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red politician?

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Holger Freese - 17 Jan 2010 00:01 GMT
Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.

Many thanks in advance,

Ho
Mark Brader - 17 Jan 2010 01:14 GMT
Holger Freese:
> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> or just a Red?

No.  I associate the term with the McCarthy era.
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tony cooper - 17 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT
>Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
>
>Many thanks in advance,

Why do you need anything different from "Communist" if he's a
Communist?   He either is or isn't a Communist.  If he's not a
Communist, anything you call him that implies that he is a Communist
may insult him.

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Ray O'Hara - 17 Jan 2010 06:03 GMT
> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Ho

In communists marched under red banners.
Everybody has their colors and the commies picked red.

 "If the key of E is the People's Key
 Then what is the Key of the Bourgoisie?
 I ask this question most sincerely
 In what key do they play?"
J. J. Lodder - 17 Jan 2010 10:38 GMT
> > Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> > or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> In communists marched under red banners.
> Everybody has their colors and the commies picked red.

Which may have been taken from the tricolore
where the colours are suposed to stand for
freedom, equality, and brotherhood.
(which is probly just an interpretation after the fact)

Other theories for the tricolore are
adapted from the Dutch flag, (like the Russians did)
or a political compromise betwee Paris' red/blue
and royalist white.

Jan
Peter Moylan - 18 Jan 2010 02:26 GMT
>> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.

> In communists marched under red banners.
> Everybody has their colors and the commies picked red.

Leading, inter alia, to the expression "Red states" in US foreign policy
discussions. But lower-case "red" is a horse of a different colour.

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Steve Hayes - 17 Jan 2010 06:07 GMT
>Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.

Except in the USA, where "red states" are apparently controlled by the
right-wing Republican Party.

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Cece - 18 Jan 2010 19:58 GMT
> >Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> >or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Blog:http://methodius.blogspot.com
> E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

The colors assigned to the U.S. political parties are from the color-
coded charts used by the TV networks, not selected by the parties.  In
the days of black and white TV, and single-color newspapers, the
choice in each state would be shown by horizontal or vertical stripes,
or dots and plain.  When color became available, one publication might
use brown and yellow while another used blue and white; at the next
election, different color combinations would be used.  But in 1992 or
1996 the TV networks, all having picked red to indicate which states
were voting Republican and blue to indicate Democrat, opposite to what
they'd used during the previous election, began saying "Red" and
"Blue" instead of the parties' names.  I was startled as the Democrats
are much closer to being Communists than Republicans are.  But the TV
news organizations have been do using this terminology ever since,
unchanged.

Holger, are you writing about something happennig now?  Where?

If you are writing about something happening in the U.S. between World
War II and the end of the U.S.S.R., "Red" means someone who agrees
completely with the Communist Party.  A Red may be a "card-carrying
Communist" or someone who sympathizes whole-heartedly but isn't
actually officially a Communist.  In the latter case, it'll be his
opponents who see and understand what he is up to, and he will
probably object to the characterization.  Of course, the folks who
call him Red may be mistaken...  Folks who were more blatant about
agreeing, at least in part, but were not members of the Communist
Party, were called pinkos.

Communists had lots of buzzwords and code words back then.
"Politically aware" or "politically mature" = Communist.  "Politically
naive" = in favor of democracy, not communist.  "Progressive" = hard-
core Communist, adherent of the Soviet way.
Mark Brader - 18 Jan 2010 23:40 GMT
Cece Armstrong:
> Communists had lots of buzzwords and code words back then.
> ... "Progressive" = hard-core Communist, adherent of the Soviet way.

This reminds me, my books of public transit history is one by John
Bromley and Jack May called "Fifty Years of Progressive Transit:
A History of the Toronto Transit Commision".  The 50 years of the
title begin in 1921 when public transit in Toronto was removed from
private ownership, until just before the publication date of 1973.

During that period the TTC was transformed from a network consisting
almost entirely of streetcar lines into one focused on a small number
of subway lines with a large number of bus routes, plus the few
remaining streetcar lines and a similar number of trolleybus routes
(since eliminated), serving as feeders and covering the rest of what
the urban area.

The book goes into immense detail about streetcars, and when it gets
to the subway era, it covers that well as well.  Trolleybuses are
given relatively little coverage and buses, although a major part
of the TTC system by the 1970s, are hardly mentioned.

In other words, "Progressive" in the title of *this* book means
"electric, and preferably running on tracks".

The book was published by the Electric Railroaders' Association.
*Hmmm!*
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R H Draney - 19 Jan 2010 06:56 GMT
Mark Brader filted:

>The book goes into immense detail about streetcars, and when it gets
>to the subway era, it covers that well as well.  Trolleybuses are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>In other words, "Progressive" in the title of *this* book means
>"electric, and preferably running on tracks".

Phoenix has just completed its first year of "light rail" service amid much
hoopla, and now certain parties are beginning to make random noises about
*other* kinds of commuter lines in the Valley, perhaps using the very rails that
the Southern Pacific uses to run freight (and which Amtrak shared until they
kicked Phoenix out of the system)....

This raises the question of what to call such lines...we need a retronym for
"rail that isn't light rail"...any recommendations?...r

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Mark Brader - 19 Jan 2010 08:59 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> In other words, "Progressive" in the title of *this* book means
>> "electric, and preferably running on tracks".

R.H. Draney:
> Phoenix has just completed its first year of "light rail" service amid much
> hoopla, and now certain parties are beginning to make random noises about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> This raises the question of what to call such lines...we need a retronym for
> "rail that isn't light rail"...any recommendations?

Trains, as opposed to streetcars.  What else?

People who call streetcars "light rail" would say "heavy rail".
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 19 Jan 2010 16:07 GMT
> Mark Brader:

>> This raises the question of what to call such lines...we need a
>> retronym for "rail that isn't light rail"...any recommendations?
>
> Trains, as opposed to streetcars.  What else?
>
> People who call streetcars "light rail" would say "heavy rail".

