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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Earthquake and Port-au-Prince (ObAUE)
The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes the French or English pronunciation. Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?)  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes >the French or English pronunciation. > >Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?) It is a francophone country. According to both the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia it has two official languages, French and Creole. WikiP says that the creole is French-based. Unsurprisingly an attempt to listen to internet-streamed radio stations located in Port-au-Prince has been unsuccessful. http://radiotime.com/region/c_100792/Port-au-Prince.aspx The webpage for Radio Metropole Haiti (Port-au-Prince) says: http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/live.php Message: Suite au séisme, nous rencontrons actuellement un problème de liaison entre haïti et nos serveurs de streaming, nous travaillons à régler le problème. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >>and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > de liaison entre haïti et nos serveurs de streaming, nous > travaillons à régler le problème. Poor souls, hope they come out of it without too much heartbreak. We had a shaker this Saturday, (6.5) not too much damage and very minor injuries. >http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/live.php Radio Metropole Haiti (Port-au-Prince) is back on the web. I've just recorded this instance of "Port-au-Prince": http://www.peterduncanson.net/temp/Port-au-Prince.mp3 SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/live.php > > Radio Metropole Haiti (Port-au-Prince) is back on the web. I've just > recorded this instance of "Port-au-Prince": > http://www.peterduncanson.net/temp/Port-au-Prince.mp3 Hmph. The accent is rather French. Thank you for the link, which I have been listening to as I read the group. They mostly speak Creole, somewhat frenchified, as it is in la Métropole, but they hardly ever say Port-au-Prince, or at least I haven't noticed it yet. The version without the "t"sounds foreign, to me. Ha. "Nan vil Potopw&~s-a", "in the city of P-au-P". Apologies for the funetic spelling, to any Haitian who may see this. > The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, > and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes > the French or English pronunciation. > > Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?) The French and Creole pronunciations are / pr&~s/ (if I've got that right) as in French. When I lived there, the form used in speaking English was "Port o'Prince", / ,porto'prIns/, all pronunciations as in English. Another thing that sometimes misleads people trying to give the name its local pronunciation is that that the "t" is sounded -- the liaison is made between "Port" and "au": /pOrtopr&~s /. Sorry, I have no idea how ASCII IPA would represent the French, and it's still too dark here for that kind of thinking. The first vowel, represented as /O/, should be the backwards "c", I think. To them that have shall be given. >> The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >> and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > English was "Port o'Prince", / ,porto'prIns/, all pronunciations as in > English. Doesn't it depend on how the speaker pronounces the name of the country? If they say "haytee" they probably pronounce the "Port" and the "Prince" as in English; if they say "I.E.T." (as if they were English initials, with very little stress on the middle one) they probably approximate the French pronounciation. > Another thing that sometimes misleads people trying to give the name > its local pronunciation is that that the "t" is sounded -- the liaison > is made between "Port" and "au": /pOrtopr&~s /. Not in France it isn't (or at least, not by the newsreader of today, who definitely did not pronounce the t). > Sorry, I have no idea > how ASCII IPA would represent the French, and it's still too dark here > for that kind of thinking. The first vowel, represented as /O/, > should be the backwards "c", I think. >> > To them that have shall be given. Indeed. It isn't much fun being an ordinary person in Haiti at the best of times. Signatureathel > "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > English initials, with very little stress on the middle one) they > probably approximate the French pronounciation. Yes, and some people do say it that way. As you said, though, that is the French pronunciation they are using, even though in an English sentence. Some people find it pretentious -- I remember hearing someone ridicule the Spanish-influenced pronunciation "Nicarawwa" -- but it seems to me to be natural enough if you are used to hearing a local version. >> Another thing that sometimes misleads people trying to give the >> name its local pronunciation is that that the "t" is sounded -- >> the liaison is made between "Port" and "au": /pOrtopr&~s /. > > Not in France it isn't (or at least, not by the newsreader of today, > who definitely did not pronounce the t). It's said that way in Canada too, by francophones as well as anglophones. But Harvey was specifically asking about the local version, and I never heard that pronunciation in Haiti (admittedly, my int* is fifty years out of date). >> Sorry, I have no idea >> how ASCII IPA would represent the French, and it's still too dark [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Indeed. It isn't much fun being an ordinary person in Haiti at the > best of times. And yet, they seem to manage to be happy, from time to time. Don't think I could stand it. *Last winter on _Afghanada_, a CBC radio serial dramatising the lives of some fictional soldiers in Kandahar, the point was made that Canadians (the ones there and now, anyway)say "int" for what Americans call "intel". I hadn't known that, but am resolved to toe the national line. The program is probably available for streaming at the CBC site, for those who want to follow the adventures of Coach, Deaner and Chucky. I find it interesting because it's written with the advice of people in close touch with troops on the ground there, and the stories are an indication of how they are coping. These have grown darker and more pessimistic, over the last year or so. [...] > *Last winter on _Afghanada_, a CBC radio serial dramatising the lives > of some fictional soldiers in Kandahar, the point was made that > Canadians (the ones there and now, anyway)say "int" for what Americans > call "intel". I hadn't known that, but am resolved to toe the > national line.