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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010rogue gunman
Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone who indiscriminately shoots people like the military doctor in Fort Hood? Would it be British as well as American usage? And what would you call a driver who went berserk and plowed into a crowd of people? A rogue driver? Or rather a berserk or lunatic driver? Would his act be called a mad drive or what? I would much appreciate your answers. Cheers, Ho > Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone who > indiscriminately [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Cheers, > Ho I'm reminded of the old novel 'Rogue Male'. You could call such a killer a 'rogue gunman', but I don't think that's the most common usage now. I think they are usually referred to as mass murderers, in North America anyway. I wouldn't call the driver 'rogue', 'berserk', 'lunatic' or 'mad'. If he did it deliberately, he would also be a mass murderer. More frequently, such incidents seem to be caused by someone (often elderly)confusing the gas pedal with the brake, or by the driver suffering a heart attack or seizure while driving. Those incidents would be merely accidents, even if the cause was mental confusion in the driver. 'Berzerk' is used for someone in a sudden rage who goes way beyond what is necessary to kill someone else. That might cause the person to become a mass murderer, but I think it also implies overkill. That is, a mass murderer might decide to use a car to kill a group of people. If he were also berzerk, he would keep driving back and forth over the bodies until he calmed down. Oh, and the novel was about a man who went outside all the legal boundaries and constraints to attempt to murder an unnamed European political leader (whose identity is easy to guess since the book was set just before WW II). So he (the protagonist) was a rogue in the sense that he was completely outside the law and any other restraint.  SignatureCheryl >> Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone who >> indiscriminately [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > just before WW II). So he (the protagonist) was a rogue in the sense > that he was completely outside the law and any other restraint. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this use of "rogue" comes from "rogue elephant" - a dangerous wild elephant. SignatureDavid >>> Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone >>> who indiscriminately shoots people like the military doctor in [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this use of "rogue" comes > from "rogue elephant" - a dangerous wild elephant. I think you're absolutely right. As the OED shows, it was first applied to "An elephant driven away, or living apart, from the herd, and of a savage or destructive disposition", then to other large wild animals, then to disobedient horses, and finally to humans in the sense of "out of control" -- quite far from the original senses of lazy or rascally. SignatureJames [...] >>> I'm reminded of the old novel 'Rogue Male'. [...] >>> Oh, and the novel was about a man who went outside all the legal >>> boundaries and constraints to attempt to murder an unnamed European [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > sense of "out of control" -- quite far from the original senses of > lazy or rascally. Household's title alludes, of course, to this characterisation of animals: "rogue male" wouldn't have been a very natural expression for a human, and plain "rogue" would have sounded more like the local tea-leaf than an assassin. Indeed, in "roguish" we see that the word has been diluted and shifted in the direction of cuteness. But we now have "rogue states" --countries which one disapproves of and which do illegal things on the international stage. One's own country and allies, of course, are rarely rogue states, whatever they may do. SignatureMike. >[...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >on the international stage. One's own country and allies, of course, are >rarely rogue states, whatever they may do. Well I still think of "rogue" in terms of elephants -- creatures that are large, powerful, unpredictable and dangerous, and likely to attack without provocation. I'm not sure who thinks of that kind of behaviour as "cute" -- I don't. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > attack without provocation. I'm not sure who thinks of that kind of > behaviour as "cute" -- I don't. Nobody does, and I didn't say any did. I referred to the adjective "roguish", which does _not_ imply danger or aggression. OED has: < 3. Playfully mischievous; arch, waggish. >, and the most pejorative use it gives is < 2. Acting (or wandering) like rogues; knavish or rascally in conduct.> The application of the noun "rogue" to solitary dangerous animals isn't (so far in OED) recorded earlier than 1859. SignatureMike. >>> [...] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >conduct.> The application of the noun "rogue" to solitary dangerous >animals isn't (so far in OED) recorded earlier than 1859. It's not the noun, it's the adjective. Yes, a rogue is a rascally fellow who might have some lovable traits. But the adjective, as in "rogue elephant" or "rogue gunman" or "rogue state" is a different matter. We're in ASBO territory here. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk [...] >>>>> I think you're absolutely right. As the OED shows, it was first >>>>> applied to "An elephant driven away, or living apart, from the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > It's not the noun, it's the adjective. No, it's the noun. In "rogue elephant" it's used attributively; and sometimes the word is used without naming the animal. OED agrees with me. > Yes, a rogue is a rascally fellow who might have some lovable traits. > > But the adjective, as in "rogue elephant" or "rogue gunman" or "rogue > state" is a different matter. We're in ASBO territory here. Yes: we mentioned that several messages ago. See above. SignatureMike. >>> Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone who >>> indiscriminately [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this use of "rogue" comes from > "rogue elephant" - a dangerous wild elephant. Do you know, that interpretation never occured to me when I read the book, but it certainly fits. It was a clever title. SignatureCheryl >Another query: Is rogue gunman the proper expression for someone who indiscriminately >shoots people like the military doctor in Fort Hood? Would it be British as well as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I would much appreciate your answers. >Cheers, You could describe the person as a "rogue gunman"*, but there is no "proper expression" to describe that person. The connotation of "proper expression" is that this is the expression that best describes the person. Since each situation is different, there can be no best way to describe it. The uses of "rogue" are generally descriptions of someone in a specific group who commits acts that are contrary to what is expected of someone in that group. The car driver would not be a rogue because he/she is not part of group that held to certain expectations. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:10:23 +0100, "Holger Freese" > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of someone in that group. The car driver would not be a rogue because > he/she is not part of group that held to certain expectations. But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons or things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral example, if someone spoke of a rogue computer program, I'd understand it to have, to a degree, the character of malware. Things must be different in AmE, or why would an ambitious politician entitle her autobiography "Going Rogue"? This is exactly what the Omrud's elephants do before they are shot. This behaviour is not usually a vote-catcher, except perhaps in the BNP. -- franzi franzi filted: >> The uses of "rogue" are generally descriptions of someone in a >> specific group who commits acts that are contrary to what is expected >> of someone in that group. =A0The car driver would not be a rogue because >> he/she is not part of group that held to certain expectations. The car driver would most certainly belong to the group of "drivers", a group expected to maintain certain norms such as keeping to the street and not mowing down pedestrians on the sidewalk...that's almost a textbook example of rogue behavior.... >Things must be different in AmE, or why would an ambitious politician >entitle her autobiography "Going Rogue"? This is exactly what the >Omrud's elephants do before they are shot. This behaviour is not >usually a vote-catcher, except perhaps in the BNP. It's an odd feeling for me, defending that "ambitious politician", but the title is said to refer to what her handlers claimed she did during the 2008 campaign...wouldn't follow instructions, went off on her own...by adopting the phrase herself, one might even say she was speaking ironically....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > franzi filted: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > campaign...wouldn't follow instructions, went off on her own...by adopting the > phrase herself, one might even say she was speaking ironically....r That is, shall I say, very courageous of her. But I must remember that she didn't ask my opinion. -- franzi ... > > >Things must be different in AmE, or why would an ambitious politician > > >entitle her autobiography "Going Rogue"? This is exactly what the > > >Omrud's elephants do before they are shot. By the way, is "rogue elephant" any different from "elephant in musth"? > > >This behaviour is not > > >usually a vote-catcher, except perhaps in the BNP. The difference may be more in American culture. We've had many decades of heroes, from Retief to Rambo, who defy authority with results that turn out to be the best for everyone. (Actually, I don't know how far that describes Rambo, but I'm sure he's a hero.) > > It's an odd feeling for me, defending that "ambitious politician", but the title > > is said to refer to what her handlers claimed she did during the 2008 > > campaign...wouldn't follow instructions, went off on her own...by adopting the > > phrase herself, one might even say she was speaking ironically....r And allusively. It was quite a while after I heard the title of her book that I remembered the symbol of her political party is the elephant. > That is, shall I say, very courageous of her. Well, that's one view. > But I must remember that she didn't ask my opinion. Or mine, but boy, I have one. (As Archie Goodwin once said.) -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >By the way, is "rogue elephant" any different from "elephant in >musth"? Don't think so...roguery is pure tantrum; musth has a purpose of sorts.... >> > It's an odd feeling for me, defending that "ambitious politician", but = >the title [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >book that I remembered the symbol of her political party is the >elephant. I don't know that credit her with thinking on that many levels at once....