Dec 2009, HVS wrote > On 29 Dec 2009, Mike Barnes wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Maybe (once again) AmEng has preserved the earlier > pronunciation. Forgot to mention -- Fowler/Gowers notes that four pronunciations "have some dictionary recognition", and recommends (if it is to be used at all) "the fully anglicized" pronunciation which I read as BANN-al. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS filted: >On 29 Dec 2009, Mike Barnes wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Maybe (once again) AmEng has preserved the earlier pronunciation. I used the buh-NAHL pronunciation in a song lyric about thirty years ago (rhyming it with "all")...the only American I can recall hearing "BANE-uhl" from was Frank Zappa, in a short skit he once did with Mike Nesmith of the Monkees (Frank and Mike played one another, and Frank-as-Mike asked Mike-as-Frank if other people found his music "banal and insipid")....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.) I've always said and thought of it as buh-NAHL. It was a favourite word of the late Malcolm Muggeridge, who pronounced it "buh-NAAAAHL". SignatureLes (BrE) > > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've always said and thought of it as buh-NAHL. It was a favourite word of > the late Malcolm Muggeridge, who pronounced it "buh-NAAAAHL". I say BAY-null. Buh-NAHL sounds affected to me. (AmE) SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I say BAY-null. Buh-NAHL sounds affected to me. (AmE) You, Mr Varela, have a relatively clear stance on the matter: I think there's no good rationale To utter this word with a snarl. I say it as BAY-null And find it quite AY-null To hear it pronounced as buh-NAHL. SignatureJames > >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And find it quite AY-null > To hear it pronounced as buh-NAHL. Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? SignatureJohn "speechless" Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? I do. But not "biennale" or "canal". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >>Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > >I do. But not "biennale" or "canal". Quite so. Bear in mind that most* of us don't pronounce "snarl" rhotically. * most, many, some, at least two of us. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens wrote, in <b2dnj5d55qoprshso9j8561f4c63ra0qmr@4ax.com> on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:15:07 +0000: > >John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: > >>Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > * most, many, some, at least two of us. Make that three. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Wood Avens wrote, in <b2dnj5d55qoprshso9j8561f4c63ra0qmr@4ax.com> > on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:15:07 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Make that three. Someone cue Henry Higgins. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >> Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > > I do. But not "biennale" or "canal". Pretty much the same for me down under, although I'm not sure about "biennale". SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >> >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? And chorale. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > >And chorale. Okay....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? [snip] > Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? The first and last but not the second unless we are non-rhotic. We also rhyme fillet and skillet SignatureRay UK musika wrote on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:33:41 GMT: > [snip] >> >> Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > The first and last but not the second unless we are > non-rhotic. > We also rhyme fillet and skillet I do too but it's surprising how many TV cooks and restaurant owners say "fillay" /filEi/. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> We also rhyme fillet and skillet > > I do too but it's surprising how many TV cooks and restaurant owners > say "fillay" /filEi/. That is an alternate pronunciation, but only for the food item meaning. That can also be spelled "filet". In fact, it quite often is. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> We also rhyme fillet and skillet >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > meaning. That can also be spelled "filet". In fact, it quite often > is. I'd go a little further and say that it is only pronounced 'fillay' when it is spelt '/filet/' (preferably in italics), because then it is the French word that you are using. The English word is 'fillet' which rhymes with 'skillet'. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> We also rhyme fillet and skillet >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That is an alternate pronunciation, but only for the food item meaning. > That can also be spelled "filet". In fact, it quite often is. As in gefilete fish. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >>>> We also rhyme fillet and skillet >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >As in gefilete fish. I wonder if that goes well with filé gumbo....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >>>>> We also rhyme fillet and skillet [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I wonder if that goes well with filé gumbo....r Son-of-a-gun, gonna have big fun. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > musika wrote on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:33:41 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I do too but it's surprising how many TV cooks and restaurant owners > say "fillay" /filEi/. Yes, that's why I mentioned it. It was a sort of rebuttal of Skitt's "We Leftpondians try to speak English, not copy the French." SignatureRay UK > James Silverton typed: >>> [snip] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yes, that's why I mentioned it. It was a sort of rebuttal of Skitt's > "We Leftpondians try to speak English, not copy the French." Touché. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> James Silverton typed: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Touché. This reminds me of the pondial difference in the pronunciation of the name Maurice. Over here it's identical with Morris. SignatureJames >This reminds me of the pondial difference in the pronunciation of the >name Maurice. Over here it's identical with Morris. That's what it is here, except among people who come from Mauritius. