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Heathrow robbery trial breaks with 400-year tradition of trial by jury

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Murray Arnow - 11 Jan 2010 17:38 GMT
This item in the Guardian caught my eye:

http://www.guardian.co.
uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey

or

http://snipurl.com/u1pg5

In the US trial by jury isn't always the case. There are many instances
when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article
accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 Jan 2010 18:10 GMT
>This item in the Guardian caught my eye:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article
>accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial?

No. In the UK the majority of criminal cases are tried in non-jury
courts (about 95% of criminal trials in England and Wales). More serious
cases are tried in courts with juries.

The Guardian is talking about a serious case that would normally be
heard before a jury. There are recent changes in the law to proceed
without a jury under special circumstances.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 21:32 GMT
>>This item in the Guardian caught my eye:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>heard before a jury. There are recent changes in the law to proceed
>without a jury under special circumstances.

A few moments ago I saw a brief interview on the BBC News Channel. The
presenter was talking to an expert about this case. She asked him about
this "first case to be heard without a jury" for hundreds of years. He
carefully corrected her, saying it was the first case of a trial for a
*serious* offence.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Don Phillipson - 11 Jan 2010 23:02 GMT
> http://www.guardian.co.
> uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey
>
> In the US trial by jury isn't always the case. There are many instances
> when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article
> accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial?

I think British law changed about 20 years ago, to permit
judges to hear criminal charges without a jury in some
cases (e.g. terrorism or where intimidation of witnesses
seemed likely.)   The old tradition (ascribed to Magna Carta)
was that every defendant had the right to be "tried by his peers"
viz. a jury.  In practice, this meant that, for the lower tier of
offences, defendants could elect whether to be tried by a
magistrate (junior judge) immediately or to be tried by a
(senior) judge and jury (at some later date.)

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Don Phillipson - 12 Jan 2010 13:09 GMT
> > http://www.guardian.co.
> > uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> magistrate (junior judge) immediately or to be tried by a
> (senior) judge and jury (at some later date.)

Corrections are provided at
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2430497
including:
1.  The guarantee of trial by jury of peers dates to 1641
(parliamentary abolition of the "Star Chamber.")
2.  "In the past 400 years, trials without juries have taken
place only in Northern Ireland, where the Diplock courts
were set up to provide justice in the intimidating atmosphere
of the Troubles."
3.  The Twomey criminal trial by judge alone "is the first of its
kind under provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003."  The
defendant has already been tried three times for this crime,
the last trial suspended for suspicion of jury tampering.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 14:31 GMT
>> > http://www.guardian.co.
>> > uk/uk/2010/jan/10/heathrow-robbery-trial-jury-twomey
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>1.  The guarantee of trial by jury of peers dates to 1641
>(parliamentary abolition of the "Star Chamber.")

That statement completely ignores the existence of the magistrates court
which deal with lesser criminal offences[1].
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/aboutus/history/magistrates.htm

   The part played by magistrates in the judicial system of England
   and Wales can be traced to the year 1195. Richard I in that year
   commissioned certain knights to preserve the peace in unruly areas.
   They were responsible to the King for ensuring that the law was
   upheld. They preserved the "King's Peace", and were known as Keepers
   of the Peace.
   
   The title Justices of the Peace derives from 1361, in the reign of
   Edward III. An Act of 1327 had referred to "good and lawful men" to
   be appointed in every county in the land to "guard the Peace".
   Justices of the Peace still retain (and occasionally use) the power
   conferred or re-conferred on them in 1361 to bind over unruly
   persons "to be of good behaviour". The bind over is not a
   punishment, but a preventive measure, intended to ensure that people
   thought likely to offend will not do so.
   
   For the following 600 years, and continuing today, Justices of the
   Peace have undertaken the greater part of the judicial work carried
   out in England and Wales on behalf of the Sovereign.

>2.  "In the past 400 years, trials without juries have taken
>place only in Northern Ireland, where the Diplock courts
>were set up to provide justice in the intimidating atmosphere
>of the Troubles."

See [1] regarding the "Diplock" courts.

