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plural form

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Fulio Pen - 31 Dec 2009 12:24 GMT
In the following sentence:

Generally speaking, salespeople may complete standard forms so long as
they are reviewed by and with the approval of their broker.

If changing the last word 'broker' to brokers', would it be a wrong
usage?

Thanks.

fulio, a non-native speaker of English
Cheryl - 31 Dec 2009 12:29 GMT
> In the following sentence:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> fulio, a non-native speaker of English

No, it would not be wrong. It adds a slight ambiguity as to whether each
salesperson requires approval from one or from several brokers, but
that's rather common with this sort of sentence.

There's something a bit awkward about 'reviewed by and with the approval
of'.

I think I'd say 'reviewed and approved by their brokers' (if I meant
that the brokers must review and approve each completed form). If you
mean that the broker must approve their salesperson's request to
complete a form, and then review the completed form, I'd say
'salespeople, with the approval of their brokers, may complete standard
forms so long as the completed forms are reviewed by their brokers.'

Signature

Cheryl

Don Phillipson - 31 Dec 2009 13:07 GMT
> In the following sentence:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If changing the last word 'broker' to brokers', would it be a wrong
> usage?

SALESPEOPLE is a barbarism (coined by people who deplore
SALESMAN as offensive to women.)   We could instead
use SALES STAFF, AGENTS or some ungendered noun.

Logic suggests we should prefer plural brokers when the subject of
the  sentence salespeople is also plural.  English is not specially
bound by logic but experience suggests multiple sales staff
interact with more than one broker.

Since this sentence proposes a rule of conduct, it need not be
couched in the plural.  It would have the same effect if it read:
THE SALESMAN MUST . . . WITH THE APPROVAL OF A BROKER.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Dec 2009 13:54 GMT
>> In the following sentence:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>SALESMAN as offensive to women.)   We could instead
>use SALES STAFF, AGENTS or some ungendered noun.

"Salesperson" is used.
http://www.answers.com/topic/salesperson

The article in the Princeton Review uses "Salespeople" as the plural of
"salesperson":
http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=138

In the State of California:
http://www.dre.ca.gov/exm_sales.html

   Real Estate Salesperson License
   
   To obtain a real estate salesperson license, ...

>Logic suggests we should prefer plural brokers when the subject of
>the  sentence salespeople is also plural.  English is not specially
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>couched in the plural.  It would have the same effect if it read:
>THE SALESMAN MUST . . . WITH THE APPROVAL OF A BROKER.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Maria Conlon - 31 Dec 2009 15:08 GMT
>> In the following sentence:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> bound by logic but experience suggests multiple sales staff
> interact with more than one broker.

Maybe, but in the real estate office I'm most familiar with, there is
only one broker. Common usage: "I'll talk to my broker about this and
get back to you."

> Since this sentence proposes a rule of conduct, it need not be
> couched in the plural.  It would have the same effect if it read:
> THE SALESMAN MUST . . . WITH THE APPROVAL OF A BROKER.

Signature

Maria Conlon

Fulio Pen - 31 Dec 2009 15:51 GMT
> >> In the following sentence:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> --
> Maria Conlon

I want to thank you all for your discussion. It helps me a lot.

fulio - a non-native speaker of English
Eric Walker - 31 Dec 2009 22:08 GMT
> In the following sentence:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If changing the last word 'broker' to brokers', would it be a wrong
> usage?

There are two defects in that sentence.  First, despite its seeming
complicated to many people, the rule is very simple: one person, one
head; two persons, two heads.  So that fix requires:

 Generally speaking, salespeople may complete standard forms so long as
 they are reviewed by and with the approval of their brokers.

Of course, recasting so that "salespeople" is replaced by "a salesperson"
or "each salesperson" or something of that sort would also work (unless
it happens that it is known and understood that there is a single broker
serving all salespersons covered by this dictum.)

The second error is that as cast the sentence is saying that the forms
must be reviewed with the approval of the broker; obviously, what was
intended was that the _forms_ have to be approved, not the reviewing:

 Generally speaking, salespeople may complete standard forms so long as
 the completed forms are reviewed and approved by their brokers.

(That also fixes some minor needless ambiguities, such as whether it is
the mere forms--blanks--that need to be reviewed and approved, or whether
it is completed, filled-in forms that need the review--the amendment
assumes the latter.  Or, for that matter, that it is the forms, and not
the salespeople, that need review and approval.)

And while we're at it, whatever is that leading "Generally speaking"
supposed to mean?  If there are special exceptions to the general rule,
we would expect their explanations to follow right after the subject
sentence, so the leader is still redundant:

 Salespeople may complete standard forms so long as the completed forms
 are reviewed and approved by their brokers.  [The sole exceptions are
 &c &c.]

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

 
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