Heathrow robbery trial breaks with 400-year tradition of trial by jury
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Murray Arnow - 11 Jan 2010 17:38 GMT This item in the Guardian caught my eye:
http://www.guardian.co. uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey
or
http://snipurl.com/u1pg5
In the US trial by jury isn't always the case. There are many instances when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 Jan 2010 18:10 GMT >This item in the Guardian caught my eye: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article >accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial? No. In the UK the majority of criminal cases are tried in non-jury courts (about 95% of criminal trials in England and Wales). More serious cases are tried in courts with juries.
The Guardian is talking about a serious case that would normally be heard before a jury. There are recent changes in the law to proceed without a jury under special circumstances.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 21:32 GMT >>This item in the Guardian caught my eye: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >heard before a jury. There are recent changes in the law to proceed >without a jury under special circumstances. A few moments ago I saw a brief interview on the BBC News Channel. The presenter was talking to an expert about this case. She asked him about this "first case to be heard without a jury" for hundreds of years. He carefully corrected her, saying it was the first case of a trial for a *serious* offence.
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Don Phillipson - 11 Jan 2010 23:02 GMT > http://www.guardian.co. > uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey > > In the US trial by jury isn't always the case. There are many instances > when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article > accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial? I think British law changed about 20 years ago, to permit judges to hear criminal charges without a jury in some cases (e.g. terrorism or where intimidation of witnesses seemed likely.) The old tradition (ascribed to Magna Carta) was that every defendant had the right to be "tried by his peers" viz. a jury. In practice, this meant that, for the lower tier of offences, defendants could elect whether to be tried by a magistrate (junior judge) immediately or to be tried by a (senior) judge and jury (at some later date.)
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Don Phillipson - 12 Jan 2010 13:09 GMT > > http://www.guardian.co. > > uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > magistrate (junior judge) immediately or to be tried by a > (senior) judge and jury (at some later date.) Corrections are provided at http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2430497 including: 1. The guarantee of trial by jury of peers dates to 1641 (parliamentary abolition of the "Star Chamber.") 2. "In the past 400 years, trials without juries have taken place only in Northern Ireland, where the Diplock courts were set up to provide justice in the intimidating atmosphere of the Troubles." 3. The Twomey criminal trial by judge alone "is the first of its kind under provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003." The defendant has already been tried three times for this crime, the last trial suspended for suspicion of jury tampering.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 14:31 GMT >> > http://www.guardian.co. >> > uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >1. The guarantee of trial by jury of peers dates to 1641 >(parliamentary abolition of the "Star Chamber.") That statement completely ignores the existence of the magistrates court which deal with lesser criminal offences[1]. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/aboutus/history/magistrates.htm
The part played by magistrates in the judicial system of England and Wales can be traced to the year 1195. Richard I in that year commissioned certain knights to preserve the peace in unruly areas. They were responsible to the King for ensuring that the law was upheld. They preserved the "King's Peace", and were known as Keepers of the Peace. The title Justices of the Peace derives from 1361, in the reign of Edward III. An Act of 1327 had referred to "good and lawful men" to be appointed in every county in the land to "guard the Peace". Justices of the Peace still retain (and occasionally use) the power conferred or re-conferred on them in 1361 to bind over unruly persons "to be of good behaviour". The bind over is not a punishment, but a preventive measure, intended to ensure that people thought likely to offend will not do so. For the following 600 years, and continuing today, Justices of the Peace have undertaken the greater part of the judicial work carried out in England and Wales on behalf of the Sovereign.
>2. "In the past 400 years, trials without juries have taken >place only in Northern Ireland, where the Diplock courts >were set up to provide justice in the intimidating atmosphere >of the Troubles." See [1] regarding the "Diplock" courts.
>3. The Twomey criminal trial by judge alone "is the first of its >kind under provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003." The >defendant has already been tried three times for this crime, >the last trial suspended for suspicion of jury tampering. [1] An official report: http://www.criminal-courts-review.org.uk/ccr-ap4.htm
1. In 1999, the courts of England and Wales dealt with nearly two million criminal cases. All of these cases had at least one hearing in a magistrates’ court. A minority were subsequently committed, transferred or sent to the Crown Court. The table below shows the level of court at which cases were completed: Crown Court [with a jury] 97,000 5% Magistrates’ Court [no jury] 1,789,000 95%
2. All criminal offences currently fall into one of three categories. _Summary offences_, which include most motoring offences and other relatively minor matters such as drunkenness, common assault and prostitution, are triable only in a magistrates’ court. _‘Either-way’ offences_, including theft, drugs offences and some involving violence against the person, are triable either by a magistrates’ court or by the Crown Court. And _indictable only offences_, such as murder, rape and robbery, must be tried by the Crown Court.