>3.  The Twomey criminal trial by judge alone "is the first of its
>kind under provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003."  The
>defendant has already been tried three times for this crime,
>the last trial suspended for suspicion of jury tampering.

[1] An official report:
http://www.criminal-courts-review.org.uk/ccr-ap4.htm

   1. In 1999, the courts of England and Wales dealt with nearly two
   million criminal cases. All of these cases had at least one hearing
   in a magistrates’ court. A minority were subsequently committed,
   transferred or sent to the Crown Court. The table below shows the
   level of court at which cases were completed:
   
   Crown Court [with a jury]
   97,000
   5%
   
   Magistrates’ Court [no jury]
   1,789,000
   95%

   2. All criminal offences currently fall into one of three
   categories. _Summary offences_, which include most motoring offences
   and other relatively minor matters such as drunkenness, common
   assault and prostitution, are triable only in a magistrates’ court.
   _‘Either-way’ offences_, including theft, drugs offences and some
   involving violence against the person, are triable either by a
   magistrates’ court or by the Crown Court. And _indictable only
   offences_, such as murder, rape and robbery, must be tried by the
   Crown Court.

In an _Either-way_ case the accused can ask for a jury trial, or the
magistrates court can itself transfer the case to the Crown court. The
magistrates can try a case, reach a verdict and then refer it to the
Crown court for sentencing if they consider that the offence might
warrant a larger sentence than they are empowered to impose.

[2] In a no-jury "Diplock" court the case is heard by a judge alone. The
judge renders the verdict in writing with a detailed explanation of how
and why the verdict has been reached. A person convicted has an
automatic right of appeal. The Appeal Court is entitled to consider the
judge's assessment of evidence and decision-making. The acceptability of
evidence, the standard of proof and so on are the same as for the jury
trial of other serious offences.

However, the production by the judge of a reasoned verdict and its
potential critical scrutiny by a Appeal Court alongside the transcript
of the evidence have much in common with non-criminal proceedings.

Very few cases tried by non-jury courts in Northern Ireland seem to have
gone to appeal. The thoroughness of the consideration of the evidence
imposed by the need for the judge to explain his/her verdict seems to
maintain a high standard of decision-making.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robert Lieblich - 12 Jan 2010 02:57 GMT
> This item in the Guardian caught my eye:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> when cases are pleaded before a judge. Is this Guardian article
> accurate. Are all criminal trials jury trial?

In the US, all felony cases are eligible for jury trial.  In most
American jurisdictions, the default is nevertheless trial without a
jury, but the defendant is allowed to elect a jury trial within a
specified deadline.  In Virginia, the prosecution may demand a jury
even if the defendant doesn't want one.  I don't know whether any
other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't
unconstitutional.

Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury.
And that's the way most criminal cases are actually disposed of in the
US.

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Bob Lieblich
Who works the civil side

Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2010 06:58 GMT
>> This item in the Guardian caught my eye:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't
> unconstitutional.

Why would it be unconstitutional?  The sixth amendment says

   In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
   speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and
   district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
   shall have been previously ascertained by law

Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a
jury.

The California Penal Code, when discussing murder, several times uses
the phrase "unless a jury is waived by the defendant and the people",
which implies that the prosecution has the right to demand one here as
well.

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Don Phillipson - 12 Jan 2010 12:43 GMT
> Why would it be unconstitutional?  The sixth amendment says
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a
> jury.

The US 6th Amendment specifies the right to trial by jury.
When we possess a right like this, we can usually waive
it (viz. opt for trial by a judge alone) at our discretion.

But this is not a universal  rule.  In Ontario, Canada (I was
told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes
which of any two vehicle drivers has the  right of way, and
this right cannot be waived or given away.  The case
concerned driver A, attempting to turn across a line of
traffic led by driver B, who stopped and politely waved
driver A across, leading to a collision between A and
driver C, who was going in the opposite direction.

Drivers B and C had the right of way because both
were proceeding straight ahead in opposite directions,
crossing no one.  Driver A wanted to cross both lines
of traffic at right angles, thus did not have the right of
way.  Driver B's "politeness" in halting to let A cross
was a crime, in that he attempted to give away his
own right of way, which the law prohibits.

