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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Home sweet home
1-There is no place like home 2-Home sweet home Are they literally the same? When would you expect them to be heard, in which contexts? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu >1-There is no place like home > >2-Home sweet home > >Are they literally the same? When would you expect them to be heard, >in which contexts? Well, they're not literally the same, or even grammatically similar. (1) appears (with there's instead of there is) as the last line of the song by Henry Bishop whose title is (2); (2) also appears several times within the song. I don't know whether either or both phrases were already in common use before the song was written. Nowadays you would be unlikely to hear either used other than ironically, I think; and the context might be similar. I don't think in fact I have ever heard anyone say (1) unless referring to the song, but I have heard (2) with the implication that there is nowhere quite so awful as home. I am not sure what you were asking, but does that answer your question? Katy >> 1-There is no place like home >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Katy My experience is the reverse - I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'Home sweet home', but I think it's common to hear 'There's no place like home', particularly after finally getting there after a long, tedious and exhausting trip. The only similarity is that they both tend to be understood as rather overly sentimental statements (or, of course, used ironically), unless you really are extremely happy and relieved to finally arrive home safely.  SignatureCheryl > My experience is the reverse - I don't think I've ever heard anyone say > 'Home sweet home', but I think it's common to hear 'There's no place > like home', particularly after finally getting there after a long, > tedious and exhausting trip. That's exactly when my parents would say (oe perhaps recite or intone) "Home sweet home!". >> Nowadays you would be unlikely to hear either used other than ironically, I >> think; and the context might be similar. I don't think in fact I have ever [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >like home', particularly after finally getting there after a long, >tedious and exhausting trip. Oops! I think I got that the wrong way round. I have heard people say "There's no place like home", but not (unlessing referring to the song "Home, sweet home". Apologies. Katy >>> Nowadays you would be unlikely to hear either used other than ironically, I >>> think; and the context might be similar. I don't think in fact I have ever [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >"There's no place like home", but not (unlessing referring to the song "Home, >sweet home". That's interesting: I thought Katy was right the first time. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ [...] >>> My experience is the reverse - I don't think I've ever heard anyone >>> say 'Home sweet home', but I think it's common to hear 'There's no [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's interesting: I thought Katy was right the first time. We still preserve the children's bouncing rhyme, "To market, to market, To buy a fat pig! Home again, home again, Jiggety-jig! To market, to market, To buy a fat hog! Home again, home again, Joggety-jog!" Quite commonly one of my thoroughly adult children or I will text or telephone the last bit on getting home after visiting. SignatureMike. > We still preserve the children's bouncing rhyme, > "To market, to market, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Quite commonly one of my thoroughly adult children or I will text or > telephone the last bit on getting home after visiting. For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google Books, I see that back to 1841, with the first line of each "Ride to the market". I first see "joggety" in 1906. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> We still preserve the children's bouncing rhyme, >> "To market, to market, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that back to 1841, with the first line of each "Ride to the market". > I first see "joggety" in 1906. Are you saying that "jog" and "hog" are unrhymes in your dialect? What about all the other "-og" words: dog, log, etc? SignatureRob Bannister >> For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't >> rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google >> Books, I see that back to 1841, with the first line of each "Ride >> to the market". I first see "joggety" in 1906. > Are you saying that "jog" and "hog" are unrhymes in your dialect? > What about all the other "-og" words: dog, log, etc? /O/: hog, log, frog, dog /A/: jog, bog, soggy, nog, togs, cog, pog SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"It makes you wonder if there is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |anything to astrology after all." Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Oh, there is," said Susan. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |"Delusion, wishful thinking and (650)857-7572 |gullibility." http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't >>> rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > /O/: hog, log, frog, dog > /A/: jog, bog, soggy, nog, togs, cog, pog This is that tricky area in which NAmE-speakers and the rest of us become phonically incommensurable. On reflection, I rather think "joggetty-jog" rather than "jiggetty-jog" may be a corruption, by me, from the form I first learnt. SignatureMike. >>> For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't >>> rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > /O/: hog, log, frog, dog > /A/: jog, bog, soggy, nog, togs, cog, pog I wonder which esoteric linguistic theory would explain why you differentiate these particular sounds, especially the fairly similar "dogs/togs" pair. SignatureRob Bannister > >>> For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't > >>> rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > differentiate these particular sounds, especially the fairly similar > "dogs/togs" pair. "It's just how it happened"? By the way, I have "bog" and "soggy" under /O/. That must be the difference between Cleveland and Chicawgo. (I also don't know what a pog is.) -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >By the way, I have "bog" and "soggy" under /O/. That must be the >difference between Cleveland and Chicawgo. (I also don't know what a >pog is.) Cardboard milk-bottle cap...collecting them was a big fad a decade or two ago....