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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010The verb 'live'
In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? Although the rules and terms can fluctuate, the low down payment and below market interest features of VA loans come with the condition that the borrower live in the property. Some verbs are used this way, such as 'I suggest that he go', but not 'goes'. I like to know in what circumstance that such usages happens. Thanks for teaching. fulio pen a non-native speaker of English > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > > Although the rules and terms can fluctuate, the low down payment and > below market interest features of VA loans come with the condition > that the borrower live in the property. "The condition that" almost always requires that the following clause be in the subjunctive mood.  SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:47:14 +1100 from Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep>: > > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "The condition that" almost always requires that the following clause be > in the subjunctive mood. True in the US; but don't BrE speakers tend to use the indicative? Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... Stan Brown wrote, in <MPG.25b3a349a5d7899e98be58@news.individual.net> on Sun, 10 Jan 2010 08:42:26 -0500: > Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:47:14 +1100 from Peter Moylan > <gro.nalyomp@retep>: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I > had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". "In" sounds right to me when the property is a house with a limited amount of ground around it. If the property is a large estate it would be "on". SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE Stan Brown: > > Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I > > had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". Nick Spalding: > "In" sounds right to me when the property is a house with a limited > amount of ground around it. If the property is a large estate it would > be "on". I disagree. I see the two common cases as (1) the property consists of a plot of land with a house# and perhaps other buildings on it, or (2) the property is a condo, i.e. just part of a building. Then the preposition is "on" for case 1 and "in" for case 2. # - Or half of a semi (semi-detached house), or one dwelling of a townhouse (row house). SignatureMark Brader | Those who mourn for "USENET like it was" should Toronto | remember the original design estimates of maximum msb@vex.net | traffic volume: 2 articles/day. --Steven Bellovin My text in this article is in the public domain. >Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:47:14 +1100 from Peter Moylan ><gro.nalyomp@retep>: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I >had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". In home-buying-and-renting-BrE "property" tends to mean a building or part of one. The rightmove.co.uk website lists "properties" to buy or rent. This refers to rentals: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent.html Rightmove has over 300,000 properties to rent throughout the UK. We list the widest range of property types and styles, from studio apartments to detached family homes, allowing you to see more. I'd expect people to live "in" any of those properties regardless of type. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:47:14 +1100 from Peter Moylan > <gro.nalyomp@retep>: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > True in the US; but don't BrE speakers tend to use the indicative? Tend, yes, but I for one would always use the subjunctive in a sentence like this. > Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I > had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". Not odd, no. Probably I'd say "on", but it depends a bit on what "the property" is: if it's a piece of land, then "on", if it's a building, then "in". We also usually live in streets, whereas you live on streets. Signatureathel > Stan Brown said: >> Also, does "live *in* the property" sound odd to anyone else? If I >> had to pick a preposition, I'd pick "on". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > then "in". We also usually live in streets, whereas you live on > streets. I'd think that one lives in a house that's on the property. The property (land) might not extend much beyond the house, but it is still there. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Stan Brown said: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > property (land) might not extend much beyond the house, but it is > still there. My broad sense is that in Aus usage, it's the land that's the property, and in Brit it's usually the house. SignatureMike. In our last episode, <cda5b706-2ea6-4090-942d-b7bb50f3db6c@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented Fulio Pen broadcast on alt.usage.english: > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > Although the rules and terms can fluctuate, the low down payment and > below market interest features of VA loans come with the condition > that the borrower live in the property. This is the subjunctive. In some constructions the subjunctive is moribund, and in others, such as this one, native speakers learn it without knowing what it is. > Some verbs are used this way, such as 'I suggest that he go', but not > 'goes'. I like to know in what circumstance that such usages happens. > Thanks for teaching. > fulio pen > a non-native speaker of English SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 38 926.9 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > > Although the rules and terms can fluctuate, the low down payment and > below market interest features of VA loans come with the condition > that the borrower live in the property. No, it's correct. You should use this subjunctive form or the equivalent: "... come with the condition that the borrower _should _live in the property." which is more frequent in the BrE. Marius Hancu In message <016592d3-8a48-4dca-98d9-006359e49e4b@37g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, Marius Hancu <marius.hancu@gmail.com> writes >> In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >which is more frequent in the BrE. There are times when I instinctively use subjunctives (correctly) - but this isn't one of them. I'm sure that I would have wrongly used "lives". SignatureIan >In message ><016592d3-8a48-4dca-98d9-006359e49e4b@37g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >There are times when I instinctively use subjunctives (correctly) - but >this isn't one of them. I'm sure that I would have wrongly used "lives". That is an "alternative" subjunctive form. That's my excuse anyway. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>In message >><016592d3-8a48-4dca-98d9-006359e49e4b@37g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >That is an "alternative" subjunctive form. That's my excuse anyway. As good as any, I suppose! However, while I admit to being occasionally 'lax' in the strict use of the subjunctive, I cringe at the BBC's almost complete (and deliberate?) avoidance of it - especially in sentences where its necessity is glaringly obvious. SignatureIan > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fulio pen > a non-native speaker of English There are a number of cases governed by particular words in which one should not use an inflected form of verb but rather the infinitive form, which is all that's left in English of the present subjunctive. Thus, "important" followed a "that" complement clause can take either, though with different senses: It's important that he IS here today. [= "He is here today;that's important"] It's important that he BE here today. [= "He'd better be here today; it's important"] In the case of the sentence provided, what's important is not the verb "live", or any verb, but rather the noun "condition", which can take a complement clause (in this case, "that the borrower live/lives in the property" that describes the nature of the condition. Since it's hypothetical, "condition" can govern what's often called a 'subjunctive' complement, which is to say that one uses an infinitive form instead of an inflected form. That's all. Really. -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler "Curiosity is one of the permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous mind." -- Samuel Johnson > In the following sentence, is the verb 'live' supposed to be 'lives'? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Some verbs are used this way, such as 'I suggest that he go', but not > 'goes'. I like to know in what circumstance that such usages happens. Imperative tense - it's a command. [...] > Imperative tense - it's a command. The imperative is not a tense: it is a mood. And the verb is not in the imperative mood but in the subjunctive mood. Verbs can manifest voice, mood, tense, and aspect. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > [...] > > > Imperative tense - it's a command. > > The imperative is not a tense: it is a mood. And the verb is not in the > imperative mood but in the subjunctive mood. go (vs goes) wasn't subjunctive, because it wasn't expressing a conditional. On Jan 10, 5:54 am, "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote: > > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > go (vs goes) wasn't subjunctive, because it wasn't expressing a > conditional. I want to thank all of you for your discussions. You teach me a lot. fulio pen a non-native speaker of English > On Jan 10, 5:54 am, "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > fulio pen > a non-native speaker of English Be careful with what D. Stussy says, however. It's often misleading, and is so in this case. Signatureathel > > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > go (vs goes) wasn't subjunctive, because it wasn't expressing a > conditional. It depends on what you intend to convey, and the subjunctive (which, however vestigial, is a mood, not a tense) is not used only to express a conditional. John Lawler's post to this thread, q.v., is an excellent concise explanation. If I may add a bit of detail, the subjunctive, in addidition to its use to suggest the conditional (or the contrary to fact), e.g., "If I were king ...," also follows verbs of suggestion, recommendation, demand, etc. The subjunctive and indicative present forms are identical except in the third person singular, where the subjunctive drops the "s", or in the unique case of "be", the simple infinitive is used throughout. Hence "I requested that you he be allowed to enter." "I recommend that he show more care in the future." "I demand that she appear at once." I'm not sure D. Stussy has said anything that disagrees with the foregoing. If he has, I suggest that he learn from what is posted here. SignatureBob Lieblich I recommend that I stop now [...] > It depends on what you intend to convey, and the subjunctive (which, > however vestigial, is a mood, not a tense) is not used only to express a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > allowed to enter." "I recommend that he show more care in the future." > "I demand that she appear at once." The subjunctive is classically divided into two sorts: the optative subjunctive, "which represents the utterance as something desired or planned"; and the potential subjunctive, "which represents the statement, not as an actual fact, but only as a conception of the mind". In mechanical presentation, the two forms are identical: the distinction is chiefly for purposes of analysis and discussion. In more detail: Optative uses include: volition (intention, will--"let us hurry", "suffice it to say"); wish ("God bless you" or "Might I see her but once more!"); logical reasoning (as in "Let ABC be a scalene triangle"); action conceded ("However hard it may rain, we must attend"); and the broad class called action desired ("See that my affairs be managed correctly"). Potential uses include pretty much all expressions not representing fact but rather possibility, unreality, or disagreement with facts; it is also used to state what is believed to be fact in a cautious or modest way ("it were wise to be silent" or "I had best see to it"). SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ Mon, 11 Jan 2010 03:20:15 +0000 (UTC) from Eric Walker <email@owlcroft.com>: > The subjunctive is classically divided into two sorts: the optative > subjunctive, "which represents the utterance as something desired or > planned"; and the potential subjunctive, "which represents the statement, > not as an actual fact, but only as a conception of the mind". So called, I imagine because in Attic Greek they were two different moods of the verb, with two different forms. But if I can correctly remember classes from several decades ago, statements of potential -- e.g., "Cyrus might come" -- were in the optative and not the subjunctive. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... |
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