 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010Surprising spellchecker omissions No. 437
Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd.  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. It didn't like 'concordancing' for me today - I'm not that surprised. Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately transcribed the given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do that? DC -- > Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately transcribed the > given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do that? Very, very small faeries crammed together under appalling conditions in so-called "hard disk housing". Pierre SignaturePierre Jelenc The Gigometer www.gigometer.com The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org > > Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately transcribed > > the given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do that? > > Very, very small faeries crammed together under appalling conditions > in so-called "hard disk housing". I always thought it must be something like that... -- > > Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately transcribed the > > given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do that? > > Very, very small faeries crammed together under appalling conditions in > so-called "hard disk housing". Are you sure those are faeries and not daemons? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > > Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately > > > transcribed the given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are you sure those are faeries and not daemons? They sound more like imps... -- Django Cat filted: >> > > Meanwhile, however, Vista speech recognition accurately >> > > transcribed the given name 'Graziella' for me. How do they do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >They sound more like imps... That's what sidhe said....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > > It didn't like 'concordancing' for me today - I'm not that surprised. That anything like conga dancing? --Jeff SignatureIs man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's? --Friedrich Nietzsche > >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > > > > It didn't like 'concordancing' for me today - I'm not that surprised. > > That anything like conga dancing? Oddly enough, Concord, Mass. has some of the best contradancing in the US. >> >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Oddly enough, Concord, Mass. has some of the best contradancing in the >US. Wonderful town. I nearly stole a Revolutionary War-period house on its Commons, years ago, the price was so low. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. >>> It didn't like 'concordancing' for me today - I'm not that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oddly enough, Concord, Mass. has some of the best contradancing in > the US. It's interesting that popular etymology has concealed the rurality of the contradance. It started as an English "country-dance" and was introduced to France during the Regency 1715-23. The French "contre-danse" then returned to England as the "contradance". The learned writer in the Gentleman's Magazine 1758, p. 174 thus got things the wrong way round when he wrote, "As our dances in general come from France, so does the country-dance, which is a manifest corruption of the French contre-danse." SignatureJames > It's interesting that popular etymology has concealed the rurality of > the contradance. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > from France, so does the country-dance, which is a manifest corruption > of the French contre-danse." Since I've been contradancing, off and on, since 1979, I've heard this discussed a few times. Your bit about it being the French Regency in particular does not ring any bells, though -- can you happen to pass on any evidence? Perhaps England was at war with France before and after, so that was the only window for cultural sharing? Actually, I think we could argue about "rurality." What we think of as country dances were pretty much composed and done at court and ballrooms and the like. The name suggests they were originally inspired by some long-ago rustic romps that are lost to us. I don't know how much is known for certain. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> It's interesting that popular etymology has concealed the rurality >> of the contradance. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > inspired by some long-ago rustic romps that are lost to us. I don't > know how much is known for certain. As for my evidence, I just looked at the OED, which says that there is no evidence for a French word "contredanse" before its appearance as an adaptation of the English word. Groves dates the introduction earlier than the French Regency: "The most popular French dance of the 18th century. Its development was stimulated by the English country dance introduced at the French court in the 1680s, as seen in André Lorin's two manuscripts on the country dance (c1686 and 1688) presented to Louis XIV. Its gaiety and the novelty of its democratically progressive pattern appealed to the younger generation, so that French dancing-masters were soon composing dances in the English style. They did not attempt to translate the English name but merely pronounced it in the French manner. English tunes were imported along with the dance form; according to the Swiss Béat de Muralt, 'Les airs sont d'une vivacité qui émeut l'âme'. Feuillet's Recüeil de contredances (Paris, 1706/R) contains many English dances: Greensleeves appears as Les manches vertes and Christ Church Bells as Le carillon d'Oxfort." SignatureJames > Groves dates the introduction earlier than the French Regency: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > dances: Greensleeves appears as Les manches vertes and Christ Church > Bells as Le carillon d'Oxfort." Thanks for checking the dates, I appreciate that. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Oddly enough, Concord, Mass. has some of the best contradancing in the > US. And have I mentioned the Takoma Park 'Contra Contra Contradancers' here before? S. now on another continent >> Oddly enough, Concord, Mass. has some of the best contradancing in the >> US. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >S. now on another continent Your mention of Takoma Park suggests you are studying at the University of Maryland, Stephanie. Yes? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Harvey Van Sickle: > Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. Oh, the rurality and all the passengers! Er, dictionary users. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "I can't tell from this... whether you're msb@vex.net | a wise man or a wise guy." --Ted Schuerzinger Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:16:31 GMT from HVS <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: > Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. To me the omission seems quite reasonable, and the word seems odd. :-) SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:16:31 GMT from HVS ><usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > To me the omission seems quite reasonable, and the word seems odd. >:-) Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun for "the state of being rural", what would come to mind? The only other candidate I can think of would be "ruralness", but that looks much odder (and clunkier) to me than "rurality". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun for "the > state of being rural", what would come to mind? I hesitate to ask, (not been all that good at this stuff 'an all), but wouldn't "the state of ..." be a description and therefore not a noun? > The only other candidate I can think of would be "ruralness", but > that looks much odder (and clunkier) to me than "rurality". > > -- > Cheers, Harvey > CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed On 15 Jan 2010, aquachimp wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > all), but wouldn't "the state of ..." be a description and > therefore not a noun? I don't think so. "The state of being drunk" is "drunkenness" -- isn't that a noun? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The only other candidate I can think of would be "ruralness", but > that looks much odder (and clunkier) to me than "rurality". The NSOD gives "rurality" without comment and "ruralness" indicated as rare. If I use OpenOffice Writer to produce a file containing "rurality" and "ruralness", the spelling checker accepts "rurality" but objects to "ruralness" and suggests "rurality" as an alternative. SignatureLes (BrE) > The NSOD gives "rurality" without comment and "ruralness" indicated as > rare. If I use OpenOffice Writer to produce a file containing "rurality" > and "ruralness", the spelling checker accepts "rurality" but objects > to "ruralness" and suggests "rurality" as an alternative. Microsoft Word 2007, on the other hand, likes neither and suggests "reality" and "realness". Sigh. Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "Every observable corresponds to a potential fixed underlying reality, but no possible underlying reality corresponds to every observable." [Toby Bartels] > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun for "the > state of being rural", what would come to mind? I'm with Stan about the oddness of the word and I can't think of a situation in which I'd need to use it. I'd probably work round it in a lengthier way. > The only other candidate I can think of would be "ruralness", but > that looks much odder (and clunkier) to me than "rurality". SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a situation in which I'd need to use it. I'd probably work round > it in a lengthier way. FWIW, here's how I used it: "Wallingford's decline into a forgotten backwater was mirrored in the immediate vicinity by centuries of largely-unchanged rurality." It seemed a concise way of writing what I wanted to say, and longer ways -- "...by centuries in which it retained a largely-unchanged rural character", say -- seem a lot more awkward to me. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > ways -- "...by centuries in which it retained a largely-unchanged > rural character", say -- seem a lot more awkward to me. I see nothing wrong with "rurality" here, despite my earlier flippant remark. Here are the quotations from the OED: 1730 BAILEY (folio), Rurality, Ruralness, Country-likeness, Clownishness. 1778 [W. H. MARSHALL] Minutes Agric., Digest 1 A few years acquaintance with the World had convinced him, that Nature, Rurality, Contemplation and Happiness, are nearly allied. 1809 N. PINKNEY Trav. France 236 It has..an animation, an air of cleanness and rurality which seldom belong to a populous city. 1853 SURTEES Sponge's Sp. Tour (1893) 11 The full rurality of grass country, sprinkled with fallows and turnip-fields. 1883 W. BESANT All in Garden Fair I. ii, The rurality of the place, to one fresh from town, seems overdone. 2010 HARVEY Indiscriminately Mixed, "Wallingford's decline into a forgotten backwater was mirrored in the immediate vicinity by centuries of largely-unchanged rurality." OK, I admit I added that last one, but it fits in well, and the dictionary needs a more recent example. SignatureJames On 15 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > OK, I admit I added that last one, but it fits in well, and the > dictionary needs a more recent example. Gosh, it does sort of fit in OK with the earlier quotations. (I don't know whether that's good or bad.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>> odd. >>>>> -) >>> Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun >>> for "the state of being rural", what would come to mind? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ways -- "...by centuries in which it retained a largely-unchanged > rural character", say -- seem a lot more awkward to me. I prefer the longer way, I think. As a reader unfamiliar with the word "rurality", I would stop to think about what the writer meant from the context, whereas I would not hesitate over the longer form. (I assume that Wallingford's decline was due to more bridges being built across the Thames.) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > meant from the context, whereas I would not hesitate over the > longer form. Interesting; the word came entirely naturally to me when I wrote it. > (I assume that Wallingford's decline was due to more bridges > being built across the Thames.) Yes, it was, but it was early: in 1415 the high road from London to Gloucester/Wales was diverted through Abingdon, and it pretty well removed the whole point of Wallingford. (Wallingford's interesting. Very strategic location -- the lowest point on the Thames that was fordable at all seasons -- and a hugely important town from the late 800s until the highway was moved. Should still be in Berkshire, if you ask me.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >hugely important town from the late 800s until the highway was >moved. Should still be in Berkshire, if you ask me.) It still is, if you ask me, a resident in that rurality. Wallingford bridge is 5 or 6 miles northeast by east of where I'm sitting in a village here in North Berkshire. I read that Wallingford is an example of a planned Saxon burh, built in King Alfred's time when there was that spot of trouble with the Danes, with a clear street pattern and both a bullcroft and a kinecroft (today's names) within the turf walls, and a castle put there to guard the crossing. Looking at today's maps it's not certain to me where Harvey's moved highway lay. The main road through this village is today called London Road, though it doesn't particularly point to London, but rather the more locally important town of Reading (a heavyweight town in the Middle Ages). London Road has the same official number (A417) from the Thames crossing at Goring (of Gap fame) to Gloucester and on northwards into the wilderness inhabited by Vinny Burgoo. But it doesn't go near Abingdon. Sheet 13 of the Ordnance Survey Old Series one-inch (to the mile) maps suggests the road from Henley-on-Thames via Nettlebed and then staying on the Oxfordshire bank of the Thames to Bensington (Benson today) and Dorchester, turning off to Clifton Hampden and only crossing the Thames at Abingdon bridge. Then, I suppose, on to Kingston Bagpuize and either to Faringdon to join the modern A417, or up to Witney to join the modern A40; but the latter is the road from London to High Wycombe and Oxford before Gloucester and South Wales, and passes miles away from Wallingford. So what's the connection between Agincourt and Abingdon? Another good SDC question gone to waste. SignaturePaul On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >>> (I assume that Wallingford's decline was due to more bridges >>> being built across the Thames.) [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Looking at today's maps it's not certain to me where Harvey's > moved highway lay. The local route on today's maps isn't entirely clear to me, either; my source was the VCH (http://www.british- history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43256), which says: "The high road to Gloucestershire and South Wales passed through Wallingford until 1415, when the bridges at Culhamford and Burford by Abingdon were built, and the road was diverted from a point near Nuffield in Oxfordshire, about 3 miles above Wallingford." AFAICT, that seems to point to the realigned road being the modern A4074 and A415. (I'm not at all sure of that, though. ) > The main road through this village is today > called London Road, though it doesn't particularly point to > London, but rather the more locally important town of Reading (a > heavyweight town in the Middle Ages). But that wawn't until later: Saxon and Norman Wallingford appears to have been notably more important. The VCH, again: "At the date of the Domesday Survey Wallingford was already a royal borough of considerable importance. (fn. 16) Its position in the Survey proves that it was the chief town in Berkshire, far outstripping in importance its later rivals, Reading, Windsor and Newbury. There were nearly 500 closes and dwelling-houses in the town; it had a weekly market held on Saturdays, a mint (the moneyer living rent free in a house near the castle), and a gild merchant. (fn. 17) Four priests are mentioned. It is clear that the borough was exceedingly prosperous, and that the Conquest, followed by the building of the castle, had stimulated not checked its growth." (That bit's from http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx? compid=43257) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >>> On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> London to Gloucester/Wales was diverted through Abingdon, and >>> it pretty well removed the whole point of Wallingford. [...] >> Looking at today's maps it's not certain to me where Harvey's >> moved highway lay. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >AFAICT, that seems to point to the realigned road being the modern >A4074 and A415. (I'm not at all sure of that, though. ) The A415 as the new road [from London?] to Abingdon must be correct. It runs southeast out of Abingdon over Abingdon Bridge to Nags Head island in the middle of the Thames, then over Burford Bridge to Andersey Island (with its lost village) which it traverses on a raised causeway and then leaves by Culham Bridge over what's now a backwater but apparently was the older shipping channel of the river. That all happens in 1200 yards out of Abingdon. The A415 joins (or leaves, depending which way you're going) the modern A423 Oxford-Henley road at Dorchester. The A423 could well be a 'new' road to replace the older route through Stadhampton and Watlington. The stretch from Dorchester to Nuffield crosses the Thame (not to be confused with the Thames) outside Dorchester and passes through Shillingford (an expensive crossing?), but then from Benson to Nuffield it has undergone several major changes of route which can be deduced from older maps. In particular, RAF Benson has built its runways right across an older line of the new road. The diversion point near Nuffield of the new highway to Abingdon from the old Wallingford road might have been on Gangsdown Hill, or just above it across Nuffield Common, at SU679876. The latter route looks more likely on the ground. I like roads, and maps. Now I must start folding them all away. SignaturePaul On 16 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote > [...] [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > I like roads, and maps. I'd never have guessed! > Now I must start folding them all away. On-line maps is good stuff, too, innit. (Partial to Streetmap rather than Multimap or GoogleMaps, meself; not sure why.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 16 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >>> On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>> from a point near Nuffield in Oxfordshire, about 3 miles above >>> Wallingford." From the same Berkshire history source, in the section on the parish of Bray (where I was christened and brought up) that included Maidenhead bridge: "A much greater increase [of prosperity and population], however, was due to the building of the bridge, for the road to the west which had previously crossed the river at Babham End and passed through Cookham was then diverted at Two-mile Brook and carried over the new bridge through the hamlet of Maidenhead to the Thicket, where the main road to Henley and Gloucester branched off from that to Reading and Bristol. " This is consistent with the Gloucester and South Wales road of Wallingford or Abingdon indeed coming from the Thames crossing at Henley, and having split from the Bath Road (the A4 in today's money) in Maidenhead at the Thicket (where Dick Turpin was many years later said to have been active, or so my mother told me). That branch at Maidenhead Thicket was for many years precisely the western terminal of the fledgling M4 motorway. >> I like roads, and maps. > >I'd never have guessed! Yeah, well. SignaturePaul On 16 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> On 16 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >>>> On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Bray (where I was christened and brought up) that included > Maidenhead bridge: I did some extensive research about 20 years ago (collation and synthesis, mainly, with some references to primary sources) on a major manor house at Bray. Like the change at Wallingford from Berks to Oxon, it struck me as a bit sad that, administratively, Bray is now just a minor bit of Maidenhead. Big come-down in status for what had been a pretty significant place. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >I did some extensive research about 20 years ago (collation and >synthesis, mainly, with some references to primary sources) on a >major manor house at Bray. May I ask - which one? >Like the change at Wallingford from >Berks to Oxon, it struck me as a bit sad that, administratively, >Bray is now just a minor bit of Maidenhead. Big come-down in >status for what had been a pretty significant place. But it's very strong on Michelin stars. SignaturePaul On 17 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> I did some extensive research about 20 years ago (collation and >> synthesis, mainly, with some references to primary sources) on a >> major manor house at Bray. > > May I ask - which one? Ockwells. (The work was for the new owner at the time -- the house had just been restored/repaired as a private residence after some years of neglect and disrepair; I was brought in by the historic- buildings architect who did the work.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 17 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >years of neglect and disrepair; I was brought in by the historic- >buildings architect who did the work.) Thanks. I know Ockwells Manor, but not from the inside. SignaturePaul On 17 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> On 17 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > Thanks. I know Ockwells Manor, but not from the inside. It's impressive -- or it was when I saw it; the restoration was sensitive and extremely well done. (The couple I did the work for were living there some years later, but I think they later separated or divorced, so I don't know if he still owns it -- or if not, what changes might have been made.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > I did some extensive research about 20 years ago (collation and > synthesis, mainly, with some references to primary sources) on a > major manor house at Bray. Like the change at Wallingford from > Berks to Oxon, it struck me as a bit sad that, administratively, > Bray is now just a minor bit of Maidenhead. Big come-down in > status for what had been a pretty significant place. Still pretty significant to foodies. We were lucky enough to be treated to dinner at the Waterside some years ago. Our friends who were staying there had greatly impressed Mme Roux by providing her with a successful remedy for cleaning tomato sauce off the expensive wallpaper. To our astonishment, she said it was the result of a party of diners the previous evening who had had a food fight. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote > >> [ ... ] >> I read that Wallingford is an example of a planned Saxon burh, >> built in King Alfred's time when there was that spot of trouble >> with the Danes, Funny they called it Wallingford, though, as "Wal-" names usually indicate places that continued to be inhabited by Celts in Saxon times. Signatureathel On 18 Jan 2010, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote >> On 15 Jan 2010, Paul Wolff wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > usually indicate places that continued to be inhabited by Celts > in Saxon times. I think the name predates the Saxon burh, and the Oxford dictionary of place-names breaks it down as "Ford of the family or followers of a man called Wealh’. OE pers. name + -inga- + ford". From other sources I've looked at it appears that "Wealh" is closely related to Wales or the Welsh -- so the Celtic link is, indeed, in there somewhere. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed Paul Wolff filted: >Looking at today's maps it's not certain to me where Harvey's moved >highway lay. The main road through this village is today called London [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >So what's the connection between Agincourt and Abingdon? Another good >SDC question gone to waste. So help me, if someone mentions Mornington Crescent I'll give him a thwack in the ear!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Paul Wolff filted: >> Looking at today's maps it's not certain to me where Harvey's moved [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > So help me, if someone mentions Mornington Crescent I'll give him a thwack in > the ear!...r <chortle> SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> So help me, if someone mentions Mornington Crescent I'll give him a >> thwack in >> the ear!...r > > <chortle> This thread does, however, put me in mind of one of Bill Bryson's passages - I think it must be in "Notes from a Small Island" - in which he claims that within five minutes of arriving in any bar in England one will overhear an argument about the best route by car from x to y. It's surprising that the route from London to Gloucester didn't pass through Oxford, crossing the Thames there. But probably the obvious modern route through the Chilterns was not used at all. Regards Jonathan Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:16:57 -0000 from Jonathan Morton <jonathan.mortonbutignorethispart@btinternet.com>: > This thread does, however, put me in mind of one of Bill Bryson's passages - > I think it must be in "Notes from a Small Island" - in which he claims that > within five minutes of arriving in any bar in England one will overhear an > argument about the best route by car from x to y. I recently reread NfaSI, and your memory is correct. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote >>> So help me, if someone mentions Mornington Crescent I'll give >>> him a thwack in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's surprising that the route from London to Gloucester didn't > pass through Oxford, crossing the Thames there. Not really, when you consider that the routes were largely established before the towns, and that Wallingford is further south and had an all-season ford that was bridged at a very early date (reputed to be in the 600s -- about the time that [St] Birinus came to Dorchester-on-Thames) A straight line from London to Gloucester passes through Abingdon; there's no obvious reason for the original main route to the west to run any further north. < But probably the obvious modern route through the Chilterns was not used at all. Yup. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote [...] > A straight line from London to Gloucester passes through Abingdon; > there's no obvious reason for the original main route to the west [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yup. And I suppose the reason must lie in political history..? There was no cause to go from tribe A's patch to tribe D's, but the scrap bronze dealers did a roaring trade between Aland and Betaria, with all of them holding the shiftless Ceans beneath contempt, or fearing their gruesome magic. Or something like that. There's something very satisfying about living in a country where some of the boundaries may be Celtic or older. SignatureMike. On 16 Jan 2010, Mike Lyle wrote >> On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that. There's something very satisfying about living in a > country where some of the boundaries may be Celtic or older. I just go on the basis that, when left to develop naturally, roads don't go where the people are; people go (and then congregate) where it's easiest to get to. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 16 Jan 2010, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >don't go where the people are; people go (and then congregate) >where it's easiest to get to. Roads and public utilities first, houses, places of employment and shops afterwards. I learned that from playing SimCity, assuming its programmers got it right. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>I just go on the basis that, when left to develop naturally, roads >>don't go where the people are; people go (and then congregate) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > shops afterwards. I learned that from playing SimCity, assuming its > programmers got it right. I suspect they probably did, though public utilities is probably even more important than roads. In effect, this originally meant a water supply. I believe that the reason for the abandoning of Old Sarum in 12-something in favour of the City of New Sarum (a.k.a. Salisbury) was that the wells were either drying up or would not permit any further expansion. Regards Jonathan > On 16 Jan 2010, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > don't go where the people are; people go (and then congregate) > where it's easiest to get to. There's nothing "natural" about this. The minute a road is contemplated, developers start planning housing. Obviously, there were already houses dotted around the place before the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and their mates started doing package tours in Britain, but you can bet that the second the first Saxon decided to walk from Eth to Thorn, the earth-moving equipment was on its way, glossy brochures were pinned up outside the mead hall and drunken warriors were being advised to invest their loot and pills* in property. * I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I found it hard to believe too. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >* I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I >found it hard to believe too. It may be best to stay out of French kitchens altogether: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8328294@N03/1646153610/ ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >> * I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ....r I think that's just a misspelling for what some kids call music - it certainly grates on my ears. SignatureRob Bannister On 18 Jan 2010, Robert Bannister wrote >> On 16 Jan 2010, Mike Lyle wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > outside the mead hall and drunken warriors were being advised to > invest their loot and pills* in property. Hmmm... You're clearly using a different definition of "natural" than I do. If "the minute X is contemplated, Y happens", and Y has followed X since time out of mind, it sounds like an almost-textbook case of a "natural" relationship; property development seems like a pretty natural activity to me. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 18 Jan 2010, Robert Bannister wrote > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > "natural" relationship; property development seems like a pretty > natural activity to me. Omidog - I never thought of it that way. This is horrifying, but possibly true. SignatureRob Bannister >I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I >found it hard to believe too. A few years ago in a UK agriculture newsgroup agricultural type people were have a relaxed discussion about a particular crop. There was a sudden interruption by a stranger who was scandalised and appalled at the casual discusion of rape. I don't know whether he hung around long enough to read the explanation that (Oilseed) Rape is a plant. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the casual discusion of rape. I don't know whether he hung around long > enough to read the explanation that (Oilseed) Rape is a plant. At my grammar school, somebody had planted a border with a few examples of different food crops. One of them was rape, clearly labelled. This was in the late 60s - I am still surprised when I find that people weren't aware of it much more recently. SignatureDavid >>> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >>> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > was in the late 60s - I am still surprised when I find that people > weren't aware of it much more recently. I thought I read somewhere that canola oil, found in all the cheapest supermarket bottles of cooking oil, actually comes from the rape plant, but they changed the name because they thought "rape oil" wouldn't sell. Hmmm, it looks like there's more to the story. Now I see why someone on some newsgroup was ranting on about how canola oil is a nasty poison put on grocery shelves by a bunch of conspirators. I'd been cooking with it for years without getting poisoned, so I just ignored the rant http://www.canolacouncil.org/canola_oil_the_truth.aspx SignatureCheryl >>>> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >>>> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >supermarket bottles of cooking oil, actually comes from the rape plant, >but they changed the name because they thought "rape oil" wouldn't sell. Canola is not just another name for Rape (Rapeseed). It is more specific than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola Canola is one of two cultivars of rapeseed or Brassica campestris (Brassica napus L. and B. campestris L.).[ Their seeds are used to produce edible oil that is fit for human consumption because it has lower levels of erucic acid than traditional rapeseed oils and to produce livestock feed because it has reduced levels of the toxin glucosinolates.] Canola was originally naturally bred from rapeseed in Canada by Keith Downey and Baldur R. Stefansson in the early 1970s, but it has a very different nutritional profile in addition to much less erucic acid. The name "canola" was derived from "Canadian oil, low acid" in 1978. It then makes the amazing statement: A product known as LEAR (for low erucic acid rapeseed) derived from cross-breeding of multiple lines of cod fish and salmon, as well as trout, is also referred to as canola oil and is considered safe for consumption.[8] FISH?! How did fish get into this? Reference [8] is to a statement by the Canadian Federal Government Department "Health Canada": http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/gmf-agm/appro/low_erucic-faible_erucique-eng.php Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed (Lear) Oil Derived From Canola-quality Brassica juncea (L.) CZERN. Lines PC 97-03, PC98-44 AND PC98-45 .... Plants, plants, plants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oilseed_rape >Hmmm, it looks like there's more to the story. Now I see why someone on >some newsgroup was ranting on about how canola oil is a nasty poison put >on grocery shelves by a bunch of conspirators. I'd been cooking with it >for years without getting poisoned, so I just ignored the rant > >http://www.canolacouncil.org/canola_oil_the_truth.aspx SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >>>>> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > FISH?! How did fish get into this? One of Shakespeare's tragedies. SignatureRob Bannister > I thought I read somewhere that canola oil, found in all the > cheapest supermarket bottles of cooking oil, actually comes from the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.canolacouncil.org/canola_oil_the_truth.aspx I especially like Q: Does canola contain cyanide? A: No, canola does not contain cyanide. Canola contains compounds that sound a little like that - isothiocyanates, compounds found naturally in many foods, especially in cruciferous vegetables such as cabbage, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, broccoli, kale, turnips and canola. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut |It must be ut- kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social (650)857-7572 | importance. | Tom Lehrer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >I especially like > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > as cabbage, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, broccoli, kale, turnips > and canola. I hope these people don't look too closely at the labels of their vitamin B12 supplements.... (Similarly, you can't smoke vitamin B3)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I hope these people don't look too closely at the labels of their vitamin B12 > supplements.... Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. SignatureDavid >> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. But do you still have to say you're sorry? SignatureJames >>> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > But do you still have to say you're sorry? Only if you eat the last of the Marmite. SignatureDavid >>> Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. >> >> But do you still have to say you're sorry? > >Only if you eat the last of the Marmite. Don't worry. It's impossible ever to get the absolutely very last scrape of Marmite out of a jar. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't worry. It's impossible ever to get the absolutely very last > scrape of Marmite out of a jar. Boiling water - add it to your next casserole or stew. SignatureDavid >>>>> Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Boiling water - add it to your next casserole or stew. I ruled that out because I thought that the boiling-water approach would mean drinking, rather than eating, the last of the Marmite. Still, if it's a solid-enough stew I'll concede the point. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>> Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > would mean drinking, rather than eating, the last of the Marmite. > Still, if it's a solid-enough stew I'll concede the point. Not boiling. If it's about coffee-making temperature and you act without delay, you can peel the labels off cleanly. SignatureMike. >>>>>>> Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Not boiling. If it's about coffee-making temperature and you act without >delay, you can peel the labels off cleanly. What, and lose this deathless verse: "I don't think I'll ever write a poem as lovely as Marmite"? At least, that's what it says on ours. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >But do you still have to say you're sorry? I'm reading this just a few minutes after reading that Erich Segal died yesterday. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>>>> I especially like [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I'm reading this just a few minutes after reading that Erich Segal > died yesterday. I'm sorry. SignatureJames >> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Marmite means never having to take B-vitamin supplements. Never say "never" in AUE. I have to have quarterly B12 injections, less pleasant than Marmite on toast but more effective. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Never say "never" in AUE. I have to have quarterly B12 injections, > less pleasant than Marmite on toast but more effective. I'd say. The thought of B12 injections on toast makes me squirm. SignatureRob Bannister Robin Bignall filted: >>> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Never say "never" in AUE. I have to have quarterly B12 injections, >less pleasant than Marmite on toast but more effective. I had to learn to give my mother those shots, first daily and then tapering off to about one every ten days...she had been taken oral supplements but they said that for some reason she wasn't absorbing them properly....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Robin Bignall wrote, in <fqtel51so312ed5gda5no284tkrau94jse@4ax.com> on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:38:57 +0000: > Never say "never" in AUE. I have to have quarterly B12 injections, > less pleasant than Marmite on toast but more effective. I do too. The medical profession seems to be much better at giving injections nowadays than I remember from my youth and I hardly feel those at all. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Robin Bignall wrote, in <fqtel51so312ed5gda5no284tkrau94jse@4ax.com> > on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:38:57 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > injections nowadays than I remember from my youth and I hardly feel > those at all. In the old days the needles were reusable (sterilised between use) and probably became less and less sharp. These days, single-use needles are standard and probably sharper. Also, I suspect that sensitivity to pain probably decreases with increasing age. SignatureLes (BrE) >> Robin Bignall wrote, in <fqtel51so312ed5gda5no284tkrau94jse@4ax.com> >> on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:38:57 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > are standard and probably sharper. Also, I suspect that sensitivity > to pain probably decreases with increasing age. Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp scratch"? I suspect it may even render them liable under the Trade Descriptions Acts, as it just isn't a scratch at all. I first noticed it about three or four years ago, and now always comment on it with mild derision, but they haven't stopped yet. It's like the medical profession's bizarre liking for "popping", which I know we've also mentioned here before. "Tummy," too: when t f did any of us last speak of our "tummy"? If the daft dental trend to calling themselves "Dr" continues, presumably dentists will eventually start talking to us about our "toofy-pegs". SignatureMike. > Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to > announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp > scratch"? I suspect it may even render them liable under the Trade > Descriptions Acts, as it just isn't a scratch at all. It is normally nurses who take samples of my blood regularly, and for around 10 years I have always commented to others that they announce as a "sharp scratch" when it feels nothing like a sharp scratch. Instead, it is more like a dull ache. SignatureZhang Dawei: Stoke-on-Trent, UK. Please use the Reply-To field for my email address, which is certain to remain valid for 2 weeks from the posting of this message. >> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > as a "sharp scratch" when it feels nothing like a sharp scratch. > Instead, it is more like a dull ache. I suppose nurses are trained to issue the warning because many patients avert their eyes and don't know when the prick is coming. It probably prevents some unnecessary jerks. I used to avert my eyes in the days when it was a rare thing to have a needle stuck in me. Now I have blood samples taken regularly and watch the procedure, to be impressed by the professional skill with which it's (usually) done. SignatureJames On 21 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you >>> have to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > patients avert their eyes and don't know when the prick is > coming. It probably prevents some unnecessary jerks. Pricks and jerks are everywhere. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 21 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Pricks and jerks are everywhere. I set that one up for you. SignatureJames On 21 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >> On 21 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I set that one up for you. You do the cross; I'll head it in. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> On 21 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I set that one up for you. Along with, pricks will come whether eyes are diverted or not. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > I used to avert my eyes in the days when it was a rare thing to have > a needle stuck in me. Now I have blood samples taken regularly and > watch the procedure, to be impressed by the professional skill with > which it's (usually) done. I also watch intently to see what's happening just out of inquisitiveness, and I always have. Indeed, many years ago, I had to visit a dentist who had a large mirror over the chair. He made sure that a blind-like covering was over it, but I asked for it to be removed so I could watch what he was doing. He commented that I was one of the very few who asked to be able to watch. I found it very interesting, and I actually learned a lot about what they do and how they do it which otherwise would be completely out of sight. I also found it made the whole procedure much more bearable. SignatureZhang Dawei: Stoke-on-Trent, UK. Please use the Reply-To field for my email address, which is certain to remain valid for 2 weeks from the posting of this message. >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have >>> to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and watch the procedure, to be impressed by the professional skill > with which it's (usually) done. Recent experiences with needles have been prefaced by, "This'll sting a little"; fairly accurate, if you view a "dull ache" as a sting that's deep and lasting. Whenever the drawers of blood have managed it as comfortably (for me) as I think it can have been done, I compliment them: "You have good hands", which they seem to appreciate, and which may in some small way reinforce whatever acts resulted in "comfortable". SignatureFrank ess >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the procedure, to be impressed by the professional skill with which it's > (usually) done. I gave blood plasma for many years, about once a month - it never bothered me to watch a skilled nurse or doctor shove a great enormous cannula up my arm. This was connected to a machine which sucked out a quantity of blood, span it in a centrifuge and the pumped back the stuff it didn't want. The cycle was repeated several times over about 40 minutes while I got a free sandwich and cup of tea. Sometimes I took my children along when they were toddlers - there was a play area for them. SignatureDavid >>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > minutes while I got a free sandwich and cup of tea. Sometimes I took my > children along when they were toddlers - there was a play area for them. I used to give blood regularly, until they decided I was no longer eligible, and those nurses always got the needle in right. As someone else mentioned, less experienced personnel may have problems. I had one who claimed I had exceptionally tiny veins and the doctor was going to have to do a 'cut down' I think it was callled to get the blood for a routine test. The doctor came in and got the needle in first try. Nowadays, if I need a blood test, it's done at a clinic by people who do it all day, every day, and they usually do a good and almost painless job. SignatureCheryl Cheryl wrote, in <7rtee6FjfjU2@mid.individual.net> on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:23:57 -0330: > I used to give blood regularly, until they decided I was no longer > eligible, and those nurses always got the needle in right. As someone [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Nowadays, if I need a blood test, it's done at a clinic by people who do > it all day, every day, and they usually do a good and almost painless job. After a pulmonary embolism scare I was on Warfarin for about six months which entailed fortnightly visits to the blood clinic for tests. The expertise among the practitioners varied from "right first time" to "I give up, I'll have to get so-and-so to do this". SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE <snip> >I gave blood plasma for many years, Having blood plasma in one's veins is unusual. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE ><snip> > >>I gave blood plasma for many years, > >Having blood plasma in one's veins is unusual. It might be unusual for you. The rest of us seem to have it. http://health.howstuffworks.com/blood.htm Plasma is the liquid portion of the blood. Blood cells like red blood cells float in the plasma. Also dissolved in plasma are electrolytes, nutrients and vitamins (absorbed from the intestines or produced by the body), hormones, clotting factors, and proteins such as albumin and immunoglobulins (antibodies to fight infection). Plasma distributes the substances it contains as it circulates throughout the body. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-blood-plasma.htm Blood plasma is the liquid component of blood, consisting of around half of the total blood volume. Plasma itself is around 90% water, with the 10% remainder including proteins, minerals, waste products, clotting factors, hormones, and immunoglobins. Without plasma, blood cells would have no medium to travel on as they moved through the body, and plasma also performs a number of other useful functions in the body. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It might be unusual for you. The rest of us seem to have it. I was expecting a simple mea culpa from you, not that blast. >http://health.howstuffworks.com/blood.htm > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > body, and plasma also performs a number of other useful functions in > the body. My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, but not blood plasma, as you stated. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, but > not blood plasma, as you stated. But you can! Here, pretty much at random (picked as the exact phrase is in the URL): http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-blood-plasma-donation.htm SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, >> but not blood plasma, as you stated. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here, pretty much at random (picked as the exact phrase is in the URL): > http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-blood-plasma-donation.htm And one of the main differences about donating plasma is that you can do it much more frequently. (Every few days, according to that link, as opposed to once a month for whole blood.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, but > not blood plasma, as you stated. You can give just plasma, as described earlier. The blood clinic I used to go to had those machines that take the blood from you, remove the plasma, and put the leftovers back in. I never used them myself, but for years, they took my blood and marked it 'for plasma only' because they weren't 100% certain I didn't have malaria parasites lurking in my body somewhere, but the plasma bit would be safe and still useful even if I did. Now, of course, practically any contact with Africa at any point in your personal history seems to disqualify you from donating any portion of your blood. But they always seems quite happy to have just the plasma, when that was considered safe, of course. SignatureCheryl Cheryl filted: >> My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, but >> not blood plasma, as you stated. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >your blood. But they always seems quite happy to have just the plasma, >when that was considered safe, of course. Back in the early 1980s, I used to *sell* quantities of my plasma for gas money...now it seems none of it's commercially acceptable because I had a small malignant blemish removed from the side of my neck...(this despite the fact that skin cancer isn't transmitted by blood or "blood products", and the unrelated fact that once removed the nevus never came back)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > My point, which I thought was obvious, is that one can give blood, but > not blood plasma, as you stated. Strange. That's what the doctors told me they were taking. SignatureDavid >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Strange. That's what the doctors told me they were taking. My opinion of yesterday has been overwhelmed by the opinions, which I don't doubt, of your doctor and fellow AUEers. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > patients avert their eyes and don't know when the prick is coming. It > probably prevents some unnecessary jerks. Nothing wrong with a warning, of course. But they used to use the expression "A little prick", which described the sensation much better; but I suppose some patients mistook it for a personal remark... SignatureMike. >>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >expression "A little prick", which described the sensation much better; >but I suppose some patients mistook it for a personal remark... I have occasionally come across "just a wee/little jag". "Jag" or "jagg" appears to be a Scots synonym for "prick". Dictionary of the Scots language: http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/ Jag, n.2 [f. Jag v.] A prick. — Where there is. .liveliness, a prick or a jagg will make the body cry; 1672 M. Bruce Rattling Dry Bones 36. Jag, v. [North. ME. jagge (a 1400, Morte Arthur), also jogge, and also e.m.E. jag(ge (1607). Of obscure origin; a parallel formation is the nearly synonymons Dag v.1 In the mod. dialects jag ‘to pierce, prick’ is chiefly north. and (espec.) Sc.] tr. and intr. or absol. To pierce, prick, stab. — Sum jaggit vthiris to the heft, With knyvis that scherp cowd scheir; Dunb. xxvi. 41. Sum jarris with a jed staf to jag throw blak jakkis; Doug. viii. Prol. 99. Being late, he bade her [the mare] ride, And with a spur did jag her side; a 1700 Watson’s Coll. i. 39. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>>>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>expression "A little prick", which described the sensation much better; >>but I suppose some patients mistook it for a personal remark... It's the old "It's just a little prick with a needle", "yes, but what are you going to do with it" joke that they are trying to avoid, isn't it? SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >expression "A little prick", which described the sensation much better; >but I suppose some patients mistook it for a personal remark... Women are so lucky. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the procedure, to be impressed by the professional skill with which it's > (usually) done. I'm glad you said "usually". I've noticed that (apparently over the last 12 months) I've started to bruise at the site where the needle goes in. A few months ago, I got a different, younger nurse who took five tries to find a vein - three in the right arm and two in the left. When the bruises came up the next day, I looked a proper junkie. I am assuming this bruising is yet another benefit of old age, a state I am becoming increasingly less enamoured with. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have >>>> to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I am assuming this bruising is yet another benefit of old age, a > state I am becoming increasingly less enamoured with. It was explained to me that many of the subcutaneous injuries that show on older appendages are not because of increased tenderness or liability to injury, but that they are of the same severity, just more visible through naturally thinning skin. Doesn't make them less ugly or alarming, though. SignatureFrank ess >>>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have >>>>> to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >visible through naturally thinning skin. Doesn't make them less ugly >or alarming, though. It also sounds as though Rob's nurse was not very experienced with the needle. During 1998 I was on intravenous feeding for several months, which required lines into the jugular and sub-clavian veins, swapping sides every couple of weeks. During that time I had so many cannulas inserted into my arms that the veins simply hid themselves and even today are hard to find. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have >>>>> to announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > through naturally thinning skin. Doesn't make them less ugly or > alarming, though. That's a bit of a worry - it wouldn't do to be thin-skinned on AUE. SignatureRob Bannister >> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > as a "sharp scratch" when it feels nothing like a sharp scratch. > Instead, it is more like a dull ache. The warning given here in Austria is "kleiner Stich", where klein = small and, in this context, Stich = prick, sting or similar. Perhaps, in the UK in the dim and distant past, they used to say "Here comes a little prick", but had to think of something else after an occasion when the consultant entered the room just after the nurse had said it. SignatureLes (BrE) >>> Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to >>> announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >prick", but had to think of something else after an occasion when the >consultant entered the room just after the nurse had said it. My biology teacher in high school was a Mr Klinepeter, a name we found highly amusing. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Why does the entire British medical establishment think you have to > announce an imminent needling with the inane warning "A sharp scratch"? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > daft dental trend to calling themselves "Dr" continues, presumably > dentists will eventually start talking to us about our "toofy-pegs". The Canadian doctors don't say that, although they do say things like 'pinch' to indicate it will hurt, which it hardly does, these days. What I really don't like is the tendency of some medical personnel (not limited to doctors) to tell you encouragingly that you may feel some "discomfort" during some procedure or test when they know perfectly well that you are going to feel fairly severe pain, but if they tell you that you might refuse to have the necessary treatment. I suppose that's their reasoning, anyway. Or maybe you'll tense up and make it worse. It's funny how they all do procedures now, too. SignatureCheryl >> Robin Bignall wrote, in <fqtel51so312ed5gda5no284tkrau94jse@4ax.com> >> on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 21:38:57 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >standard and probably sharper. Also, I suspect that sensitivity to pain >probably decreases with increasing age. The needles used for B12 injection are very fine and almost painless. I also have to inject myself with EPO each three weeks, and the self-injector pens that it comes in are quite elaborate, this sort of thing: http://www.cancernet.co.uk/images/pen-inj1.jpg I understand insulin is provided in similar devices. There's a bit more of a sting than the B12. As to blood tests, the difference between a nurse who does it only occasionally and the technician in a clinic who does blood tests all the time is quite noticeable. I've had the former have to take three or four stabs at finding a vein, whereas the latter get it right every time. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > I thought I read somewhere that canola oil, found in all the cheapest > supermarket bottles of cooking oil, actually comes from the rape plant, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.canolacouncil.org/canola_oil_the_truth.aspx That web page contains the sentence "Temperatures during wok cooking in China are about 100º F (38ºC) higher than those used in Canada and the U.S." (I hope that that's a degree sign I used. My magnifying glass seems to be saying that it isn't.) Somebody's been doing their tests at the wrong temperature. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan wrote, in <PYWdnQ51aLxfB8jWnZ2dnUVZ8k2dnZ2d@westnet.com.au> on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:43:12 +1100: > > I thought I read somewhere that canola oil, found in all the cheapest > > supermarket bottles of cooking oil, actually comes from the rape plant, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > seems to be saying that it isn't.) Somebody's been doing their tests at > the wrong temperature. It show here in Palatino Linotype as a small raised o underlined, defined in Windows Charmap as Masculine Ordinal Indicator, Alt-0186. What you should have is Alt-0176. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Peter Moylan wrote, in <PYWdnQ51aLxfB8jWnZ2dnUVZ8k2dnZ2d@westnet.com.au> > on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:43:12 +1100: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > defined in Windows Charmap as Masculine Ordinal Indicator, Alt-0186. > What you should have is Alt-0176. Only in the Windows-1252 character set, if I have correctly recalled the number. I don't think I have that character set available to me. In OS/2 those Alt-Numpad codes are a half-forgotten relic of DOS code pages, which Microsoft eventually turned into Windows code pages. I'm surprised that they even work in the current version of OS/2. When I tried Alt-0176 I got "░", a character I hadn't seen for years. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan filted: >> Peter Moylan wrote, in <PYWdnQ51aLxfB8jWnZ2dnUVZ8k2dnZ2d@westnet.com.au> >> on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:43:12 +1100: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >that they even work in the current version of OS/2. When I tried >Alt-0176 I got "â–‘", a character I hadn't seen for years. I don't know what that character looked like to you, but it appeared here as a lattice of free-floating dots (before transmogrifying into the three characters above when Newsguy tried to quote it)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Peter Moylan filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > lattice of free-floating dots (before transmogrifying into the three characters > above when Newsguy tried to quote it)....r That's one of the old DOS "box characters" in cp437 and cp850. 176 is the code for the degree sign in ISO 8859-1 (Latin 1), 248 is its code in cp437/cp850 and it should be translated automatically back and forth as needed for the underlying OS. Pierre SignaturePierre Jelenc The Gigometer www.gigometer.com The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org >>>> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >>>> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > http://www.canolacouncil.org/canola_oil_the_truth.aspx But have you been using oil from the plant obtained by traditional farming methods or from the genetically modified plant? Many countries will not accept GM plants, but my state government is allowing "trials" - quote marks because they are doing this knowing full well that the GM product will contaminate everyone else's crops. SignatureRob Bannister > But have you been using oil from the plant obtained by traditional > farming methods or from the genetically modified plant? Many countries > will not accept GM plants, but my state government is allowing "trials" > - quote marks because they are doing this knowing full well that the GM > product will contaminate everyone else's crops. According to the experts, canola was developed all naturally, and certainly I was using it in cooking before genetic modification was an issue. Which plants the stuff currently on the grocery shelves comes from, I don't know. The site says most of it comes from non-genetically modified plants. I also like the site's authors calm explanation that covalent bonds are not a Bad Thing. SignatureCheryl >>> I am assuming that the result of pillage is a batch of pills. I could >>> be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified rape, I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > was in the late 60s - I am still surprised when I find that people > weren't aware of it much more recently. In recent times, "rape" has been totally replaced with "canola" which does less violence to women. However, my spelling checker does not recognise the word. SignatureRob Bannister >> On 16 Jan 2010, Mike Lyle wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > could be wrong, but then when I first read about genetically modified > rape, I found it hard to believe too. Then we have the Sussex rapes. It is not entirely clear whether these were a Saxon idea or are in some way connected with William the Bastard. SignatureJames >On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote >> It's surprising that the route from London to Gloucester didn't >> pass through Oxford, crossing the Thames there. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Yup. Yes: if you were going via High Wycombe there'd be an awful lot of inconvenient up-and-downness (think of the old A40 up Dashwood Hill), unless you wanted to go as far north as Princes Risborough. Far more sensible to stick more or less in the Thames valley as far as Henley, after which Shillingford is the obvious next resting-place. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ On 16 Jan 2010, Wood Avens wrote >> On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thames valley as far as Henley, after which Shillingford is the > obvious next resting-place. Now, that raises an interesting point... The area near Wallingford originally had a lot of marshland, with some high points in the centre; significantly, the names of a couple of these end in "-ey", which means "island". The Roman road from Silchester to Dorchester does the usual straight-line thing: up the hill, down the hill, across the marsh, up the next hill, down the next hill, across the next marsh. As you point out, this seems counterintuitive: why not follow the river and stream valleys, instead of going straight over the hills? But if you turn it around and think of the best way to cross a mixed landscape, the high points are the good points and the valleys and low-lying areas are the obstacles. So yer average Roman road-builder stands on a hill; looks in the direction he wants to go; finds the next hill; and saya "right, boys: we're heading there -- we're going to build a road that gets us there in the shortest distance". In short, for early road-builders, hills are stepping stones, not obstacles. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 16 Jan 2010, Wood Avens wrote > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > In short, for early road-builders, hills are stepping stones, not > obstacles. Not only that, but IIRC, all neolithic age roads followed the crests, probably for safety reasons - you can see who or what is creeping up on you. SignatureRob Bannister >On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:09:22 GMT, HVS <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> >>On 16 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>(reputed to be in the 600s -- about the time that [St] Birinus came >>to Dorchester-on-Thames) On a technicality, a route from London to Gloucester through Oxford doesn't have any need to cross the Thames. >>A straight line from London to Gloucester passes through Abingdon; >>there's no obvious reason for the original main route to the west [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >sensible to stick more or less in the Thames valley as far as Henley, >after which Shillingford is the obvious next resting-place. The Thames was, by and large, the boundary between Wessex and Mercia. I don't know if that made the Thames valley a good or bad choice of route, but the Chilterns would have been firmly Mercian. Besides, the woods there were full of bodgers. SignaturePaul > The Thames was, by and large, the boundary between Wessex and Mercia. I > don't know if that made the Thames valley a good or bad choice of route, > but the Chilterns would have been firmly Mercian. Besides, the woods > there were full of bodgers. Well, you'd be sure of somewhere to sit down, then. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On Jan 16, 1:16 pm, "Jonathan Morton" <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: > This thread does, however, put me in mind of one of Bill Bryson's passages - > I think it must be in "Notes from a Small Island" - in which he claims that > within five minutes of arriving in any bar in England one will overhear an > argument about the best route by car from x to y. I remember the passage and was about to write the same thing, but this time I kept reading the thread. I think his point was that mentioning points X and Y in a pub was an infallible way to ensure at least a good half hour's conversation, including the invariable contributions of 'If you wanted to get from X to Y, you don't want to start from here...' and 'you should've started a week ago Tuesday'. His description of the 'lost' platforms at Manchester Piccadilly made me come over all nostalgic, as they are the ones I always end up using. Some things are eternal. best from Brussels, S. On 16 Jan 2010, tsuidf wrote > On Jan 16, 1:16 pm, "Jonathan Morton" ><jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > you don't want to start from here...' and 'you should've started > a week ago Tuesday'. I don't recall Bryson's riff on it, but that sounds more accurate. It's not that a spontaneous conversation will break out in a pub about the best route from X to Y -- it's that unless you want to hear it discussed to the point of thinking "Hey: I think I'll I'll break this glass and stick the shards into my ears; that sounds like fun", you're best advised to avoid raising the subject in the first place... SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed <snip> (Bryson is a writer) >I don't recall Bryson's riff on it, but that sounds more accurate. My understanding of "riff" is a quick series of notes a musician, especially a jazz musician, plays. Has it acquired a literary meaning? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > musician, especially a jazz musician, plays. Has it acquired a > literary meaning? I think so -- I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to use it to mean "his take on someting/playing with and idea". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I think so -- I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to use it to > mean "his take on someting/playing with and idea". Indeed - it sounds perfectly normal to me. It could for example be applied to a stand-up comedian who takes a basic idea and extemporises on it. SignatureDavid >> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >applied to a stand-up comedian who takes a basic idea and extemporises >on it. Some of what is written here in AUE could be called riffing. Someone picks up an idea, phrase, word or misspelling, plays with it and others join in. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > picks up an idea, phrase, word or misspelling, plays with it and > others join in. If so, we've changed the meaning of "riff". In rock music it's "a simple musical phrase repeated over and over" (OED). I'd like to think we in AUE are capable of a great deal more variation and improvisation. A riff is more like just writing AOL. SignatureJames >>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > AUE are capable of a great deal more variation and improvisation. A riff > is more like just writing AOL. I don't think it was us who changed it, but yes, "riff" doesn't mean the same in jazz/rock as it does in text/speech. Google's dictionary gives both meanings: 1. In jazz and rock music, a riff is a short repeated tune. 2. A riff is a short piece of speech or writing that develops a particular theme or idea. SignatureDavid >>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >2. A riff is a short piece of speech or writing that develops a >particular theme or idea. Yes. Extracts from: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/riff?r=66 1. Music A short rhythmic phrase, especially one that is repeated in improvisation. 2. A clever or inventive commentary or remark: "Those little riffs that had seemed to have such sparkle over drinks ... look all too embarrassing in cold print" (John Richardson). [Origin unknown.] 1 n. a short, repeated line of music played by a particular performer. : Jim just sat there and forgot his riff. 2. a digression while speaking. (From sense 1.) : If she didn't make so many riffs while she spoke, we could understand her better. Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions by Richard A. Spears.Fourth Edition. And with different meanings: 1. A member of any of several Berber peoples inhabiting Er Rif. 2. The Berber language of this people. Rif'fi·an adj. & n. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > 2. A riff is a short piece of speech or writing that develops a > particular theme or idea. Laura, way back, called some of my fanciful a.u.e. postings "riffs", and I probably thought the same myself. There's also the verb "to riff", and I've definitely heard or read references to somebody "riffing on" something in language. SignatureMike. >>>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I've definitely heard or read references to somebody "riffing on" > something in language. How very odd. I've always understood riff to mean improvisation around a theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the idea from. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > How very odd. I've always understood riff to mean improvisation around a > theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the > idea from. You probably improvised it. Regards Jonathan >>>>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the >idea from. I admit I'd always thought the same. But I went and asked David, who started talking about the difference between a riff and a hook, and nearly-but-not-quite played me some Cream tracks to illustrate the difference, and now I'm even more confused but on a higher level. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > nearly-but-not-quite played me some Cream tracks to illustrate the > difference, and now I'm even more confused but on a higher level. Did you get on to licks? Anyway, here's what Groves has to say about riff: "a short melodic ostinato which may be repeated either intact or varied to accommodate an underlying harmonic pattern". Get David to play you some Led Zeppelin to illustrate what Groves goes on to say: "In songs such as Whole Lotta Love and Immigrant Song the guitar and bass guitar repeat a simple riff that confirms the tonic throughout the verses. Longer, more complex riffs that are repeated in different keys are used in Black Dog and Heartbreaker. Kashmir is created entirely from a series of varied riffs and vamps, at times creating a dense, multi-layered texture. " SignatureJames > >How very odd. I've always understood riff to mean improvisation around a > >theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nearly-but-not-quite played me some Cream tracks to illustrate the > difference, and now I'm even more confused but on a higher level. Faulty dictionaries, some of which only seem to know the repetitive-guitar-phrase meaning, even though that is only one of several. As a verb, you'll hear it these days for imaginative flights of fancy, such as these two: ...One newly minted comedian riffed on physicists' habit of sitting around drinking coffee all day. "I'm thinking about building the LCC -- the large coffee collider," he said. and A couple weeks ago on "The Colbert Report," the comedian riffed on "the fantasy where a hysterical Glenn Beck tells his audience of desperate shut-ins through tears and spittle that vague unnamed enemies have failed them and that it's time to take angry action." (From which I conclude that riffs don't have to be funny.) The Merriam Webster 11th doesn't even have the short repetitive sort: Main Entry: 1 riff Function: noun Etymology: probably by shortening & alteration from refrain Date: 1935 1 : an ostinato phrase (as in jazz) typically supporting a solo improvisation; also : a piece based on such a phrase 2 : a rapid energetic often improvised verbal outpouring; especially : one that is part of a comic performance 3 : a succinct usually witty comment 4 : a distinct variation : take <a disturbing ... riff on the Cinderella story -- Daria Donnelly> Main Entry: 2 riff Function: intransitive verb Date: 1948 : to perform, deliver, or make use of a riff I think it's rather sad that what started off as a word of creative improvisation has become a word of dull repetition. A genius musician first thought of a particular musical line -- he riffed -- then his colleagues and the recording industry repeat this "riff" to death. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux <snip> > I think it's rather sad that what started off as a word of creative >improvisation has become a word of dull repetition. A genius musician >first thought of a particular musical line -- he riffed -- then his >colleagues and the recording industry repeat this "riff" to death. It is sad. Is it an example of the dumbing down of our language? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > The Merriam Webster 11th doesn't even have the short repetitive > sort: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 1 : an ostinato phrase (as in jazz) typically supporting a solo > improvisation; also : a piece based on such a phrase ostinato: a musical figure repeated persistently at the same pitch throughout a composition It's the short repetitive phrase *behind* the improvisation (or otherwise behind the vocals or melody). > 2 : a rapid energetic often improvised verbal outpouring; especially : > one that is part of a comic performance [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > first thought of a particular musical line -- he riffed -- then his > colleagues and the recording industry repeat this "riff" to death. I think you've got it backwards. First people wrote riffs to act as background. Then they started playing with those riffs and improvising variations, bringing them to the fore. The latter is what I would call "riffing on" a theme. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> How very odd. I've always understood riff to mean improvisation around a >> theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nearly-but-not-quite played me some Cream tracks to illustrate the > difference, and now I'm even more confused but on a higher level. Ah, well, there you go. I was planning to cite "Layla" as containing a classic riff, but I thought it might set Laura off. So I won't. SignatureDavid >>> How very odd. I've always understood riff to mean improvisation around a >>> theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ah, well, there you go. I was planning to cite "Layla" as containing a > classic riff, but I thought it might set Laura off. So I won't. <appreciation> SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > and now I'm even more confused but on a higher level. I really loved that. Happens to me a lot here; used to happen to me in lectures too. SignatureRob Bannister > >>>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > theme and now I find that it doesn't mean that. I wonder where I got the > idea from. Theme, improvisation on a theme..what's the diff? -- Jerry Friedman >>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >2. A riff is a short piece of speech or writing that develops a >particular theme or idea. That answers my question. The wonders of Google. I never noticed their built-in dictionary until today. A double thank you to you. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > think we in AUE are capable of a great deal more variation and > improvisation. A riff is more like just writing AOL. That's the noun. The verb is to play around with a riff and vary it in an improvisational way. It's the slight variation that has a big effect that's the essence of riffing on something. Interestingly, one of the things I hadn't realized until I started learning bass (guitar) is that bass players don't have "riffs", they (we?) have "grooves". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If you think health care is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |expensive now, wait until you see Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >Interestingly, one of the things I hadn't realized until I started >learning bass (guitar) is that bass players don't have "riffs", they >(we?) have "grooves". MIDI arrangers use "grooves" as well...I'm not sure I have this concept exactly right, but you take a piece that's arranged on a square, even beat, and apply a groove to it, which subtly alters the timing of each attack in a certain way...a different groove does the same thing but with different alterations...the result is that the same basic tune can be performed with different "personalities"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >in an improvisational way. It's the slight variation that has a big >effect that's the essence of riffing on something. <Ponders> Was Brahms riffing when he composed his _Variations on a theme by Paganini in A minor_? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>That's the noun. The verb is to play around with a riff and vary it >>in an improvisational way. It's the slight variation that has a big >>effect that's the essence of riffing on something. > > <Ponders> Was Brahms riffing when he composed his _Variations on a > theme by Paganini in A minor_? I think that a modern musician would say "yes", although there's some notion of (at least apparently) composing the variations in real-time. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!" Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Yes, but I didn't tell them that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out," (650)857-7572 |said Susan. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ On Jan 18, 4:04 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:46:47 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > <Ponders> Was Brahms riffing when he composed his _Variations on a theme > by Paganini in A minor_? No, but he would have been if he'd improvised with his _Jam on a Riff by Paganini in A Minor_. -- Jerry Friedman >>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > picks up an idea, phrase, word or misspelling, plays with it and others > join in. What a spiffing, absolutely riffing Moment in the AUE archives. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>> On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What a spiffing, absolutely riffing > Moment in the AUE archives. Ah, more STS. On balance, I think the Ascot Gavotte beats Topol. Thank you, Peter, I can now retire peacefully to bed. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >On 17 Jan 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I think so -- I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to use it to >mean "his take on someting/playing with and idea". I'm sure I've seen references to bloggers riffing on a subject. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >On Jan 16, 1:16 pm, "Jonathan Morton" ><jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >of 'If you wanted to get from X to Y, you don't want to start from >here...' and 'you should've started a week ago Tuesday'. This pub talk is a convenient spot to drop in the remark that one of the old O.S. maps I was looking at to trace the roads around Wallingford bears, handwritten in red ink by a previous owner, pub names alongside many of the villages and smaller towns. Some of them I can vouch for immediately; the others demand research. SignaturePaul > This pub talk is a convenient spot to drop in the remark that one of the > old O.S. maps I was looking at to trace the roads around Wallingford > bears, handwritten in red ink by a previous owner, pub names alongside > many of the villages and smaller towns. Some of them I can vouch for > immediately; the others demand research. Research, eh? We're very good at that sort of research in aue. An OxBerks boink perhaps? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >Paul Wolff wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Research, eh? We're very good at that sort of research in aue. An >OxBerks boink perhaps? I did start to comment about a rolling boink opportunity, but thought better of it before posting. SignaturePaul >> This pub talk is a convenient spot to drop in the remark that one of >> the old O.S. maps I was looking at to trace the roads around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Research, eh? We're very good at that sort of research in aue. An > OxBerks boink perhaps? Berks is/are another good example of a capitonym. Rather a pub in Berks than berks in a pub. SignatureJames Jonathan Morton: > This thread does, however, put me in mind of one of Bill Bryson's passages - > I think it must be in "Notes from a Small Island" - in which he claims that > within five minutes of arriving in any bar in England one will overhear an > argument about the best route by car from x to y. This reminds me of two scenes in movies, both British. One was in "Notting Hill" and, from memory, it ends with the line "I will decide the route! (James Bond never has to put up with this kind of sh.t.)" The other was in "A Run for your Money", which is a 1949 comedy about two men from Hafoduwchbenceubwllymarchogcoch who've never been very far from the place but win a trip to London, where, of course, they promptly get separated from each other and the man who's supposed to be guiding them. Rather too much of the movie is based on Welsh stereotypes, I think, but it has its moments. And one of those moments is a scene on a tube train, where one of the men innocently asks for directions, and, ah, discussion ensues. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | Thus, "plain english" is the same as msb@vex.net | "near-field spin". --Carl Ginnow My text in this article is in the public domain. > On 15 Jan 2010, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > ways -- "...by centuries in which it retained a largely-unchanged > rural character", say -- seem a lot more awkward to me. I see nothing wrong with your choice but, if you wanted to change it, there is also the related and only slightly loaded "rusticity". > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Cheers, Harvey > CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed Another even clunkier and counter-intuitive candidate would be "bucolic". I am probably raking up old coals here but I can remember that a dozen or more years ago Word insisted that "liaison" was spelled "liason" and that when I typed in "materiel" that I meant "material".deshr >> On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Another even clunkier and counter-intuitive candidate would be > "bucolic". But he wants an abstract noun: bucolicity? No, any word ending in "-city" would be out of place here. > I am probably raking up old coals here but I can remember that a > dozen or more years ago Word insisted that "liaison" was spelled > "liason" and that when I typed in "materiel" that I meant > "material".deshr Maybe you had an 18th-century version of Word. In those days "liason" was a term in cookery that meant a "thickening for sauces, consisting chiefly of the yolks of eggs": 1797: "Make ready a liason of two or three eggs and cream, with a little minced parsley and nutmeg." The French word still has that meaning. SignatureJames >>> On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > The French word still has that meaning. The term was still being used in cookery books published later than that although the spelling varies. And I'm fairly sure I've heard it quite recently from professional cooks. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) [...] >>> I am probably raking up old coals here but I can remember that a >>> dozen or more years ago Word insisted that "liaison" was spelled [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that although the spelling varies. And I'm fairly sure I've heard it > quite recently from professional cooks. Oui, chef! SignatureMike. Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:30:08 -0800 (PST) from Steev Sauvage <steevsauvage@googlemail.com>: > > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Another even clunkier and counter-intuitive candidate would be > "bucolic". But that's an adjective, isn't it? What would the noun be - "bucolicity"? Ewwww! SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... Stan Brown filted: >Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:30:08 -0800 (PST) from Steev Sauvage ><steevsauvage@googlemail.com>: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But that's an adjective, isn't it? What would the noun be - >"bucolicity"? Ewwww! I vote for "bucolia"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:00:34 GMT from HVS <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: > Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun for > "the state of being rural", what would come to mind? > > The only other candidate I can think of would be "ruralness", but > that looks much odder (and clunkier) to me than "rurality". I'm no fonder than you of "ruralness". I would try to find away to rewrite the sentence. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > On 15 Jan 2010, Stan Brown wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Fair enough, but I'm curious -- if you needed to find a noun for "the > state of being rural", what would come to mind? "Urbanity" doesn't mean "the state of being urban", however. Signatureathel > Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:16:31 GMT from HVS > <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > > To me the omission seems quite reasonable, and the word seems odd. You can let the program choose what to replace it with: reality, frugality, brutality Any of these would be appropriate in the right context. SignatureJames On 15 Jan 2010, James Hogg wrote >> Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:16:31 GMT from HVS >> <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Any of these would be appropriate in the right context. Hmmm... That, for me, would be "an entirely different context": none of those strike me as any remotely appropriate as a neutral term to describe the appearance and character of a rural landscape. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. Doesn't much like cultchie either. >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > > Doesn't much like cultchie either. Not even if you spell it right? SignatureJames > >> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > > > Doesn't much like cultchie either. > > Not even if you spell it right? It? As far as I know, cultchie, is how to spell cultchie. > -- > James >>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. >>> Doesn't much like cultchie either. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > As far as I know, cultchie, is how to spell cultchie. The OED, COD and Slanguage (Dictionary of Irish Slang) all have "culchie" as the headword. SignatureJames > >>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > >>> Doesn't much like cultchie either. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > James Just noticed the same elsewhere. I stand corrected. My first attept didn't look right, and was incorrect. Out of frustration I had copied and pasted what looked better and then double checked and all looked fine, except that the number of sites mentioning it were far less than I had expected. Still, it doesn't like "culchie" either. >>>>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit >>>>>> odd. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > fine, except that the number of sites mentioning it were far less > than I had expected. Still, it doesn't like "culchie" either. Not even if you set the language as: English (Ireland). A sad omission. The OED gives the etymology as: "App. alteration of Kiltimagh, Ir. Coillte Mach (older Mághach), the name of a country town in Co. Mayo." I have always assumed that it came from "agricultural", an assumption that receives some support from the entry in "Slanguage": "word coined in University College Galway c. 1940s to refer to students of agriculture". SignatureJames >>>>>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit >>>>>>> odd. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >"word coined in University College Galway c. 1940s to refer to students >of agriculture". That's what I've always thought, and I lived in County Mayo for a number of years. I'm not convinced that "culchie" does not derive from "agriculture", it makes so much sense, for two reasons. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE James Hogg wrote, in <hiq9mj$pdl$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:46:45 +0100: > >>>> Word's dictionary doesn't like "rurality". Seems a bit odd. > >>> Doesn't much like cultchie either. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The OED, COD and Slanguage (Dictionary of Irish Slang) > all have "culchie" as the headword. That's the way I see it spelt here in Ireland. Perhaps cultchie has something to do with cult membership. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >James Hogg wrote, in <hiq9mj$pdl$1@news.eternal-september.org> > on Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:46:45 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Perhaps cultchie has something to do with cult membership. Or oyster beds. OED: culching, cultching, vbl. n The practice of strewing an oyster-bed with culch. culch, cultch 2. spec. The mass of stones, old shells, and other hard material, of which an oyster-bed is formed. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> James Hogg wrote, in <hiq9mj$pdl$1@news.eternal-september.org> >> on Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:46:45 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > 2. spec. The mass of stones, old shells, and other hard material, > of which an oyster-bed is formed. See James's "agrivultural" --sorry, "agricultural"! I'd never met the word before, and wondered if it was from Hindi "kutcha", which is the opposite of "pukka". SignatureMike. > See James's "agrivultural" --sorry, "agricultural"! I'd never met the word > before, and wondered if it was from Hindi "kutcha", which is the opposite > of "pukka". My version of Word doesn't like "misspelt". In similar vein, the predictive text feature on my mobile phone cannot manage the word "predictive". Word also takes exception to "valuer" - a perfectly respectable profession, which used to have its own Incorporated Society (also including the Auctioneers), now merged with the RICS. Regards Jonathan |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.