And they do.  Google Books shows over a thousand hits for "heavy
rail", the first n of which appear to be making exactly this
distinction (although the second hit I get has a thrree-way split
between "heavy rail", "light rail", and "commuter rail").

The earlest I see talking about a "heavy rail transit system" in
apparently this sense is from 1975.  Before that, there's a lot of
talk about "heavy rail", but it appears to refer to the rails
themselves rather than the transportation that runs on it.

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HVS - 19 Jan 2010 16:23 GMT
On 19 Jan 2010, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote

>> Mark Brader:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The earlest I see talking about a "heavy rail transit system" in
> apparently this sense is from 1975.

That sounds about right to me;  I was at grad school (town planning)
in 1974-76, and I'm sure that's where I became familiar with both
terms.

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Mark Brader - 19 Jan 2010 20:46 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> People who call streetcars "light rail" would say "heavy rail".

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> And they do.  Google Books shows over a thousand hits...

What, did you imagine I was making it up?
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R H Draney - 19 Jan 2010 23:49 GMT
Mark Brader filted:

>R.H. Draney:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>People who call streetcars "light rail" would say "heavy rail".

This your idea of a streetcar?

 http://www.ssbtr.org/assets/Phoenix%20Light%20Rail.jpg

....r

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Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 01:35 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> Trains, as opposed to streetcars.  What else?

R.H. Draney:
> This your idea of a streetcar?
>
>   http://www.ssbtr.org/assets/Phoenix%20Light%20Rail.jpg

I haven't viewed the image, but if the URL is not misleading, then
of course it's a streetcar.
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Nick Spalding - 20 Jan 2010 11:21 GMT
Mark Brader wrote, in <FfidnUj6Ttt1wMvWnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@vex.net>
on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:35:36 -0600:

> Mark Brader:
> >> Trains, as opposed to streetcars.  What else?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I haven't viewed the image, but if the URL is not misleading, then
> of course it's a streetcar.

Although running on recessed rails it doesn't seem to share its street
with other traffic.
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R H Draney - 20 Jan 2010 18:40 GMT
Nick Spalding filted:

>Mark Brader wrote, in <FfidnUj6Ttt1wMvWnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@vex.net>
> on Tue, 19 Jan 2010 19:35:36 -0600:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Although running on recessed rails it doesn't seem to share its street
>with other traffic.

Not intentionally, nor graciously:

http://www.rochestersubway.com/images/photos/light_rail_crushes_van_in_phoenix_a
rizona.jpg


....r

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Hatunen - 20 Jan 2010 21:51 GMT
>Nick Spalding filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>http://www.rochestersubway.com/images/photos/light_rail_crushes_van_in_phoenix_a
rizona.jpg

I haven't checked out Phoenix light rail yet. Does this photo
mean that it does do some running in the streets? Or is this at a
crossing?

Once light rail is around drivers have to learn some new tricks,
like not parking too close to the tracks.

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Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 23:52 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
> I haven't checked out Phoenix light rail yet. Does this photo
> mean that it does do some running in the streets? Or is this at a
> crossing?

I've only ridden the line once, and only from 3rd and Main in Tempe
to Central and Roosevelt in Phoenix and back, so I'm only talking
about that part of it.  The line has its own bridge across the Salt
River, but otherwise the tracks generally run in the median of the
street or in a lane prohibited to road traffic.  Where the street is
one-way, the streetcar runs in the same direction as traffic and
its single track then may be either on the right or the left.  At
intersections, the other streets are crossed on the level.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 11:33 GMT
>Mark Brader:
>>> Trains, as opposed to streetcars.  What else?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I haven't viewed the image, but if the URL is not misleading, then
>of course it's a streetcar.

Judging by that and other images the vehicle technology is "streetcar".
The track appears to more "train-style".
Ac cording to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Light_Rail_%28Phoenix%29#Overview

   Trains operate on city streets in a "center reservation," similar to
   the Red Line of the METRO light rail system in Houston, the surface
   sections of the Green Line in Boston, and some surface sections of
   the Muni Metro in San Francisco. Some parts of the line, such as the
   bridge over Tempe Town Lake (near State Route 202,) have no contact
   with vehicle traffic

It is not clear to me whether that means that the trains are completely
segregated from other traffic.

Phoenix light rail appears to fit in the second broad category described
in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail#Categories_of_light_rail

   The most difficult distinction to draw is that between light rail
   and streetcar or tram systems. There is a significant amount of
   overlap between the technologies, many of the same vehicles can be
   used for either, and it is common to classify streetcars/trams as a
   subtype of light rail rather than as a distinct type of
   transportation. The two general versions are:
   
      1. The traditional type, where the tracks and trains run along
         the streets and share space with road traffic. Stops tend to
         be very frequent, but little effort is made to set up special
         stations. Because space is shared, the tracks are usually
         visually unobtrusive.
      2. A more modern variation, where the trains tend to run along
         their own right-of-way and are often separated from road
         traffic. Stops are generally less frequent, and the vehicles
         are often boarded from a platform. Tracks are highly visible,
         and in some cases significant effort is expended to keep
         traffic away through the use of special signaling, level
         crossings with gate arms or even a complete separation with
         non-level crossings.
         ....

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Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 17:20 GMT
Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:

>     The most difficult distinction to draw is that between light rail
>     and streetcar or tram systems.

Yes, that's because there is no distinction.  They're all streetcars.
These people are deluding themselves.

Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
something else.  But those are relatively rare in cities.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 18:52 GMT
>Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
>something else.  But those are relatively rare in cities.

I see that Dublin's Luas system is described by its operators as a
"Light Rail Tram System". The rolling-stock is of tram (streetcar)
style. The track is partly on-street and partly segregated.
http://www.luas.ie/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luas

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Hatunen - 20 Jan 2010 22:04 GMT
>>Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>"Light Rail Tram System". The rolling-stock is of tram (streetcar)
>style. The track is partly on-street and partly segregated.