[...] Brit, too, unsurprisingly. You can have, for example, "sigint" and "humint". But, centres of gravity being what they are, the terms are likely to become Americanized with the effluxion of time. SignatureMike. On Jan 13, 2:02 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "humint". But, centres of gravity being what they are, the terms are > likely to become Americanized with the effluxion of time. "SIGINT" and the like are common in the US, though generally all caps-- human intelligence (HUMINT) is gathered by agents on the ground, while signals intelligence (SIGINT) is composed of communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic intelligence (ELINT), and foreign instrumentation signals intelligence (FISINT). Satellites gather imaging intelligence (IMINT). I think it's only with the bare form that "intel" is used in the US. Another USA quirk: "military intelligence" refers to the intelligence efforts of the Army alone, not those of other branches of the uniformed services (Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, NOAA, PHSCC) or of overarching organizations like the Defense Intelligence Agency. > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "humint". But, centres of gravity being what they are, the terms are > likely to become Americanized with the effluxion of time. Ah, the Imperial line. I'll tow that, then, as far as it will stretch. The compund versions do seem familiar, but I didn't recall seeing the word by itself. > *Last winter on _Afghanada_, a CBC radio serial dramatising the lives > of some fictional soldiers in Kandahar, the point was made that > Canadians (the ones there and now, anyway)say "int" for what Americans > call "intel". Do their computers run on Int chips, or are we dealing with a capitonym (at least in Mark's weak sense) here? Signatureathel > "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do their computers run on Int chips, or are we dealing with a > capitonym (at least in Mark's weak sense) here? I don't think I have seen a post from Mark on that subject yet. If "the weak sense" refers to abbreviations retaining only the first syllable, I guess so. That would be a good meaning for "cephalonym". Or maybe it's the seasonal version. "Int" is advance knowledge of your Christmas presents, so no "el". >> "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "cephalonym". Or maybe it's the seasonal version. "Int" is advance > knowledge of your Christmas presents, so no "el". What? No "elint"? At least, I think that was used before "sigint". But let the chips fall. They will, anyway, near or far from the tree. >>> "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >What? No "elint"? At least, I think that was used before "sigint". I doubt it. SIGINT, the interpretation of intelligence from radio intercepts, goes back at least as far as WWII. ELINT is similar except the radiation is usually beyond radio frequency bands, IINM, from military devices, such as RADAR, invented well after the radio was. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> said: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Or maybe it's the seasonal version. "Int" is advance knowledge of > your Christmas presents, so no "el". Mark disagreed with Peter's definition of "capitonym", saying that only the meaning, not necessarily the pronunciation, needs to change with an initial capital. Signatureathel > > The French and Creole pronunciations are / pr&~s/ (if I've got that > > right) as in French. When I lived there, the form used in speaking [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > English initials, with very little stress on the middle one) they > probably approximate the French pronounciation. Bilingual Canada is schizophrenic as usual. English speakers pronounce the capital in French style (Prince rhyming with pans) but say the name of the country as Haytee (two syllables) while French speakers use Haiti (three syllables -- I E T.) A Hawaiian woman recently on the Antiques Road Show pronounced her island's name with a specially subtle extra inflection, I thought. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes >the French or English pronunciation. > >Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?) It is a faraway place of which we know little. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, > and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes > the French or English pronunciation. > > Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?) When Haiti's been in the news in the past, the TV newspeople have pronounced it like the English words Port oh Prance, for whatever that's worth. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >> and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >pronounced it like the English words Port oh Prance, for whatever >that's worth. Much more "prance" in the news today than in previous days. Plus the Beeb (at least in the form of george Alagiah) seems to have finally remembered that we used to call the place High-EE-ti rather than HAY-ti. (Just when did that usage slip in anyway? It was always an asperated version of the French when I was growing up.) Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks., Hants.) >The news channels are currently reporting the earthquake in Haiti, >and can't seem to decide if the "prince" in the capital's name takes >the French or English pronunciation. > >Anyone know which is used locally? (Both?) I heard a third version of Port-au-Prince from the lips of a UN coordinating-type woman being interviewed on a UK TV news channel. I think she was of the UN HQ in NYC. She used a French pronunciation with the "au" as "a". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) |
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