 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Tailors: craftsmen?
Hello: Are tailors considered: - craftsmen or - crafts people (I don't think so) --- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Are tailors considered: > > - craftsmen > or > - crafts people (I don't think so) All tailors are craftsmen: bespoke tailors are also businessmen, viz. independent entrepreneurs.  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > Are tailors considered: > > - craftsmen > or > - crafts people (I don't think so) These days, people of great skill in the manual arts may often be called "craftspeople" (one word) (singular: craftsperson) because many people (not all, and I know some reactionaries will argue) consider the -men ending sexist. However I would still call the quality distinguishing the work of an outstanding craftsperson "craftsmanship", probably out of habit. I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire fighters", policemen are called "police officers", etc. contrex filted: >I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender >specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for >the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire >fighters", policemen are called "police officers", etc. Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > contrex filted: >> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r I've read discussions among amateur rather than professional 'people who sew' over the best term. Seamstress/sempstress doesn't seem to be a popular option. Perhaps it's too old-fashioned, or maybe the 'ess' ending is unpopular. Some like 'sewer' but of course there's another more common word spelled the same way. 'Tailor' seems to imply professional, as well as male."Dressmaker" is too limited....I don't think I heard 'seamsters' suggested, but I don't think the discussion arrived at a consensus either, so that possibility may have a chance. SignatureCheryl >> contrex filted: >>> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >think I heard 'seamsters' suggested, but I don't think the discussion >arrived at a consensus either, so that possibility may have a chance. "Needlewoman" was used by my late wife and her friends (needle-coworkers?). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> contrex filted: >>>> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "Needlewoman" was used by my late wife and her friends > (needle-coworkers?). There was something about a distinction between people who embroidered and people who made clothing out of cloth...it's been a long time, but I thing some people were claiming that 'needlewoman' would apply to one group but not another, although personally I think it's a very general term covering everyone. And where do you classify the knitters and crocheters? I never bothered about it all much, possibly as I was the merest dabbler in some of these fields, but some people got quite worked up about what word to use. They should have posted here! SignatureCheryl >>>> contrex filted: >>>>> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >They should have posted here! They would take over the ng! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >>> contrex filted: > >>>> I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the 50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the Bayeux Tapestry was non of the sort - it was embroidery) when it was called "clothing the children". To make ends meet she used to work in a textile factory along with dozens of other young women using industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists". Redshade filted: >My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the >50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut >Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists". Ah, a maquiladora!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the >50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut >Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists". They might have been supervised by people called "overlookers". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >My dear old mum used to knit, crochet and embroider all through the >50s and 60s (indeed I remember that it was she who told me that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >industrial sewing machines to make mens suits out of pre-cut >Yorkshire worsted. She and her colleagues were called "machinists". My mother was a machinist before she got married, and I recall having to explain the term here some years ago. She had an industrial sewing machine installed at home and after school I'd cycle to various textile factories to pick up and deliver work for her. My wife spends much of her spare time knitting baby clothes for a charity, using wool donated by shops and wholesalers. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > > Still, one seldom hears of "seamsters"....r > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > more common word spelled the same way. 'Tailor' seems to imply > professional, as well as male. Years ago I was in a band which covered the Animal's version of 'the House of the Rising Sun' (let's face it, who wasn't?) Every time the singer got to the line: 'My mother was a tailor ' The drummer[1] would shout from the back: "-ess!" After a while we all started doing it... DC [1] He was a surprisingly literate drummer. -- Mike Harvey: > I could add that, in modern times, it is common to remove gender > specific endings from names of occupations where it is possible for > the worker to be of either sex, so that firemen are called "fire > fighters"... Not the ones who are part of a steam locomotive crew, though. (I wonder how many women have ever done this as their primary job.) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "...blind faith can ruin the eyesight-- msb@vex.net | and the perspective." --Robert Ludlum contrex wrote, in <50e5e215-87d1-4f87-a3fc-ee3c7112a0e3@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com> on Sat, 2 Jan 2010 05:05:42 -0800 (PST): > > Are tailors considered: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > distinguishing the work of an outstanding craftsperson > "craftsmanship", probably out of habit. Crafts people has an aura of peace, love and bean sprouts to me. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > contrex wrote, in > <50e5e215-87d1-4f87-a3fc-ee3c7112a0e3@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Crafts people has an aura of peace, love and bean sprouts to me. Can somebody open a window, please? DC -- Django wrote on Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:49:25 GMT: >> contrex wrote, in >> <50e5e215-87d1-4f87-a3fc-ee3c7112a0e3@z41g2000yqz.googlegroup [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> Crafts people has an aura of peace, love and bean sprouts to >> me. > Can somebody open a window, please? "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an impression of skill as "craftsman". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Django wrote on Sat, 02 Jan 2010 18:49:25 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an > impression of skill as "craftsman". Maybe it does in the Romance languages, where they don't have the choice. SignatureJames > "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in > "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an > impression of skill as "craftsman". I think "artisan' is beginning to pick up the implication of skilfulness. It should be, to judge by the prices charged for anything artisanal. SignatureCheryl > > "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in > > "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Cheryl It seems that some purveyors of dairy produce eschew both artisanship and crafthood whilst aspiring to even greater recognition of their journeyman skills: http://www.chateauxcheese.com/ Redshade (TFIC). > "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in > "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an > impression of skill as "craftsman". I like "artisan", but have problems with "artisanal" - it always makes me think the cheese should be coming out of the ground in a fountain. I accept that this is entirely due to my mind being warped. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in >> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > me think the cheese should be coming out of the ground in a fountain. I > accept that this is entirely due to my mind being warped. And how do you pronunce "artisanal"? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in >>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And how do you pronunce "artisanal"? I don't! Genuinely, I don't think I've ever said it and I'm uncertain I've heard it. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in >>>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I don't! Genuinely, I don't think I've ever said it and I'm uncertain >I've heard it. I don't think I've heard it spoken. I've certainly read it and heard it in my mind's ear as "artisan-ul". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in >>>>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I don't think I've heard it spoken. I've certainly read it and heard it >in my mind's ear as "artisan-ul". I'm sure I've heard it (more than once) pronounced with the stress on the second syllable (as in, for instance, invisible). I'm trying to remember under what circumstances I've heard it, and I can only think it must have been on BBC Radio 4's Food Programme and the like. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>> "Artisan" seems to have been adopted as gender-unspecific term, as in >>>>>> "artisanal cheese" but, to me, it does not quite convey such an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > remember under what circumstances I've heard it, and I can only think > it must have been on BBC Radio 4's Food Programme and the like. That's the only stress recorded in the OED. SignatureJames > Are tailors considered: > > - craftsmen > or > - crafts people (I don't think so) If your question is about their status, rather than the appropriate form of the word, the answer seems to be yes, though I will add that personally it seems a strange use. The AHD 4th says of all variants of crafts--- (man, woman, person, people), "[a/n] ------ who practices a craft with great skill." Of 'craft' itself, it gives several senses, but the applicable one would be 3a: "an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or skilled artistry". As I say, to me it sounds strange to call tailoring a craft. But that may be idiosyncratic. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >> Are tailors considered: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > As I say, to me it sounds strange to call tailoring a craft. But that > may be idiosyncratic. In the days of the guilds, tailoring was certainly a craft. OED: c1400 MANDEVILLE: "All maner of craftez, ... talyour craft and sowter craft and swilk oþer. 1484 CAXTON: "A tayller ... as good a workman of his craft, as ony ... at that tyme in alle the world." SignatureJames >> Are tailors considered: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > As I say, to me it sounds strange to call tailoring a craft. But that > may be idiosyncratic. I think it is idiosyncratic, as I can't imagine what else tailoring could be. But I once gave some amateur-arty ladies cause for thought when I mentioned that many of those at the local college were craft students: I meant toolmakers, plumbers, joiners and so on, while the image that came to their minds was of lampshade-making and poker-work. SignatureMike. [...] > I think [an objection to tailoring as a craft] is idiosyncratic, as I > can't imagine what else tailoring could be. But I once gave some > amateur-arty ladies cause for thought when I mentioned that many of > those at the local college were craft students: I meant toolmakers, > plumbers, joiners and so on, while the image that came to their minds > was of lampshade-making and poker-work. I think my perceptual idiosyncrasy is related. The operative phrase from the AHD was "manual dexterity or skilled artistry". I recognize that the guilds, as James aptly pointed out, considered tailoring a craft, but in my mind the "skilled artistry" part dominates; a guild tailor (or a member of any craft guild) would, I suspect, be thought not merely manually dexterous but also artistically skilled, at least to a degree above what one might call a "seamster" (or whatever equivalent for the given craft). That, I suppose, is why a modern tailor as "craftsman" sandpapers my intuition. (Not to argue that no modern tailors are artistically skilled--only that so describing the common run of the trade seems inappropriate.) SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >I think it is idiosyncratic, as I can't imagine what else tailoring >could be. But I once gave some amateur-arty ladies cause for thought >when I mentioned that many of those at the local college were craft >students: I meant toolmakers, plumbers, joiners and so on, while the >image that came to their minds was of lampshade-making and poker-work. Telephone-company devices like switches don't have "console ports", they have "craft interfaces". "Craft" is used in that field to refer to members of the technicians' union. (Where as, in construction, the word would be "trade".) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >>> Are tailors considered: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > students: I meant toolmakers, plumbers, joiners and so on, while the > image that came to their minds was of lampshade-making and poker-work. There's a bit of overlap, I think. I'd call the toolmakers etc. tradesmen, but the people who train people in textile studies work in the same college - but I think it's under 'Applied Arts'. However, although I'd call most tradesmen 'tradesmen', I might say 'Joe's a real craftsman' meaning his plumbing or plastering or whatever it was was of a very high quality. Hmmm, looking at the site: http://www.cna.nl.ca/ Textile Studies is an art-based program that provides hands-on training in craft, with a major emphasis on the textile media. The general goal of the program is to provide a flexible diploma-level of study that will permit persons to explore and develop skills in the area of textile design and production. and they have: * School of Academics * School of Applied Arts * School of Business * School of Engineering Technology * School of Health Sciences * School of Industrial Trades * School of Information Technology * School of Tourism & Natural Resources They don't mention 'craft' with respect to plumbers. I didn't check all their other programs. SignatureCheryl > Are tailors considered: > > - craftsmen > or > - crafts people (I don't think so) What I would think, and I didn't notice anyone mention, is that it is "trade," not "craft." 679,000 for "tailor * his trade" 43 for "tailor * his craft" SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Are tailors considered: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 679,000 for "tailor * his trade" > 43 for "tailor * his craft" On the other hand, 490,000 for "craftsman * his trade" so the terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |...as a mobile phone is analogous 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to a Q-Tip -- yeah, it's something Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you stick in your ear, but there |all resemblance ends. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Ross Howard (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Are tailors considered: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > so the terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive. British E often uses "trade" as a synonym of "craft", but the latter is the term generally used in formal descriptions: a technical college has "craft students" as distinct from other kinds. On the other hand, on a building site, the craftsmen will be referred to as "tradesmen". Non-fighting skills in the army are called "trades". Again, in the intelligence services the characteristic skills required are called "tradecraft". There are complications, which I think we've mentioned already. SignatureMike. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.