The San Francisco Metro consits of tram-like cars from Breda
(Italy) which operate underground in the downtown area like a
proper metro, but which run on street center tracks in the
western parts of the city (but in a few special ROWs in a few
places). I seem to recall that the Koeln system was rather like
this. (Do I disremember, or did Munich also have a system like
this?)

>http://www.luas.ie/index.php
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luas

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Paul Schmitz-Josten - 21 Jan 2010 10:33 GMT
Hatunen in <59vel5dhc98r2d2vo5rl2cevr08nlpafti@4ax.com>:

>The San Francisco Metro consits of tram-like cars from Breda
>(Italy) which operate underground in the downtown area like a
>proper metro, but which run on street center tracks in the
>western parts of the city (but in a few special ROWs in a few
>places). I seem to recall that the Koeln system was rather like
>this.

ACK. They simply put their streetcars underground in the town center in
1968.

>(Do I disremember, or did Munich also have a system like
>this?)

AFAIK (from 1975 on) no. The muni had & has proper streetcars and proper
subways with different car types and no common rails. Public transport is
completed by the S-Bahn which may correspond to BART or RER in Paris.

Ciao,

Paul
Hatunen - 20 Jan 2010 22:00 GMT
>Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
>something else.  But those are relatively rare in cities.

The Miami people-mover is rather like DLR and I don't see any way
to really call either "light rail" even if they are light. The
Miami system operates fully automatically without drivers; the
last time I was on the DLR, some ten or so years ago, they did
have some sort of driver-attendant, but I gathered that they were
there more as a re-assurance after some unpleasant event had
occured.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_mover.

(Disneyland California had a rail system like the Never-Stop
Railway described on that page. I haven't been there in quite a
while and don't know if it's still there.)

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Mark Brader - 21 Jan 2010 01:17 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
>> something else.  But those are relatively rare in cities.

Dave Hatunen:
> The Miami people-mover is rather like DLR and I don't see any way
> to really call either "light rail" even if they are light.

"Light rail" means streetcars.  I said the DLR was a light railway.

> The Miami system operates fully automatically without drivers; the
> last time I was on the DLR, some ten or so years ago, they did
> have some sort of driver-attendant, but I gathered that they were
> there more as a re-assurance...

Indeed, the attendant on the DLR has nothing to do with driving the
train unless the automatic system breaks down.  But I don't see what
the type of driving has to do with anything.

> after some unpleasant event had occured.

No, there's always been an attendant.  Some transit operators just
prefer not to have their vehicles completely unattended.  Similarly,
Scarborough RT trains carry a driver who normally just pushes a start
button at each station, while the Vancouver SkyTrain, whose original
trains were otherwise identical to the Scarborough ones, do not.
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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 05:35 GMT
> Mark Brader:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> "Light rail" means streetcars.  I said the DLR was a light railway.

By whose definition?  To me, streetcars share the right of way with
automobiles--they have to stop at traffic lights, stop signs, and the
like.  Light rail has its own dedicated tracks, and is independent of
street traffic controls.
Mark Brader - 21 Jan 2010 07:58 GMT
> > > The Miami people-mover is rather like DLR and I don't see any way
> > > to really call either "light rail" even if they are light.

> > "Light rail" means streetcars.  I said the DLR was a light railway.

> By whose definition?

Mine, who else?

> To me, streetcars share the right of way with automobiles--they have
> to stop at traffic lights, stop signs, and the like.  Light rail has
> its own dedicated tracks, and is independent of street traffic controls.

As you wish.
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Frank ess - 21 Jan 2010 17:03 GMT
>> Mark Brader:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the like.  Light rail has its own dedicated tracks, and is
> independent of street traffic controls.

Here comes one of San Diego's light rail trains, now:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2738/4292729309_aa69efb4e7_o.jpg

They do run in traffic:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4292729351_0caf5d4319_o.jpg
Those are about half a mile from the San Diego bayfront, heading east.

The first line was between downtown and the border community of San
Ysidro, gateway to Tijuana, Baja California Norte, Mexico, and called
"Tijuana Trolley". There are still stretches of a mile or so between
stations where they run pretty train-like speeds, and I don't think
they shed their "light-rail-ness" when they come into city streets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Trolley

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Frank ess

Default User - 21 Jan 2010 17:19 GMT
> "Light rail" means streetcars.  I said the DLR was a light railway.

Ah. By this definition (an odd one, I'd say) the St. Louis system is
not light rail to you. It is not a streetcar system.

Brian

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Hatunen - 21 Jan 2010 21:17 GMT
>Mark Brader:
>>> Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>"Light rail" means streetcars.  I said the DLR was a light railway.

I assume that by "streetcar" you man somthing that at least
nominally runs in streets. In my mind, a light rail car or train
running only on elevated tracks or underground is still "light
rail".

"Streetcar" seems to be a largely North American term for what
Europeans call "trams". At least I fail to be able to discern a
difference between trams and streetcars.

>> The Miami system operates fully automatically without drivers; the
>> last time I was on the DLR, some ten or so years ago, they did
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>No, there's always been an attendant.

Ah.

>Some transit operators just
>prefer not to have their vehicles completely unattended.  Similarly,
>Scarborough RT trains carry a driver who normally just pushes a start
>button at each station, while the Vancouver SkyTrain, whose original
>trains were otherwise identical to the Scarborough ones, do not.

SF BART was originally intended to run unattended, but it never
has.

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R H Draney - 22 Jan 2010 02:40 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>>Mark Brader:
>>>> Now a light *railway*, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Europeans call "trams". At least I fail to be able to discern a
>difference between trams and streetcars.

Maybe it's the Harold Lloyd influence (the film "Speedy"), but when I hear
"streetcar", I half expect it to be drawn by a team of horses....r

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Default User - 20 Jan 2010 22:49 GMT
> Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Now a light railway, like the DLR or the Scarborough RT, that's
> something else.  But those are relatively rare in cities.

I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail system
in St. Louis (Metrolink) runs on dedicated tracks, many of them old
railroad tracks. I wouldn't call it a streetcar.

