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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010I not having had ...
Hello: Is "I" still useable these days with non-finite verbal constructions such as this "having had?" Or should one use "me?" ----- Nothing elevated, I not having had the full High School for various reasons. The Diviners - Page 45 Margaret Laurence - Fiction - 2007 ----- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu In message <389b70ca-b7d9-44c6-8c83-2e1b3f8e005c@k9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, Marius Hancu <marius.hancu@gmail.com> writes >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >----- >-- To me, it seems to be grammatically correct, but the sentence is incomplete (and messy). "Not having had the full High School for various reasons" is an 'on the side' description of "me". However, the use of "I" suggests that a "I" should be associated directly with a verb (of which "I" is the subject). For example: "I, not having had the full High School for various reasons, never achieved great things".  SignatureIan Ian Jackson, I've never been so impressed by your ability put all the words together as I was on 1/5/2010 in saying: > In message > <389b70ca-b7d9-44c6-8c83-2e1b3f8e005c@k9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, Marius [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "I, not having had the full High School for various reasons, never achieved > great things". If one were to assume certain context, it is not an incomplete sentence. "Nothing" is the subject, and "elevated" is the predicate. Everything after the comma is a subordinate adjective clause. > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Margaret Laurence - Fiction - 2007 > ----- "I" in this sentence is certainly acceptable. I'd probably put "my" (which some might find even more pedantic than "I") if for some reason I needed the rest of the sentence to remain unchanged, but otherwise I'd probably write "Nothing elevated, as I had not had a full high school education, for various reasons". I've left the first two words unchanged, as I'm not sure what they mean without a context. Signatureathel > Is "I" still useable these days with non-finite verbal constructions > such as this "having had?" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Nothing elevated, I not having had the full High School for various > reasons. Correct as is, assuming context permits the overall sentence. "Me" would be horrible there. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >> Is "I" still useable these days with non-finite verbal constructions >> such as this "having had?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Correct as is, assuming context permits the overall sentence. "Me" > would be horrible there. "My" would be the best choice. (I'm guessing at context.) SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Is "I" still useable these days with non-finite verbal constructions >>> such as this "having had?" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "My" would be the best choice. (I'm guessing at context.) It certainly would if that is a simple gerund, as it seems to be. But the peculiar construction leaves room for the possibility that it is an awkward attempt at a compound-tense time-relational casting, along the lines of "I, not having finished my work, was obliged to stay up late." SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > >>> Is "I" still useable these days with non-finite verbal constructions > >>> such as this "having had?" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > awkward attempt at a compound-tense time-relational casting, along the > lines of "I, not having finished my work, was obliged to stay up late." Thank you all. Marius Hancu > On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 10:40:02 -0800, Skitt wrot >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > casting, along the lines of "I, not having finished my work, was > obliged to stay up late." It's the "nominative absolute", a kind of structural calque on the Latin ablative absolute. The "I" is necessarily correct, being the nominative form of the pronoun, and "having" is a verbal adjective. It's less awkward in the original, where the OP phrase would be something like "with-me-not-having-had ...". >> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 10:40:02 -0800, Skitt wrot >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > It's less awkward in the original, where the OP phrase would be > something like "with-me-not-having-had ...". Although my initial preference was for "my", I think you're right. The problem is that the sentence is very awkward (I'm still mystified by "Nothing elevated", for example) however one expresses it, and one really needs to to know exactly what the original author was trying to say in order to decide how best to say it. Signatureathel > "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > it, and one really needs to to know exactly what the original > author was trying to say in order to decide how best to say it. I read the book a long time ago and have no memory of the passage, but presumably the words are a sentence fragment deprecating the character's own use of language. Her letter, or something else she said or wrote, was "nothing elevated". I wonder if Marius will be having a go at _The Stone Angel_? I thought it was Laurence's best novel. <looks over shoulder> I found the portrayal of old Hagar Shipley facing death deeply moving, even though I was young at the time. > I read the book a long time ago and have no memory of the passage, but > presumably the words are a sentence fragment deprecating the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the portrayal of old Hagar Shipley facing death deeply moving, even > though I was young at the time. I thought that was a great book and a fascinating character, but I read it as an adult. At the time, it was one of the novels studied in the local high school, although I don't remember which level - probably grade 11 or 12. I wondered what on earth a group of teenagers would make of Hagar - especially the teenaged boys! SignatureCheryl [_The Diviners_] >> I wonder if Marius will be having a go at _The Stone Angel_? I >> thought it was Laurence's best novel. <looks over shoulder> I found [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > probably grade 11 or 12. I wondered what on earth a group of > teenagers would make of Hagar - especially the teenaged boys! Probably not much. I was in my early twenties, and that may have made the difference. > Although my initial preference was for "my", I think you're right. The > problem is that the sentence is very awkward (I'm still mystified by > "Nothing elevated", for example) however one expresses it, and one > really needs to to know exactly what the original author was trying to > say in order to decide how best to say it. I recognized the original reference as being the format of Google Books, so it was quite easy to find the actual text. A male character says he could have taken a job at somewhere-or-other -- but not a very high position ("nothing elevated"), because of his lack of education. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux |
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