Thus (in Ontario traffic law) the right (to go first) is
also a duty (to go first).   The event above (collision
between A without right of way and C with right of
way) demonstrates why voluntarily surrendering
the right of way is not allowed.

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Pat Durkin - 12 Jan 2010 15:29 GMT
>> Why would it be unconstitutional?  The sixth amendment says
>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> way) demonstrates why voluntarily surrendering
> the right of way is not allowed.

But there is just this:  B assumed the power to give away C's right.
That was a power he did not have.   A and B were in a conspiracy to
hinder or deprive C of his right.
Stan Brown - 14 Jan 2010 13:19 GMT
Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925
@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
> In Ontario, Canada (I was
> told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes
> which of any two vehicle drivers has the  right of way,

Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely
about "having the right of way", but legally NO ONE has it. The law
specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of
way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed.

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Cheryl - 14 Jan 2010 13:41 GMT
> Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925
> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of
> way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed.

I don't know about Ontario, but in Newfoundland 'right of way' seems to
exist.

http://www.assembly.nl.ca/Legislation/sr/statutes/h03.htm#115_

Under 'definitions'

" (iii)  "right-of-way" means the privilege of the immediate use of the
roadway;"

Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up than
having it, eg:

"Driver to yield right-of-way

   120. Where a driver is about to enter or cross a highway from a
private road, alley, building, driveway or lane, he or she shall yield
the right-of-way to traffic approaching on the highway and, having
yielded, he or she may proceed with caution."

I've always understood this sort of thing to mean that the driver has
the right-of-way except in the very numerous situations outlined in the act.

It is not always wise for a pedestrian to assume that the driver of a
car knows when he or she has to, by law, give the pedestrian the
right-of-way.

That last statement is not, of course, part of the Act, which specifies
pretty clearly when the pedestrian gets right-of-way, but on experience
and observation.

I would especially like to point out to all drivers is my city the bit
where it says they aren't allowed to drive through a crosswalk with a
pedestrian on it. I could have sworn they weren't allowed to drive
through the crosswalk if the pedestrian was within so many meters of it,
but that must be a bit that got taken out since I had to study the Act
for my drivers' license.

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Cheryl

Stan Brown - 15 Jan 2010 11:56 GMT
Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:11:43 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
> > [quoted text muted]
> > Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up than
> having it, eg:

Sure, that's the same as what I'm saying. There is such a thing as
right of way, but no one has it absolutely, as there are many
situations under which a driver must yield.

We might think we have the right of way when the situation is such
that everyone else in the vicinity is required to yield to us, but
that changes the moment a police siren is heard, for instance.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2010 16:47 GMT
> Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:11:43 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:

>> Admittedly, the law seems to talk more about giving right of way up
>> than having it, eg:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that everyone else in the vicinity is required to yield to us, but
> that changes the moment a police siren is heard, for instance.

At which point you are required to yield it to them and they have
it.[1]  I guess there's an argument that says that you don't actually
have it until everybody yields it to you, but that doesn't seem to be
a very useful way of looking at things when you can't be at fault for
acting as though everybody had yielded right-of-way to you in a
situation where everybody present is required to.  (Not that this
absolves you of the requirement to drive carefully enough to avoid an
accident, if possible.)

[1] Unless there's a mail truck around.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2010 16:38 GMT
> Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925
> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right
> of way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed.

I'm not sure what distinction you're making.  If someone is legally
obligated to yield the right-of-way to you, then you have it over
them.  If everybody involved is supposed to yield it to you, then you
have it period.  You have a right to proceed in that if there's a
collision, they are at fault for failing to yield, not you for
proceeding.

What you don't, typically, have is an obligation to proceed.  You do
sometimes, though:

  CA Veh. Code. 21451.  (a) A driver facing a circular green signal
  shall proceed straight through or turn right or left or make a
  U-turn unless a sign prohibits a U-turn.  Any driver, including one
  turning, shall yield the right-of-way to other traffic and to
  pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent
  crosswalk.

(with the further proviso elsewhere that you aren't to do so if you
don't have reason to believe that you will be able to clear the
intersection before blocking cross traffic when they get the green.)