In an _Either-way_ case the accused can ask for a jury trial, or the magistrates court can itself transfer the case to the Crown court. The magistrates can try a case, reach a verdict and then refer it to the Crown court for sentencing if they consider that the offence might warrant a larger sentence than they are empowered to impose.
[2] In a no-jury "Diplock" court the case is heard by a judge alone. The judge renders the verdict in writing with a detailed explanation of how and why the verdict has been reached. A person convicted has an automatic right of appeal. The Appeal Court is entitled to consider the judge's assessment of evidence and decision-making. The acceptability of evidence, the standard of proof and so on are the same as for the jury trial of other serious offences.
However, the production by the judge of a reasoned verdict and its potential critical scrutiny by a Appeal Court alongside the transcript of the evidence have much in common with non-criminal proceedings.
Very few cases tried by non-jury courts in Northern Ireland seem to have gone to appeal. The thoroughness of the consideration of the evidence imposed by the need for the judge to explain his/her verdict seems to maintain a high standard of decision-making.
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Robert Lieblich - 12 Jan 2010 02:57 GMT > This item in the Guardian caught my eye: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article > accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial? In the US, all felony cases are eligible for jury trial. In most American jurisdictions, the default is nevertheless trial without a jury, but the defendant is allowed to elect a jury trial within a specified deadline. In Virginia, the prosecution may demand a jury even if the defendant doesn't want one. I don't know whether any other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't unconstitutional.
Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury. And that's the way most criminal cases are actually disposed of in the US.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2010 06:58 GMT >> This item in the Guardian caught my eye: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't > unconstitutional. Why would it be unconstitutional? The sixth amendment says
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law
Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a jury.
The California Penal Code, when discussing murder, several times uses the phrase "unless a jury is waived by the defendant and the people", which implies that the prosecution has the right to demand one here as well.
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Don Phillipson - 12 Jan 2010 12:43 GMT > Why would it be unconstitutional? The sixth amendment says > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a > jury. The US 6th Amendment specifies the right to trial by jury. When we possess a right like this, we can usually waive it (viz. opt for trial by a judge alone) at our discretion.
But this is not a universal rule. In Ontario, Canada (I was told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes which of any two vehicle drivers has the right of way, and this right cannot be waived or given away. The case concerned driver A, attempting to turn across a line of traffic led by driver B, who stopped and politely waved driver A across, leading to a collision between A and driver C, who was going in the opposite direction.
Drivers B and C had the right of way because both were proceeding straight ahead in opposite directions, crossing no one. Driver A wanted to cross both lines of traffic at right angles, thus did not have the right of way. Driver B's "politeness" in halting to let A cross was a crime, in that he attempted to give away his own right of way, which the law prohibits.
Thus (in Ontario traffic law) the right (to go first) is also a duty (to go first). The event above (collision between A without right of way and C with right of way) demonstrates why voluntarily surrendering the right of way is not allowed.
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Pat Durkin - 12 Jan 2010 15:29 GMT >> Why would it be unconstitutional? The sixth amendment says >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > way) demonstrates why voluntarily surrendering > the right of way is not allowed. But there is just this: B assumed the power to give away C's right. That was a power he did not have. A and B were in a conspiracy to hinder or deprive C of his right.
Stan Brown - 14 Jan 2010 13:19 GMT Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925 @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
> In Ontario, Canada (I was > told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes > which of any two vehicle drivers has the right of way, Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely about "having the right of way", but legally NO ONE has it. The law specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed.
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Cheryl - 14 Jan 2010 13:41 GMT > Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925 > @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of > way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed. I don't know about Ontario, but in Newfoundland 'right of way' seems to exist.
http://www.assembly.nl.ca/Legislation/sr/statutes/h03.htm#115_
Under 'definitions'
" (iii) "right-of-way" means the privilege of the immediate use of the roadway;"
Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up than having it, eg:
"Driver to yield right-of-way
120. Where a driver is about to enter or cross a highway from a private road, alley, building, driveway or lane, he or she shall yield the right-of-way to traffic approaching on the highway and, having yielded, he or she may proceed with caution."
