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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010"Me standing here is..."
Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of interest here: "Me standing here is very much for a temporary period of time but I do so in the knowledge that when Peter comes back, that he will come back with a clear record." (as quoted by Reuters)  SignatureJames >Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister >of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >(as quoted by Reuters) As quoted by Hansard (the offical record): http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2009/100111today.htm#13 My standing here is very much temporary. I do it in the knowledge that when Peter comes back, he will come back with a clear record. The Reuters report might be verbatim. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) skrev: > >"Me standing here is very much for a temporary period of time but I do > >so in the knowledge that when Peter comes back, that he will come back > >with a clear record." > >(as quoted by Reuters) > As quoted by Hansard (the offical record): > http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports2009/100111today.htm#13 > My standing here is very much temporary. I do it in the knowledge > that when Peter comes back, he will come back with a clear record. > The Reuters report might be verbatim. It seems to me that the me-version is better. The important issue is that *she* is standing, not that she is *standing*. Is that just me? SignatureBertel, Denmark >Peter Duncanson (BrE) skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Is that just me? Both "me" and "my" are used. "My" is considered to be more grammatical. One would say "Her standing here is very much temporary" but not "She standing here is very much temporary". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Peter Duncanson (BrE) skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >One would say "Her standing here is very much temporary" but not "She >standing here is very much temporary". I accidentally edited out the following: It is the "standing" by her that "is temporary". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jan 11, 11:57 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:24:54 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Peter Duncanson, UK > (in alt.usage.english) I agree that the subjunctive* "my" is meant here but note that the word "standing" is open to several interpretations. * I am not an uber-prescriptive grammar naz, 'onest guv. On Jan 12, 12:05 am, Steev Sauvage <steevsauv...@googlemail.com> wrote: > On Jan 11, 11:57 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > * I am not an uber-prescriptive grammar naz, 'onest guv. I havn't looked anything up her ( always a near-fatal error) but I may be confusing "subjunctive" with "gerund", which just goes to show that: 1. I am not a grammar nazi, and 2. It is time for bed. > On Jan 12, 12:05 am, Steev Sauvage <steevsauv...@googlemail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > 2. It is time for bed. "My" is a possessive pronoun. "Standing" is a noun; most people, but by no means all, would call it a gerund. "My standing" is therefore a noun modified by a possessive pronoun. (There's probably a better term than "modified," but I hope the point is clear.) What makes "Me standing" controversial is that it looks like a noun "modified" by a pronoun in the objective case. It's possible to analyze the same two words as a present participle modifying the pronoun, but sometimes the result just doesn't feel right. I partake of the American tendency to treat the -ing form as a noun and use the possessive form for what precedes it, but it's only a tendency, and you'll find both variants in differing degrees of use in just about every English-speaking country. I'd go for "My" in the example under construction, but I don't claim to have the only path to The Truth. SignatureBob Lieblich Gerundive as the next person >>Peter Duncanson (BrE) skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > One would say "Her standing here is very much temporary" but not > "She standing here is very much temporary". That would be the correct contrast if the alternative was "I standing here". The question is whether the accusative is as allowable as the genitive, and "her" fills both slots. What's your opinion on "His standing here" and "Him standing here"? (We all agree that "He standing here" is right out.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't |learn anything at the Harvard kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Business School. (650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen | Harvard Business School http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] > What's your opinion on "His standing here" and "Him standing here"? > (We all agree that "He standing here" is right out.) I don't know that there's much call for opinion. "Standing" would seem to be a gerund, so it calls for the genitive, unless one goes in for such forms as "I think I'll smoke me pipe now." To allow "him" in the subject sentence would require that "standing" be an adjectival participle; but the verb form "is" seems to rule any such interpretation right out. That is, in-- Him/His standing here is very much temporary. --clearly "standing" is the subject, and the attributive genitive "His" is an adjective modifying that gerundial subject. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > --clearly "standing" is the subject, and the attributive genitive "His" > is an adjective modifying that gerundial subject. Do you have the same judgement when "standing" is the object: I don't mind him standing there. I don't mind his standing there. I have a slight preference for "him" there. As a subject, I'd normally go with "his", but if there's contrastive stress, "him" sounds okay: _Him_ standing there bothers me. ? Him standing there bothers me. ? _His_ standing there bothers me. His standing there bothers me. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Information: If you really want to Palo Alto, CA 94304 |know the definitive answer, post |the wrong information, and wait for kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |someone to come by and explain in (650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how |wrong you are. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Eric The Read [...] > Do you have the same judgement when "standing" is the object: > > I don't mind him standing there. > I don't mind his standing there. Yes, definitely. That "him" would would bring, if not a shudder, at the least a wince. > I have a slight preference for "him" there. As a subject, I'd normally > go with "his", but if there's contrastive stress, "him" sounds okay: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ? _His_ standing there bothers me. > His standing there bothers me. What bothers me? Reasonable question, no? But "what" implies some _thing_, which is a noun (or a gerund). If we recast so that it is the person and not the standing that is bothersome, we get something else altogether: "He, standing there, bothers me." SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ Peter Duncanson (BrE) skrev: > >It seems to me that the me-version is better. The important issue > >is that *she* is standing, not that she is *standing*. > >Is that just me? > Both "me" and "my" are used. "My" is considered to be more grammatical. I am aware of the normal expression. But I do feel that the me-version stresses that she is standing there instead of someone else. Since English is not my first language, I ask if anyone else shares my feeling (which will not go away if you don't). > One would say "Her standing here is very much temporary" but not "She > standing here is very much temporary". As Evan Kirshenbaum pointed out, "she" is neither accusative nor genitive. SignatureBertel, Denmark >> Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister >> of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The Reuters report might be verbatim. But then again it might not. There is a (possibly apocryphal) story of an MP who complained that Hansard wasn't reporting exactly what he had said. So, to his great embarrassment, the next speech he made in Parliament was reported strictly verbatim. He didn't complain after that. I think they normally tidy up speeches a bit (if only to remove "er" (AmE "uh") etc.). Signatureathel >>> Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First >>> Minister of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > that. I think they normally tidy up speeches a bit (if only to > remove "er" (AmE "uh") etc.). I wonder what the Irish equivalent of Hansard did with this example of "unparliamentary language": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f-TMSbQ8mk SignatureJames >>>> Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First >>>> Minister of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > of "unparliamentary language": > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f-TMSbQ8mk For those who don't follow Youtube links, I can reveal that the "unparliamentary language" was not censored in any way: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20091211.xml&Node=H6&Page=15 SignatureJames >> Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister >> of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The Reuters report might be verbatim. I doubt that anyone would admit to this, but I suspect that the Hansard editors often fix the grammar as they're putting the record into writing. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister >>> of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I doubt that anyone would admit to this, but I suspect that the Hansard >editors often fix the grammar as they're putting the record into writing. This is admitted but not necessarily widely known. From the University of Dundee Library and Learning Centre: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/library/guides/lib_govp.htm Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) - House of Lords and House of Commons These volumes contain reports of the debates which take place in Parliament. Since the reporters who note down the proceedings are allowed to correct grammar and insert proper forms of address of Members of either House, the printed version is not, strictly speaking, verbatim. It is, however, an extremely accurate record in which the sense of what was said is preserved. As a further guarantee of exactitude, Members are allowed to suggest amendments to the daily Hansard so that the final version is correct. The Library only takes the final version. AFAIK the same rules apply to the records of proceedings in the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Arlene Foster, the woman standing in for Peter Robinson, First Minister >of Northern Ireland, had a sentence in her statement that might be of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >(as quoted by Reuters) If it were me, I'd say "my". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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