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cardboard milk-bottle cap...collecting them was a big fad a decade > or two ago....r I was thinking of the Hawaiian drink, a combination of passion fruit, orange, and guava juices. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Jerry Friedman filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I was thinking of the Hawaiian drink, a combination of passion fruit, >orange, and guava juices. As a former Regular in soc.culture.irish, I was thinking Póg mo thóin. ("Kiss My Arse" in Irish Gaelic) Shane MacGowen's band was a take-off on this - Pogue Mahone - but the group soon became just the Pogues. I don't remember the story exactly, but I believe that the BBC refused to air the group when it was named Pogue Mahone. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > > Jerry Friedman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I was thinking of the Hawaiian drink, a combination of passion fruit, > orange, and guava juices. Learn something every day. Or two things. -- Jerry Friedman >> >>> For us, the rhyme ended with "jiggety jog". (Which also didn't >> >>> rhyme with "hog", but it was close enough.) Looking at Google [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > difference between Cleveland and Chicawgo. (I also don't know what a > pog is.) I think it may be the difference between Chicawgo and the most of the rest of North America. I'm on the fence about "togs"; it's not a word I can remember using myself. And I, too, am clueless about pogs. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > [...] >>>> My experience is the reverse - I don't think I've ever heard anyone [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Quite commonly one of my thoroughly adult children or I will text or > telephone the last bit on getting home after visiting. Either part of the above or bits from "Home is the hunter, home from the hill and the sailor home from the sea" are pronounced regularly in our car when we get back from shopping. Especially, when we get home from the market, but really most car trips. We've never gone in for "home sweet home", but I've heard other people say it often enough. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> To market, to market, >> To buy a fat hog! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the market, but really most car trips. We've never gone in for "home >sweet home", but I've heard other people say it often enough. My stepfather used to quote Sinatra at such moments: "It's very nice to go trav'ling To Paris, London and Rome. It's oh, so nice to go trav'ling, But it's so much nicer, Yes, it's so much nicer to come home." ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > But it's so much nicer, > Yes, it's so much nicer to come home." Any Yogi Bear fans in the house?: Oh what a wonderful feeling To be fancy free and rome, But oh what fun to wet your whistle And whistle your way back home! (or something like that) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Katy Edgcombe: >>>> Nowadays you would be unlikely to hear either used other than >>>> ironically, I think ... I don't think in fact I have ever >>>> heard anyone say (1) unless referring to the song, but I have heard >>>> (2) with the implication that there is nowhere quite so awful as home. Cheryl Perkins: >>> My experience is the reverse - I don't think I've ever heard anyone say >>> 'Home sweet home', but I think it's common to hear 'There's no place >>> like home', particularly after finally getting there after a long, >>> tedious and exhausting trip. Katy Edgcombe: >> Oops! I think I got that the wrong way round. I have heard people say >> "There's no place like home", but not (unlessing referring to the song >> "Home, sweet home". Katy Jennison: > That's interesting: I thought Katy was right the first time. And I'd find it a bit unusual to hear *either* one, whether ironically or otherwise. SignatureMark Brader | "...the average homeowner should expect... Toronto | meteor damage every hundred million years." msb@vex.net | --Robert Nemiroff & Jerry Bonnell My text in this article is in the public domain. > >1-There is no place like home > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > within the song. I don't know whether either or both phrases were already > in common use before the song was written. Some more details, from http://www.19thindiana.com/files/may02.pdf The lyrics were by John Howard Payne, an American, who had written it in collaboration with the English composer, Sir Henry Bishop as part of the libretto of an opera, "Clari, or The Maid of Milan". The Opera was first produced in London in 1823. Because of the widespread popularity and commercial success, which it enjoyed in the United States, "Home, Sweet Home" quickly became the first genuine American "hit" despite its British composer. Verse 1 'Mid pleasures and palaces though I may roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home; A charm from the sky seems to hallow us there, Which seek thro' the world, is ne'er met with elsewhere. Chorus Home! Home! Sweet, sweet home! There's no place like home, There's no place like home. I'd say that the song as a song was pretty much forgotten by the era of big bands and rock and roll, but some of the phrases remained in popular consciousness. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > <k...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > >1-There is no place like home [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > within the song. I don't know whether either or both phrases were already > > in common use before the song was written. ... I found two Google Books hits on "no place like home" that are really before 1823: /The Savage/, by "Piomingo" (John Robinson?), 1810. It looks rather like the phrase was already familiar. http://books.google.com/books?id=hSskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q=&f=false An imitation of Martial by Samuel Rogers in /Poems on Various Occasions.../ (1782). http://books.google.com/books?id=VmACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=&f=false To my surprise, there are many more hits on "Home sweet home". It appears, for instance, in the refrain of the 1796 translation of the Winchester College song "Dulce Domum" printed in /The Beauties of England and Wales/, by Edward Wedlake Brayley and John Britton, Vol. VI (1804). Home, sweet home ! An ample treasure ! Home ! with ev'ry blessing crown'd ! Home ! perpetual source of pleasure ! Home ! a noble strain resound ! http://books.google.com/books?id=W6YMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q=&f=false The English is less repetitive than the Latin refrain, which appears on the previous page of the book: Domum, domum, dulce domum! Domum, domum, dulce domum! Dulce, dulce, dulce domum! Dulce domum, resonemus! -- Jerry Friedman > I found two Google Books hits on "no place like home" that are really > before 1823: > > /The Savage/, by "Piomingo" (John Robinson?), 1810. It looks rather > like the phrase was already familiar. OK, I can't fault that one. "Home at last--quite exhausted--no place like home." that's quite literal and understandable. But I found others that must be dating errors. One, for example, is dated 1799, and the quote runs, "Much as we say or sing about there being 'no place like home,' ..." However, the title page shows that that 1799 is the date of the founding religious society, and there's another copy of the book in GooBoo dated 1850. "Say or sing..." I think that's the divider -- "say" is going to be older, "sing" is newer. > http://books.google.com/books?id=hSskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q=&f=false > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Dulce, dulce, dulce domum! > Dulce domum, resonemus! Wikipedia says there are two songs called Dulce domum, one from Winchester College as you say, and the other written by Robert Ambrose in 1876. Their article on the Winchester College one doesn't have any mention of time before the 19th century, so I would have to hunt further for your 1796 ... OK, I find it in Brewer's Phrase and Fable of 1898: In the March number of the Gentleman's Magazine, 1796, a translation, signed "J. R.," was given of the song; and Dr. Milner thinks the original is not more than a century old. Elsewhere they say that John Reading, organist of Winchester College, set the original Latin to music, but he died in 1692 so that doesn't quite match the "J.R." Oh well, he had a son John Reading, and probably a grandson John Reading, too. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > I found two Google Books hits on "no place like home" that are really > > before 1823: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 1799 is the date of the founding religious society, and there's another > copy of the book in GooBoo dated 1850. Of course. I said I found two examples because I'd rejected the ones like that whose dates appeared to be wrong. Usually (I hope always), when I give a date from GB without comment, I've checked it. > "Say or sing..." I think that's the divider -- "say" is going to be > older, "sing" is newer. Makes sense. Or anything without singing, such as "this maxim mind" in the one by Rogers below. > > An imitation of Martial by Samuel Rogers in /Poems on Various > > Occasions.../ (1782). > > >http://books.google.com/books?id=VmACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=&f=false I don't think you can fault that one either. > > To my surprise, there are many more hits on "Home sweet home". It > > appears, for instance, in the refrain of the 1796 translation of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Home, sweet home ! An ample treasure ! ... > >http://books.google.com/books?id=W6YMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q=&f=false > > > The English is less repetitive than the Latin refrain, which appears > > on the previous page of the book: > > > Domum, domum, dulce domum! ... > Wikipedia says there are two songs called Dulce domum, one from > Winchester College as you say, and the other written by Robert Ambrose > in 1876. Their article on the Winchester College one doesn't have any > mention of time before the 19th century, so I would have to hunt further > for your 1796 ... It's in the link I gave. > OK, I find it in Brewer's Phrase and Fable of 1898: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > quite match the "J.R." Oh well, he had a son John Reading, and probably > a grandson John Reading, too. Or the translation was by Justinianus Raggs or Jochebed Rhysdavies or somebody else totally unrelated to the composer. -- Jerry Friedman > <k...