Brian

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Day 352 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 23:19 GMT
>> Peter Duncanson quotes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>in St. Louis (Metrolink) runs on dedicated tracks, many of them old
>railroad tracks. I wouldn't call it a streetcar.

The US National Transit Database Glossary says:
http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/Glossary.htm

   Heavy Rail (HR)
   A transit mode that is an electric railway with the capacity for a
   heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid
   acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car
   trains on fixed rails, separate rights-of-way (ROW) from which all
   other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded, sophisticated
   signaling, and high platform loading.

   Heavy Rail Passenger Cars (HR)
   Vehicle Type: Rail cars with motive capability, driven by electric
   power taken from overhead lines or third rails, configured for
   passenger traffic and are usually operated on exclusive right-of-way
   (ROW).

   Light Rail (LR)
   A transit mode that typically is an electric railway with a light
   volume traffic capacity compared to heavy rail (HR). It is
   characterized by passenger rail cars operating singly (or in short,
   usually two car, trains) on fixed rails in shared or exclusive
   right-of-way (ROW), low or high platform loading, and vehicle power
   drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph.
   
   Light Rail Vehicles (LR)
   Vehicle Type: Rail cars with motive capability, usually driven by
   electric power taken from overhead lines, configured for passenger
   traffic, and usually operating on exclusive rights-of-way (ROW).

   Vintage Trolley / Streetcar (VT)
   Vehicle Type: Vintage or antique rail cars originally manufactured
   before 1975. The vehicles are typically operated in mixed traffic
   right-of-way (ROW), but may also operate on exclusive or controlled
   access rights-of-way (ROW).

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(in alt.usage.english)

Default User - 20 Jan 2010 23:40 GMT
> > I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail
> > system in St. Louis (Metrolink) runs on dedicated tracks, many of
> > them old railroad tracks. I wouldn't call it a streetcar.

>     Light Rail (LR)
>     A transit mode that typically is an electric railway with a light
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>     vehicle power drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley
>     or a pantograph.      

That would describe the Metrolink, I believe.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetroLink_(St._Louis)>

Brian

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Mark Brader - 21 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT
"Brian":
> I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail system
> in St. Louis (Metrolink) runs on dedicated tracks, many of them old
> railroad tracks. I wouldn't call it a streetcar.

I haven't been there since it opened, so I don't know what I'd call it.
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msb@vex.net          besides killing and threatening to kill."
Toronto                        --Dashiell Hammett, The Maltese Falcon

Default User - 21 Jan 2010 17:17 GMT
> "Brian":
> > I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I haven't been there since it opened, so I don't know what I'd call
> it.

What are your criteria? I could probably tell you from them. Do they
differ from what Peter posted elsewhere?

Brian

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Day 353 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

Steve Hayes - 21 Jan 2010 17:57 GMT
>> "Brian":
>> > I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>What are your criteria? I could probably tell you from them. Do they
>differ from what Peter posted elsewhere?

For me the difference is that a tram/streetcar has passengers board and alight
at stops at street level, while light railways have platforms at stations.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Hatunen - 21 Jan 2010 21:23 GMT
>>> "Brian":
>>> > I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>For me the difference is that a tram/streetcar has passengers board and alight
>at stops at street level, while light railways have platforms at stations.

How do you classify systems that have both, i.e., San Francisco
Metro? And there are some specially constructed platforms in the
middle of Market Street for San Francisco's F-Line of old
trolleys and streetcars.

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  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 03:33 GMT
>>>> "Brian":
>>>> > I guess I'm still not clear on your definitions. The light rail
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>middle of Market Street for San Francisco's F-Line of old
>trolleys and streetcars.

I've never been to San Francisco, so I can't really imagine it.

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Hatunen - 20 Jan 2010 21:49 GMT
>Mark Brader filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>  http://www.ssbtr.org/assets/Phoenix%20Light%20Rail.jpg

It's the modern version. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Market_&_Wharves for older
"streetcars" (still in use in SF). More at
http://www.webcastro.com/fline.htm

I expect BART is considered heavy rail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit

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  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

R H Draney - 21 Jan 2010 03:41 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>>Mark Brader filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>I expect BART is considered heavy rail.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit

I've been in a few cities with proper streetcars, and they're not trains...if
anything, they're buses that ride in a rut...Seattle even called theirs
"electric buses" (circa 1969)....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Hatunen - 21 Jan 2010 21:25 GMT
>Hatunen filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>anything, they're buses that ride in a rut...Seattle even called theirs
>"electric buses" (circa 1969)....r

Electric buses (electric coaches) have rubber tires and run in
the street without tracks. San Francisco has some electric coach
routes (the low-speed traction of electric motors works well on
San Francisco's famous hills).

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  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Percival P. Cassidy - 21 Jan 2010 21:57 GMT
> Electric buses (electric coaches) have rubber tires and run in
> the street without tracks. San Francisco has some electric coach
> routes (the low-speed traction of electric motors works well on
> San Francisco's famous hills).

What in UK were called "trolley buses"; the London ones were
double-deckers. I only ever rode on one or two, but man, could those
things accelerate!

Perce
Hatunen - 21 Jan 2010 22:45 GMT
>> Electric buses (electric coaches) have rubber tires and run in
>> the street without tracks. San Francisco has some electric coach
>> routes (the low-speed traction of electric motors works well on
>> San Francisco's famous hills).
>
>What in UK were called "trolley buses";

They're also called that in the USA, although the number in
service seems to have diminished a lot since I was a tad.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
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  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Frank ess - 21 Jan 2010 22:24 GMT
[ ... ]

> Electric buses (electric coaches) have rubber tires and run in
> the street without tracks. San Francisco has some electric coach
> routes (the low-speed _traction_ of electric motors works well on
> San Francisco's famous hills).

"Torque", innit?
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 22:44 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "Torque", innit?

