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AmE Irregular Verbs

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Ricardo - 16 Jan 2010 19:56 GMT
Can anyone give me a link to a reliable list of AmE Irregular Verbs
somewhere on the net. I have certainly searched the net already and found a
few lists of the sort but they kind of tend to present both BrE and AmE
variants of the verbs in an inconsistent and confusing way, at least from
the ESL student's point of view. I'd love to have a list with AmE verbs
only. Thanks for all your help.
Regards,
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Ricardo

TMS - 16 Jan 2010 22:43 GMT
http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html

> Can anyone give me a link to a reliable list of AmE Irregular Verbs
> somewhere on the net. I have certainly searched the net already and found
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> only. Thanks for all your help.
> Regards,
Ricardo - 17 Jan 2010 10:24 GMT
> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html

Thank you so much, TMS. This is definitely the best list of irregular verb I
have come across so far. However, some verbs in your list are also presented
with the BrE variants like eg. "dream - dreamed, dreamt - ...", "dwell -
dwelt, dwelled - ...", "dive - dove, dived - ...", etc. I guess that the AmE
variant is always the first one given, right. The other one, after the
comma, is the BrE form of the verb, or am I missing something here?
All in all, thank you very much again. I'd appreciate a lot your comment to
my doubts! :)
Regards,
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Ricardo

Prai Jei - 17 Jan 2010 12:15 GMT
Ricardo set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

>> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> comment to my doubts! :)
> Regards,

BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t) rather
than the "weak" form (add -ed). A notable exception is "dived" which is
more usual over here, presumably to avoid confusion with the bird. "Dwelt"
is more usual than "dwelled", similarly "spelt" instead of "spelled", and
for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.

Minor variants between BrE and AmE is when to double the final consonant,
BrE preferring to double e.g. "travelled" for AmE "traveled".

Incorrect strong forms e.g. "brung", "bruck", or the use of a weak form
where a strong one is usual e.g. "runned", are used on both sides of the
Pond to convey a sense of uneducated ignorance.
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Stan Brown - 17 Jan 2010 13:42 GMT
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:15:58 +0000 from Prai Jei
<pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>:
>  and
> for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.

Really?  With a "p"?  I've seen "dreamt" in books, but...

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 17 Jan 2010 14:14 GMT
>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:15:58 +0000 from Prai Jei
><pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>:
>>  and
>> for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.
>
>Really?  With a "p"?  I've seen "dreamt" in books, but...

"Dreamt" is the correct spelling. I Googled for "dreampt" and discovered
that some people use that spelling.

The results of this search for words ending in "mt" suggest that
"dreamt" is the only English word (in common use?) ending in "mt"
http://www.onelook.com/?w=*mt

There are familiar words ending with "mpt": attempt, contempt, exempt,
prompt. Those words are often, in BrE, spoken with the "p" silent.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Stan Brown - 19 Jan 2010 11:04 GMT
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:14:46 +0000 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<mail@peterduncanson.net>:
> "Dreamt" is the correct spelling. I Googled for "dreampt" and discovered
> that some people use that spelling.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> There are familiar words ending with "mpt": attempt, contempt, exempt,
> prompt. Those words are often, in BrE, spoken with the "p" silent.

That seems quite difficult to me.  The lips must be together for the
"m", and and as they part to let the tongue and teeth make the "t", a
"p" seems to pop out of its own accord.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 19 Jan 2010 11:11 GMT
>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:14:46 +0000 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)
><mail@peterduncanson.net>:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>"m", and and as they part to let the tongue and teeth make the "t", a
>"p" seems to pop out of its own accord.

Maybe, but only the hint of a "p". Too much "p" and there is then a
difficult transition from "p" to "t".

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

James Hogg - 19 Jan 2010 11:55 GMT
>> Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:14:46 +0000 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>> <mail@peterduncanson.net>:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Maybe, but only the hint of a "p". Too much "p" and there is then a
> difficult transition from "p" to "t".

I wonder how much we are influenced by the spelling in what we say and
even what we hear in cases like this. Obviously there are or have been
people who find it impossible to pronounce "mt" without that hint of a
"p". When the unstressed medial vowel was lost in Old English "æmetig"
and the "mt" came together, the result was "empty", with what the OED
calls a "euphonic p". Place names combining "ham" and "tun" resulted in
"Hampton". I'm sure many people elide the "p" when they say words like this.

(In Scotland the cluster "mpt" was simplified in a different way,
resulting in "empy". Is that Reg Empey?)

More recent compounds that have brought "mt" together seem to manage
without a "p". Can anyone hear a "p" in "sometimes" or "boomtown"?