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > >1-There is no place like home > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > became the first genuine American "hit" despite > its British composer. Interesting. > Verse 1 > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > big bands and rock and roll, but some of the phrases remained in popular > consciousness. Thank you all. Marius Hancu >I'd say that the song as a song was pretty much forgotten by the era of >big bands and rock and roll, but some of the phrases remained in popular >consciousness. Not forgotten at all! I've sung it dozens of times (4-part version), and audiences love it. Katy > >I'd say that the song as a song was pretty much forgotten by the era of > >big bands and rock and roll, but some of the phrases remained in popular > >consciousness. > > Not forgotten at all! I've sung it dozens of times (4-part version), and > audiences love it. I'm glad to hear it. You're ahead of me on that one. I learned "Home Sweet Home" from a book but I don't think I've ever heard it elsewhere. Except maybe a sentimental violin line in an old movie. I learned a lot of music via the Folk Song Society of Greater Boston and related folkie circles, but although they honor old songs in general, they seem to discriminate against old songs where the composer is known. I don't know why. Highfalutin poetic language, maybe, in some cases. Perceived racism in others, I suppose (Stephen Foster and minstrel shows in general). It's not strictly the love of Anonymous because they are happy to sing songs composed by folkie types in the last fifty years. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > <k...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > In article <1jc7pm0.2rxhhkwnfveeN%t...@euronet.nl>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm glad to hear it. You're ahead of me on that one. I learned "Home > Sweet Home" from a book but I don't think I've ever heard it elsewhere. Same here. > Except maybe a sentimental violin line in an old movie. ... For one example, Wikipedia says it plays in the background of /The Wizard of Oz/ when Dorothy is repeating "There's no place like home." -- Jerry Friedman >> >I'd say that the song as a song was pretty much forgotten by the era of >> >big bands and rock and roll, but some of the phrases remained in popular [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >in general). It's not strictly the love of Anonymous because they are >happy to sing songs composed by folkie types in the last fifty years. Would you agree that true folk songs, as opposed, for example, to Bob Dylan's and his friend's pop songs that were often promulgated as folk songs, were passed from person to person over the years? With these, the original composer is rarely known. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> 1-There is no place like home >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I am not sure what you were asking, but does that answer your question? Both sayings can be found embroidered and framed on walls. SignatureJames >> In article >> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Both sayings can be found embroidered and framed on walls. But probably not in the home of aue readers, I venture to assert. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> In article >>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >But probably not in the home of aue readers, I venture to assert. But such an object might have been inherited and stored somewhere out of sight. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> In article >>>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >But such an object might have been inherited and stored somewhere out of >sight. Together with the set of three flying ducks and a picture of that lady with a green face. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> In article >>>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > But such an object might have been inherited and stored somewhere out of > sight. Possibly but James wrote "framed on walls" which suggests display, to me. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> In article >>>>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Possibly but James wrote "framed on walls" which suggests display, to me. Good point. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> In article >>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>> Are they literally the same? When would you expect them to be >>>> heard, in which contexts? [...] >>> Nowadays you would be unlikely to hear either used other than >>> ironically, I think; and the context might be similar. I don't >>> think in fact I have ever heard anyone say (1) unless referring to >>> the song, but I have heard (2) with the implication that there is >>> nowhere quite so awful as home. [...]>> >> Both sayings can be found embroidered and framed on walls. > > But probably not in the home of aue readers, I venture to assert. Unless on an antique sampler, I venture to asseverate. What about a tasteful flight of ducks? SignatureMike. >>>> In article >>>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > What about a tasteful flight of ducks? Perhaps ironically. But see Sara's web site for true inventiveness in home decor. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> In article >>> <346f4b6e-376d-422c-8a8b-6c3fc89acdbc@t42g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > But probably not in the home of aue readers, I venture to assert. When I was a child, embroidering on the walls was strictly forbidden. Worse than lipstick on Mum's dressing table mirror. SignatureRob Bannister > > k...@cam.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > But probably not in the home of aue readers, I venture to assert. I must admit or brag, though, that I have a cushion with a very fine needlepoint of a hypercube or tesseract that my mother made for me 33 years ago. It's this projection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hypercubestar.svg It's very fine in both senses, as the canvas is 14 squares to the inch. My mother said, "Never again". Indeed, she said that many times, both while working it and afterward. -- Jerry Friedman |
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