It's a question of focus. The motors provide the torque, and the end
result is good traction.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Frank ess - 22 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT
>> [ ... ]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It's a question of focus. The motors provide the torque, and the end
> result is good traction.

It's a question of "Do you want to divorce your assertions from the
language of the post?"

"Traction" has to do with the interaction of wheels and tracks, which
has no "torque", and is independent of motors, whose characteristics
include "torque" but not "traction".

Signature

Frank ess

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 03:42 GMT
>>> [ ... ]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>has no "torque", and is independent of motors, whose characteristics
>include "torque" but not "traction".

When I was driving trolley buses in Johannesburg, the difference was evident.

http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/TROLLEY1.HTM

Trollley buses were better hill-climbers than diesel buses, but if there was a
zebra-crossing on the hill and it was raining, when the wheels of the trolley
bus encountered the slippery paint they span and lost traction, because of the
greater torque. Diesel buses didn't have that problem. So in some
circumstances torque and traction can be in inverse proportion.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Richard Bollard - 22 Jan 2010 02:47 GMT
>> [ ... ]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It's a question of focus. The motors provide the torque, and the end
>result is good traction.

Some people are all torque and no traction.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

James Hogg - 22 Jan 2010 07:43 GMT
>>> [ ... ]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Some people are all torque and no traction.

Bollard's!

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James

Hatunen - 21 Jan 2010 22:46 GMT
>[ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>"Torque", innit?

Yeah. Probably the better word for it.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 03:36 GMT
>>I've been in a few cities with proper streetcars, and they're not trains...if
>>anything, they're buses that ride in a rut...Seattle even called theirs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>routes (the low-speed traction of electric motors works well on
>San Francisco's famous hills).

Are you referring to trolley buses?

Johannesburg used to have those, and I used to drive them.

Pictures at:

http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/TROLLEY1.HTM

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Bertel Lund Hansen - 17 Jan 2010 10:24 GMT
Holger Freese skrev:

> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> or just a Red?

I'd call him communist or left-wing if that is what he is.

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Bertel, Denmark

J. J. Lodder - 17 Jan 2010 10:43 GMT
> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.

Would you think this adds information?

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 18 Jan 2010 11:45 GMT
>> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
>
> Would you think this adds information?

It adds information about the speaker, not about the person referred to.

Signature

athel

J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2010 12:33 GMT
> >> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> >> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
> >
> > Would you think this adds information?
>
> It adds information about the speaker, not about the person referred to.

That's what I implied,

Jan

(and not very favourable informationn)
Jerry Friedman - 19 Jan 2010 00:22 GMT
> > >> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> > >> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> (and not very favourable informationn)

In that case I won't admit that I might use "commie" affectionately
for a Communist in a non-Communist country who I admire for non-
political reasons: maybe Steven Brust or China Mieville.  I might call
Pete Seeger "an old commie"--"old" meaning both "getting on in years"
and "former".

(Does anyone need an identification?  Steven Brust and China Mieville
are sf writers, and Pete Seeger is a singer and songwriter.)

--
Jerry Friedman
Ray O'Hara - 24 Jan 2010 03:55 GMT
On Jan 18, 5:33 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 2010-01-17 11:43:33 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> (and not very favourable informationn)

In that case I won't admit that I might use "commie" affectionately
for a Communist in a non-Communist country who I admire for non-
political reasons: maybe Steven Brust or China Mieville.  I might call
Pete Seeger "an old commie"--"old" meaning both "getting on in years"
and "former".

================================================================================

There is nothing former about Seeger's political leanings or Howard Zinn's
nor are they ashamed of them.
Cece - 25 Jan 2010 16:31 GMT
> On Jan 18, 5:33 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Howard Fast?  Dalton Trumbo?  Barack Obama?
Ray O'Hara - 25 Jan 2010 21:28 GMT
On Jan 23, 9:55 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Howard Fast?  Dalton Trumbo?  Barack Obama?

Are you a "birther" beside also?
Only wingnut birthwes think Obama is a red.
Cece - 26 Jan 2010 16:58 GMT
> On Jan 23, 9:55 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

No.  I'm sure he was born in Hawaii.  I'm not entirely sure where he
picked up his politics; _Dreams from my Father_ is strangely silent on
his college years.  I've been listening to him for over a year now.
And I am convinced that he sees himself as Uncle Bar.
Jerry Friedman - 26 Jan 2010 17:37 GMT
> On Jan 18, 5:33 am, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> There is nothing former about Seeger's political leanings or Howard Zinn's
> nor are they ashamed of them.

There's leanings, and then there's membership in a party.  But I see
that I was wrong about former.  Fifteen years ao, Seeger said, "I
still call myself a communist, because communism is no more what
Russia made of it than Christianity is what the churches make of it.
But if by some freak of history communism had caught up with this
country, I would have been one of the first people thrown in jail."

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/sunday-january-22-1995-the-old-left.h
tml?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/S/Seeger,%20Pete


So I restrict my "old commie" description to his age.

I don't know much about Zinn.

--
Jerry Friedman
Ray O'Hara - 27 Jan 2010 06:53 GMT
On Jan 23, 9:55 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> There is nothing former about Seeger's political leanings or Howard Zinn's
> nor are they ashamed of them.

There's leanings, and then there's membership in a party.  But I see
that I was wrong about former.  Fifteen years ao, Seeger said, "I
still call myself a communist, because communism is no more what
Russia made of it than Christianity is what the churches make of it.
But if by some freak of history communism had caught up with this
country, I would have been one of the first people thrown in jail."

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/sunday-january-22-1995-the-old-left.h
tml?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/S/Seeger,%20Pete


So I restrict my "old commie" description to his age.

I don't know much about Zinn.

--

==================================================================

Its worth reading his books.
a Peoples History of the United States his biggest seller gives a good idea
of his views.
He wrote a play 'Marx in Soho' in which Karl Marx appears in Soho NYC in
modern times.{he gave me an autographed copy}
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=books+by+howard+zinn&tag=googhydr-20&i
ndex=stripbooks&hvadid=3587706945&ref=pd_sl_62qxajwuf4_e


Howie is a gentleman and a nice guy and he had a long career as an educator
at Boston University.
Jerry Friedman - 29 Jan 2010 15:41 GMT
...