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Rich Ulrich - 15 Jan 2010 06:40 GMT
>> Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:43:20 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925
>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>collision, they are at fault for failing to yield, not you for
>proceeding.

My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion
of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania.  (This was
an offshoot of discussions of Pet Peeves.  Long ago.)   What
I recall is that you can always be at fault or share fault,
regardless of who is described as properly yielding, if you fail
to exercise "due caution."  

The law always says, "yield".  It never goes out on that limb,
offering exculpation, to say that someone *has*  right-of-way.  

People claimed that  other states generally follow the same
pattern.  Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada.

>What you don't, typically, have is an obligation to proceed.  You do
>sometimes, though:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>don't have reason to believe that you will be able to clear the
>intersection before blocking cross traffic when they get the green.)

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Mark Brader - 15 Jan 2010 09:24 GMT
Rich Ulrich:
> Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada.

Ontario.
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Nick - 20 Jan 2010 20:36 GMT
> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion
> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania.  (This was
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> People claimed that  other states generally follow the same
> pattern.  Mark Brader's post describes the same idea in Canada.

As I understand it, nautical collision regulations work the same way.
They tell you who should get out of the way, but that doesn't mean the
other vessel has aright to behave exactly as it wishes.
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Mike Lyle - 20 Jan 2010 21:39 GMT
>> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion
>> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania.  (This was
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> They tell you who should get out of the way, but that doesn't mean the
> other vessel has aright to behave exactly as it wishes.

One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly
that steam gives way to sail...

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 21:51 GMT
>>> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion
>>> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania.  (This was
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly
>that steam gives way to sail...

Indeed. A late friend of mine used to sail his yacht in the waters
between Northern Ireland and Scotland. This meant that his boat and a
MacBrayne's steamer would cross paths from time to time. He explained
that the rule was "Steam gives way to Sail except that MacBrayne's
Steamers give way only to God" and that God being full of wisdom has
never put this rule to the test.

http://www.calmac.co.uk/

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Nick - 23 Jan 2010 10:44 GMT
>>> My knowledge of this is from a local Bulletin Board discussion
>>> of Yielding, 20 years ago, mainly about Pennsylvania.  (This was
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> One should, for example, resist any temptation to believe too implicitly
> that steam gives way to sail...

Certainly when I'm chugging my 20 ton narrow boat through the Trent at
Nottingham, the little sailing dinghies tacking across are far more
manoeuvrable than I am.

I keep a straight course, a moderate speed and prepare for emergency
avoidance but try to be as predictable as possible.  It's always worked.
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Percival P. Cassidy - 14 Jan 2010 17:02 GMT
>> In Ontario, Canada (I was
>> told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes
>> which of any two vehicle drivers has the  right of way,

> Are you sure about that? At least in the U.S., people talk loosely
> about "having the right of way", but legally NO ONE has it. The law
> specifies a number of situations in which one must yield the right of
> way, but there is never an absolute right to proceed.

"Here lies the body of Jonathan Gray,
who died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along,
but he's just as dead as if he's been wrong."

Perce
Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:39 GMT
Don Phillipson:
> In Ontario, Canada (I was
> told a few years ago by a policeman) the law establishes
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> was a crime, in that he attempted to give away his
> own right of way, which the law prohibits.

This is doubly wrong.  First, the Highway Traffic Act does not
contain any such provision as Don describes.  Second, as it is
a provincial law, an offense against is it not a crime.

The act is available at
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm

and the sections applying to right of way at intersections are
136 for stop signs, 138 for yield signs, 144 for traffic lights,
and 135 when there are none of these.

You will note that 135, 136, and 138 all refer to traffic *yielding*
the right of way, but impose no requirement on traffic that has the
right of way.  Similarly, various subsections refer to when a driver
*may* proceed, but it's always "may".

I can't say comment fully on the situation that Don describes since
I don't know what stop or yield signs were present.  Driver B may have
misled driver A into proceeding dangerously; that may be an offense,
although I don't see one like that in the act, but in any case it's
not a right-of-way offense.  And he did not commit an offense by not
proceeding himself.
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Robert Lieblich - 13 Jan 2010 02:49 GMT
[ ... ]

In Virginia, the prosecution may demand a jury
> > even if the defendant doesn't want one.  I don't know whether any
> > other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Nothing in there about having the right to have a trial without a
> jury.