I've always understood this sort of thing to mean that the driver has the right-of-way except in the very numerous situations outlined in the act.
It is not always wise for a pedestrian to assume that the driver of a car knows when he or she has to, by law, give the pedestrian the right-of-way.
That last statement is not, of course, part of the Act, which specifies pretty clearly when the pedestrian gets right-of-way, but on experience and observation.
I would especially like to point out to all drivers is my city the bit where it says they aren't allowed to drive through a crosswalk with a pedestrian on it. I could have sworn they weren't allowed to drive through the crosswalk if the pedestrian was within so many meters of it, but that must be a bit that got taken out since I had to study the Act for my drivers' license.
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Stan Brown - 15 Jan 2010 11:56 GMT Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:11:43 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
> > [quoted text muted] > > Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up than > having it, eg: Sure, that's the same as what I'm saying. There is such a thing as right of way, but no one has it absolutely, as there are many situations under which a driver must yield.
We might think we have the right of way when the situation is such that everyone else in the vicinity is required to yield to us, but that changes the moment a police siren is heard, for instance.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2010 16:47 GMT > Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:11:43 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
>> Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up >> than having it, eg: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that everyone else in the vicinity is required to yield to us, but > that changes the moment a police siren is heard, for instance. At which point you are required to yield it to them and they have it.[1] I guess there's an argument that says that you don't actually have it until everybody yields it to you, but that doesn't seem to be a very useful way of looking at things when you can't be at fault for acting as though everybody had yielded right-of-way to you in a situation where everybody present is required to. (Not that this absolves you of the requirement to drive carefully enough to avoid an accident, if possible.)
[1] Unless there's a mail truck around.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2010 16:38 GMT > Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925 > @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right > of way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed. I'm not sure what distinction you're making. If someone is legally obligated to yield the right-of-way to you, then you have it over them. If everybody involved is supposed to yield it to you, then you have it period. You have a right to proceed in that if there's a collision, they are at fault for failing to yield, not you for proceeding.
What you don't, typically, have is an obligation to proceed. You do sometimes, though:
CA Veh. Code. 21451. (a) A driver facing a circular green signal shall proceed straight through or turn right or left or make a U-turn unless a sign prohibits a U-turn. Any driver, including one turning, shall yield the right-of-way to other traffic and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk.
(with the further proviso elsewhere that you aren't to do so if you don't have reason to believe that you will be able to clear the intersection before blocking cross traffic when they get the green.)
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Rich Ulrich - 15 Jan 2010 06:40 GMT >> Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925 >> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >collision, they are at fault for failing to yield, not you for >proceeding. My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania. (This was an offshoot of discussions of Pet Peeves. Long ago.) What I recall is that you can always be at fault or share fault, regardless of who is described as properly yielding, if you fail to exercise "due caution."
The law always says, "yield". It never goes out on that limb, offering exculpation, to say that someone *has* right-of-way.
People claimed that other states generally follow the same pattern. Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada.
>What you don't, typically, have is an obligation to proceed. You do >sometimes, though: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >don't have reason to believe that you will be able to clear the >intersection before blocking cross traffic when they get the green.)
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Mark Brader - 15 Jan 2010 09:24 GMT Rich Ulrich:
> Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada. Ontario.
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Nick - 20 Jan 2010 20:36 GMT > My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion > of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania. (This was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > People claimed that other states generally follow the same > pattern. Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada. As I understand it, nautical collision regulations work the same way. They tell you who should get out of the way, but that doesn't mean the other vessel has aright to behave exactly as it wishes.
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Mike Lyle - 20 Jan 2010 21:39 GMT >> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion >> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania. (This was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They tell you who should get out of the way, but that doesn't mean the > other vessel has aright to behave exactly as it wishes. One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly that steam gives way to sail...
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 21:51 GMT >>> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion >>> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania. (This was [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly >that steam gives way to sail... Indeed. A late friend of mine used to sail his yacht in the waters between Northern Ireland and Scotland. This meant that his boat and a MacBrayne's steamer would cross paths from time to time. He explained that the rule was "Steam gives way to Sail except that MacBrayne's Steamers give way only to God" and that God being full of wisdom has never put this rule to the test.
http://www.calmac.co.uk/
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Nick - 23 Jan 2010 10:44 GMT >>> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion >>> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania. (This was [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly > that steam gives way to sail... Certainly when I'm chugging my 20 ton narrow boat through the Trent at Nottingham, the little sailing dinghies tacking across are far more manoeuvrable than I am.