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > This reminds me of the pondial difference in the pronunciation of the > name Maurice. Over here it's identical with Morris. Really? My aunt had a brother-in-law named Maurice Juge, whose father was a Cajun. Oddly enough for New Orleans, his name was pronounced identically with Morris. I am surprised to learn that Cajuns were English. (The mother's maiden name was Vonderhaar, which doesn't sound at all English.) SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> This reminds me of the pondial difference in the pronunciation of >> the name Maurice. Over here it's identical with Morris. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > English. (The mother's maiden name was Vonderhaar, which doesn't > sound at all English.) So there are two ways of pronouncing Maurice in the USA? I didn't know that. Maybe it's because it's only the French-sounding version that attracts my attention. SignatureJames >>> This reminds me of the pondial difference in the pronunciation of >>> the name Maurice. Over here it's identical with Morris. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that. Maybe it's because it's only the French-sounding version that > attracts my attention. There's two in Canada. And you can't do the obvious thing and assume that the pronounciation any individual Maurice uses is related to his mother tongue. Mostly, but not invariably, the anglophones use the 'Morris' pronounciation. I knew someone once who claimed that among his extended family, the surname 'Benoit' had three pronunciations - Benwah, Benoyt, and Bennett. SignatureCheryl >So there are two ways of pronouncing Maurice in the USA? I didn't know >that. Maybe it's because it's only the French-sounding version that >attracts my attention. Maurice Cohen[1] was definitely a "Morris", according to friends who worked for him. (He and his brother, Israel "Ike" Cohen, owned a radio station in Lowell, Mass., which was for many years a stepping-stone to radio careers in bigger markets like Boston and Providence.) -GAWollman [1] I almost wrote "the late" but it appears that he is still living. Ike died many years ago. A Google search reveals at least three other people of the same name who didn't own WCAP in Lowell, one of whom was a Mossad agent. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 > musika wrote on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:33:41 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I do too but it's surprising how many TV cooks and restaurant owners > say "fillay" /filEi/. That really got me thinking. It seems I always pronounce the t with fish and with the verb form, but that I am more likely to say feel-lay when discussing beef or pork. It's as though I am taking a "fillet of beef" to mean any piece of boneless beef, while a "fillay of beef" means the entire piece of meat designated "fillet" on the meat chart. SignatureRob Bannister >> musika wrote on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:33:41 GMT: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >to mean any piece of boneless beef, while a "fillay of beef" means the >entire piece of meat designated "fillet" on the meat chart. I feel more secure about what I'll be getting when I see "filet mignon" on the menu, a type of fillet. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > musika wrote on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:33:41 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I do too but it's surprising how many TV cooks and restaurant owners >say "fillay" /filEi/. Isn't that "filet" (as opposed to "fillet")? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > [snip] >> Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > > The first and last but not the second unless we are non-rhotic. > > We also rhyme fillet and skillet Throw the fillay into the skillay. SignatureRob Bannister musika filted: >> Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > >The first and last but not the second unless we are non-rhotic. > >We also rhyme fillet and skillet We don't, but we rhyme ballet and valet....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > We also rhyme fillet and skillet A connecting structure, as for instance a fairing between an aircraft wing and the fuselage, is a fillet that rhymes with skillet. I guess that is #4 below. fillet ??/?f?l?t; usually f??le? for 1, 10/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fil-it; usually fi-ley for 1, 10] Show IPA Use fillet in a Sentence See web results for fillet See images of fillet ?noun 1. Cookery. a. a boneless cut or slice of meat or fish, esp. the beef tenderloin. b. a piece of veal or other meat boned, rolled, and tied for roasting. 2. a narrow band of ribbon or the like worn around the head, usually as an ornament; headband. 3. any narrow strip, as wood or metal. 4. a strip of any material used for binding. 5. Bookbinding. a. a decorative line impressed on a book cover, usually at the top and bottom of the back. b. a rolling tool for impressing such lines. 6. Architecture. a. Also called list. a narrow flat molding or area, raised or sunk between larger moldings or areas. b. a narrow portion of the surface of a column left between adjoining flutes. 7. Anatomy. lemniscus. 8. a raised rim or ridge, as a ring on the muzzle of a gun. 9. Metallurgy. a concave strip forming a rounded interior angle in a foundry pattern. ?verb (used with object) 10. Cookery. a. to cut or prepare (meat or fish) as a fillet. b. to cut fillets from. 11. to bind or adorn with or as if with a fillet. 12. Machinery. to round off (an interior angle) with a fillet. Also, filet (for defs. 1, 10). Origin: 1300?50; ME filet < AF, MF, equiv. to fil thread + -et -et SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela wrote, in <dx0mOwXzR-pn2-UdwldTR65iZP@localhost> on 31 Dec 2009 17:35:05 GMT: > > [snip] > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > aircraft wing and the fuselage, is a fillet that rhymes with > skillet. I guess that is #4 below. More like #12 shirley. > fillet > ??/?f?l?t; usually f??le? for 1, 10/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > See images of fillet > ?noun > 4. a strip of any material used for binding. > 12. Machinery. to round off (an interior angle) with a fillet. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > John Varela wrote, in <dx0mOwXzR-pn2-UdwldTR65iZP@localhost> > on 31 Dec 2009 17:35:05 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> 12. Machinery. to round off (an interior angle) with a fillet. I certainly know the sense of when you are fabricating something by welding you might strengthen a joint (say you've fastened two plates together at right angles) by using the welder to build up metal inside the angle between the two. I'd call that a "fillet". SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk > John Varela wrote, in <dx0mOwXzR-pn2-UdwldTR65iZP@localhost> > on 31 Dec 2009 17:35:05 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> 12. Machinery. to round off (an interior angle) with a fillet. Number 12 is the verb, not the noun. Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, for example, fillay a fish? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation >for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, >for example, fillay a fish? Absolutely. All culinary uses have the same pronunciation in my dialect. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation >for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, >for example, fillay a fish? I was quite amused to see that the menu in Macdonalds in Moscow offered "filay o feesh" SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> John Varela wrote, in <dx0mOwXzR-pn2-UdwldTR65iZP@localhost> >> on 31 Dec 2009 17:35:05 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, >for example, fillay a fish? Yes. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation >> for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, >> for example, fillay a fish? > > Yes. Supplementary question: is this done with a filetting knife, or with a fillay-ing knife? (Or do you just duck the question and use a butcher's knife? Now that I think of it, I don't have a specialised tool for this job. I think fishermen do, though.) SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation >>> for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > think of it, I don't have a specialised tool for this job. I think > fishermen do, though.) Maybe it's just a local usage, but I'm sure they fillet a fish here; they don't fillay one. But if you buy a piece to eat, you buy a fillay. And I know that people who work in fishplants have these scary super-sharp knives, but I don't know what they're called. I'd guess filetting knives. Students used to start working at that at the end of the school year, and sometimes they'd turn up with a massive bandage on a hand. Those knives were sharp. SignatureCheryl >>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 09:39:25 +1100, Peter Moylan >>> <gro.nalyomp@retep> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > year, and sometimes they'd turn up with a massive bandage on a hand. > Those knives were sharp. My aunt who worked at Oscar Mayer called them "boning knives". That was back in the '50s. And many workers were short of digits. >>> Getting back to our sheep, do people who use the French pronunciation >>> for a piece of meat use the same pronunciation for the verb. Would you, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >think of it, I don't have a specialised tool for this job. I think >fishermen do, though.) Ducking that question, I always ask the fish monger to fillet the fish I buy, in spite of the freshness that is lost. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me >>>>> it's always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? Some of us do. I wrote that limerick in Standard Southern British, using the Penguin Rhyming Dictionary. However, I myself rhyme both "banal" and "rationale" with "canal", whereas my "snarl" has a different vowel and a final....r. SignatureJames >>>>>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's >>>>>> always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "rationale" with "canal", whereas my "snarl" has a different vowel and > a final....r. I knew you were secretly American. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >>>>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? They blend together nicely. SignatureRob Bannister >> >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >> >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? Yes. What do you do? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? > > Yes. > > What do you do? For me, they're /&l/ : rationale, pal, Sal, shall /Arl/: snarl, Carl /Al/ : banal, doll and none of them are in the class with /Ol/ : ball, fall, tall, mall, thrall SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither |Liberty nor Safety. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > /Ol/ : ball, fall, tall, mall, thrall And none of them would fit in the last class for me either. For me "rationale" could go either way but the others would be different. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >> >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Do you rightponders really rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal? I rhyme the first two. I think I've only ever said "banal" once: I pronounced it "baynl and everyone laughed at me. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >>> been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I say BAY-null. Buh-NAHL sounds affected to me. (AmE) I'm not sure whether I would even understand "baynull" on first hearing. SignatureRob Bannister Mike Barnes: > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it > was probably an error. I say "buh-NAL", with a short A and not an AH. So does my wife. > Does anyone here say BANE-uhl, or know where it's regarded as normal? > (FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.) I don't remember hearing that. SignatureMark Brader "Well, it's not in MY interest -- and I represent Toronto the public, so it's not in the public interest!" msb@vex.net -- Jim Hacker, "Yes, Minister" (Lynn & Jay) > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Mike Barnes > Cheshire, England It was BANE-uhl when I first learned it, 50 years ago in Indianapolis, and I've never heard it pronouinced buh-NAHL. But then, it's one of those "big" words that hardly anyone in the U.S. knows nowadays. Like "docile," which used to be pronounced DOSS-uhl, but if you hear it now in the U.S., it'll probably be pronounced the way it's been heard on the PBS TV channel (familiarly known as "the local Beeb" as much of its drama programming comes from the BBC), DOE-sile. Many Americans also do horrible things to "homage" now too, at least the ones who earn their livings in front of a camera. It used to be AHM-ij; now it's usually oh-MAZH. Cece skrev: > It was BANE-uhl when I first learned it, 50 years ago in Indianapolis, > and I've never heard it pronouinced buh-NAHL. But then, it's one of > those "big" words that hardly anyone in the U.S. knows nowadays. Strange. In Danish the word is so common that it borders on banal. SignatureBertel, Denmark Bertel Lund Hansen filted: >Cece skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Strange. In Danish the word is so common that it borders on >banal. Ah, so it's a border dispute!