True.  I'm talking about something lurking in the interstices of the
Fourteenth Amendment -- due process, equal protection, and all that.
One assumes that if the prosecution wants a jury in a criminal case
and the defendant doesn't, it's because the defendant thinks he'll
have a better chance to persuade the judge than the jury of his
innocence (or, more correctly, his not-guilty-ness).  But if he's
denied the choice and the prosecution gets to try the case before a
jury that the defendant doesn't want, that could be considered an
unfair advantage for the prosecution, hence not due process.

I don't have any knowledge of how this has played out in the courts.
Since the practie continues, it's nearly certain that any
constitutional attacks on it (if there have been any) have been
rebuffed.  But my ignorance allows me to speculate.  Taking advantage
of my own lack of information, as it were.

I'm a bit rushed tonight, so I'm not going to do the research now.
Maybe I'll come back later with a report.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
If this be ignorance, make the most of it

>
> The California Penal Code, when discussing murder, several times uses
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>     http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Jan 2010 11:59 GMT
>Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury.

I have served on a jury only once (it was in Northern Ireland, UK). The
trial was expected to last four or five days. The accused changed her
plea from not guilty to guilty at the beginning of the second day's
proceedings. Because the trial had started it was necessary for the jury
to return a verdict (guilty obviously). The foreman of the jury was
handed the necessary papers and was instructed step-by-step by the judge
what to write where. I remember this because I was sitting next to the
foreman who was almost immobilised with anxiety (apart form shaking like
a leaf) and I had to help him find his way through the papers.

Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled similarly in
(some) courts in America?

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Garrett Wollman - 12 Jan 2010 17:20 GMT
>Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled similarly in
>(some) courts in America?

I don't think so.  My experience, at least, is that the jury is
informed by the judge of what has transpired and is then dismissed.
In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were
still some counts remaining to be decided.

There are some circumstances in which, in some systems, the judge can
instruct the jury to make a particular finding.  There are occasional
controversies when the jury does not do so.

-GAWollman

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Default User - 12 Jan 2010 21:54 GMT
> > Would a change of plea once a trial had started be handled
> > similarly in (some) courts in America?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were
> still some counts remaining to be decided.

I am a little surprised about the latter. I would have thought that the
guilty plea on one count would be prejudicial to deliberation on the
others.

Brian

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Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:02 GMT
Garrett Wollman:
>> I don't think so.  My experience, at least, is that the jury is
>> informed by the judge of what has transpired and is then dismissed.
>> In one trial I sat on, we proceeded to deliberate anyway as there were
>> still some counts remaining to be decided.

"Brian":
> I am a little surprised about the latter. I would have thought that the
> guilty plea on one count would be prejudicial to deliberation on the
> others.

Consider: "Okay, I admit it, the jewelry I pawned did come from the
woman.  But I didn't kill her -- I just robbed her dead body."
If that's the guy's defense to a murder charge, you'll need to be
told about the jewelry anyway, so the fact that he initially denied
stealing it doesn't matter.

ObAUE: "robbed".  To many people that word implies a theft specifically
committed by violence or the threat of violence.  But I can't think of
another one that would fit as well in the quoted passage.
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Nick - 20 Jan 2010 20:56 GMT
> Garrett Wollman:
>>> I don't think so.  My experience, at least, is that the jury is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> committed by violence or the threat of violence.  But I can't think of
> another one that would fit as well in the quoted passage.

These days in colloquial BrE, "rob" just means to steal.  To the extent
that your villain would be more likely to say ".... I didn't kill her --
I just robbed it from her dead body".
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James Hogg - 20 Jan 2010 21:11 GMT
>> Garrett Wollman:
>>>> I don't think so.  My experience, at least, is that the jury is
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> extent that your villain would be more likely to say ".... I didn't
> kill her -- I just robbed it from her dead body".

Which brings us neatly back to the original sense of "robe": it meant
clothes taken as spoil, booty robbed from the slain.

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Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2010 18:05 GMT
[...]