I keep a straight course, a moderate speed and prepare for emergency avoidance but try to be as predictable as possible. It's always worked.
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Percival P. Cassidy - 14 Jan 2010 17:02 GMT >> In Ontario, Canada (I was >> told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes >> which of any two vehicle drivers has the right of way,
> Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely > about "having the right of way", but legally NO ONE has it. The law > specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of > way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed. "Here lies the body of Jonathan Gray, who died defending his right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he's been wrong."
Perce
Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:39 GMT Don Phillipson:
> In Ontario, Canada (I was > told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > was a crime, in that he attempted to give away his > own right of way, which the law prohibits. This is doubly wrong. First, the Highway Traffic Act does not contain any such provision as Don describes. Second, as it is a provincial law, an offense against is it not a crime.
The act is available at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm
and the sections applying to right of way at intersections are 136 for stop signs, 138 for yield signs, 144 for traffic lights, and 135 when there are none of these.
You will note that 135, 136, and 138 all refer to traffic *yielding* the right of way, but impose no requirement on traffic that has the right of way. Similarly, various subsections refer to when a driver *may* proceed, but it's always "may".
I can't say comment fully on the situation that Don describes since I don't know what stop or yield signs were present. Driver B may have misled driver A into proceeding dangerously; that may be an offense, although I don't see one like that in the act, but in any case it's not a right-of-way offense. And he did not commit an offense by not proceeding himself.
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Robert Lieblich - 13 Jan 2010 02:49 GMT [ ... ]
In Virginia, the prosecution may demand a jury
> > even if the defendant doesn't want one. I don't know whether any > > other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a > jury. True. I'm talking about something lurking in the interstices of the Fourteenth Amendment -- due process, equal protection, and all that. One assumes that if the prosecution wants a jury in a criminal case and the defendant doesn't, it's because the defendant thinks he'll have a better chance to persuade the judge than the jury of his innocence (or, more correctly, his not-guilty-ness). But if he's denied the choice and the prosecution gets to try the case before a jury that the defendant doesn't want, that could be considered an unfair advantage for the prosecution, hence not due process.
I don't have any knowledge of how this has played out in the courts. Since the practie continues, it's nearly certain that any constitutional attacks on it (if there have been any) have been rebuffed. But my ignorance allows me to speculate. Taking advantage of my own lack of information, as it were.
I'm a bit rushed tonight, so I'm not going to do the research now. Maybe I'll come back later with a report.
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> > The California Penal Code, when discussing murder, several times uses [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 11:59 GMT >Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury. I have served on a jury only once (it was in Northern Ireland, UK). The trial was expected to last four or five days. The accused changed her plea from not guilty to guilty at the beginning of the second day's proceedings. Because the trial had started it was necessary for the jury to return a verdict (guilty obviously). The foreman of the jury was handed the necessary papers and was instructed step-by-step by the judge what to write where. I remember this because I was sitting next to the foreman who was almost immobilised with anxiety (apart form shaking like a leaf) and I had to help him find his way through the papers.
Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled similarly in (some) courts in America?
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Garrett Wollman - 12 Jan 2010 17:20 GMT >Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled similarly in >(some) courts in America? I don't think so. My experience, at least, is that the jury is informed by the judge of what has transpired and is then dismissed. In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were still some counts remaining to be decided.
There are some circumstances in which, in some systems, the judge can instruct the jury to make a particular finding. There are occasional controversies when the jury does not do so.
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Default User - 12 Jan 2010 21:54 GMT > > Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled > > similarly in (some) courts in America? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were > still some counts remaining to be decided. I am a little surprised about the latter. I would have thought that the guilty plea on one count would be prejudicial to deliberation on the others.
Brian
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Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:02 GMT Garrett Wollman:
>> I don't think so. My experience, at least, is that the jury is >> informed by the judge of what has transpired and is then dismissed. >> In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were >> still some counts remaining to be decided. "Brian":
> I am a little surprised about the latter. I would have thought that the > guilty plea on one count would be prejudicial to deliberation on the > others. Consider: "Okay, I admit it, the jewelry I pawned did come from the woman. But I didn't kill her -- I just robbed her dead body." If that's the guy's defense to a murder charge, you'll need to be told about the jewelry anyway, so the fact that he initially denied stealing it doesn't matter.
