Is it true Korean script was DESIGNED and not just chaotically evolved?
Consider the 3 constructs:
1.His job was to separate X-grains from Y-grains with tweezers.
2.His job was to separate diamonds from pebbles with great care.
3. An essential role of the ESRB is to identify risks with a systemic
dimension and prevent or mitigate their impact on the financial
system within the EU.
Apparently the "with" in 1 & 2 is 'associated/modifies' the verb
'separate', whereas in 3 it modifies the noun 'risks'.
So the structure is completly different.
And if by chance you reasonably start on the wrong route, you
need to roll-back when you find that your interpretation makes no
sense. Even worse, an interpretation different from the writer's
intention may well make sense - be grammatically correct.
This problem is analagous to the problem of top-posting: it
doesn't allow the knowledge to evolve in presentation sequence;
i.e. from top to bottom. The reader needs to refer to 'forward'
material to understand the current content.
Is it possible to eliminate 'forward references' ?
A reason to eliminate 'forward references', would be the ability to
eliminate the need to roll-back.
Rolling-back is wasteful, because it means discarding structures
which have consumed energy to construct.
Just because the language evolved naturally via chaos, is no good
reason to accept the resulting flaws. Aviation english, on which
the safety of peoples's lives depends, has long used limited syntax.
Law people too, have a constrained language: never say "it", always
specify the actual noun. Since I can't see why "prior to" is better
than "before", I suspect that much legal jargon has no rational basis.
Q. what work has been done on designing a language [like computer
languages are DESIGNED] to avoid the above mentioned problems ?
I imagine a system which could build an ample sentence for a Spanish
or Chinese speaker to understand:
" If you want to, you can deposit [leave on trust with me], half the
price, and I will order your prefered colour [hat] from the factory,
and you can collect the item in 10 days, by paying the balance".
Perhaps it's more efficient to parse fruity-english to simple-english,
and autotranslate that to simple-chinese, and have people translate
that to fruity-chinese is they want to. Rather than have people waste
decades learning fruity-english or fruity-chinese and be dependant
on the [expensive to educate] few who know both languages to a
fruity level. Telecommunication protocols use such a method.
Don Phillipson - 30 Dec 2009 14:10 GMT
> Consider the 3 constructs:
> 1.His job was to separate X-grains from Y-grains with tweezers.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 'separate', whereas in 3 it modifies the noun 'risks'.
> So the structure is completly different.
No: English prepositions do not modify verbs or nouns.
(Korean syntax might enable this: I do not know.) Simple
parsing illuminates the similarities between 1 & 2 and their
differences from 3.
> Law people too, have a constrained language: never say "it", always
> specify the actual noun. Since I can't see why "prior to" is better
> than "before", I suspect that much legal jargon has no rational basis.
This appears a mistake. Anglo-Saxon law has an abundant
record of testing exactly what every word means in statute law,
and case law cumulates earlier decisions (so that, perhaps,
legal documents may prefer "prior to" over "before.") Whether
"rational" or not, legal jargon has an elaborate logic, tested in
a highly competitive environment.
> Perhaps it's more efficient to parse fruity-english to simple-english,
> and autotranslate that to simple-chinese, and have people translate
> that to fruity-chinese is they want to. Rather than have people waste
> decades learning fruity-english or fruity-chinese and be dependant
> on the [expensive to educate] few who know both languages to a
> fruity level. Telecommunication protocols use such a method.
This is intelligible only if the OP defines fruity-English as distinct
from spoken English, written English, legal English etc.

Signature
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Cece - 30 Dec 2009 17:57 GMT
> <no.top.p...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> Carlsbad Springs
> (Ottawa, Canada)
Yes, Hangul was designed, in the 15th century.
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/language.htm#SCRIPT
Somewhere, I read that early in the development process, the designer
came up with a syllabary (CV) and worked with that to produce an
alphabet.
Legalese is extremely specific and retains some old vocabulary and
forms that the everyday language does not. It also keeps some habits
from the days when both Norman French and Middle English were the
common languages but spoken by different groups (give and bequeathe).
And then there is the making sure it's covered so the case doesn't
fail: on or about December 15. Except for the Latin (and once in a
while French), it isn't hard to figure out, especially if you have a
Law Dictionary at hand. If you object to things like "the said xxx,"
imagine what would happen if a pronoun was used and the antecedent
could be either of two words earlier in the sentence (or any of many).
Yes, lawyers can make their texts obscure and abstruse; this is not
uncommon when the lawyers are writing laws. But even then...
Mark Brader - 01 Jan 2010 21:52 GMT
> > Consider the 3 constructs:
> > 1.His job was to separate X-grains from Y-grains with tweezers.
> > 2.His job was to separate diamonds from pebbles with great care.
> > 3. An essential role of the ESRB is to identify risks with a systemic
> > dimension and prevent or mitigate their impact on the financial
> > system within the EU.
> > Apparently the "with" in 1 & 2 is 'associated/modifies' the verb
> > 'separate', whereas in 3 it modifies the noun 'risks'.
> No: English prepositions do not modify verbs or nouns.
True, but the original poster's statement just needs a small correction:
insead of "'with'" it should be "The prepositional phrase introduced by
'with'", or for short, "the 'with' phrase".
Adverbial modifiers are like that in English. Sometimes you can only
tell by the sense of them what they are modifying.

Signature
Mark Brader "I wasn't the one who misplaced the entire
Toronto Deltivid asteroid belt!"
msb@vex.net "Deja Q", ST:TNG, Richard Danus
no.top.post@gmail.com - 06 Jan 2010 17:23 GMT
> > Consider the 3 constructs:
> > 1.His job was to separate X-grains from Y-grains with tweezers.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > 'separate', whereas in 3 it modifies the noun 'risks'.
> > So the structure is completly different.
Don Phillipson wrote:
No: English prepositions do not modify verbs or nouns.
(Korean syntax might enable this: I do not know.) Simple
parsing illuminates the similarities between 1 & 2 and their
differences from 3.
Did you see my "associated" ?
Let me try to simplify my example:
Can you see how the wrong 'association' can come about
before the sentence is completed. [German is disasterous.] eg.
An essential role of the ESRB is to identify [risks with a systemic
dimension] and prevent ..
An essential role of the ESRB is to identify risks, [with a systemic
dimension, and prevent ..
So yes, placement of commas helps a lot.
How could YOU parse the original, without reading the complete
sentence, and unrolling potential wrong assumptions?
> > Law people too, have a constrained language: never say "it", always
> > specify the actual noun. Since I can't see why "prior to" is better
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "rational" or not, legal jargon has an elaborate logic, tested in
> a highly competitive environment.
No, knowing the word-meaning/s depends on the context.
I'm not talking about word meanings.
I'm talking a sentence meanings.
Digital computing has only two [unambigious, well defined] "words",
which suffice to construct infinite chaos. So knowing what the words
mean doesn't remove the problem.
Some computer languages which are designed, and not just
chaotically evolved, need no 'forward references', I.e. the meaning
is unambigiously determined as you proceed. No need to make
guesses which may later need to be changed.
It's unrealistic to expect english [or any natural language] to be
fixed by "testing exactly what every word means in statute law".
==TIA