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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010John Adams accents
What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents in HBO's John Adams? Drafting Declaration of Independence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Txi1687wo Meeting between John Adams and King George http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvn-bYVR2YI Abigail Adams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg0h_kdwvu4 --Iain > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Abigail Adamshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg0h_kdwvu4 Just looking at the first minute or so of the first clip, I wonder why Adams and Jefferson don't use different dialects, while Franklin does. See David Hackett Fischer's *Albion's Seed* for the localized sources of what should be their three different speech patterns, and see e.g. the Cambridge History of the English Language for inferences (from many sources) on pronunciation in past centuries. (No cable, so haven't seen the series.) > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (No cable, so haven't seen the series.) To my British ears, Jefferson and Adams have similar accents (a bit like Britain's West Country), and Adams is the odd one out. Listen to Steve Merchant (British actor\writer with a mild West Country accent) it sounds pretty similar to Jefferson. The way Jefferson say 'p'raaps' sounds a little West Country English, to me. The blond man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inNv1AJTuKY&feature=related --Iain > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > To my British ears, Jefferson and Adams have similar accents (a bit > like Britain's West Country), D'oh! I meant Jefferson and Franklin, with Adams as the odd one out. --Iain > > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I meant Jefferson and Franklin, with Adams as the odd one out. Listened again ... most obviously, Franklin is r-ful, the other two aren't (the great American shibboleth!); and note the "flat a's" in "lay the evils of slavery" at the very beginning. I know that Paul Giamatti (Adams) is American, but I don't know who the other two actors are. Doubtless the (frightfully expensive) DVD has a mini-documentary on the accents and the dialog coaches. > > > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > aren't (the great American shibboleth!); and note the "flat a's" in > "lay the evils of slavery" at the very beginning. Franklin has strong Rs, but I'm not quite convinced that Jefferson's Rs are absent where Franklin's are present. I am quite certain that if all three characters in the video were transported to modern Britain, the British would assume that Jefferson and Franklin were West Country Britons, and that Adams was an educated North American. I'm aware that this sounds paradoxical, given that Adams has the accent closest to RP. > I know that Paul Giamatti (Adams) is American, but I don't know who > the other two actors are. They are both British. --Iain > > > > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > They are both British. Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's Eliot Ness unwatchable?) Or if they sound the same to you, maybe that's their notion of what Americans sound like ... which I'm constantly complaining about in British TV shows such as As Time Goes By and Rumpole of the Bailey. And the Miss Marple series we had a few episodes of last summer. > > > > > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > > > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's > Eliot Ness unwatchable?) Yes, but I don't think it would prevail on this occasion, as the actors have been coached in the dialects. Here's an interview with the coach http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2008/03/theres-a-genera.html > Or if they sound the same to you, maybe that's their notion of what > Americans sound like I don't think so. Tom Wilkinson (Franklin), is good with American accents, and this sounds unlike his usual American accent. He seems to imitating this British accent, and thus sounds British: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1jZCde9pvE Jefferson seems to be doing likewise with his vowels, though his Rs, as you pointed out, are flatter. --Iain On Jan 9, 7:30 am, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote: > On Jan 9, 12:14 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > They are both British. Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's Eliot Ness unwatchable?) Or if they sound the same to you, maybe that's their notion of what Americans sound like ... which I'm constantly complaining about in British TV shows such as As Time Goes By and Rumpole of the Bailey. And the Miss Marple series we had a few episodes of last summer. ================================================================================== Connery is playing an Irishman in the Untouchables, he shouldn't sound American. Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they slip on. What was funny was Dominic West, an Englishman playing an American in the Wire once having to do an American doing an English accent when going under cover. To be fair to West none of the white American actors in the Wire were very good at doing the "Balimore" accent. Boston /New England accents get mangled by outsiders too, if you;'re not from here you can't fake it. > Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, > Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Boston /New England accents get mangled by outsiders too, if you;'re not > from here you can't fake it. What about Idris <something>, who played Stringer Bell? He's another Englishman but I had no idea when watching him.  SignatureDavid >> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >What about Idris <something>, who played Stringer Bell? He's another >Englishman but I had no idea when watching him. With a name like Idris you might guess that he is Welsh. However, he isn't. Idris is an abbreviation of Idrissa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_Elba SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > isn't. Idris is an abbreviation of Idrissa. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_Elba Idris when I's dry. Ads used to be on buses WIWAL. Politically incorrect these days. [aue only] SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >[aue only] It is bizarre that it is considered politically incorrect. When I saw the ads I understood the wording "I's" to be a British dialect thing similar to "I be...". The slogan was the anagrammatic "Idris when I's dri". From Headington.org (so it must be correct): http://www.headington.org.uk/adverts/drinks_soft.htm Idris lemonade I drink Idris when I's dri, Idris is the drink to buy, I drink Idris, I drink Idris, Idris when I's dri. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>>>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the ads I understood the wording "I's" to be a British dialect thing > similar to "I be...". I can't find any images online but the early 1950s adverts on the buses definitely showed a drawing of a black person. I think this was a cartoon depiction but I can't be sure. The ads were fairly small and placed in a frame above the rear glass of drivers cab - I can see in my mind's eye the folded brown blind that came down behind the driver and I can remember sitting in that front seat and being very bored on long journeys to Grandma's house. > The slogan was the anagrammatic "Idris when I's dri". > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I drink Idris, I drink Idris, > Idris when I's dri. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>>>>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >can remember sitting in that front seat and being very bored on long >journeys to Grandma's house. Ah. I must have seen those ads but the drawing of the black person didn't register. >> The slogan was the anagrammatic "Idris when I's dri". >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> I drink Idris, I drink Idris, >> Idris when I's dri. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>Idris when I's dry. Ads used to be on buses WIWAL. Politically incorrect >>these days. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I drink Idris, I drink Idris, > Idris when I's dri. For about the past year I haven't been able to find the stuff...used to be able to get it at the oxymoronically-named (by admission of the owner) British Gourmet in Scottsdale, but he stopped carrying it...nearby Pop The Soda Shop says they've never heard of it.... It turned up briefly at the Korean-owned (?!) Asiana Market but they too no longer stock it.... I don't remember a lemonade; the flavor I'm after was called "Fire"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >BrE filted: >>The slogan was the anagrammatic "Idris when I's dri". >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >I don't remember a lemonade; the flavor I'm after was called "Fire"....r It is possible that "lemonade" was used generically. I have met this usage occasionally in BrE. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >What about Idris <something>, who played Stringer Bell? He's another >Englishman but I had no idea when watching him. I have always been intrigued about the American accent, and how and when it evolved. Presumably, until the end of the 1700s, all Americans had British accents (of one sort or another). After independence, the USA probably had somewhat less contact with the motherland than it would have had otherwise, and I suspect that is when the accent which we now identify as American began to develop in earnest. However, while it is almost certain that, in the first half of the 1800s, most Americans were still speaking 'British', films often portray contemporary characters as having a strong American drawl. Surely this cannot be true? I doubt if people like Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie spoke this way - and certainly not the well-educated upper-class Americans. Also, communications were very poor, and the latest 'fashion in speaking' would not spread as quickly as it would today. Notwithstanding the probably incorrect portrayal of early Americans speaking broad American, up till the late 1930s, the characters in many American films do speak very correct, educated English, with an obvious - but not intrusive - American twang. Perhaps this is paralleled in British films where even ordinary people often talk with rather upper-class 'Cholmondley-Walker' accents, if necessary with a touch of Cockney, Scots or West Country thrown in to show that they are lower-class. It's very obvious that the American we hear today is not the American of the first half of the 1900s, and the same is true of British English. In fact, you don't have to go back more than 20 or 30 years (TV and radio archives) to realise that we did actually speak quite differently. Interviews from around the time of The Beatles sound very stilted indeed. But to get back to my original question, when did Americans really start to talk American? SignatureIan On Jan 10, 7:09 am, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In message <7Ai2n.24291$Ym4.13...@text.news.virginmedia.com>, the Omrud > <usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have always been intrigued about the American accent, and how and when > it evolved. There's no "the American accent." As I noted upthread, there are four well-recognized dialect regions in the US, because there were four separate acts of British settlement in the US, each originating from a different part of Britain (IIRC one of them wasn't from England proper), The distinctions are maintained to this day. > Presumably, until the end of the 1700s, all Americans had British > accents (of one sort or another). After independence, the USA probably > had somewhat less contact with the motherland than it would have had > otherwise, and I suspect that is when the accent which we now identify > as American began to develop in earnest. Of course, when "America" was no longer politically in "Britain," the accent changed overnight from "British" to "American"! But that had no effect on the development, or otherwise, of the language. In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more innovative, than American. Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. As I said upthread, the Cambridge History of the English Language provides considerable detail; for a more accessible account see books by David Crystal like *Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language* or *The Stories of English*. > However, while it is almost certain that, in the first half of the > 1800s, most Americans were still speaking 'British', films often portray meaningless > contemporary characters as having a strong American drawl. Surely this > cannot be true? I doubt if people like Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie spoke > this way - and certainly not the well-educated upper-class Americans. > Also, communications were very poor, and the latest 'fashion in > speaking' would not spread as quickly as it would today. Weren't Crockett and Bowie from Tennessee? Why do you imagine the Appalachian accent would have developed out of nothing within the last century and a half, rather than preserving traits inherited from the English dialect ancestor of the original settlers of the area? Communications were very poor, and the latest "fashion in speaking" -- which might tend to homogenize the speech of the land -- would not have been able to spread easily. Note, however, that in the last several decades, according to a vast project of data collection directed by William Labov, US regional speech seems to be _diverging_ faster than ever. > Notwithstanding the probably incorrect portrayal of early Americans > speaking broad American, up till the late 1930s, the characters in many [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cockney, Scots or West Country thrown in to show that they are > lower-class. Movie English (on both sides of the Ocean -- I will not say "Pond") was fake in the early years of talking pictures; they photographed stage actors talking Stage English. I don't know when a more realistic style came in in the British film industry, but in the US it's found with Preston Sturges in the late 30s, and then after the war with the popularity of stars like Marlon Brando and directors like Elia Kazan who emerged from "the Method." > It's very obvious that the American we hear today is not the American of > the first half of the 1900s, and the same is true of British English. In > fact, you don't have to go back more than 20 or 30 years (TV and radio > archives) to realise that we did actually speak quite differently. > Interviews from around the time of The Beatles sound very stilted > indeed. "Stiltedness" is not the point. (Did you know that the BBC used to record conversations, and maybe interviews, transcribe them, and have the participants read what they had said earlier?) But you certainly can hear linguistic differences in old (US) radio programs, especially comedies where they're (at least pretending to be) ad-libbing. > But to get back to my original question, when did Americans really start > to talk American? The moment they stepped off the boat. Whenever a speech community divides, and communication breaks off or becomes severely limited, the speech of the communities diverges, because language is constantly changing. Imperceptibly, of course, because grandparents have to be able to communicate with grandchildren, but speech from 4 or 5 generations apart will be quite noticeably different. I wonder how many candid conversations we have on record from a century ago -- such data would be invaluable. On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in <news:fec6b902-aec0-411f-9446-e9ca45db52ea@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang: [...] > As I said upthread, the Cambridge History of the English Language > provides considerable detail; for a more accessible account see books > by David Crystal like *Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language* > or *The Stories of English*. There is now also Richard M. Hogg & David Denison (eds.), _A History of the English Language_, CUP, 2006, pb 2009, which can be thought of as a condensed and summarized version of CHEL, with many of the same contributors. The review at <http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/hsl_shl/reviewHoggandDenison.htm> gives an accurate description. [...] Brian > On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > <http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/hsl_shl/reviewHoggandDenison.htm> > gives an accurate description. They didn't even bring it to the LSA ... they did have two copies of the giant Grammar on the first day, and this morning one of them was still there (but at 50%, someone took it). Two years ago they gave a much better deal -- $15 for any book on the last day: so I got the 5 vols. of the CHEL I didn't have. Taped two of their sturdy plastic bags together to comprise my second carry-on. > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > innovative, than American. It's normal, isn't it, for the "away" group to be more conservative than the "staying put" group when a language community splits? > Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th > century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. Is there any explanation for why this happened in much of England and some parts of the USA around the same period, or is it just coincidence? SignatureUsenet is a cesspool, a dung heap. [Patrick A. Townson] > > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > > innovative, than American. > > It's normal, isn't it, for the "away" group to be more conservative > than the "staying put" group when a language community splits? We're often told this. Have there actually been good studies? > > Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th > > century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. See Labov, Ash, and Boberg,_The Atlas of North American English_, Chapter 7, for non-rhotacism in the 15th through 18th centuries in England. Is that somehow consistent with your statement about the 18th century, Peter? http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch07_2nd.rev.pdf > Is there any explanation for why this happened in much of England and > some parts of the USA around the same period, or is it just > coincidence? Some remarks on that in the above pdf. -- Jerry Friedman On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:21:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in <news:664bca0a-739d-4f20-bd3e-ccc8b8087dd3@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang: [...] >>> Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th >>> century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. > See Labov, Ash, and Boberg,_The Atlas of North American > English_, Chapter 7, for non-rhotacism in the 15th > through 18th centuries in England. Is that somehow > consistent with your statement about the 18th century, > Peter? > http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch07_2nd.rev.pdf Yes. I quote from the .pdf: 'The general vocalization of post-vocalic /r/ is an eighteenth-century phenomenon. That there was what Roger Lass calls an aborted episode of /r/-loss in the 15th century is reasonably well-known, but it *was* aborted: its only relic in any standard variety of English is <a.s>, though several non-standard relics are also quite familiar (e.g., <cuss>, <hoss>, <passel>). [...] Brian > On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:21:09 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Yes. I quote from the .pdf: 'The general vocalization of > post-vocalic /r/ is an eighteenth-century phenomenon. My mistake. Peter wrote, "Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US." I mistyped my reference to his "19th" as "18th". (Maybe his "19th" was a typo too?) > That there was what Roger Lass calls an aborted episode of > /r/-loss in the 15th century is reasonably well-known, but > it *was* aborted: its only relic in any standard variety of > English is <a.s>, What about "bass" (the fish), from "barse"? The NSOED dates "bass" to Late Middle English. > though several non-standard relics are > also quite familiar (e.g., <cuss>, <hoss>, <passel>). That "aborted episode" is very strange. Makes me wonder what aborted it and whether it somehow had the same cause as the more permanent non- rhoticism that started three hundred years later. I suppose the answers to both may not be known. The NSOED says "cuss" dates to the late 18th century and is originally U.S. Is that information out of date? (It says the same about "bust", which I thought might be another relic of 15th-century non- rhoticism.) How does the spelling "juggernaut" for "jagganātha" in the 1630s fit into this history"? An aberration? -- Jerry Friedman > That there was what Roger Lass calls an aborted episode of > /r/-loss in the 15th century is reasonably well-known, but > it *was* aborted: its only relic in any standard variety of > English is <a.s>, though several non-standard relics are > also quite familiar (e.g., <cuss>, <hoss>, <passel>). A few months ago I was describing a piece of old farm equipment to someone from south Derbyshire, who called it a /'hAs reIk/ (which I would expect to be written "hoss-rake" --- I'm sure I've even seen this in print somewhere, although I can only get Google image results for "horse-rake"!). Unfortunately I'm not sure whether he would normally pronounce "horse" on its own as /hO:s/. Anyway ... does anyone know why "a.s" for "arse" persisted in AmE but died out in BrE? Signature"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence against chaos." (McMullen 2001) [...] > Anyway ... does anyone know why "a.s" for "arse" persisted in AmE but > died out in BrE? "a.s" was certainly in use, but I'm not sure how widespread it was. Perhaps as standard E became less rhotic, the "ah" sound, taken as a high-status marker, encouraged "arse". But I do like to think that "a.s"="arse" may have been responsible for the switch to the rather rare dialect "donkey" for the animal. SignatureMike. > > > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > > > innovative, than American. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > We're often told this. Have there actually been good studies? Well, I got it from R A Hall Jr's dialectology class. It was an effect discovered via the first linguistic atlases -- of French, German, and Italian. The US atlas project came later and showed the same phenomena. Viz., the center is innovative, the periphery is conservative. > > > Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th > > > century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > some parts of the USA around the same period, or is it just > > coincidence? In NYC it's attributed to the Dutch substratum (don't ask me why). In Boston and the South, were those settlers from regions that were in the vanguard of r-loss? > Some remarks on that in the above pdf. > > > > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > > > > innovative, than American. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Italian. The US atlas project came later and showed the same > phenomena. So people actually defined what they meant by innovation and conservatism and counted examples of both? I imagine that one could easily go wrong if one weren't careful. > Viz., the center is innovative, the periphery is > conservative. ... Does this hold true when the periphery is more populous than the center, as in comparing the U.S. to England as you did above, or Mexico to Spain? -- Jerry Friedman > > > > > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > > > > > innovative, than American. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > center, as in comparing the U.S. to England as you did above, or > Mexico to Spain? It wouldn't be much of an observation if it didn't. > > > > > > In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more > > > > > > innovative, than American. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > It wouldn't be much of an observation if it didn't. I feel sure that for German, French (in France), and Italian, the center(s) is or are more populous than any of the peripheral dialect regions, but the observation was thought worth making anyway. The situation for modern English and Spanish is very different. -- Jerry Friedman Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:06:10 -0800 (PST): Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>: in sci.lang: >I feel sure that for German, French (in France), and Italian, the >center(s) is or are more populous than any of the peripheral dialect >regions, but the observation was thought worth making anyway. The >situation for modern English and Spanish is very different. Some say pt-Br is closer to older forms of pt than pt-PT, but I doubt in. I think both have innovated, but in different ways. In the case of Dutch and Afrikaans, Afrikaans seems more innovative. SignatureRuud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com > Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:06:10 -0800 (PST): Jerry Friedman > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>: in sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > In the case of Dutch and Afrikaans, Afrikaans seems more innovative. Thanks, that's interesting. What I really want to know, though (and maybe no one here knows it) is whether people have done studies in which they defined their terms and counted, both precisely. -- Jerry Friedman > Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:06:10 -0800 (PST): Jerry Friedman > <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>: in sci.lang: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > In the case of Dutch and Afrikaans, Afrikaans seems more innovative. With Afrikaans it appears that there may have been a bit of creolization involved as well, which will tend to work against grammatical conservativism. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:14:50 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@verizon.net>: in sci.lang: >> http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch07_2nd.rev.pdf >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >In NYC it's attributed to the Dutch substratum (don't ask me why). Postvocalic r varies a lot in today's Dutch too, but certainly isn't vocalised or lost everywhere. Seems unlikely that it was in the times when the Dutch were influential in Nieuw-Amsterdam. >In Boston and the South, were those settlers from regions that were in >the vanguard of r-loss? > >> Some remarks on that in the above pdf. SignatureRuud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com > See Labov, Ash, and Boberg,_The Atlas of North American English_, > Chapter 7, for non-rhotacism in the 15th through 18th centuries in > England. Is that somehow consistent with your statement about the > 18th century, Peter? > > http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch07_2nd.rev.pdf Thanks for the link. I just got around to reading this and was somewhat surprised to learn non-rhotic pronunciation had been deliberately taught in the USA (I assume the article means widely, not just in areas that were non-rhotic anyway) in the early 20th century. SignatureOh, I am just a student, sir, and I only want to learn But it's hard to read through the rising smoke of the books that you want to burn [Phil Ochs] >> In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more >> innovative, than American. > > It's normal, isn't it, for the "away" group to be more conservative > than the "staying put" group when a language community splits? That's certainly what I was taught. >> Loss of post-vocalic r seems to have set in in the early 19th >> century in part of England but didn't happen in most of the US. > > Is there any explanation for why this happened in much of England > and some parts of the USA around the same period, or is it just > coincidence? It isn't merely "home" vs. "away", it's the distance from the linguistic center, measured, roughly, in terms of the amount of linguistic contact you have and exposure to the latest fads. Cities like Boston and New York as well as the South apparently had more contact with England than most of the rest of the colonies (and the US following independence), which in turn had more contact than the western territories and mountain regions. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!" Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Yes, but I didn't tell them that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out," (650)857-7572 |said Susan. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> In fact, in many ways English speech is less conservative, more >>> innovative, than American. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >following independence), which in turn had more contact than the >western territories and mountain regions. Didn't the cotton growers of Georgia also have a good deal of contact with England, where the crop was usually sold, in the early days of America? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>It isn't merely "home" vs. "away", it's the distance from the >>linguistic center, measured, roughly, in terms of the amount of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with England, where the crop was usually sold, in the early days of > America? Yes. I was counting them as "South". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands |to yourself. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>It isn't merely "home" vs. "away", it's the distance from the >>>linguistic center, measured, roughly, in terms of the amount of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yes. I was counting them as "South". Gotcha. It would be that. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words they [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >But to get back to my original question, when did Americans really start >to talk American? Just repeat a point that our US posters make from time to time: the American accents familiar from movies and TV are a very limted subset of the full range of accents spoken in the US. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > But to get back to my original question, when did Americans really start > to talk American? Crocket and Bowie being children of the 19th century probably spoke with accents of their home regions. I'd imagine a shift in accent started pretty early as people from different regions moved to America and the accents began to homogenize. >>>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >I'd imagine a shift in accent started pretty early as people from different >regions moved to America and the accents began to homogenize. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett 1786-1836) Born and grew up in Tennessee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bowie (1796-1836) Born in Kentucky, spent most of his life in Louisiana. I doubt if either spoke like (say) John Wayne! SignatureIan >>>>> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >>>>> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > I doubt if either spoke like (say) John Wayne! Nor like Richard Widmark either. Jim Bowie was a serial killer psychopath. > > In message <7Ai2n.24291$Ym4.13...@text.news.virginmedia.com>, the Omrud > > <usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > I'd imagine a shift in accent started pretty early as people from different > regions moved to America and the accents began to homogenize.- But they DIDN'T begin to homogenize. The only places where "General American" prevails are areas that were settled suddenly by people from everywhere -- viz., California -- and there were no local norms to conform to. And then, of course, California grew its own variety/ies, as is only to be expected with the arrival of new generations of language-acquirers. >> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, >> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What about Idris <something>, who played Stringer Bell? He's another > Englishman but I had no idea when watching him. I hadn't looked up where he was from. He does do a good job. Dialect coaching has come a long way from the Cary Grant days. Half the cast of Band of Brothers were non-Americans. > >> Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, > >> Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some words [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Dialect coaching has come a long way from the Cary Grant days. > Half the cast of Band of Brothers were non-Americans.- Surely Cary Grant never had (or felt the need) for dialect coaching. Nor did, famously, Clark Gable as Rhett Butler. On Jan 10, 11:05 am, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > "the Omrud" <usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Dialect coaching has come a long way from the Cary Grant days. > Half the cast of Band of Brothers were non-Americans.- Surely Cary Grant never had (or felt the need) for dialect coaching. Nor did, famously, Clark Gable as Rhett Butler. ============================================================================== When they make a movie set in Boston one only notices the accents when they try to fake it. Ray O'Hara filted: >Surely Cary Grant never had (or felt the need) for dialect coaching. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >When they make a movie set in Boston one only notices the accents when they >try to fake it. So few of the actors on "The Andy Griffith Show" had anything resembling genuine southern accents that the few who *did* stood out....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Ray O'Hara filted: >>When they make a movie set in Boston one only notices the accents >>when they try to fake it. > > So few of the actors on "The Andy Griffith Show" had anything > resembling genuine southern accents that the few who *did* stood > out....r Looking at Wikipedia, Griffith is the only one actually from North Carolina. Jim Nabors and George Lindsey (Gomer and Goober Pyle) are both from Alabama, Ron Howard (Opie) is from Oklahoma, and Don Knotts (Barney Fife) is from West Virginia. None of the rest appear to have been from near the South. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer |until the Messiah comes. I suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them. (650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Ray O'Hara filted: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(Barney Fife) is from West Virginia. None of the rest appear to have >been from near the South. I was in Mt Airy NC ("Mayberry" in the show) in November. It is in North Carolina, but just across the Virginia state line. We were driving from one place in Virginia to another place in Virginia and looped down through Mt Airy because it was a better route. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> So few of the actors on "The Andy Griffith Show" had anything >> resembling genuine southern accents that the few who *did* stood [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(Barney Fife) is from West Virginia. None of the rest appear to have >been from near the South. I thought I had remembered that Frances Bavier (Aunt Bee) was from Virginia, but Wikipedia (!) says otherwise...she did move to Siler City, North Carolina when she retired from acting.... Probably the most convincing of the fake southerners was Howard Morris (Ernest T Bass), born--surprisingly--in the Bronx...while he did occasionally lay it on a little thick, most of the time he was true to the character....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Bass), born--surprisingly--in the Bronx...while he did occasionally lay it on a > little thick, most of the time he was true to the character....r He'd been around for decades on the radio. > Brit and some Aussie actors do fine with American accents, > Damian Lewis, Hugh Laurie are mostly very good but there are some > words they slip on. What was funny was Dominic West, an Englishman > playing an American in the Wire once having to do an American doing > an English accent when going under cover. Similarly, in the US version of "Life on Mars", Irish actor Jason O'Mara played American Sam Tyler, who at one point went undercover as an Irishman. Brian SignatureDay 343 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project <snip> >(Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's >Eliot Ness unwatchable?) I find him impossible to watch as any film character but the one he created, as the famous James Bond. And I have found every other actor playing Bond, unwatchable. Of course, this stereotyping is what Sean Connery feared would happen, after he appeared in a number of Bond films. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > >>(Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's >>Eliot Ness unwatchable?) I never saw it. > I find him impossible to watch as any film character but the one he > created, as the famous James Bond. And I have found every other > actor > playing Bond, unwatchable. I agree with you on that. >Of course, this stereotyping is what Sean > Connery feared would happen, after he appeared in a number of Bond > films. Maybe. But I liked his interpretation in "The Hunt for Red October", (to name a blockbuster) and another film that not many talk about, "The Hill": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059274/ What a cast! >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > What a cast! The Hill is a good flick isn't it. It shows up on late night TV on occasion. Pat wrote on Sun, 10 Jan 2010 12:34:43 -0600: >> <snip> >> >>> (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's >>> Eliot Ness unwatchable?) >> > I never saw it. >> I find him impossible to watch as any film character but the one he >> created, as the famous James Bond. And I have found >> every other actor playing Bond, unwatchable. > I agree with you on that. >> Of course, this stereotyping is what Sean >> Connery feared would happen, after he appeared in a number of >> Bond films. > Maybe. But I liked his interpretation in "The Hunt for Red > October", (to name a blockbuster) and another film that not > many talk about, "The Hill": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059274/ I'm sure Connery cries all the way to the bank. Mind you, I wish I looked as well as he does even in luggage ads! SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Pat wrote on Sun, 10 Jan 2010 12:34:43 -0600: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >I'm sure Connery cries all the way to the bank. Mind you, I wish I >looked as well as he does even in luggage ads! Does he look good or well in them? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >What a cast! I haven't seen "The Hill", but THFRO was a crap movie, IMO, largely because it was based on a crap book, again in my opinion, but I am biased due to the fact I am familiar with the workings of submarines. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I find him impossible to watch as any film character but the one he > created, as the famous James Bond. I liked him in /The Man Who Would be King/, though I was much younger then. > And I have found every other actor > playing Bond, unwatchable. ... The best Bonds, of course, were David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress, Barbara Bouchet, Joanna Pettet, Terence Cooper, Daliah Lavi, and Woody Allen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_Royale_%281967_film%29 -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >> And I have found every other actor >> playing Bond, unwatchable. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Andress, Barbara Bouchet, Joanna Pettet, Terence Cooper, Daliah Lavi, >and Woody Allen. The original was Fred Truesdell, in 1917's "Outwitted": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0008400/ ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0008400/ No one complained about his accent. SignatureJames On Jan 10, 8:18 am, Chuck Riggs <chri...@eircom.net> wrote: > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I find him impossible to watch as any film character but the one he > created, as the famous James Bond. I liked him in /The Man Who Would be King/, though I was much younger then. ======================================================================== The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. I like Connery, he doesn't pretend to be high art, he just makes good action movies. > The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun > swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. > I like Connery, he doesn't pretend to be high art, he just makes good action > movies. Have you seen Avatar yet? By some accounts, it's The Man Who Would Be King plus terrific special effects and a happy ending. -- VB >> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Have you seen Avatar yet? By some accounts, it's The Man Who Would Be > King plus terrific special effects and a happy ending. My brother and b-i-l took assorted kids to see it, and were painfully underwhelmed: I gather the whole thing could have been done better, and without missing anything out, in under half the time. But it was, it seems, only the sfx which held any interest, and the moralizing was crude. And what a nerve to make them pay for the glasses! SignatureMike. >>> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >>> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > seems, only the sfx which held any interest, and the moralizing was > crude. And what a nerve to make them pay for the glasses! I quite enjoyed it, even if it did nasty things to my vertigo. I'm not sure that "happy ending" is the right description. Apart from anything else, it gets pretty violent towards the end. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >>> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > seems, only the sfx which held any interest, and the moralizing was > crude. And what a nerve to make them pay for the glasses! The story was crude, but the effects and production were splendid and I didn't actually get bored at all despite the length. Some of the dialogue was awful, but in the end I forgave its faults. We were handed glasses on the way in - there was no charge made, although I suppose it might have been included in the ticket price. I still have them - they are quite sturdy. SignatureDavid >>>> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >>>> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >although I suppose it might have been included in the ticket price. I >still have them - they are quite sturdy. I thought The Man Who Would be King was crummy, overrated and not worth watching a second time for a number of reasons, but the Radio Times gave it five stars, their highest rating. Their reviewer wrote: This colourful movie version of Rudyard Kipling's right royal 19th-century adventure stars Sean Connery and Michael Caine as the veteran army squaddies who bamboozle a remote mountain tribe in Afghanistan into accepting Connery's regal credentials. Greed and circumstances topple the comic elements of the tale into a serious fable about the vanity of human endeavour and the folly of imperialism, in keeping with Kipling's original story and the philosophy of director John Huston's greatest movies. Huston matches character to action in masterly fashion, aided by the brief bonus of an aloof commentary on the situation by Christopher Plummer, as Kipling himself. This is packed with sly dialogue and memorable scenes, topped off by a stirring score from Maurice Jarre. TH SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >>>>> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Kipling himself. This is packed with sly dialogue and memorable > scenes, topped off by a stirring score from Maurice Jarre. TH I thought it was a ripping yarn. SignatureJames >>>>>> The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun >>>>>> swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >I thought it was a ripping yarn. Spectacular, colourful crap, is what it was, IMHO. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > > The Man Who Would be King and The Wind and The Lion, were two fun > > swashbucklers, good saturday matinee action movies. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Have you seen Avatar yet? By some accounts, it's The Man Who Would Be > King plus terrific special effects and a happy ending. Plus, I gather, "Call Me Joe", plus the _A Man Called Horse_, _Dances with Wolves_, _Schindler's List_, _Amistad_ genre. I wonder whether the ending of _The Man Who Would Be King_ was sad or happy. (Is that oikophobia?) I'm pretty sure it wasn't typical of fun swashbucklers. Obsci.lang: some here may be interested in Paul Frommer's discussion at Language Log of the Na'vi language that he created for _Avatar_. (Some here have already participated in that discussion.) http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1977 -- Jerry Friedman [sci.lang dropped] > > Have you seen Avatar yet? By some accounts, it's The Man Who Would Be > > King plus terrific special effects and a happy ending. > Plus, I gather, "Call Me Joe", plus the _A Man Called Horse_, _Dances > with Wolves_, _Schindler's List_, _Amistad_ genre. Something like that, yeah. Heavy-handed message and a setting contrived to support it, simplistic characters, all that stuff. *But* I strongly recommend seeing it anyway -- for the *visual* aspects. As a spectacle alone, it's nothing short of magnificent. Do not wait for TV for this one. (In short, it's just like "Titanic", only creating a fictional milieu instead of recreating a long-lost one.) I feel that 3-D in a movie is a gimmick, and did not see it in that mode. If you think it would make it better for you, by all means see it that way. Incidentally, I was in the US when I saw it, and one of the commercials before the movie was a recruiting ad for the Marines. *That* was good for a retroactive laugh after seeing the movie! SignatureMark Brader | "It doesn't have to actually *be* special, but you have Toronto | to make people think it is, and sometimes the easiest way msb@vex.net | to do that is to make it special." -- Peter Reiher My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >> > Have you seen Avatar yet? By some accounts, it's The Man Who Would Be >> > King plus terrific special effects and a happy ending. > >(In short, it's just like "Titanic", only creating a fictional milieu >instead of recreating a long-lost one.) But I'll bet if you watch closely during the credits, there's still a bit that says it's a work of fiction and that any resemblance to actual characters, institutions or events is purely coincidental.... (I about laughed myself dizzy when that bit of legal boilerplate came up at the end of Cronenberg's "The Fly")....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Mark Brader filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (I about laughed myself dizzy when that bit of legal boilerplate > came up at the end of Cronenberg's "The Fly")....r I did a bit of a doubletake when I saw the "No Animals Were Harmed in the Making of this Movie" disclaimer at the end of _Avatar_ and thought to myself, "Yeah, that's 'cause they're all CG". Then I realized that there were almost certainly animals used as motion capture models. I was surprised to note that the notice appeared to be missing from _Sherlock Holmes_, which does have a lot of animals. The company that monitors such things, on their web site says American Humane Certified Animal Safety Representatives were unable to directly supervise all of the animal action in _Sherlock Holmes_ because some of the animal action was filmed outside the U.S. and the production did not establish a contract for our oversight. American Humane did not monitor some of the dog action or any of the horse, camel, bird, fly and maggot action. http://www.ahafilm.info/movies/mr.phtml?fid=8098 My mind boggles at somebody sitting down and writing out rules for the humane handling of maggots. They confirmed my suspicion about _Avatar_ http://www.ahafilm.info/movies/mr.phtml?fid=8096 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |don't want it lying around where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to |it, but when you need one, you need kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will (650)857-7572 |do. | Bill McNutt http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Connery feared would happen, after he appeared in a number of Bond > films. I only saw one Bond movie ever (long, long, long ago -- couldn't say which one it was), but I devoured the books when I was 14 and didn't see what whichever movie it was had to do with the book it was named for. BTW Judi Dench told Letterman it's great that her 11-year-old grandson's friends are thrilled that they know M's, or Q's, or whoever's, grandson. Evidently the movies are skewed a bit younger than the books. Oh, could Leo G. Carroll have been the M in the movie I saw, or was he only on Man from U.N.C.L.E,? >Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's >Eliot Ness unwatchable?) Erm... Because Malone was supposed to be Irish? SignatureIan D >>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's >>Eliot Ness unwatchable?) > > Erm... Because Malone was supposed to be Irish? It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. Kevin Kostner makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin Hood?. > >>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention > >>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. And who plays Eliot Ness in it. >>>> Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>>> to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And who plays Eliot Ness in it. So PTDaniels meant Kevin Costner all along! That's a relief. SignatureJames > >> "Ian Dalziel" <iandalz...@lineone.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So PTDaniels meant Kevin Costner all along! That's a relief. Kevin Costner isn't a British actor who plays Americans as if he just stepped off the boat from Glasgow (if Glasgow has a port). >> >> "Ian Dalziel" <iandalz...@lineone.net> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Kevin Costner isn't a British actor who plays Americans as if he just >stepped off the boat from Glasgow (if Glasgow has a port). It has. As has Edinburgh... SignatureIan D In message <8607ad1c-b716-45bc-9891-1c4c5b9be179@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> writes >> >> It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Kevin Costner isn't a British actor who plays Americans as if he just >stepped off the boat from Glasgow (if Glasgow has a port). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_17qDtvTu4 SignatureIan >> >>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >> >>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >And who plays Eliot Ness in it. Indeed. Whooshlet? SignatureIan D >>>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Kevin Kostner makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin >Hood?. Good man. I find all of his films unwatchable except that one where he lives with the Indians, the story line being so strong that even his dull acting couldn't completely ruin it. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>>>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >he lives with the Indians, the story line being so strong that even >his dull acting couldn't completely ruin it. I thought he was rather good in "Field of Dreams" and "Tin Cup". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>>>>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I thought he was rather good in "Field of Dreams" and "Tin Cup". I've not seen those. Incidentally, has anyone watched "Homicide: Life on the Streets"? Based on David Simon's first factual book about Baltimore's police department, but with fictional characters, I find large parts of the script utterly banal. It drops from the sublime to the ridiculous a great deal of the time and I'm amazed that it gets 9/10 on IMDB. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > >>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention > >>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Kevin Kostner makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin > Hood?. Finally! Someone who understands the Costner problem! When I said that a while back, I was leapt upon. Is that the one where Capone bludgeons one of his buddies at the dinner table, and de Palma tries to recreate the Odessa Steps sequence from Potemkin? There's another problem. I believed Pauline Kael, and at least twice she suckered me into going to a de Palma movie -- Dressed to Kill, and Obsesson. Both awful. >>>Hmm. Does the classic tradition of British actors paying no attention >>>to dialect still prevail? (Why doesn't everyone find Sean Connery's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Kevin Kostner makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin >Hood?. On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story is often very enjoyable. On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story is often very enjoyable. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. Kevin Kostner >>makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin Hood?. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story > is often very enjoyable. Wouldn't that be the same hand? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The look on our faces isn't confusion. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It's disbelief. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | | Jon Stewart kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. Kevin Kostner >>> makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin Hood?. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Wouldn't that be the same hand? No, he only heard of it third hand. SignatureRay UK musika filted: >>>> It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. Kevin Kostner >>>> makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin Hood?. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >No, he only heard of it third hand. On every wristwatch I own, the third hand *is* the second hand....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > musika filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > On every wristwatch I own, the third hand *is* the second hand....r It's only for historical reasons that the longest hand is the third and not the first. However, even if it were the first it would still be the second hand. :-) pjk PaulJK filted: >> On every wristwatch I own, the third hand *is* the second hand....r > >It's only for historical reasons that the longest hand is the third >and not the first. However, even if it were the first it would still >be the second hand. :-) I've assembled a number of clocks from kits, and the second hand is almost always the last one to go on the spindle....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >PaulJK filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I've assembled a number of clocks from kits, and the second hand is almost >always the last one to go on the spindle....r I've just looked at the clocks and watches in my house. They all have the same arrangement. Nearest the dial is the alarm time hand (if any), then the hour hand, then the minute hand and then furthest from the dial the second hand (if any). If for any reason I needed to remove the hands the order would be second, minute, hour, alarm. I think I would always refer to the "hour hand" and "minute hand" in those terms but I would not rule out calling the "second hand" the "seconds hand". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>It's Kevin Costner who makes that movie unwatchable. Kevin Kostner >>>makes every movie unwatchable, was there ever a worse Robin Hood?. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Wouldn't that be the same hand? No, it'd be the other hand. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story is > often very enjoyable. > > On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story is > often very enjoyable. You can say that again. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> On the other hand, I find that the BBC version of the classic story is >> often very enjoyable. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You can say that again. Don't get me going, or I will, perhaps in spades. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Erm... Because Malone was supposed to be Irish? Oh. Nu, would any Irishman have thought he was supposed to be Irish? >> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Nu, would any Irishman have thought he was supposed to be Irish? Nope. An Edinburgh accent is a *bit* closer to an Irish accent than to a NY one, though. SignatureIan D >>> On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 06:11:11 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Nope. An Edinburgh accent is a *bit* closer to an Irish accent than to >a NY one, though. Oh, Spittoons! Chicago. SignatureIan D > <iandalz...@lineone.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Oh, Spittoons! Chicago. Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy makes good" story. > Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy makes > good" story. According to Wikipedia, he was born in Chicago, attended the University of Chicago, and apparently never worked significantly outside of the region until 1934, after Capone was in prison. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy makes >> good" story. > >According to Wikipedia, he was born in Chicago, attended the >University of Chicago, and apparently never worked significantly >outside of the region until 1934, after Capone was in prison. What's a significantly in miles? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy >>> makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What's a significantly in miles? The jobs they list for him talk about "the Chicago territory" as an investigator for the Retail Credit Company of Atlanta and "Chicago" for the Bureau of Prohibition. So based in Chicago, and I'd guess maybe 20-50 miles outside. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up |with all the idiots in the world. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy >>>> makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >for the Bureau of Prohibition. So based in Chicago, and I'd guess >maybe 20-50 miles outside. I was thinking that a "significant distance" of that day would be much smaller than it would be today, but on second thought, I don't think it would be by much. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy > >>> makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > for the Bureau of Prohibition. So based in Chicago, and I'd guess > maybe 20-50 miles outside. I took "significantly" to modify "worked"--he never did any significant work outside Chicago. Looks like I was wrong. -- Jerry Friedman >> >>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local boy >> >>> makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I took "significantly" to modify "worked"--he never did any >significant work outside Chicago. Looks like I was wrong. Since it wasn't a wonderful sentence, I can understand the confusion. Who wrote it, anyway? Wiki, I think. Not one of Wiki's best, Evan. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> >>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local >>> >>> boy makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Since it wasn't a wonderful sentence, I can understand the confusion. > Who wrote it, anyway? Wiki, I think. Not one of Wiki's best, Evan. No, it was mine. I figured that if I wrote that all of his jobs were in Chicago, Peter was going to argue that clearly if his office was responsible for a "region" he would have worked in other nearby towns as well. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There's been so much ado already 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that any further ado would be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |excessive. | Lori Karkosky kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >>> >>> Was Ness from Chicago? His job doesn't seem like the "local > >>> >>> boy makes good" story. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > responsible for a "region" he would have worked in other nearby towns > as well. Do you think "other nearby towns" do not partake of the Chicago accent? Don't ascribe your talmudic nitpickery to me. (Though Milwaukee definitely doesn't. They have Canadian Raising -- and bubblers.) replying to Evan Kirshenbaum > Do you think "other nearby towns" do not partake of the Chicago > accent? > > Don't ascribe your talmudic nitpickery to me. Racist! > replying to Evan Kirshenbaum > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Racist! The Ramblin'-Bob-appointed Dictator-for-Life banned Ramblin' Bob from posting in sci.lang quite a while ago. Why does Ramblin' Bob continue to defile sci.lang? > > replying to Evan Kirshenbaum > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > posting in sci.lang quite a while ago. Why does Ramblin' Bob continue > to defile sci.lang? Defile? You're the one making the anti-semitic remark! >> No, it was mine. I figured that if I wrote that all of his jobs were >> in Chicago, Peter was going to argue that clearly if his office was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Don't ascribe your talmudic nitpickery to me. That's either anti-Semitic or an insensitive blunder. I guess whether you're willing to apologize will tell us which. SignatureAnd remember, while you're out there risking your life and limb through shot and shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker you are. [Rufus T. Firefly] >> > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents >> > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >I meant Jefferson and Franklin, with Adams as the odd one out. Watch yo' mouth, boy! Mr Adams and I are related. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > > > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > > > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > To my British ears, Jefferson and Adams have similar accents (a bit > like Britain's West Country), and Adams is the odd one out. Listen to What did you mean to say there? > Steve Merchant (British actor\writer with a mild West Country accent) > it sounds pretty similar to Jefferson. The way Jefferson say 'p'raaps' > sounds a little West Country English, to me. > > The blond man:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inNv1AJTuKY&feature=related He sounds undifferentiated Brit to me -- except for the intermittent postvocalic r. I'm not at home, so I can't look in Fischer to see where he puts the origin of those three of the four "folkways" he identifies as the source of the US regional cultures, but he's cited throughout vol. 6 of the CHEL, indicating that his approach is widely accepted by linguists (he's a historian). Probably readily googlable. The interviewer is that hilarious fellow from *Forgetting Sarah Marshall* -- he just did an interview on NPR where we learned that he's a huge star in Britain and unknown here. > The interviewer is that hilarious fellow from *Forgetting Sarah > Marshall* -- he just did an interview on NPR where we learned that > he's a huge star in Britain and unknown here. Peter is probably talking about Russell Brand, if anyone cares. DC -- > > Steve Merchant (British actor\writer with a mild West Country accent) > > it sounds pretty similar to Jefferson. The way Jefferson say 'p'raaps' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He sounds undifferentiated Brit to me -- except for the intermittent > postvocalic r. I don't know what "undifferentiated Brit" is, but suspect this is analogous to the way I'd regard most US accents as sounding "the same". > The interviewer is that hilarious fellow from *Forgetting Sarah > Marshall* -- he just did an interview on NPR where we learned that > he's a huge star in Britain and unknown here. Russell Brand is famous (or notorious), but I wouldn't call him a huge star. Listening to the first clip, I'd agree with Iain's comment that Adams sounds American, Franklin and Jefferson sound West Country. >> > Steve Merchant (British actor\writer with a mild West Country accent) >> > it sounds pretty similar to Jefferson. The way Jefferson say 'p'raaps' [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Listening to the first clip, I'd agree with Iain's comment that Adams >sounds American, Franklin and Jefferson sound West Country. I didn't recognize the name or the face (looked him up), but now that I see that he was in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" I do remember the part he played in that. Not a strong memory, though, because I thought the movie was rather uninteresting. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 07:51:42 -0800 (PST), "Andrew B." > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > part he played in that. Not a strong memory, though, because I > thought the movie was rather uninteresting. Russel Brand is a newly famous stand-up comedien and presenter, genuinely witty but with a sad knack for needless vulgarity (not unlike Rick Mayall). --Iain > > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 07:51:42 -0800 (PST), "Andrew B." > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > genuinely witty but with a sad knack for needless vulgarity (not > unlike Rick Mayall). Come to think of it, here he talks about his own lack of fame in the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4mXZ2FSlUo --Iain On Jan 9, 6:25 am, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote: > What is the linguists' verdict on the attempted 18th century accents > in HBO's John Adams? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Abigail Adamshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg0h_kdwvu4 Just looking at the first minute or so of the first clip, I wonder why Adams and Jefferson don't use different dialects, while Franklin does. See David Hackett Fischer's *Albion's Seed* for the localized sources of what should be their three different speech patterns, and see e.g. the Cambridge History of the English Language for inferences (from many sources) on pronunciation in past centuries. (No cable, so haven't seen the series.) ======================================================================== Adams and Franklin should have similar accents as they both were from Boston, Franklin moved to Philly as an adult. TJ should have been the one who sounded different with his being from Virginia. > On Jan 9, 6:25 am, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > TJ should have been the one who sounded different with his being from > Virginia. Maybe one should also consider the number of generations each man's family has been in America. Franklin looks old. Did he have a British dad? --Iain On Jan 9, 11:00 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote: > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in > messagenews:28f0bee6-c3ab-47f2-8051-ea631a32af8e@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > TJ should have been the one who sounded different with his being from > Virginia. Maybe one should also consider the number of generations each man's family has been in America. Franklin looks old. Did he have a British dad? --Iain ============================================================================ Franklin was Born in Boston and his parents are both buried in the Old Granary Burial Ground in Boston. His father was born in Northamptonshire, England, his mother from Nantucket Ma. > > On Jan 9, 6:25 am, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Adams and Franklin should have similar accents as they both were from > > Boston, Franklin moved to Philly as an adult. At 17, anyway. But thanks, Ray--I'd forgotten that Franklin grew up in Boston, so I would have made the same mistake Peter did. Of course, after so many years in Philadelphia, his accent might have changed a bit. > > TJ should have been the one who sounded different with his being from > > Virginia. No doubt. > Maybe one should also consider the number of generations each man's > family has been in America. > > Franklin looks old. Did he have a British dad? He was 70 when the Declaration of Independence was written. (Which I can only picture in terms of this favorite of mine from childhood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYhjBcYnzvU Some of those who are watching a serious recreation of history may enjoy that--though the rhyming is better than the acting.) Ray mentioned Franklin's father's being English. At least some of Adams's ancestors had immigrated to Massachusetts a century before he was born, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams -- Jerry Friedman > > > On Jan 9, 6:25 am, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYhjBcYnzvU One of the best movies of a Broadway musical ever made. "Opened up" to just the right degree. I did see the original production (which ran 1969-72), though probably not the original cast. The movie involved many of the original cast. > Some of those who are watching a serious recreation of history may > enjoy that--though the rhyming is better than the acting.) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams |
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