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Bertel Lund Hansen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ah, so it's a border dispute!...r The Danes, I believe, know a thing or two about border disputes. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) The American hertiage Dictionary, 4th, has this note: The pronunciation of 'banal' is not settled among educated speakers of American English . . . . Some [of our Usage] Panelists admit to being so vexed by the problem that they tend to avoid the word in conversation. Speakers can perhaps take comfort in knowing that any one of the last three pronunciations [previously described in the note] will have the support of a substantial minority and that none of them is incorrect. The three pronunciations they give rhyme with: . canal (46% of the Panel) . anal (38% of the Panel) . last syllable w/ doll (14% - said to be more common in BrE) Also, rhyming with 'panel' got 2% of the, um, Panel. The note concludes: "When several pronunciations of a word are widely used, there is really no right or wrong one." (For myself, I always thought the 'canal' form normal, but it's not a word I use much; when the idea is wanted, 'trite' usually suffices.) SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > The American hertiage Dictionary, 4th, has this note: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (For myself, I always thought the 'canal' form normal, but it's not a > word I use much; when the idea is wanted, 'trite' usually suffices.) Interesting that none of the above seem much like the common non-American pronunciation, although the "doll" reference had me baffled. SignatureRob Bannister > > The American hertiage Dictionary, 4th, has this note: > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Interesting that none of the above seem much like the common > non-American pronunciation, although the "doll" reference had me baffled. That would be the one that's been spelled buh-NAHL here. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>> The American hertiage Dictionary, 4th, has this note: >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > That would be the one that's been spelled buh-NAHL here. That's what I thought, but they are quite different pronunciations for me. The "o" in doll is more like that in "hot" but longer. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>> Interesting that none of the above seem much like the common >>> non-American pronunciation, although the "doll" reference had me [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's what I thought, but they are quite different pronunciations for > me. The "o" in doll is more like that in "hot" but longer. Just imagine Frank Sinatra singing: Hello, Dolly, This is Salvador, Dali. Or perhaps you could think of Neil Diamond singing "Turn on your hot light." SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>> Interesting that none of the above seem much like the common >>>> non-American pronunciation, although the "doll" reference had me [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Or perhaps you could think of Neil Diamond singing "Turn on your hot light." Or Hello doll This is Roald Dahl May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which is uttered so frequently on TV. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which > is uttered so frequently on TV. Err... That would be "Oh my GAWD!" SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >>May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my >>GUARD!" which is uttered so frequently on TV. > >Err... That would be "Oh my GAWD!" It actually sounds like "Oh my GAHD!", but there isn't any such word in English, and a non-rhotic "Oh my GUARD!" would sound like that, so that's what we hear. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in English, and a non-rhotic "Oh my GUARD!" would sound like that, > so that's what we hear. Which gives you an idea of what we rhotic speakers are likely to hear when you say "guard". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It can't affect you unless you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |install Windows, and who would be |foolish enough to do that? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Peter Moylan (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>: >> John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Which gives you an idea of what we rhotic speakers are likely to hear >when you say "guard". I'm already acutely aware of that, having the name I do. When speaking to Americans I have to Americanise the pronunciation, or I come across as "Mike Bonds". Or, more usually and rather curiously, "Mark Bonds". Experiment shows that what works best is (what sounds to me like) MY-uhk BARRRR-uhns. And I find SHOUTING helps. :-) SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >> is uttered so frequently on TV. > > Err... That would be "Oh my GAWD!" Steve's version seems to be a lot more common on TV. A question of where the shows are made? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan filted: >>>May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >>> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Steve's version seems to be a lot more common on TV. A question of where >the shows are made? Around here, this actress's delivery seems to be canonical: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfBh8rthdL0 ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Peter Moylan filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfBh8rthdL0 Yes, that's pretty close to the way I pronounce "guard". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Peter Moylan filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > Yes, that's pretty close to the way I pronounce "guard". Definitely "guard", although I've heard more guardish pronunciations than that. SignatureRob Bannister >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >> is uttered so frequently on TV. > >Err... That would be "Oh my GAWD!" No, that's the Cockney version, which rhymes with the "Gord" in "Gordon Brown". . The Americans distinctly say "Oh my GUARD!" It a quite different vowel, or diphthong, or whatever you want to call it. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which > >> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The Americans distinctly say "Oh my GUARD!" You're telling me how I pronounce things? > It a quite different vowel, or diphthong, or whatever you want to call it. The ordinary pronunciation of God rymes with hod, pod, rod. In that particular phrase, however, which I only use jocularly, God is pronounced with the vowel of dog in "Deputy Dawg". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >> >> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >You're telling me how I pronounce things? No, not unless I've heard you on TV. I have no idea how you pronounce things, but the people I hear on American TV programmes are always saying "Oh my GUARD!" There's one called "Overhaulin'" where they take someone's old car and fix it up without them knowing about it, and when they see their newly renovated car they almost invariably say "Oh my GUARD!" Sometimes they repeat it several times. >> It a quite different vowel, or diphthong, or whatever you want to call it. > >The ordinary pronunciation of God rymes with hod, pod, rod. In that >particular phrase, however, which I only use jocularly, God is >pronounced with the vowel of dog in "Deputy Dawg". That I haven't seen. I do pronounce God to rhyme with other other words, but with the "o" vowel, not the "ah" voewl or the "aw" vowel. I did have a record of Pete Seeger telling the story of "When we heard what was happening down in Birmingham, with the dahgs...", and that rhymed with the God in "Oh my GUARD!" SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which > >> >> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have no idea how you pronounce things, but the people I hear on American TV > programmes are always saying "Oh my GUARD!" Most Americans would pronounce the R in GUARD, and I doubt there's any American who would pronounce "God" with an R sound in it. Therefore, if you're non-rhotic then I suspect that the vowel you're representing as GUARD is the same as the one I represent as GAWD. I venture this statement after learning that there are people who rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal using what just possibly may be the same vowel as in your GUARD and my GAWD. Or possibly not. This is why I usually stay out of pronunciation threads; at this point I will abandon this one. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> I have no idea how you pronounce things, but the people I hear on American TV >> programmes are always saying "Oh my GUARD!" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal using what just possibly may be >the same vowel as in your GUARD and my GAWD. Or possibly not. It's the difference between "gawd" and "gahd", innit? It's the second I typically hear on US TV. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens filted: >It's the difference between "gawd" and "gahd", innit? It's the second >I typically hear on US TV. Typically, yes, but the former is not unattested...I recently managed to find a copy of the 1972 documentary "Marjoe", and whenever the title character was preaching he used "gawd".... Say, maybe that's a way out for those who are afraid to blaspheme: "gawd" for literal use and "gahd" for expletives!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Wood Avens filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Say, maybe that's a way out for those who are afraid to blaspheme: "gawd" for >literal use and "gahd" for expletives!...r Then there are the preachers who say it "The Lord-dah God-dah...". That doesn't work in print. That "dah" is snapped out when you hear it. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [...] > Then there are the preachers who say it "The Lord-dah God-dah...". I recall some writer remarking in his reminiscences that his grandfather was the only man he ever knew who could make a three-syllable word of "God". SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >was the only man he ever knew who could make a three-syllable word of >"God". The actor playing Senator Clay Davis in "The Wire" can make the word "sh.t" last several seconds and a few syllables. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > was the only man he ever knew who could make a three-syllable word of > "God". I thought Americans from the deep South could wring a minimum of three syllables out of any word. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >>>>>> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > This is why I usually stay out of pronunciation threads; at this > point I will abandon this one. Perhaps we need an audio file to hear what your GAWD sounds like. Can we attach those to Usenet posts, as we can for email? SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: > >>>>>> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which > >>>>>> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Perhaps we need an audio file to hear what your GAWD sounds like. Can we > attach those to Usenet posts, as we can for email? Attachments are frowned upon. A link to a file is OK. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> > on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Attachments are frowned upon. A link to a file is OK. Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. As an atheist who might make light of god's name, I'd have to be careful. The Irish Parliament has recently made blasphemy a crime, subject to a fine: http://blasphemy.ie/ So much for living in an enlightened country, at least until this silly law is repealed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > So much for living in an enlightened country, at least until this > silly law is repealed. Is that somehow connected to the previous comments? If so, I don't get it. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >Is that somehow connected to the previous comments? If so, I don't get it. You don't? If I took Ireland's new law seriously, I would have to be careful how I said the word, God, or what variations I concocted on it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > careful how I said the word, God, or what variations I concocted on > it. You might get away with uttering the name of God, as that might be deemed a petty offence. The act defines "blasphemous matter" as "grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion." Does this mean that Christians risk prosecution? Surely their claims about the divinity of Jesus or Mary as the Mother of God are perceived as blasphemous by a substantial number of the adherents of Judaism? SignatureJames [...] > Does this mean that Christians risk prosecution? Surely their claims > about the divinity of Jesus or Mary as the Mother of God are perceived > as blasphemous by a substantial number of the adherents of Judaism? Indeed, and the claims of Jesus also: [quote] Matthew 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. Mark 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [endquote] Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder and the hurt suffered is subjective, making it rather difficult for a court of law to assess whether an offence has been committed and, if so, how serious it is. Finding the right balance between guaranteeing freedom of speech and protecting people's private sensibilities is not simple. Miriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law:Legal Dictionary [quote] Main Entry: blas·phe·my Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE Function: noun Inflected Form: plural -mies : the crime of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God or a religion and its doctrines and writings and esp. God as perceived by Christianity and Christian doctrines and writings ?see also Amendment I to the CONSTITUTION in the back matter NOTE: In many states, blasphemy statutes have been repealed as contrary to the First Amendment. [endquote] My own view is that everyone should have the right to believe whatever they like; in return, they must put up with being mocked if they act it out in public. SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > they like; in return, they must put up with being mocked if they act it > out in public. No satirist could possibly disagree with that. SignatureJames [...] >> My own view is that everyone should have the right to believe whatever >> they like; in return, they must put up with being mocked if they act it >> out in public. > > No satirist could possibly disagree with that. It's a start, then. SignatureLes (BrE) <snip> >Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder and the hurt suffered is >subjective, making it rather difficult for a court of law to assess >whether an offence has been committed and, if so, how serious it is. Yes. Many people already think the law will be unenforceable. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >about the divinity of Jesus or Mary as the Mother of God are perceived >as blasphemous by a substantial number of the adherents of Judaism? Muslims would not be too impressed either. To them Jesus ('Isa) is an important prophet. Unlike Chritians, Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. Such a belief is, to Muslims, polytheistic. There is only one God. http://www.soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp [Paragraph headings only] 1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES 2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES 3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES 4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES 5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES 7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO 8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > 8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then > resurrected? NO If a Muslim in Ireland shouted seven and eight from the rooftops, he might well be in trouble, under the new law. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE [...] > If a Muslim in Ireland shouted seven and eight from the rooftops, he > might well be in trouble, under the new law. And that's just for starters: <http://www.globenews24.com/EN/news,no-fat-ladies-bingo-caller-told-to-cut-patter> <http://tinyurl.com/y87vqhx> SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: People, trim, please! >> [Paragraph headings only] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If a Muslim in Ireland shouted seven and eight from the rooftops, he > might well be in trouble, under the new law. And conversely. As I read the new Irish law, it's blasphemous to argue publicly against the introduction of Sharia Law. Elsewhere in the thread, you suggested that the new law would be unenforceable. (Which would be a relief to our choir, if true. We decided recently that it would not be safe to take the choir on an Ireland tour, because some of the songs we sing would make us liable to arrest.) My understanding, however, is that the whole point of this law is enforceability. There's already a blasphemy provision in the Irish constitution, I gather, but some people felt that this new law was necessary because the constitutional rule had proved to be unenforceable. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> [Paragraph headings only] >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >constitution, I gather, but some people felt that this new law was >necessary because the constitutional rule had proved to be unenforceable. When saying I thought the law would be unenforceable, I was only parroting conjectures I read on www.blasphemy.ie , but I'll be watching for articles in the Irish Times to see what actually happens. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >about the divinity of Jesus or Mary as the Mother of God are perceived >as blasphemous by a substantial number of the adherents of Judaism? Christians may be most at risk. Even Jesus and his adherents, themselves, would risk prosecution under the new Irish law, as http://blasphemy.ie/ points out. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > You might get away with uttering the name of God, as that might be > deemed a petty offence. The act defines "blasphemous matter" as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > perceived as blasphemous by a substantial number of the adherents of > Judaism? Like Holmes's "shouting fire" dictum, this rule requires that there actually be a reaction: "thereby causing outrage". Jews don't get outraged by by a bunch of non-Jews claiming that Jesus is divine or even that Jesus is the messiah, because they don't expect non-Jews to really understand much about these matters. It's Christians who tend to get upset when Jews say that Jesus *wasn't* the Jewish messiah. What I find interesting about a statute like this, though, is that it seems tailor-made to be used as a defense for otherwise criminal behavior. And not just against religious groups. If a bunch of Christians attack gays, well, they asked for it by claiming that they should be allowed to marry. Indeed, being incited to commit violence would seem to be the clearest way of demonstrating that outrage had been caused. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired |for their resemblance to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger. (650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> You might get away with uttering the name of God, as that might be >> deemed a petty offence. The act defines "blasphemous matter" as [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > would seem to be the clearest way of demonstrating that outrage had > been caused. Most if not all countries already have laws against inciting violence. Extra laws shouldn't be needed. SignatureCheryl >>> You might get away with uttering the name of God, as that might be >>> deemed a petty offence. The act defines "blasphemous matter" as [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Most if not all countries already have laws against inciting > violence. Extra laws shouldn't be needed. Typically (I believe), such laws only apply when the person who commits violence does so because they agree with the speaker and the speaker can reasonably assume that the words can be taken to encourage violence. This is a case where it's the victim that's being held to incite because the one committing violence disagrees with the words. In the US, there's the concept of "fighting words", but that is a defense rather than a crime and only covers incidents that happen immediately after the words were spoken. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stops, and a train station is where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say |about a workstation? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > careful how I said the word, God, or what variations I concocted on > it. Oh, silly me. I forgot we were talking about the pronunciation of "God". Bu then there's "God" and "god" (or "the god" as opposed to "a god", as I recall from a movie :) ). Anyway, does using "God" in that way really constitute "blashpemy"? When I look up the definition of blasphemy in Macquarie, I find: 1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things. and for "impious": 1. not pious; lacking reverence for God; ungodly. and for "pious": 1. having or displaying religious fervour or conscientiousness in religious observance. Putting all those together, I am not convinced that saying "oh my God" is blasphemy. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>>> annily wrote, in <0186e80b$0$10144$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>>>>> on Sun, 03 Jan 2010 10:10:07 +1030: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >Oh, silly me. I forgot we were talking about the pronunciation of "God". Use your imagination. By variations, I was referring to a whole string of invectives that incorporate the words God, Jesus or other Biblical characters, plus blasphemous variations on the two characters I just named. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Perhaps we need an audio file to hear what your GAWD sounds like. >> Can we attach those to Usenet posts, as we can for email? > > Attachments are frowned upon. A link to a file is OK. Not only that -- many read this newsgroup from servers that do not allow binary files. Only straight text is permitted. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Perhaps we need an audio file to hear what your GAWD sounds like. >>> Can we attach those to Usenet posts, as we can for email? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not only that -- many read this newsgroup from servers that do not allow > binary files. Only straight text is permitted. Homophobia rears its head even in text. SignatureRob Bannister Bill Nelson thinks "banal" is pronounced thusly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsUu7GjshSc He's right. Adrian >> >> >> May be "doll" rhymes with "guard" in that American saying "Oh my GUARD!" which >> >> >> is uttered so frequently on TV. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >rhyme rationale, snarl, and banal using what just possibly may be >the same vowel as in your GUARD and my GAWD. Or possibly not. As I said, GAWD represents the Cockney pronunciation, which rhymes with the "Gord" in Gordon Brown. >This is why I usually stay out of pronunciation threads; at this >point I will abandon this one. Probably wise. That's why I at one time posted sound files, which Yahoo has now obliterated. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Interesting that none of the above seem much like the common >> non-American pronunciation, although the "doll" reference had me baffled. > >That would be the one that's been spelled buh-NAHL here. As in "dhall"? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's > always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > (FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.) I do. However, here in America, you can take your choice. AHD gives four pronunciations (to rhyme with panel, anal, canal, and doll), and says that only the first (recommended by Fowler) is rare in the U.S. Its usage panel was divided 2%:38%:46%:14% among those four, respectively. Remarkable to have a pronunciation supported by three substantial minorities. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Marijuana is a dangerous drug. It produces insanity in :|| ||: people who never use it. :|| >> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's >> always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I do. However, here in America, you can take your choice. AHD gives > four pronunciations (to rhyme with panel, anal, canal, and doll), Thats's interesting, as my pronunciation ("buh-NAHL") doesn't rhyme with any of those, but then I'm not American. I don't pronounce "doll" as /dahl/ as some Americans may. On an Aussie note, Macquarie (third edition) gives /'baynuhl/ /buh'nahl/ suggesting my pronunciation is less common in Australia (but then who wants to be "common"?) SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it > was probably an error. > > Does anyone here say BANE-uhl, I do (AusE). To be honest, I was under the impression that the buh-NAHL pronunciation was poking fun at a once-popular singer. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it >was probably an error. > >Does anyone here say BANE-uhl, or know where it's regarded as normal? I first encoutnered it in written form, and imagined that it might be pronounced BANE-ill. It was only when I heard it spoken that I discovered that it was pronounce buh-NAHL. I think that is quite common when people first enounter a word in written form, and not in speech. Think of the Harry Potter books. People who knew someone called Hermione knew how to pronounce the name, and people who didn't, didn't, at least until they saw the films. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes wrote, in <4lslj5tng13lae7j80ov9r3k6panc0euj6@4ax.com> on Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:31:22 +0200: > Think of the Harry Potter books. People who knew someone called Hermione knew > how to pronounce the name, and people who didn't, didn't, at least until they > saw the films. No problem to those who remember H Baddeley and H Gingold. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE On 30 Dec 2009, Nick Spalding wrote > Steve Hayes wrote, in > <4lslj5tng13lae7j80ov9r3k6panc0euj6@4ax.com> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No problem to those who remember H Baddeley and H Gingold. [Waves hand for inclusion] SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 30 Dec 2009, Nick Spalding wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >[Waves hand for inclusion] <misunderstands> You mean your real name is Hermione, not Harvey? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On 30 Dec 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote >> On 30 Dec 2009, Nick Spalding wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > You mean your real name is Hermione, not Harvey? Apparently if I'd been a girl, my parents were going to call me "Penelope". (In those days, of course, putting a shortened form like "Penny" on a birth certificate wouldn't have remotely occurred to them.) I'm glad I wasn't a girl. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Apparently if I'd been a girl, my parents were going to call me > "Penelope". (In those days, of course, putting a shortened form > like "Penny" on a birth certificate wouldn't have remotely occurred > to them.) My father claimed that if I'd been a girl it would have been Petronilla. That doesn't quite rhyme with Varela; much better choices, had I had a daughter, would have been Stella, Bella, or Carmela. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >On 30 Dec 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >like "Penny" on a birth certificate wouldn't have remotely occurred >to them.) Mine would have been "Robina". >I'm glad I wasn't a girl. Me too. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >(FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.) Nope. "Bah-NAAHL" (clear "a" as in BrE "cat" on the first vowel - definitely nothing like a schwa). If it weren't for other posts in this thread, I'd have assumed that BANE-uhl was an uneducated or deliberate misformation from "anal". Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks., Hants.) >>I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always >>been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >this thread, I'd have assumed that BANE-uhl was an uneducated or >deliberate misformation from "anal". My first hearing of it was not the a in cat, but the first a in banana, and in fact the whole thing rhymed with the first two syllables of banana. But then the first person I heard speaking it was a New Zealander. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's >>> always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > But then the first person I heard speaking it was a New Zealander. I suspect you are describing what you heard correctly, then! I've already committed to buh-NAHL but I hesitated over that "uh" really being a schwa. It's much more like the "ba" in banana and nothing like the "a" in cat. >>>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's >>>> always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >committed to buh-NAHL but I hesitated over that "uh" really being a schwa. >It's much more like the "ba" in banana and nothing like the "a" in cat. I noticed the word "banality" in a Guardian article summary today, and immediately wondered how that is pronounced in AmE. "Far from delivering a 'wisdom of crowds', social networking sites have created only a deafening banality." It also struck me that substituting "triteness" wouldn't quite work. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>> I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's >>>>> always been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >It also struck me that substituting "triteness" wouldn't quite work. And there is the well-known phrase "the banality of evil". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I noticed the word "banality" in a Guardian article summary today, and > immediately wondered how that is pronounced in AmE. I pronounce the first two syllables to rhyme with canal. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (FWIW the speaker I heard had an American accent.) Buh-NAHL, here. Rhymes with my "canal". (Aussie/NZ hybrid) > I was surprised to hear "banal" pronounced BANE-uhl. To me it's always > been buh-NAHL, and until I found BANE-uhl in the dictionary I thought it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Mike Barnes > Cheshire, England Hi Mike. I too have always pronounced this "buh-nahl". As a broad speaking northerner myself I care not whether this is deemed to be correct or otherwise by proponents of "proper" English . And as for US English claiming to retain a lot of "proper" pronuciations no longer extant in (southern) English, these delusions would soon be refuted by mingling amongst any population north of Watford Gap > And as for US English > claiming to retain a lot of "proper" pronuciations no longer extant in > (southern) English, these delusions would soon be refuted by mingling > amongst any population north of Watford Gap I believe the retention of old pronunciations has particular reference to the English of East Anglia*. Evidently, other than the Scots-Irish, not many people from "north of Watford Gap" (wherever that is) emigrated to the US. * Or was it Scots-Irish? Or both? Maybe I need to reread Albion's Seed. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email |
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