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James

R H Draney - 19 Jan 2010 23:30 GMT
BrE filted:

>>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:14:46 +0000 from Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>><mail@peterduncanson.net>:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Maybe, but only the hint of a "p". Too much "p" and there is then a
>difficult transition from "p" to "t".

The transition from tea to pee is much easier...one might even call it
inexorable....r

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James Hogg - 17 Jan 2010 14:16 GMT
> Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:15:58 +0000 from Prai Jei
> <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>:
>> and for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.
>
> Really?  With a "p"?  I've seen "dreamt" in books, but...

You can see "dreampt" in Google Books, both British and American, but I
wouldn't recommend anyone to use it today.

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James

Ricardo - 17 Jan 2010 14:43 GMT
>>...
> BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t) rather
> than the "weak" form (add -ed). A notable exception is "dived" which is
> more usual over here,
Over here, meaning whereabouts - AmE or BrE speaking place?

> presumably to avoid confusion with the bird. "Dwelt"
Yeah, nice explanation :)

> is more usual than "dwelled", similarly "spelt" instead of "spelled", and
> for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> where a strong one is usual e.g. "runned", are used on both sides of the
> Pond to convey a sense of uneducated ignorance.
Thanks for your elaborate response, but I am still guessing which variant is
which while looking at the list of irregular verbs posted by TMS:
http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
My question is simple: on this list, is the variant on the left side of a
comma AmE one as opposed to the other one on the right side being more like
BrE form?
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Ricardo

Jonathan Morton - 17 Jan 2010 15:08 GMT
> BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t) rather
> than the "weak" form (add -ed). A notable exception is "dived" which is
> more usual over here, presumably to avoid confusion with the bird. "Dwelt"
> is more usual than "dwelled", similarly "spelt" instead of "spelled", and
> for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.

Sometimes there are different vowel shifts, though - leading to two strong
forms.

Two that spring to mind are the BrE forms "shrank" and "spat". That film
about the kids reveals that the AmE strong past of "shrink" is "shrunk", and
I learnt from this group that "spit" is the past as well as the present in
leftpondia.

No doubt there are others.

Regards

Jonathan
HVS - 17 Jan 2010 15:14 GMT
On 17 Jan 2010, Jonathan Morton wrote

>> BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or
>> t) rather than the "weak" form (add -ed). A notable exception
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> No doubt there are others.

"Span" and "spun" are another pair;  both used to be respectable, but
I think "span" is now seldom used.

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CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Jonathan Morton - 17 Jan 2010 16:53 GMT
> "Span" and "spun" are another pair;  both used to be respectable, but
> I think "span" is now seldom used.

I would say that both are used in BrE. I always use "span" but I may be in a
minority.

Still, there's always:

"When Adam delved and Eve spun,
who was then... oh, no, that won't work".
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 17 Jan 2010 17:40 GMT
>> "Span" and "spun" are another pair;  both used to be respectable, but
>> I think "span" is now seldom used.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>"When Adam delved and Eve spun,
>who was then... oh, no, that won't work".

It will work if the unmentioned word is spoken with an indistinct final
vowel, as it very often is.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2010 15:35 GMT
On Jan 17, 10:08 am, "Jonathan Morton"
<jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t) rather
> > than the "weak" form (add -ed). A notable exception is "dived" which is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I learnt from this group that "spit" is the past as well as the present in
> leftpondia.

Shrunk and shrank are both heard here in the US.

Your statement about "spit" surprised me, but Webster's apparently
agrees that "spit" can be used for the past-tense. I don't recall ever
having heard that.  Webster's also lists "spat", which is what I'm
familiar with.
Stan Brown - 19 Jan 2010 11:05 GMT
Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:08:45 -0000 from Jonathan Morton
<jonathan.mortonbutignorethispart@btinternet.com>:
> That film
> about the kids reveals that the AmE strong past of "shrink" is "shrunk",

The strong past is "shrank"; "shrunk" is the past participle.  At
least, so i've always heard it.

The film title "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" was intended as a joke, I
believe.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

Mark Brader - 19 Jan 2010 21:21 GMT
Jonathan Morton:
>> That film the kids reveals that the AmE strong past of "shrink"
>> is "shrunk",

Stan Brown:
> The film title "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" was intended as a joke,
> I believe.

If this was known to be true, I would expect it to be mentioned in
the IMDB's trivia entry for the movie; it isn't.

I think it's just another one of those forms that are condemned by
believers in "proper English" but also fairly widely used.
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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 19 Jan 2010 23:57 GMT
> Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:08:45 -0000 from Jonathan Morton
> <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The strong past is "shrank"; "shrunk" is the past participle.  At
> least, so i've always heard it.