> Needless to say, acceptance of a guilty plea occurs without a jury.
> And that's the way most criminal cases are actually disposed of in the
> US.

Here, too. Get my daughter started sometime on the joys of making a
complicated journey in wet weather to a smelly old court with revolting
loos, only to be told that the equally repellent client has decided to
plead.

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Mark Brader - 14 Jan 2010 20:12 GMT
Bob Lieblich:
> In the US, all felony cases are eligible for jury trial.  In most
> American jurisdictions, the default is nevertheless trial without a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> other jurisdictions allow this, nor have I figured out why it isn't
> unconstitutional.

It was noted elsewhere in the thread that in the US constitution, the
6th Amendment establishes, or rather codifies, a right to jury trials.
But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The Trial
of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury".

So what seems, on the face of it, unconstitutional, is for "the default"
to be trial without a jury.  Has there been a judicial interpretation
that (obAUE) "Crime" here actually means a felony, or what?

In Canada, the corresponding constitutional guarantee is in Section 11
of the Constitution Act, 1982: "Any person charged with an offence
has the right ... (f) except in the case of an offence under military
law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury
where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five
years or a more severe punishment".  (I don't know if there was a law
on this before 1982.)  But this seems similar to the British "serious
cases" rule that started this thread.
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Stan Brown - 15 Jan 2010 12:01 GMT
Thu, 14 Jan 2010 14:12:42 -0600 from Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>:
> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The
> Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime" here actually means a felony,
> or what?

Yes, that's exactly right.  The Supreme Court took the most
unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean
"some".  Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the
Land/.

I believe the current rule is that you are entitled to a jury trial
if the potential penalty is more than a year in prison (or, maybe,
more than six months; it's a while since I checked).  It doesn't
matter whether the crime is called felony or misdemeanor; what
matters is the potential penalty.  Some individual states probably
have a broader guarantee of trial by jury for state crimes.

It's easy to see the motivation for the reinterpretation: if you
could have a jury trial over every speeding ticket,the courts would
work even less well than they do now.  But it's not easy to see a
*legal* justification.

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Mark Brader - 16 Jan 2010 23:09 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The
>> Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by
>> Jury".

>> ...Has there been a judicial interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime"
>> here actually means a felony, or what?

Stan Brown:
> Yes, that's exactly right.  The Supreme Court took the most
> unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean
> "some".  Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the
> Land/.

What case, what year?

> It's easy to see the motivation for the reinterpretation: if you
> could have a jury trial over every speeding ticket,the courts would
> work even less well than they do now.  But it's not easy to see a
> *legal* justification.

Well, as I've noted, in Ontario traffic violations such as speeding
tickets are not crimes -- they can't be, since they come under
provincial law.  But the US system is different.  I believe some
states also have the concept of "quasi-criminal offenses", but
that something like a minor theft or property damage would normally
be considered a crime.
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Garrett Wollman - 17 Jan 2010 01:01 GMT
>Well, as I've noted, in Ontario traffic violations such as speeding
>tickets are not crimes -- they can't be, since they come under
>provincial law.  But the US system is different.  I believe some
>states also have the concept of "quasi-criminal offenses", but
>that something like a minor theft or property damage would normally
>be considered a crime.

In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies,
misdemeanors, and traffic infractions.  Misdemeanors and traffic
infractions can be tried by the town or village Justice of the Peace;
felonies must be tried by a jury unless the accused waives that right.
I'm not sure whether they have any equivalent of the British "either
way" offenses, as the only crime I've ever been accused of (in New
York or anywhere else) was a traffic infraction.  (I showed up at
court, and the cop did not, so the charge was dismissed for want of
prosecution.)

In Massachusetts, there are two categories of crimes: felonies and
misdemeanors.  Traffic violations are administrative infractions, like
code violations and parking tickets, and are not considered criminal.
They are heard by a non-judge lawyer called a "clerk-magistrate" at
the district court having jurisdiction, under rules of evidence which
are extremely favorable to the police.  (For example, the police
officer need not appear in person, and everything written on the
ticket is taken as true.)  The outcome can be appealed to a /de novo/
trial before a district court judge, in which the normal rules of
evidence apply, the accused is entitled to compulsory service, and so
on.  (The state tries to make this as difficult and expensive a
proposition as possible, because the cops get paid more to work on
traffic details than they do to spend a day in court, and they often
don't show at the hearing.)

