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re: colon

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Masa - 16 Jan 2010 13:30 GMT
The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
non-natives, I guess.
I found a text on the net that gives us an explanation on usage of
colon, using a quiz, as follows:

Incorrect:Technology never exists in a social vacuum, it is embodied
in products,processes, and people.
Correct:Technology never exists in a social vacuum: it is embodied
inproducts, processes, and people.
Alternatively:Technology never exists in a social vacuum and is
embodied inproducts, processes, and people.

Reading this, I wondered if its correct answer was really true,
because I thought
although it picked up "colon" as correct, why it shouldn't be "semi-
colon".

Semi-colon seems more preferable, if those two sentences could be
connected with "AND".

What do you think?
Jonathan Morton - 16 Jan 2010 13:58 GMT
> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
> non-natives, I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Incorrect: Technology never exists in a social vacuum, it is embodied
> in products,processes, and people.

That's incorrect, because two sentences have been linked by a comma.

> Correct: Technology never exists in a social vacuum: it is embodied
> in products, processes, and people.

That's not a bad example for a colon. The colon tells the reader that there
is a logical link between the sections before and after it. In your
particular case the colon says "I've just told you technology doesn't exist
in a social vacuum, and if you stick with me I'm going to explain that,
conversely, it is embodied...". So you will find a colon if the sense
demands "rather" or "instead" or something like that.

A similar use will be found if you imagine "namely" after the colon. For
example, I've just told you something about colons: that they're quite
useful if properly used.

> Alternatively: Technology never exists in a social vacuum and is
> embodied inproducts, processes, and people.

I don't like this, because the "and" is illogical. "But" would be more
logical if you were going to express the sentence in that manner.

Regards

Jonathan
Skitt - 16 Jan 2010 19:57 GMT
>> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
>> non-natives, I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> that.
> A similar use will be found if you imagine "namely" after the colon.

Hmm, I wouldn't do that.  The colon takes the place of a "namely".

> For example, I've just told you something about colons: that they're
> quite useful if properly used.

I would eliminate the "that" after the colon.

I often use a dash (Ger.: Gedankenstrich) instead of a colon in sentences
such as the one being discussed, but that may be a leftover from my early
education in Latvia and Germany.

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Skitt (AmE)

Jonathan Morton - 17 Jan 2010 14:50 GMT
>>> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
>>> non-natives, I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Hmm, I wouldn't do that.  The colon takes the place of a "namely".

That's why I said "imagine".

>> For example, I've just told you something about colons: that they're
>> quite useful if properly used.
>
> I would eliminate the "that" after the colon.

Yes, I agree it works fine with or without.

> I often use a dash (Ger.: Gedankenstrich) instead of a colon in sentences
> such as the one being discussed, but that may be a leftover from my early
> education in Latvia and Germany.

I sometimes do the same - though more often I use the dash parenthetically -
but from a BrE background.

I do find myself fighting against the use of a colon immediately followed by
a dash - pure punctuation tautology.

Regards

Jonathan
Skitt - 17 Jan 2010 18:55 GMT

>>>> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
>>>> non-natives, I guess.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> That's why I said "imagine".

Yes, but you said "*after* the colon".


>>> For example, I've just told you something about colons: that they're
>>> quite useful if properly used.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I do find myself fighting against the use of a colon immediately
> followed by a dash - pure punctuation tautology.

I agree with your sentiment.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Eric Walker - 18 Jan 2010 05:16 GMT
[...]

>> I do find myself fighting against the use of a colon immediately
>> followed by a dash - pure punctuation tautology.
>
> I agree with your sentiment.

The modern antipathy for combining other punctuation marks with dashes is
just that: modern.  There definitely are times when that prescribed  
avoidance is a pain in the elbow.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

R H Draney - 18 Jan 2010 07:21 GMT
Eric Walker filted:

>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>just that: modern.  There definitely are times when that prescribed  
>avoidance is a pain in the elbow.

How do you feel about combining punctuation marks in other ways?...say, a colon
followed by a hyphen and then a closing parenthesis?...r

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Eric Walker - 18 Jan 2010 13:07 GMT
[...]

> How do you feel about combining punctuation marks in other ways?...say,
> a colon followed by a hyphen and then a closing parenthesis?...r

In the use of dashes, my preference, were not modern sentiment so
strongly opposed, would be to allow certain other stops to occasionally
follow the second dash of a pair with a comma or even a semi-colon,
depending on particular circumstances.  Whether such marks can sensibly
precede a dash is not something I want to venture an opinion on, because
I am very poor at conjuring examples of things, and can only try to judge
examples set before me.  But given my druthers, I'd not impose a flat ban
on combining dashes with other marks.  On the occasions when the form
screams out for such a use, I at least fall back on substituting
parentheses for the dashes, which usually makes a minor but nonetheless
annoying shift in feeling.