Webster's seems to admit "shrank" or "shrunk" as the preterite, and
"shrunk" or "shrunken" as the past participle:

Inflected Form(s): shrank  \ˈshraŋk, ˈsraŋk\ or shrunk \ˈshrəŋk, ˈsrəŋk
\; shrunk or shrunk·en
Joe Fineman - 20 Jan 2010 22:14 GMT
> Webster's seems to admit "shrank" or "shrunk" as the preterite, and
> "shrunk" or "shrunken" as the past participle:
>
> Inflected Form(s): shrank \ˈshraŋk, ˈsraŋk\ or shrunk \ˈshrəŋk,
> ˈsrəŋk \; shrunk or shrunk·en

Likewise, says the AHD, the preterite of "sink" is either "sank" or
"sunk"; that of "sing" is either "sang" or "sung"; and it's either
"spit, spat, spat" or "spit, spit, spit".  Such variations are pretty
common.
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Garrett Wollman - 17 Jan 2010 18:08 GMT
>BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t)

Only one of the things you mention is a symptom of an OE strong verb.
Verbs with -t participles in BrE are often weak verbs with a
pronunciation spelling.  (But note that "dream/dreamt" does have a
vowel change that "dream/dreamed" does not.  OED2 says it is first
attested in the 13th centrury; one would expect a verb of that date to
be weak.  "dreamt" is first attested in 1592.)

-GAWollman

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R H Draney - 17 Jan 2010 20:38 GMT
Garrett Wollman filted:

>Verbs with -t participles in BrE are often weak verbs with a
>pronunciation spelling.  (But note that "dream/dreamt" does have a
>vowel change that "dream/dreamed" does not.  OED2 says it is first
>attested in the 13th centrury; one would expect a verb of that date to
>be weak.  "dreamt" is first attested in 1592.)

Could the original "dreamed" have been bisyllabic?...r

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James Hogg - 17 Jan 2010 21:24 GMT
> Garrett Wollman filted:
>> Verbs with -t participles in BrE are often weak verbs with a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Could the original "dreamed" have been bisyllabic?...r

Weak verbs in Old English could go like "fremman", past tense "fremede"
(originally three syllables but losing the final -e at some stage) or
like "dêman", past tense "dêmde" (originally two syllables and losing
the final -e). The word for "dream" is not recorded in Old English, but
if it existed it probably went like "dêman". It may be a loan from Old
Norse, where the past tense is "dreymdi". Although it could be
spelt/spelled "dremyd, dremed" in Middle English it was almost certainly
a monosyllable, although poets could make it two syllables if they needed.

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James

Steve Hayes - 18 Jan 2010 04:38 GMT
>>BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>attested in the 13th centrury; one would expect a verb of that date to
>be weak.  "dreamt" is first attested in 1592.)

One that doesn't seem to be used much in AmE is "spelt".

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R H Draney - 18 Jan 2010 07:23 GMT
Steve Hayes filted:

>>Verbs with -t participles in BrE are often weak verbs with a
>>pronunciation spelling.  (But note that "dream/dreamt" does have a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>One that doesn't seem to be used much in AmE is "spelt".

Unless one is a cereal killer....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Pat Durkin - 18 Jan 2010 15:20 GMT
> Steve Hayes filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Unless one is a cereal killer....r

Another reason we don't wear those skirts that the Scots wear.  We
would be kilt.
Stan Brown - 19 Jan 2010 11:07 GMT
Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:38:43 +0200 from Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net>:

> >>BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> One that doesn't seem to be used much in AmE is "spelt".

John Dewey (or Dui, as he spelt it), tried to get the public to
change to "dropt" and "spelt", and he used those spellings
consistently, but they never caught on.

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James Silverton - 19 Jan 2010 13:42 GMT
Stan  wrote  on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:07:36 -0500:

> Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:38:43 +0200 from Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> One that doesn't seem to be used much in AmE is "spelt".

> John Dewey (or Dui, as he spelt it), tried to get the public
> to change to "dropt" and "spelt", and he used those spellings
> consistently, but they never caught on.

Not "dropt" perhaps but "spelt" seems common enough.

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Potomac, Maryland

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Stan Brown - 20 Jan 2010 03:40 GMT
Tue, 19 Jan 2010 08:42:07 -0500 from James Silverton
<not.jim.silverton@verizon.net>:

>  Stan  wrote  on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:07:36 -0500:

> > John Dewey (or Dui, as he spelt it), tried to get the public
> > to change to "dropt" and "spelt", and he used those spellings
> > consistently, but they never caught on.
>
> Not "dropt" perhaps but "spelt" seems common enough.

In BrE, mayhap, but he was an American and his own people rejected
his spelling reforms.

