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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Morrison: commenced to waiving
Hello: Is this "commenced to waiving" instead of "commenced to waive" Southern, including black, dialect? Couldn't be standard under any circumstances, I guess? --- [Porter, one of Macon Death's tenants, is drunk again, now waiving a gun] "[He] Ain't out for nobody in particular. Just perched himself up in the attic window and commenced to waiving a shotgun. Say he gotta kill somebody before morning." Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon, p. 24 --- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the attic window and commenced to waiving a shotgun. Say he gotta kill > somebody before morning." "waiving"? Seems a bit unlikely. I suppose one could waive a shotgun, but one would not appear terribly fierce.  SignatureDavid >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon, p. 24 >--- Something's wrong here. The word should be "waving". I would expect "commenced to wave a shotgun" or "commenced waving a shotgun". The entire context of what you have written is a manner of conversational speech that is African-American dialect. (Though not the dialect of all African-Americans) Since you used "hi", where I thought "hie" would appropriate, could it be that you are reading a sloppy transcription? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >Is this > >"commenced to waiving" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Something's wrong here. The word should be "waving". I would expect > "commenced to wave a shotgun" or "commenced waving a shotgun". Well, it's none of the "commenced to wave a shotgun" or "commenced waving a shotgun" to which I agree. > The entire context of what you have written is a manner of > conversational speech that is African-American dialect. (Though not > the dialect of all African-Americans) Of course, African-American dialect. > Since you used "hi", where I thought "hie" would appropriate, could it > be that you are reading a sloppy transcription? No, it's the same at Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/ydxbl9f Thank you all. Marius Hancu > Is this > "commenced to waiving" > instead of > "commenced to waive" > Southern, including black, dialect? Yes. Two examples in Google books. August Wilson is biracial, his mother being an African American from North Carolina. August Wilson - Drama - 1986 - 101 pages When he commenced to whupping on me ... quite naturally I run to get out of the way. (Pause. ... I picked up them reins and commenced to whupping on him. ... My soul is rested: movement days in the Deep South remembered? - Page 261 Howell Raines - Political Science - 1983 - 488 pages So we got sho'nuff interested in it then, after we commenced to havin' the classes. ... And the Negroes, they commenced to lookin' at one another SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Is this >> "commenced to waiving" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >the classes. ... And the Negroes, they commenced to lookin' at one >another Do these examples indicate to you that "commenced to" is a feature of black dialect? It seems to me that, if you do, any common construction found in writing by or about blacks then becomes black dialect. I feel that black dialect is construction that is uniquely found in black speech and seldom found in the speech of whites unless they are trying "talk black". For example, black people will say "I stay on 3rd Avenue" even if they've lived on 3rd Avenue their entire life. White people will say "I live on 3rd Avenue". Another example, is "conversate". I frequently hear black people using "conversate" where white people use "conversation" or "converse". Because these examples are uttered primarily by black people, they can be considered black dialect. A phrase, though, that is used by both black and white people is not - in my book - dialect. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >> Is this > >> "commenced to waiving" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Do these examples indicate to you that "commenced to" is a feature of > black dialect? Yes. > It seems to me that, if you do, any common > construction found in writing by or about blacks then becomes black > dialect. The first is a play, written by a biracial person with direct heritage of African-American dialect. Since you questioned it, I looked further and found that the central character of the play is indeed black. I also happened across more examples of "commence/d/ing to XXXing" in Wilson's work. The second looks exactly like someone being quoted within the work, and indeed the description of the book says it is a collection of interviews. The snippet is not enough to give identification, but it is full of more dialect markers. > I feel that black dialect is construction that is uniquely found in > black speech and seldom found in the speech of whites unless they are [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > be considered black dialect. A phrase, though, that is used by both > black and white people is not - in my book - dialect. I really can't see why this worried you, but I hope you are reassured. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >> Is this >> >> "commenced to waiving" [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >interviews. The snippet is not enough to give identification, but it is >full of more dialect markers. It seems to me that to pronounce this as black dialect that you have to determine that it is not also prevalent in writing by/about whites. Just finding it in use in black writing doesn't do it. >> Because these examples are uttered primarily by black people, they can >> be considered black dialect. A phrase, though, that is used by both >> black and white people is not - in my book - dialect. > >I really can't see why this worried you, but I hope you are reassured. It doesn't worry me. I simply think that "commenced to" is not black dialect. To establish that it is, you'd have to use the same search technique and not find it use by white writers or in the mouths of white characters. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > It doesn't worry me. I simply think that "commenced to" is not black > dialect. You mean "commenced to" followed by "-ing," right? > To establish that it is, you'd have to use the same search > technique and not find it use by white writers or in the mouths of > white characters. You're welcome to look for examples that it exists in other dialects as well. I'm satisfied that it does exist in US black English, and it would be interesting to hear that it is also said in by rural whites or in the Scottish highlands or whatever. But you know perfectly well how near to impossible it is to prove a negative proposition. We can show that something exists, to a strong degree of general certainty, but we can almost never show that it doesn't exist, not to that same degree of satisfaction. I have my doubts because I did scan through the first 200 Google Book returns of "commenced to" before I posted. The search can't look for parts of words, so the only way to find those with "-ing" was manually (if that's the word). The *only* results with the XX-ing form instead of the infinitive were these two identifiably black ones. The rest were all things like: commenced to run commenced to whirl commenced to receive I have now checked the first 100 of "commence to" and "commencing to" and found no "XX-ing". You need not tell me "That doesn't prove it doesn't exist" because I know that -- but it does give me a good idea of the odds. I did spot this interesting snippet about the general form: Notes and queries - Page 70 William White - 1891 Touching " commence to," it would greatly surprise me to hear that this modern refinement on "begin to" has a warranty of more than forty years. ... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > I have my doubts because I did scan through the first 200 Google Book > returns of "commenced to" before I posted. The search can't look for > parts of words, so the only way to find those with "-ing" was manually Try "commenced to * ing" to find the few hyphenated examples (just one valid one in a Google Books search, and one more in a web search), or fill in any particular verb (from those examples, "laughing" and "talking"). Looks like a mix of black and white to me, both Southern and Western. ¬R > > Is this > > "commenced to waiving" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the classes. ... And the Negroes, they commenced to lookin' at one > another Thank you, Donna. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "commenced to waive" > Southern, including black, dialect? Try a search. Here are some results from the first page for "commenced to raining". A number of people included pictures of themselves or the person quoted--very helpful for racial identification. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~relativz/ 1885, woman born in New York State, probably white. http://mog.com/music/New_Edition recent, white man http://www.rstonesifer.com/genealogy/archives/art_frank_j_penington_1863_diary.htm 1863 (or 1862?), white boy in Delaware http://www.civilwargazette.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=78124 1863, young man from New York State, almost certainly white. The first word of his letter is "Urs" for "Yours". Kids those days... http://books.google.com/books?id=hJv-tA5N4_sC&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q=&f=false 1864, white man from Virginia, same historical context http://www.chuckrenfroe.net/airstream1/id12.html 2007, white man from Georgia, affects a countrified style some of the time http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/07/forces-aligning-against-me.html 2009, white woman from Indianapolis http://wanderingnerd.com/?p=79#comments 2007, white man, probably from Indiana I think we can conclude that it's used by whites as well as blacks, with no obvious regional pattern. > Couldn't be standard under any circumstances, I guess? Not in my opinion. -- Jerry Friedman >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon, p. 24 >--- Typo for "waving". To "waive" means to not apply a rule. There was once a book with the title "Brittania waives the rules" (written by some Colonel Blimp who objected to "the colonies" being given independence). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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