The situation in Vermont is similar to that in Massachusetts but
without the clerk-magistrate hearing.  Police don't tend to do traffic
details in Vermont (the police unions are weaker there, so
construction companies can hire civilian flaggers) so they are more
likely to show at the hearing.  My recollection is that it rarely gets
that far.  Both Vermont and Massachusetts have Justices of the Peace,
but all they normally do, so far as I can tell, is officiate at
weddings.

-GAWollman

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Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
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Stan Brown - 17 Jan 2010 13:44 GMT
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman
<wollman@bimajority.org>:
> In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies,
> misdemeanors, and traffic infractions.

ITYM "violations".

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Garrett Wollman - 17 Jan 2010 17:39 GMT
>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman
><wollman@bimajority.org>:
>> In New York, there are three categories of crimes: felonies,
>> misdemeanors, and traffic infractions.
>
>ITYM "violations".

I don't.  On the "information" (traffic ticket) form, the box is
labeled "TI".

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
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Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Stan Brown - 19 Jan 2010 11:21 GMT
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:39:39 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman
<wollman@bimajority.org>:

> >Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:01:25 +0000 (UTC) from Garrett Wollman
> ><wollman@bimajority.org>:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I don't.  On the "information" (traffic ticket) form, the box is
> labeled "TI".

You're right, according to
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/vehicle-and-traffic/VAT0155_155.html

I was going by the /Cortland Standard/, which used to report traffic
stops and referred to the charges as "X, a N-th degree misdemeanor"
or "X, a violation".  They *sounded* like they knew what they were
talking about. :-)

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Stan Brown - 17 Jan 2010 14:10 GMT
Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:09:23 -0600 from Mark Brader <msb@vex.net>:

> Mark Brader:
> >> But even before that, Article III, Section 2, required that "The
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> What case, what year?

Rembar doesn't cite the cases (unusual for him), but he gives the
years.

'As early as 1904, [the Court]' hinted that jury trial should be
reserved for crimes that might bring down six months or more in
prison, and finally, in 1970, it drew the line through a point just
one day later -- "more than six months", it said. The 1970 opinion
took no note of the statement of 1904, but half a year in jail seemed
to both benches the place to put the line.

"These rulings offer a remarkable insult to our language."

Wikipedia, in footnote 2 of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Con
stitution ,
cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970)

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Mark Brader - 18 Jan 2010 00:49 GMT
Stan Brown:
> Rembar doesn't cite the cases (unusual for him), but he gives the
> years. ...
> Wikipedia ... cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970)

Thanks.
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Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 09:07 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>>> ...Has there been a judicial interpretation that (obAUE) "Crime"
>>>> here actually means a felony, or what?

Stan Brown:
>>> Yes, that's exactly right.  The Supreme Court took the most
>>> unambiguous word imaginable, "all", and reinterpreted it to mean
>>> "some".  Charles Rembar is scathing on this topic in /The Law of the
>>> Land/.
...
> Wikipedia, in footnote 2 of
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Con
> stitution ,
> cites Baldwin v. New York, 399 U.S. 66 (1970)

That ruling can be found at <http://supreme.justia.com/us/399/66/case.html>,
but the principle that "all crimes" is not interpreted as broadly as
possible goes back further.  A footnote points to Callan v. Wilson,
127 U. S. 540 (1888), or <http://supreme.justia.com/us/127/540/case.html>,
or <http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3607026596840288432>.

In the judgement, justice John Marshall Harlan (Sr.) wrote:

#  The word "crime", in its more extended sense, comprehends every
#  violation of public law; in a limited sense, it embraces offences of
#  a serious or atrocious character.  In our opinion, the provision is
#  to be interpreted in the light of the principles which, at common
#  law, determined whether the accused, in a given class of cases,
#  was entitled to be tried by a jury.

So he's saying that the Constitutional provision was not meant to overturn
a principle of common law.  I guess that makes some sense, if true.
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