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Joe Fineman - 19 Jan 2010 23:15 GMT
> John Dewey (or Dui, as he spelt it), tried to get the public to
> change to "dropt" and "spelt", and he used those spellings
> consistently, but they never caught on.

Isn't that Melville (or Melvil, as he spelt it) Dewey?
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Stan Brown - 20 Jan 2010 03:43 GMT
Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:15:52 -0500 from Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net>:

> > John Dewey (or Dui, as he spelt it), tried to get the public to
> > change to "dropt" and "spelt", and he used those spellings
> > consistently, but they never caught on.
>
> Isn't that Melville (or Melvil, as he spelt it) Dewey?

You're right.  Thanks!

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Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 00:37 GMT
>> BrE tends to use the "strong" form (vowel shift and/or add n or t)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -GAWollman

What about "leant/leaned"? I suspect there may be more like this.

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Rob Bannister

Steve Hayes - 18 Jan 2010 04:36 GMT
>Ricardo set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>is more usual than "dwelled", similarly "spelt" instead of "spelled", and
>for "dream" the spelling "dreampt" is also found.

Another exception is "snuck", which I believe started in AmE.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2010 14:40 GMT
> >http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> variant is always the first one given, right. The other one, after the
> comma, is the BrE form of the verb, or am I missing something here?

The ones you mention are all acceptable AmE.  Some strike me as pretty
uncommon (dwelt is one I rarely here), but for most of the multiple-
option conjugations all of the variants seem pretty common to me.  As
a native AmE speaker, I couldn't tell you without research whether
dreamed or dreamt is more common (either as a past tense or past
participle), likewise sprang or sprung.

Webster's contains all of the quoted variants as acceptable, without
flagging any of them as BrE or archaic.  There are occasional notes
like:

"In the United States dived and dove are both widespread in speech as
past tense and past participle, with dove less common than dived in
the south Midland area, and dived less common than dove in the
Northern and north Midland areas. In writing, the past tense dived is
usual in British English and somewhat more common in American English.
Dove seems relatively rare as a past participle in writing."

Some of the variants are nearly always used when paired with other
words.  It would be unidiomatic to speak of a cloven palette or cleft
hooves, despite both cleft and cloven being fine conjugations of
cleave.  Sometimes rhyming or otherwise coordinating with surrounding
words is the deciding factor in which variant to use:  "Smelled" is
more common than "smelt", but if you're discussing the passing of gas
every schoolboy will tell you that "the one who smelt it dealt it".
And some are more common in certain kinds of settings--"pled" is used
almost invariably by lawyers, while non-legal formal generally writing
prefers "pleaded" (though "pled" is gaining popularity).
Ricardo - 17 Jan 2010 15:07 GMT
>> ...
> The ones you mention are all acceptable AmE.  Some strike me as pretty
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> almost invariably by lawyers, while non-legal formal generally writing
> prefers "pleaded" (though "pled" is gaining popularity).

Thank you so much for your reply. It looks like life is complicated and I
will never get is as simple as I thought :) However, you shocked me with the
possibility of using "dreamt" in AmE. I have been more than sure that
"dreamed" is a kind of hallmark of AmE as opposed to BrE. Now it seems that
it's so relative making the life of ESL student more complicated. I wonder
thought if there are polls organized in terms of what percentage of American
population uses which of the variants. This would be of great help to
non-native speakers so they could stick with the more popular variant.
Signature

Ricardo

Chuck Riggs - 17 Jan 2010 15:35 GMT
>> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>my doubts! :)
>Regards,

There are far more similarities between AmE and BrE than differences,
Ricardo.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Ricardo - 17 Jan 2010 16:00 GMT
>>> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>> Thank you so much, TMS. This is definitely the best list of irregular
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> There are far more similarities between AmE and BrE than differences,
> Ricardo.
That's a good one. You are right, I know that. However, my point is to study
those subtle differences that no doubt do exist.
Regards,
Signature

Ricardo

Jonathan Morton - 17 Jan 2010 16:58 GMT
>>>> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>>> Thank you so much, TMS. This is definitely the best list of irregular
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That's a good one. You are right, I know that. However, my point is to
> study those subtle differences that no doubt do exist.

But, be warned, Ricardo - the moment you conclude that Version X is AmE and
Version Y is BrE, someone in this group will be along within five minutes to
tell you it is the other way round.

Regards

Jonathan
Ricardo - 17 Jan 2010 23:34 GMT
>>>>> http://www.apsaulters.net/verbs.html
>>>> Thank you so much, TMS. This is definitely the best list of irregular
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Regards
> Jonathan

Yeah :) It looks like you hit it just right. It sure ain't easy. Tough life,
tough life...
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Ricardo

 
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