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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Waugh: lay up with him
Hello: "lay up with him" I'm not getting the BrE meaning here. Was Sebastian using that sailor's sleeping accomodations for the while? Could it have sexual connotations? I think it does in AmE: ----- Lay up with, to have sexual relations with, ... Lots of the country boys wanted to lay up with her. Dictionary of American Regional English: I-O - Page 31 ----- Sebastian's sexual orientation hasn't been revealed by now very clearly, even though he and Ryder had a gay friend once. ----- [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] ... asked about sailings to Alexandria just to fox Sammy, then went down to the port in a bus, found a sailor who spoke American, lay up with him till his ship sailed, and popped back to Constantinople, and that was that. Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 756 ---- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Could it have sexual connotations? I think it does in AmE: I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without context and, as you say, he hasn't made it clear yet that Sebastian bats for the other side. (Sorry I couldn't resist the old idiom!) > ----- > Lay up with, to have sexual relations with, ... Lots of the country [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 756 > ---- > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and, as you say, he hasn't made it clear yet that Sebastian bats for > the other side. (Sorry I couldn't resist the old idiom!) Shirley, 'bowls from the pavillion end'. DC -- >> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without context >> and, as you say, he hasn't made it clear yet that Sebastian bats for >> the other side. (Sorry I couldn't resist the old idiom!)> > >Shirley, 'bowls from the pavillion end'. "Bats for the other side" was used by the UK's "national trinket" Julian Clary in a hilarious scene with June Whitfield, filmed twenty years ago and shown last night as part of a June Whitfield special. Delicious.  SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > > > "lay up with him" > > > I'm not getting the BrE meaning here. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Shirley, 'bowls from the pavillion end'. Translation for the latter? Marius Hancu >> > > "lay up with him" >> > > I'm not getting the BrE meaning here. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Translation for the latter? At cricket, the bowling alternates from end to end after each over (six balls). Each end of the ground has a name (at Lord's the Pavilion End and the Nursery End, at Trent Bridge the Pavilion End and the Radcliffe Road End) and at decent grounds (Old Trafford and Headingley are therefore excluded from this definition) the eponymous pavilion is at one end. The expression as used by Django is probably not in common use - but has the advantage of being readily understood. Regards Jonathan > >>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a > >>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > The expression as used by Django is probably not in common use Dunno about that (and nor do 194,000 other people apparently, though some of them may be talking about cricket). Then there's 'goes home on the other bus'. DC -- >> >>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >> >>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Then there's 'goes home on the other bus'. I'd take that to be like our "takes/rides the short bus [to school]": an implication of mental retardation rather than homosexuality SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most |punctilious compliance with the kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do (650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking |well. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger On Dec 31, 8:15 am, "Jonathan Morton" <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Shirley, 'bowls from the pavillion end'. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The expression as used by Django is probably not in common use - but has the > advantage of being readily understood. Interesting. Thanks. Marius hancu >> > > "lay up with him" >> > > I'm not getting the BrE meaning here. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Translation for the latter? It is derived from the game of cricket. A cricket ground has a "pitch" in the middle. The pitch is an elongated rectangular area with wickets (stumps) at each end. A batsman stands in front of one wicket and a bowler bowls from the other end alongside the other wicket. After a certain number of balls have been bowled, an "over", bowling is done from the other end of the pitch. The pavilion (COED: Brit. a building at a sports ground used for changing and taking refreshments[1]) is at one end of the ground in line with the pitch. It is customary to refer to the end of the pitch nearest the pavilion as the "pavilion end". I can't think of any physical analogy between bowling from the pavilion end and homosexual activity. The phrase is just used as a conventional euphemism. [1] At a cricket ground of any size the pavilion may contain more than just changing rooms and refreshment areas, it may be the headquarters of the club owning the ground and therefore house business offices, etc. It will also have VIP seating for viewing the games. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without context [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Translation for the latter? Kicks with the left foot. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >>>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without context [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kicks with the left foot. But in BrE, a left-footer is something completely different - which brings us neatly back to Waugh, Brideshead, and Roman Catholicism. Regards Jonathan >>>>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader >>>>> a little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But in BrE, a left-footer is something completely different - which > brings us neatly back to Waugh, Brideshead, and Roman Catholicism. In Ireland, digging with the wrong foot means professing the religion of the other side. Catholics traditionally dig with the right foot and Protestants with the left; it all has to do with the traditional design of spades, as Estyn Evans showed. Popular linguistic usage, however, ignores the ethnographical evidence and calls Catholics left-footers. SignatureJames >>>>>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader >>>>>> a little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >of spades, as Estyn Evans showed. Popular linguistic usage, however, >ignores the ethnographical evidence and calls Catholics left-footers. Yes. _Irish Folk Ways_ By E. Estyn Evans, at Google Books discusses literal digging: http://tinyurl.com/ycvbfh3 But, _The concise new Partridge dictionary of slang and unconventional English_ By Tom Dalzell, Terry Victor, at Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/yev2mkx dig with the left foot, be a Catholic. IRELAND dig with the right foot, to be of the same religious persuasion, in Northern Ireland a protestant. UK, NORTHERN IRELAND dig with the wrong foot, be Catholic. CANADA IME there is some confusion as to whether "right foot" is understood to mean the opposite of "left foot" or the opposite of "wrong foot". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> On Dec 30, 9:38 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.co.uk> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > IME there is some confusion as to whether "right foot" is understood > to mean the opposite of "left foot" or the opposite of "wrong foot". Indeed, but right is always right, and therefore left is always wrong. Sinisterly yours, SignatureJames >>>>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >>>>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > But in BrE, a left-footer is something completely different - which > brings us neatly back to Waugh, Brideshead, and Roman Catholicism. I've heard it used both ways here. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> I think that's a safe assumption. Waugh is teasing the reader a >>>> little at this point because the phrase is ambiguous without context [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Kicks with the left foot. I could confuse that with "digs with the left foot": to describe someone as a Roman Catholic. Also in Ireland and Britain "a left footer" is sometimes used to mean "a Catholic". These phrases are, or verge on the, derogatory and are safest tucked away in one's passive vocabulary. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >with him till his ship sailed, and popped back to Constantinople, and >that was that. In that context I think it means "hid aboard with him till his boat sailed". The main point is that he was out of sight of those on shore who might be looking for him. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 756 Waugh in the 1940s did not know the US verb lay = f.ck and would not have written it if he knew it. In standard English lay up = set aside, as in the Biblical "Lay up for yourself not treasure on earth but treasure in heaven . . . " It also has a specifical nautical meaning, viz. lay up = store a ship away for temporary idleness until the next voyage. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > It also has a specifical nautical meaning, > viz. lay up = store a ship away for temporary idleness until the next > voyage. Indeed. Our Yacht Club holds an annual 'Laying Up Supper' at the end of the sailing season. >> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Waugh in the 1940s did not know the US verb lay = f.ck > and would not have written it if he knew it. Two rather bold assertions. You have cites? That implies he hadn't read authors like O'Hara or Dos Passos or, indeed, our own Graham Greene who wrote in 1938 in Brighton Rock "I'm marrying her for your sake, but I'm laying her for my own." It also implies he didn't listen much to soldiers slang during the war years when he had contact with a wide variety of military types. Or that he met few Americans in the UK or on his extensive travels in the decade before WW2, especially during his time in Mexico in 1938 when he also paid a couple of visits to the USA. Of course, none of this establishes that he knew the sexual meaning of 'lay' but it seems to me more likely than not. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Of course, none of this establishes that he knew the sexual meaning of 'lay' > but it seems to me more likely than not. Fascinating debate. EW might have inserted an intentional ambiguity. Thank you all. Marius Hancu > Fascinating debate. EW might have inserted an intentional ambiguity. He might. For what it is worth, I don't think there is a sexual connotation in this particular instance. Regards Jonathan >>> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Of course, none of this establishes that he knew the sexual meaning > of 'lay' but it seems to me more likely than not. Perhaps also relevant is that the word "lay" is used in the original quotation as the past form of "lie". ["... then went down to the port in a bus, found a sailor who spoke American, lay up with him till his ship sailed, ..."] "He lay up with" is probably close enough to "he lay with" to be suggestive in any version of standard English. > >>> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > "He lay up with" is probably close enough to "he lay with" to be > suggestive in any version of standard English. One of the tricky things for me was exactly the presence of "up." Does it bring any differences in BrE? Marius Hancu >> >>> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > One of the tricky things for me was exactly the presence of "up." I'm pretty sure he's using "to lay up" (proper meaning "to put a ship to one side[1]) to mean "stay with", and using the nautical analogy for stylistic purposes. OTOH, I find it astonishing that anyone would suggest that there isn't some sexual suggestion in there. Not just the "lay" bit, but in the idea of him picking up a sailor and the docks to pass the time. [1] "A layby" [UK and similar readers only] was a place off the main line of a waterway where boats could wait long before the term was transferred to the analogous thing by the roads. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >[1] "A layby" [UK and similar readers only] was a place off the main >line of a waterway where boats could wait long before the term was >transferred to the analogous thing by the roads. A man is driving down the road and he sees a pretty young lady hitch-hiking. He stops, and she gets in. "I'm a witch," she says. "Oh yeah?" he replies. "Prove it. Turn me into something." So she leaned over and kissed him, and he turned into a layby. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>[1] "A layby" [UK and similar readers only] was a place off the main >>line of a waterway where boats could wait long before the term was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >"Oh yeah?" he replies. "Prove it. Turn me into something." So she >leaned over and kissed him, and he turned into a layby. <chuckle> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Does it bring any differences in BrE? The phrase "lie up" is defined in three OneLook dictionaries; none of them are (sic) British, but I think the definitions are of wide application. From the Free Dictionary and Merriam-Webster, respectively: lie up vb (intr, adverb) 1. to go into or stay in one's room or bed, as through illness 2. to be out of commission or use my car has been lying up for months Main Entry: lie up Function: intransitive verb Date: 1699 1 : to go into or remain in a dock 2 : to stay in bed or at rest So, still ambiguous. [...] > The phrase "lie up" is defined in three OneLook dictionaries; none of > them are (sic) British, but I think the definitions are of wide [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> > So, still ambiguous. I'm with the docks-and-sailors insinuation: if all he was doing was lurking, why not a handy doss-house or something? But note that "to lie up" is something done by foxes and other quarry, implying a position of safety. I'm sure Jim Corbett's cats would have been spotted lying up at the heads of nullahs. SignatureMike. >> [Sebastian evades Samgrass, the don chaperoning him, in Greece] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited, p. 756 > Waugh in the 1940s did not know the US verb lay = f.ck > and would not have written it if he knew it. In standard > English lay up = set aside, as in the Biblical "Lay up for > yourself not treasure on earth but treasure in heaven . . . " This is from the verb 'lay.' It is transitive as is the sexual sense and would be 'laid up' in the past tense, which is the tense of the other verbs in this series: went, found, popped. > It also has a specifical nautical meaning, viz. lay up = > store a ship away for temporary idleness until the > next voyage. This is the past tense of 'lie up." SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 29 708.9 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. > > In standard > > English lay up = set aside, as in the Biblical "Lay up for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > This is the past tense of 'lie up." Not necessarily. A sailor might say: "I am going to lay up my boat this week;" he would not say "I am going to lie up my boat this week." In the past tense, laid and lain are equally current for most uses of the verb lay -- but not for lay up. We say "I laid up my boat last week:" no one says "I lain up my boat . . . " Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> > In standard >> > English lay up = set aside, as in the Biblical "Lay up for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> This is the past tense of 'lie up." > Not necessarily. A sailor might say: "I am going to > lay up my boat this week;" he would not say "I am > going to lie up my boat this week." "Lie up" is not transitive. "Lay up" is transitive. "Lay up" is not a particularly nautical expression except as the past tense of "lie up." "Lie the boat up" is just impossible. A sailor might say "We/I will lie up in Portsmouth for a week," or "The Beagle will lie up at Wiggin Pier." > In the past tense, laid and lain are equally current > for most uses of the verb lay -- This is just wrong. "Laid up" is perfect common when the meaning is stored. "We laid up 40 quarts of tomatoes." Obvious "lain" is impossible there because it belongs to a different verb." But "Bluebeard had lain up until the Governor's ships were called away" is perfectly possible because 'lain' is used with the intransitive verb which means to be at dock, not to store. > but not for lay up. We say "I laid up my boat last week:" no one says "I > lain up my boat . . . " "Lie up" means to dock or to remain at dock. It is intransitive. "Lay up" means to store. It is transitive. > Don Phillipson > Carlsbad Springs > (Ottawa, Canada) SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 29 712.4 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. >>> > In standard >>> > English lay up = set aside, as in the Biblical "Lay up for [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >"Lie up" means to dock or to remain at dock. It is intransitive. "Lay up" >means to store. It is transitive. Also in the transitive sense, sailors or workmen "lay up" cable or rope when they construct or repair it, using fibres. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE |
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