ObAUE: "robbed". To many people that word implies a theft specifically committed by violence or the threat of violence. But I can't think of another one that would fit as well in the quoted passage.
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Nick - 20 Jan 2010 20:56 GMT > Garrett Wollman: >>> I don't think so. My experience, at least, is that the jury is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > committed by violence or the threat of violence. But I can't think of > another one that would fit as well in the quoted passage. These days in colloquial BrE, "rob" just means to steal. To the extent that your villain would be more likely to say ".... I didn't kill her -- I just robbed it from her dead body".
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James Hogg - 20 Jan 2010 21:11 GMT >> Garrett Wollman: >>>> I don't think so. My experience, at least, is that the jury is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > extent that your villain would be more likely to say ".... I didn't > kill her -- I just robbed it from her dead body". Which brings us neatly back to the original sense of "robe": it meant clothes taken as spoil, booty robbed from the slain.
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Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2010 18:05 GMT [...]
> Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury. > And that's the way most criminal cases are actually disposed of in the > US. Here, too. Get my daughter started sometime on the joys of making a complicated journey in wet weather to a smelly old court with revolting loos, only to be told that the equally repellent client has decided to plead.
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Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:12 GMT Bob Lieblich:
> In the US, all felony cases are eligible for jury trial. In most > American jurisdictions, the default is nevertheless trial without a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't > unconstitutional. It was noted elsewhere in the thread that in the US constitution, the 6th Amendment establishes, or rather codifies, a right to jury trials. But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury".
So what seems, on the face of it, unconstitutional, is for "the default" to be trial without a jury. Has there been a judicial interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime" here actually means a felony, or what?
In Canada, the corresponding constitutional guarantee is in Section 11 of the Constitution Act, 1982: "Any person charged with an offence has the right ... (f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment". (I don't know if there was a law on this before 1982.) But this seems similar to the British "serious cases" rule that started this thread.
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Stan Brown - 15 Jan 2010 12:01 GMT Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:12:42 -0600 from Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>:
> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The > Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime" here actually means a felony, > or what? Yes, that's exactly right. The Supreme Court took the most unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean "some". Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the Land/.
I believe the current rule is that you are entitled to a jury trial if the potential penalty is more than a year in prison (or, maybe, more than six months; it's a while since I checked). It doesn't matter whether the crime is called felony or misdemeanor; what matters is the potential penalty. Some individual states probably have a broader guarantee of trial by jury for state crimes.
It's easy to see the motivation for the reinterpretation: if you could have a jury trial over every speeding ticket,the courts would work even less well than they do now. But it's not easy to see a *legal* justification.
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Mark Brader - 16 Jan 2010 23:09 GMT Mark Brader:
>> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The >> Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by >> Jury".
>> ...Has there been a judicial interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime" >> here actually means a felony, or what? Stan Brown:
> Yes, that's exactly right. The Supreme Court took the most > unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean > "some". Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the > Land/. What case, what year?
> It's easy to see the motivation for the reinterpretation: if you > could have a jury trial over every speeding ticket,the courts would > work even less well than they do now. But it's not easy to see a > *legal* justification. Well, as I've noted, in Ontario traffic violations such as speeding tickets are not crimes -- they can't be, since they come under provincial law. But the US system is different. I believe some states also have the concept of "quasi-criminal offenses", but that something like a minor theft or property damage would normally be considered a crime.
 Signature Mark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net." msb@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Garrett Wollman - 17 Jan 2010 01:01 GMT >Well, as I've noted, in Ontario traffic violations such as speeding >tickets are not crimes -- they can't be, since they come under >provincial law. But the US system is different. I believe some >states also have the concept of "quasi-criminal offenses", but >that something like a minor theft or property damage would normally >be considered a crime. In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies, misdemeanors, and traffic infractions. Misdemeanors and traffic infractions can be tried by the town or village Justice of the Peace; felonies must be tried by a jury unless the accused waives that right. I'm not sure whether they have any equivalent of the British "either way" offenses, as the only crime I've ever been accused of (in New York or anywhere else) was a traffic infraction. (I showed up at court, and the cop did not, so the charge was dismissed for want of prosecution.)