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't think so... That is, you do think so? > roguery is pure tantrum; Or lifestyle, according to Wikipedia, which supports the distinction you made. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#Social_behavior > musth has a purpose of sorts.... Speaking of irony, the Wikip article on her quotes her as saying Walter Monegan, the man fired in "Troopergate", was guilty of "egregious rogue behavior". It cites http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/528420.html > >> > It's an odd feeling for me, defending that "ambitious politician", but = > >the title [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I don't know that credit her with thinking on that many levels at once....r She has people to add levels for her. For that matter, though her background is in journalism, she collaborated with the conservative journalist Lynn Vincent and with editors at Harper Collins, according to this AP article. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/entertainment/2009959513_apusbookspalin.html I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): A Short Palin Ode Strophe: Sarah seemed able to think on one level at once: A horse-hockey mom who let hunters kill wolves, a dunce. Antistrophe: Now I ship oars from the Palin's-an-imbecile vogue: This dangerous elephant's book is called /Going Rogue/. -- Jerry Friedman > I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in > ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Now I ship oars from the Palin's-an-imbecile vogue: > This dangerous elephant's book is called /Going Rogue/. Anything I can cant you recant better. SignatureJames >> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in >> ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Anything I can cant you recant better. The woman gives me palindromic pains. (Which aren't what one might have thought, but go for it, lads.) SignatureMike. >>> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in >>> ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >The woman gives me palindromic pains. (Which aren't what one might have >thought, but go for it, lads.) I had a friend who had Palindromic Rheumatism. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in >>>> ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I had a friend who had Palindromic Rheumatism. Was he from Bolton? SignatureJames James Hogg wrote, in <hi2729$r87$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:34:42 +0100: > >>>> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in > >>>> ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Was he from Bolton? No, it was original equipment. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >>>>> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in >>>>> ahead of our laureate (as far as I know): [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Was he from Bolton? She wasn't. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >James Hogg wrote: >>> I believed what you do, but I'm retracting it just so I can get in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >The woman gives me palindromic pains. (Which aren't what one might have >thought, but go for it, lads.) Too many thoughts, not enough time... British pollies have caught the American idea of running for election rather than standing still, for inspection as it were. One of my wishes: that I could find again The Running, Jumping & Standing Still film. Jumping for election? Now there's a thought. When Sarah goes recursive and runs again, then you will find your palindrome, of course. And she brings to mind (for reasons unknown) the Divine Sarah, or Sara, Bernhardt, or Bernard, or Bernardt, of shifty background and reputation (remember Tom Lehrer's song 'Alma'?). Whether Wikipedia is true or false, it will save my keyboard if I point to the page: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bernhardt>. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff filted: >British pollies have caught the American idea of running for election >rather than standing still, for inspection as it were. One of my wishes: >that I could find again The Running, Jumping & Standing Still film. It appears to be available as an extra on the BBC DVD "The Peter Sellers Story", and someone has kindly put it up as a bit torrent at http://thebox.bz ...since my ratio's in good shape I've added it to my download queue; we shall see how long it takes to complete....