The Chicago, for what that's worth, states that:

"If the context calls for a dash where a comma would ordinarily
separate two clauses, the comma should be omitted:

 'Because the data had not yet been completely analyzed--the reason for
 this will be discussed later--the publication of the report was
 delayed.'"

That might be a place where a dash-comma structure would work were it
permitted these days.

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Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

James Hogg - 18 Jan 2010 13:12 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> That might be a place where a dash-comma structure would work were it
>  permitted these days.

I seem to remember combining a dash with a comma when I was writing my
thesis decades ago. I don't think I would do so nowadays. I think it looks
very German. For some reason I find it looks even stranger with an
American-style em-dash than with a European en-dash.

Signature

James

Adam Funk - 18 Jan 2010 20:29 GMT
> In the use of dashes, my preference, were not modern sentiment so
> strongly opposed, would be to allow certain other stops to occasionally
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> That might be a place where a dash-comma structure would work were it
> permitted these days.

I prefer Sterne's Manual of Style.

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Don Phillipson - 16 Jan 2010 18:25 GMT
> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
> non-natives, I guess. . . .

If true, this worry seems unnecessary.   Many people write
English just as they wish without using colons or semicolons;
when readers encounter them, their function in the sentence
is usually obvious.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

John Varela - 17 Jan 2010 00:19 GMT
> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
> non-natives, I guess.
> I found a text on the net that gives us an explanation on usage of
> colon, using a quiz, as follows:

A semicolon replaces a conjunction in linking two clauses; a colon
ends a sentence and promises that there is something to follow: an
example, a list of things, an explanation, etc.

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John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

Mark Brader - 17 Jan 2010 01:10 GMT
"Masa" asks about:
> Incorrect:Technology never exists in a social vacuum, it is embodied
> in products,processes, and people.

It is common in informal usage to use a comma this way, especially when
the sentence is very short.  "I never do, it's too hot."

> Correct:Technology never exists in a social vacuum: it is embodied
> inproducts, processes, and people.

The colon is correct, but I think I would use a semicolon.  Certainly
it's correct either way.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto           "For want of a bit the loop was lost..."
msb@vex.net                                            -- Steve Summit

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Eric Walker - 17 Jan 2010 10:56 GMT
> The usage of colon and semi-colon is a constant source of worry for
> non-natives, I guess.

The semi-colon is used when we want a weightier separation of ideas than
the comma provides, but less of a one than a period (making two
sentences) would make:

 1. John likes these sorts of affairs; Mary doesn't.

Now that could be rendered in at least two other ways :

 2. John likes these sorts of affairs, but Mary doesn't.
 3. John likes these sorts of affairs.  Mary doesn't.

None of the three is wrong, and none especially correct: it is a matter
of what the writer wants the reader to feel.  In #3, the break is quite
heavy: it produces a tone of sharpness, terseness, bleakness.  It might
fit well into a sort of hard-boiled-dick tale.  In #2, we have a sense of
babbling, of something that is not in sheer grammatical terms a run-on
sentence, but that sounds like an old lady who has started talking and
can't stop.

The colon is used to introduce a statement that expands on or explains
what went before it: in essence, it is the delivery of goods invoiced in
the first part of the sentence.  I have used it in that way several times
in this post.

Note, incidentally, that a colon does not end a sentence any more than a
semi-colon does: what follows is still part of the same sentence.  That
remains so even when, for clarity, the rest of the sentence is broken out
as a list, perhaps even a list with bullets or numbering, and thus such
lists should be accordingly punctuated.

For example, I might list the marks we are discussing:

  . the comma;
  . the semi-colon;
  . the colon; and
  . the period.

Note that despite the indenting and bulleting (which could as well be
numbering), we still insert punctuation.

That last also incidentally shows another use of the semi-colon: it can  
replace the comma in serial listings, and is especially useful in thta
capacity when the elements of the listing are each complex (and
especially if they contain commas).

  I like ham and eggs; bacon; grilled-cheese sandwiches; and peanut
  butter and jelly sandwiches.

  The various flags were of many colors: red and green; white and blue;
  red, yellow, and green; and the good old red, white, and blue.

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

 
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