> I don't know much about Zinn.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>  Howie is a gentleman and a nice guy and he had a long career as an educator
> at Boston University.

Then may he rest in peace.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/howard_zinn_his.html

--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Schmitz-Josten - 17 Jan 2010 11:07 GMT
Holger Freese in <7rf2b1Fv3kU1@mid.individual.net>:

>Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.

Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
parties of beliefs in Germany.

red    leftist or leftish (SPD, Linkspartei, socialist, communist)
black    conservative or church-oriented (CDU, CSU)
green    environmental (Die Gruenen)
yellow    liberal (FDP)
brown    nationalist (NPD ...)

These terms are widely used to identify the parties, e.g. in coalitions or
inter-party talks: red-red, red-green, black-yellow or "traffic-lights":
red-yellow-green. Even "Jamaica" was used: black-yellow-green.

BTW: From a German website (1) I just learned that the colours may
originate from a rather unpolitical event: Roman circus horse races, where
the public (and Emperor Nero, e.g.) identified with the competitors by
wearing their colours, this tradition being alive in today's sports.

Ciao,

Paul

(1) <http://www.farbenundleben.de/kultur/parteien.htm>
Steve Hayes - 17 Jan 2010 11:46 GMT
>Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
>parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>yellow    liberal (FDP)
>brown    nationalist (NPD ...)

I think I need a red, black and yellow flag.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

James Hogg - 17 Jan 2010 11:51 GMT
>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
>> parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I think I need a red, black and yellow flag.

Are you German too?

Signature

James

Mike Lyle - 17 Jan 2010 20:55 GMT
>>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to
>>> political parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Are you German too?

Maybe he's a famous Belgian.

Colours have always been associated with political parties in Britain,
and I presume everywhere else; I don't think there's any need to go back
to the Circus Maximus. The present colour scheme is red for Labour, blue
for Conservative, yellow for Liberal, and others for others. These
colours weren't always fixed, though: there was local variation, so that
in some places the Conservatives were red and the Liberals, blue (Am I
right to feel that there may still be a town where they preserve that
tradition?). Carmarthen in West Wales has a Blue Street and a Red
Street, named after the Victorian political partisans who haunted
them --but I can't remember which was which there.

Signature

Mike.

LFS - 17 Jan 2010 21:09 GMT
>>>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to
>>>> political parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Street, named after the Victorian political partisans who haunted
> them --but I can't remember which was which there.

When I was very young the Liberal colours were green and white: come
election time, I remember my mum sewing hundreds of rosettes out of
green and white ribbon.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Steve Hayes - 18 Jan 2010 04:52 GMT
>Colours have always been associated with political parties in Britain,
>and I presume everywhere else; I don't think there's any need to go back
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Street, named after the Victorian political partisans who haunted
>them --but I can't remember which was which there.

Wasn't the Liberal colour pink at one time?

Or perhaps I've been confused by Mr Vorster's references to "little pink
liberalists".

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

J. J. Lodder - 18 Jan 2010 10:54 GMT
> >Colours have always been associated with political parties in Britain,
> >and I presume everywhere else; I don't think there's any need to go back
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Or perhaps I've been confused by Mr Vorster's references to "little pink
> liberalists".

Moe likely a McCarthy echo,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 18 Jan 2010 11:41 GMT
>>>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to
>>>> political parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> right to feel that there may still be a town where they preserve that
> tradition?).

Back in 1956 (or was it 1957, the year of the plague?) the Liberals in
Shrewsbury grabbed red as "their" colour before the local Labour Party
had got organized for the General Election, leaving them to choose
something else.

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athel

Steve Hayes - 18 Jan 2010 04:47 GMT
>>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
>>> parties of beliefs in Germany.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Are you German too?

No, but it sounds as though I'd fit right in.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Paul Schmitz-Josten - 18 Jan 2010 06:31 GMT
Steve Hayes in <otp7l5pt60752lmt5s5g6jtoal66v3qian@4ax.com>:

(Paul Schmitz-Josten on political colours in Germany:)
>>>> red    leftist or leftish (SPD, Linkspartei, socialist, communist)
>>>> black    conservative or church-oriented (CDU, CSU)

>>>> yellow    liberal (FDP)

(Steve Hayes)
>>> I think I need a red, black and yellow flag.

(James Hogg:)
>>Are you German too?

(Steve Hayes)
>No, but it sounds as though I'd fit right in.

If so, you are a very undecided one ;->

Twenty years ago, before the Greens were founded, these three were
_all_ the parties of any nationwide influence here <bg>

Ciao,

Paul
Steve Hayes - 18 Jan 2010 07:40 GMT
>Steve Hayes in <otp7l5pt60752lmt5s5g6jtoal66v3qian@4ax.com>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Twenty years ago, before the Greens were founded, these three were
>_all_ the parties of any nationwide influence here <bg>

Which is presumably why their colours make up the flag.

And, since I am a religious liberal socialist, the flag represents me.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Paul Schmitz-Josten - 18 Jan 2010 14:34 GMT
Steve Hayes in <iu38l5dlqp9dllrkpm53jojtnpjmr90j31@4ax.com>:

(Steve fitting in to a red, black and yellow flag)
>>If so, you are a very undecided one ;->
>>
>>Twenty years ago, before the Greens were founded, these three were
>>_all_ the parties of any nationwide influence here <bg>
>
>Which is presumably why their colours make up the flag.

That would be black, red, yellow (at least a minimal excuse why I didn't
recognize the coincidence.

And no, nobody thought of socialists or liberals when the colours were
created (before or about 1200).

>And, since I am a religious liberal socialist, the flag represents me.