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? [palinode] > Anything I can cant you recant better. *Shuffles modestly* I used to go to Temple Emanu El near Cleveland, so I had a good example in the Emanu El cantor. I'll just lope off now. -- Jerry Friedman > [palinode] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'll just lope off now. Don't forget your coat. By the way, are you the first person to draw attention (albeit indirectly) to the fact that Greek "palin" means "backward"? Her opponents could have made political capital of that if they had known their Greek. I don't ever remember coming across a "palinode", before, so thanks for that. And to Mike's "palindromic pains" I can add the interesting word "palinspastic", with a meaning that is actually much better than it sounds. The OED defines it as "Of a map, diagram, etc.: representing features, esp. layers of rock, in what are presumed to be their original positions." SignatureJames > > [palinode] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't forget your coat. Where is Ross Howard, anyway? (He was an a.u.e. poster, and I hope will be again, who often used the line "I'll get me coat.") > By the way, are you the first person to draw attention (albeit > indirectly) to the fact that Greek "palin" means "backward"? Her > opponents could have made political capital of that if they had known > their Greek. > I don't ever remember coming across a "palinode", before, so thanks for > that. The only poem I remember seeing classified that way is Yeats's "Easter 1916". At least it's a good one. > And to Mike's "palindromic pains" I can add the interesting word > "palinspastic", with a meaning that is actually much better than it > sounds. The OED defines it as "Of a map, diagram, etc.: representing > features, esp. layers of rock, in what are presumed to be their original > positions." I'd probably use some form of "reconstruct", but I'm saving "palinspastic" for when I need it. -- Jerry Friedman > > > I used to go to Temple Emanu El near Cleveland, so I had a good > > > example in the Emanu El cantor. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Where is Ross Howard, anyway? He became an entity, Honey Chile, and/or an SDC key. Not that that answers the question for mutton value. Time passes... -- franzi >> franzi filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > that > she didn't ask my opinion. Wasn't the cowboy song "The Streets of Laredo" based on an English song ("The Dying Rogue")? Oops! "The Unfortunate Rake". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streets_of_Laredo_(song) In US culture, a special place of admiration is maintained for mavericks (untamed/unbranded cattle, wandering outside the herd), for outlaws and for rogues. And we didn't come by that in an odd way. The Brits have traditions praising the rogue. Wasn't the Highwayman just such a romantic outlaw figure? And the lone knights of the Arthurian stories? Well, in the US, we don't just praise outlaw heroes. Traditional rugged individualism has led to some extremes, creating social problems in limited areas or times. So we have the ongoing tension about gun ownership, hunting animals regardless of season or sportsmanship, etc. Frankly, I think that is all SP has going for her, and many find it a total bore, but admire the chutzpah (Oh, oh. The Jews had such heroes, as well, and such spirit!) >Wasn't the cowboy song "The Streets of Laredo" based on an English >song ("The Dying Rogue")? Oops! "The Unfortunate Rake". > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streets_of_Laredo_(song) There are so many derivations that you can't say "based on" any particular version. A close antecedent to "Streets of Laredo" is "Locke Hospital". http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiLAREDST3;ttLAREDST3.html English or Irish, though? Locke Hospital was in Dublin, but a hospital for British soldiers with a venereal disease. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper wrote, in <3k9ck51rhfvtc0tdfbba32non404p7h106@4ax.com> on Thu, 07 Jan 2010 13:23:02 -0500: > >Wasn't the cowboy song "The Streets of Laredo" based on an English > >song ("The Dying Rogue")? Oops! "The Unfortunate Rake". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > English or Irish, though? Locke Hospital was in Dublin, but a > hospital for British soldiers with a venereal disease. There were Lock (no e) Hospitals in several places in the UK as well as in Dublin. The first was in London which opened in 1747. Most of their clientele were prostitutes, not soldiers or sailors. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons or >things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral >example, if someone spoke of a rogue computer program, I'd understand >it to have, to a degree, the character of malware. >Things must be different in AmE, or why would an ambitious politician >entitle her autobiography "Going Rogue"? This is exactly what the >Omrud's elephants do before they are shot. This behaviour is not >usually a vote-catcher, except perhaps in the BNP. I wasn't so much interested in the use of rogue but wanted to know what the usual expression is in British and American English for people who run or drive around killing others indiscriminately. In German we use "amok", e.g. "Amokschütze" for a gunman or "Amokfahrer" for a driver. Cheers, Ho >> But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons >> or things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > German we use "amok", e.g. "Amokschütze" for a gunman or "Amokfahrer" > for a driver. It doesn't sound natural to use "amok" as an adjective in English in that way. The set phrase is "to run amok", so we would talk about "a driver who ran amok", or possibly "a run-amok driver". The Google hits for "amok driver" were probably written by Germans and other non-native speakers. SignatureJames >> I wasn't so much interested in the use of rogue but wanted to know >> what the usual expression is in British and American English for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for "amok driver" were probably written by Germans and other non-native > speakers. And what ARE the English versions of "Amokschütze" for such a gunman or "Amokfahrer" for such a driver? Ho >>> I wasn't so much interested in the use of rogue but wanted to know >>> what the usual expression is in British and American English for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ho There aren't any. The closest you could come would be something like 'mass murderer' - and that wouldn't cover cases such as car accidents that kill many people, but in which the driver had a heart attack or something. SignatureCheryl Cheryl filted: >>>> I wasn't so much interested in the use of rogue but wanted to know >>>> what the usual expression is in British and American English for [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >that kill many people, but in which the driver had a heart attack or >something. They don't use it much in the (reputable) press any more, but the term of choice used to be "crazed"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons >>> or things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >for "amok driver" were probably written by Germans and other non-native >speakers. Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what I've seen. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of >>>> persons or things external or internal to the group. Thinking [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what > I've seen. I see 75 examples at Google News, not a large number, it is true, but enough to show that it's still in use. Interestingly, the first two examples concern elephants running amok. Then there's a story from The Telegraph ("Three policemen have been disciplined after four young women ran amok in a police station, dressing up in officers' clothing"), followed by a rather more serious story about the Yemen connection with "the US military psychiatrist Major Nidal Hasan who ran amok at Fort Hood". SignatureJames >> Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what >> I've seen. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "the US military psychiatrist Major Nidal Hasan who ran amok at > Fort Hood" John Brunner, in his novel "Stand on Zanzibar", invented the term "mucker" for one who runs amok. But it never caught on. I see that "amok" comes from an Indonesian word which is spelled "amuk". SignatureDavid [...] > John Brunner, in his novel "Stand on Zanzibar", invented the term > "mucker" for one who runs amok. But it never caught on. > > I see that "amok" comes from an Indonesian word which is spelled > "amuk". Malay /amoq/, I believe. I've seen "amuck" in older literature, though. The Indian Army Regs used to say that a sepoy who ran amok was to be "shot or cut down without parley". Since "mucker" already means "mate", I can see why the proposal might not have caught on. SignatureMike. >>>>> But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons >>>>> or things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > "the US military psychiatrist Major Nidal Hasan who ran amok at > Fort Hood". I use the expression quite frequently. This must say something about my life. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> But it also has connotations of destructiveness, whether of persons >>>>>> or things external or internal to the group. Thinking of a neutral [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >I use the expression quite frequently. This must say something about my >life. A mockery? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England [...] >>>> Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what >>>> I've seen. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > A mockery? There was a young fellow called Dockery... --oops!, sorry! Ladies present. SignatureMike. > [...] >>>>> Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > There was a young fellow called Dockery... > --oops!, sorry! Ladies present. Was he the one with the hickory dickory? -- Mike Page >Except in parodies, "running amok" is most unusual today, from what >I've seen. Yup, it makes headlines, bowling for Columbine. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:10:23 +0100, "Holger Freese" >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Omrud's elephants do before they are shot. This behaviour is not > usually a vote-catcher, except perhaps in the BNP. Her base in the Republican party isn't so far from the BNP, as I understand it. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire |
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