In Massachusetts, there are two categories of crimes: felonies and misdemeanors. Traffic violations are administrative infractions, like code violations and parking tickets, and are not considered criminal. They are heard by a non-judge lawyer called a "clerk-magistrate" at the district court having jurisdiction, under rules of evidence which are extremely favorable to the police. (For example, the police officer need not appear in person, and everything written on the ticket is taken as true.) The outcome can be appealed to a /de novo/ trial before a district court judge, in which the normal rules of evidence apply, the accused is entitled to compulsory service, and so on. (The state tries to make this as difficult and expensive a proposition as possible, because the cops get paid more to work on traffic details than they do to spend a day in court, and they often don't show at the hearing.)
The situation in Vermont is similar to that in Massachusetts but without the clerk-magistrate hearing. Police don't tend to do traffic details in Vermont (the police unions are weaker there, so construction companies can hire civilian flaggers) so they are more likely to show at the hearing. My recollection is that it rarely gets that far. Both Vermont and Massachusetts have Justices of the Peace, but all they normally do, so far as I can tell, is officiate at weddings.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Stan Brown - 17 Jan 2010 13:44 GMT Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org>:
> In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies, > misdemeanors, and traffic infractions. ITYM "violations".
 Signature Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
Garrett Wollman - 17 Jan 2010 17:39 GMT >Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman ><wollman@bimajority.org>: >> In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies, >> misdemeanors, and traffic infractions. > >ITYM "violations". I don't. On the "information" (traffic ticket) form, the box is labeled "TI".
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Stan Brown - 19 Jan 2010 11:21 GMT Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:39:39 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org>:
> >Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman > ><wollman@bimajority.org>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't. On the "information" (traffic ticket) form, the box is > labeled "TI". You're right, according to http://law.onecle.com/new-york/vehicle-and-traffic/VAT0155_155.html
I was going by the /Cortland Standard/, which used to report traffic stops and referred to the charges as "X, a N-th degree misdemeanor" or "X, a violation". They *sounded* like they knew what they were talking about. :-)
 Signature Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
Stan Brown - 17 Jan 2010 14:10 GMT Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:09:23 -0600 from Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>:
> Mark Brader: > >> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What case, what year? Rembar doesn't cite the cases (unusual for him), but he gives the years.
'As early as 1904, [the Court]' hinted that jury trial should be reserved for crimes that might bring down six months or more in prison, and finally, in 1970, it drew the line through a point just one day later -- "more than six months", it said. The 1970 opinion took no note of the statement of 1904, but half a year in jail seemed to both benches the place to put the line.
"These rulings offer a remarkable insult to our language."
Wikipedia, in footnote 2 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Con stitution , cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970)
 Signature Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
Mark Brader - 18 Jan 2010 00:49 GMT Stan Brown:
> Rembar doesn't cite the cases (unusual for him), but he gives the > years. ... > Wikipedia ... cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970) Thanks.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | In the affairs of this world men are saved, msb@vex.net | not by faith, but by the want of it. --Franklin
Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 09:07 GMT Mark Brader:
>>>> ...Has there been a judicial interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime" >>>> here actually means a felony, or what? Stan Brown:
>>> Yes, that's exactly right. The Supreme Court took the most >>> unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean >>> "some". Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the >>> Land/. ...
> Wikipedia, in footnote 2 of > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Con > stitution , > cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970) That ruling can be found at <http://supreme.justia.com/us/399/66/case.html>, but the principle that "all crimes" is not interpreted as broadly as possible goes back further. A footnote points to Callan v. Wilson, 127 U. S. 540 (1888), or <http://supreme.justia.com/us/127/540/case.html>, or <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3607026596840288432>.
In the judgement, justice John Marshall Harlan (Sr.) wrote:
# The word "crime", in its more extended sense, comprehends every # violation of public law; in a limited sense, it embraces offences of # a serious or atrocious character. In our opinion, the provision is # to be interpreted in the light of the principles which, at common # law, determined whether the accused, in a given class of cases, # was entitled to be tried by a jury.
So he's saying that the Constitutional provision was not meant to overturn a principle of common law. I guess that makes some sense, if true.
 Signature Mark Brader "I am taking what you write in the spirit in Toronto which it is intended. That's the problem." msb@vex.net -- Tony Cooper
My text in this article is in the public domain.
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