Agreed ;->

Ciao,

Paul
Reinhold {Rey} Aman - 19 Jan 2010 06:35 GMT
[...]
> That would be black, red, yellow
[...]
The official national colors of Germany (flag, etc.) are not black, red,
and *yellow* but black, red, and *gold*.

See Article 22, Sec. 2, of the German _Grundgesetz_ (Constitution):

_Die Bundesflagge ist schwarz-rot-gold._
"The federal flag is black-red-gold."

Signature

~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

R H Draney - 19 Jan 2010 07:04 GMT
Reinhold {Rey} Aman filted:

>[...]
>> That would be black, red, yellow
>[...]
>The official national colors of Germany (flag, etc.) are not black, red,
>and *yellow* but black, red, and *gold*.

Aren't flags supposed to be subject to the conventions of heraldry?...I was
given such an explanation to explain the counterchanging of red and white when
the saltire of St Patrick was added to the flag of the United Kingdom...but then
Russia chose a flag violating the "color-on-metal, metal-on-color" restriction,
so I'm not sure how widely those customs are honored....

Anyway, in heraldry, the third color of the German flag would be "or" which is
variously glossed as either "gold" or "yellow"...(then again, if the German flag
*is* subject to those customs, it violates the same rule that the Russian one
does)....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Paul Schmitz-Josten - 19 Jan 2010 09:41 GMT
Reinhold {Rey} Aman in <4B55529E.F2D77EC9@sonic.net>:

>> That would be black, red, yellow
>[...]
>The official national colors of Germany (flag, etc.) are not black, red,
>and *yellow* but black, red, and *gold*.

I stand corrected.

Paul
Peter Moylan - 18 Jan 2010 13:55 GMT
> Steve Hayes in <otp7l5pt60752lmt5s5g6jtoal66v3qian@4ax.com>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Twenty years ago, before the Greens were founded, these three were
> _all_ the parties of any nationwide influence here <bg>

Despite our smaller size, the Australian situation is rather more
complicated. In order of size, our four biggest parties are:

 red    Labor.  Nominally left-wing, but these days the party
        is very heavily dominated by its right-wing faction, so
        its position in the political spectrum is somewhat to the
        the right of where the Country Party used to be.

 blue   Liberal. The name means "economically liberal", i.e. this
        is the major right-wing party.

 green  Greens. Similar to the environmentalist party of many other
        countries. Because of its stance on things like social
        justice and education, the Green party is widely considered
        to be a left-wing party.

 (no colour) National Party. This used to be called the Country
        Party, and it's probably fair to say that this is still the
        farmers' party. Deeply conservative: they probably still
        believe that there is a Red under every bed. The main role
        of the National Party is to form a coalition with the Liberal
        Party.

The first two of these account for 70-80% of the vote. The Nationals
used to be important when they were the Country Party, but are gradually
fading into insignificance. (Although there's been a flare-up of
relevance because a maverick in the party insists on representing his
constituents rather than the hidden power-brokers who make party
policy.) The Greens used to be insignificant, but are gradually gaining
power by filling the void left by the absence of any major left-wing party.

Beyond these, there is a huge range of minor parties. On the right wing,
one explicitly religious party, and one religious party that doesn't
admit to being religious, have one representative each in Parliament. On
the left wing, there are a couple of parties that claim to stand for
what the Labor Party used to stand for, and a few others who will
probably never gain much support. In fact, the "will never gain much
support" group covers both the far right (Nazi party, Shooters' Party),
the far left (a couple of communist parties), and pretty much everything
in between.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 18 Jan 2010 15:38 GMT
>  [ ... ]

> Beyond these, there is a huge range of minor parties. On the right wing,
> one explicitly religious party, and one religious party that doesn't
> admit to being religious,

A sort of political version of "intelligent design"? (Except, of
course, that "intelligent design" itself has a lot more to do with
politics than with science.)

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athel

Peter Moylan - 18 Jan 2010 23:29 GMT
>> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> course, that "intelligent design" itself has a lot more to do with
> politics than with science.)

Not quite. The second party I had in mind calls itself "Family First".
It's pretty much understood, but people both inside and outside the
party, that their "family values" line up fairly accurately with what
other people would call "Christian values".

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Garrett Wollman - 19 Jan 2010 02:28 GMT
>Not quite. The second party I had in mind calls itself "Family First".
>It's pretty much understood, but people both inside and outside the
>party, that their "family values" line up fairly accurately with what
>other people would call "Christian values".

I suspect many of the Christians I know would object to that
characterization, if "family values" means the same thing in Oz as it
does here (= "almost but not quite as tolerant as Wahhabism").

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Bertel Lund Hansen - 17 Jan 2010 11:56 GMT
Paul Schmitz-Josten skrev:

> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
> parties of beliefs in Germany.

It's the same in Denmark though we do not use as many colours:
red for left-wing
blue for right-wing
green for environmental

But we do not talk about red or blue politicians. The colours are
mostly used to describe blocks in our parliament.

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Bertel, Denmark

Cheryl - 17 Jan 2010 12:50 GMT
> Paul Schmitz-Josten skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> But we do not talk about red or blue politicians. The colours are
> mostly used to describe blocks in our parliament.

Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party with its
own. The two major parties are red (Conservative) and blue (Liberal),
which is the reverse of yours. And the colours aren't ascribed to
individuals, although there was a time in the past when we had "Red
Tories" (Tory = conservative), which meant individuals belonging to the
Progressive Conservative party who had some ideas in common with the
more left-leaning Liberal party. However, that term is now obsolete
since the party itself, after various mergings and morphings, is now the
Conservative Party, and anyone in it with Liberal leanings is lying very
low indeed.

Generally speaking, to put things in a bit of perspective, the most
right-wing Canadian politicians are often a bit left of the more
left-wing politicians in the much better-known US system.

So it's all relative anyway.

Oh, we do have an environmental party, and I expect their colour is
green, but they are very small and not influential. There is also a
party a bit to the left of the Liberals (orange, IIRC) and a few other
parties as well.
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Cheryl

CDB - 17 Jan 2010 20:47 GMT
[party colours]

> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
> with its own. The two major parties are red (Conservative) and blue
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and morphings, is now the Conservative Party, and anyone in it with
> Liberal leanings is lying very low indeed.

[...]

As the rest of your post indicates, you know that it's Liberal red and
Tory blue, and merely got your typing fingers tangled up.  The
Conservative Reform Alliance Party continues to put blue on everything
it can tag, so maybe we can conclude that that's the general
right-wing colour around here.  Or maybe it's because, when they
killed and ate the Tories, they put on the bleeding skin.
--
Cut the CRAP
Cheryl - 18 Jan 2010 11:13 GMT
> [party colours]
>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>  --
> Cut the CRAP

Ah, right, thank you. I really should re-read my posts carefully1

I wonder who else will get the "Cut the CRAP" reference?

Signature

Cheryl

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 18 Jan 2010 11:44 GMT
>> [party colours]
>>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> I wonder who else will get the "Cut the CRAP" reference?

Not me, anyway.

(Or "Not I", as Mr Walker would doubtless insist.)

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athel

Cheryl - 18 Jan 2010 12:19 GMT
>>> [party colours]
>>>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> (Or "Not I", as Mr Walker would doubtless insist.)

At one point during the period of infighting and, um, reorganization,
among the Progressive Conservatives and the Reform Party, the
politicians in question called themselves the Canadian Conservative
Reform Alliance. Tack "Party" onto that ... I think that name lasted
about 24 hours.

Now they just call themselves Conservatives.

Signature

Cheryl

tony cooper - 18 Jan 2010 15:59 GMT
>> [party colours]
>>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>I wonder who else will get the "Cut the CRAP" reference?

I don't "get it", but I see it in the post.  Why you would want to cut
the Conservative Reform Alliance Party is something I wouldn't
understand.  I'm a CRUD...Conservative Reform Uninformed Dummy.



Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Cheryl - 18 Jan 2010 16:49 GMT
>>> [party colours]
>>>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> the Conservative Reform Alliance Party is something I wouldn't
> understand.  I'm a CRUD...Conservative Reform Uninformed Dummy.

Well, it's long and complicated, but even some lifelong Conservatives
disliked the CCRAP, which is what I think they really wanted to be
called before everyone started laughing at their name, and hated the
Reform party, which was very influential in its formation.

Basically, you had the original (more or less) conservatives being
considered far too liberal by the upstart conservatives, who were seen
as being far too right wing and American-influenced by people who were,
in their turn, seen as being practically Commies, or at the very least,
too much influenced by the liberals, and (more seriously) incapable of
winning an election. Meanwhile, the Liberal party was disintegrating due
to internal bickering, the NDP was failing yet again to gain serious
support nation-wide while seeing an opportunity for federal power, and
regional rivalries were being adding to the mix.

Practically everyone except the Reform people themselves probably wanted
to cut out the various recent versions of the Conservative party. Their
own members because all these newcomers were changing the party out of
all recognition, and the other parties' members because they sensed a
serious rival and knew they were too weak themselves to challenge them.

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Cheryl

CDB - 18 Jan 2010 16:53 GMT
>>> [party colours]
>>>> Our political parties have their colours, of course, each party
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> cut the Conservative Reform Alliance Party is something I wouldn't
> understand.  I'm a CRUD...Conservative Reform Uninformed Dummy.

As Cheryl said in another posting, there is some history behind the
acronym.

I would want to cut them because they are doing considerable harm to
my country with their present large minority, and will do far worse if
they win a majority.  Their major danger is that, under Harper, they
have adopted the toxic political philosophies and antidemocratic* and
scurrilously divisive tactics that have taken over the Republican
Party in your country.  Apart from that, and him, they are largely the
old Tory Party, or its right and centre wings, but run by its western
rump.  That was never the party's more presentable end, so maybe there
is some hope.

*In the face of an embarrassing committee enquiry about government
policy on the treatment of Afghan prisoners, Harper has prorogued the
adjourned House until March on various excuses, including his need to
think deeply about the next Budget (hope nobody gave him gum for
Christmas) and the destabilising effect on the markets of Opposition
criticism.
Paul Schmitz-Josten - 17 Jan 2010 13:35 GMT
Bertel Lund Hansen in
<7gu5l5pu6up7tlilcsm1l39qm9a8bnbh16@news.stofanet.dk>:

>> Maybe we should explain that it is common to allocate colours to political
>> parties of beliefs in Germany.

(speaking about Denmark:)
>But we do not talk about red or blue politicians. The colours are
>mostly used to describe blocks in our parliament.

We do: He's a red, he's a black (as a mostly pejorative substantive).

Alas, those colour combinations (red-green etc.) correspond to the parties.

Ciao,

Paul
Cheryl - 17 Jan 2010 11:11 GMT
> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Ho

I wouldn't use 'Red'. It sounds a bit dated. If the politician was a
member of a political party, I'd use the name of the party. If I wanted
to be more general, I'd say 'left-wing' or 'very left-wing'. I think
that nicknames for people of various political affiliations vary by
country, and I know that what's considered left-wing in one country can
be middle-of-the-road in another, so describing politicians can get
quite complicated in an international setting.

Signature

Cheryl

Chuck Riggs - 17 Jan 2010 16:10 GMT
>> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>be middle-of-the-road in another, so describing politicians can get
>quite complicated in an international setting.

For the very left-wing politician, I'd call him a left-wing,
tree-hugging, business baiting, big government clown. For the
communist, I'd call him a communist.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 18 Jan 2010 11:49 GMT
>> Would you call a communist or very left-wing politician a red politician
>> or just a Red? I know that "commie" is an insulting word for a communist.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> country, and I know that what's considered left-wing in one country can
> be middle-of-the-road in another,

Right. I don't know of _any_ politician in the US that I would call
left-wing. Certainly not Obama, and maybe not even the socialist
senator for Vermont, who would be little more than pink in a European
context.

Signature

athel

 
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