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mixed conditional sentences

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RF L - 19 Jan 2010 07:45 GMT
Hello everyone

I just finished 「The Hidden Life of Otto Frank」 by Carol Ann Lee.
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Otto-Frank/dp/0060520833

It's based on Otto Frank's life- the father of Dutch Jewish girl, Anne
Frank.

In the book, when Anne's friend Hanneli recalls that she met Anne by
chance in the camp in 1945, she says: 「Anne told me that her father
had been killed-her mother, too, she thought. It was a pity she
thought her father had died when he had not. The way she idolized him,
perhaps she would have had the hope to live if she knew he was still
alive.」

Why did she say: 「perhaps she would have had the hope to live if she
knew he was still alive.」 instead of 「perhaps she would have had the
hope to live if she had known he was still alive.」

In Somerset Maugham's 「The Razor's Edge」, when Isabel's distressed and
reproaches herself regretfully about her relationship with her lover.
Maugham says to her:」 If he loved you enough he wouldn't have
hesitated to do what you want." "I've said that to myself too. But it
doesn't help. I suppose it's more in woman's nature to sacrifice
herself than in a man's."

Why did Maugham say: 「If he loved you enough he wouldn't have
hesitated to do what you want." instead of 「If he had loved you enough
he wouldn't have hesitated to do what you want.」

I thumbed through some English grammar books (e.g. Practical English
Usage), it reads as follows: 「Sometimes a simple past tense is used
with if where a past perfect would be normal. This is more common in
American English.」 Michael Swan also puts this usage into 「if: other
structures found in spoken English」 category.

It's really just the informal usage in spoken English? That's all?
Does it have some other meaning?
Besides, I wonder why the present can affect the past in this informal
usage.

Could someone explain it for me??

Thanks!!
Pat Durkin - 19 Jan 2010 15:49 GMT
> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> It's really just the informal usage in spoken English? That's all?

Obviously, since this appears in the printed works, it is not just
informal spoken  English.  I have read neither of those works, but I
must say that if I encountered similar patterns frequently in a given
book, I would soon stop reading that work.  Some patterns simply
irritate me.

> Does it have some other meaning?

No.  No nuance, no code.  The replacement of a more complicated
expression with a simpler one is just efficient use of language.   Or,
maybe, lazy editing.

> Besides, I wonder why the present can affect the past in this
> informal
> usage.

Not sure what you mean by this.  The past is always affected by the
present, as it is interpreted by living.  "History is written by
victors (or, say, "survivors").

> Could someone explain it for me??
Marius Hancu - 19 Jan 2010 16:20 GMT
> Why did she say: 「perhaps she would have had the hope to live if she
> knew he was still alive.」 instead of 「perhaps she would have had the
> hope to live if she had known he was still alive.」

Because "had known" creates by the very nature of the past perfect a
temporal precedence order which the writer wants to avoid. She means
that the knowing does not precede the moment of hope, but is
contemporaneous with it. She's talking about the knowing at that very
moment in time.

Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu - 19 Jan 2010 16:24 GMT
> Why did Maugham say: 「If he loved you enough he wouldn't have
> hesitated to do what you want." instead of 「If he had loved you enough
> he wouldn't have hesitated to do what you want.」

Same reason I gave you for the other one: IMHO, Maugham is afraid that
the past perfect would mean that the matter of "loving" precedes the
moment of deciding to do what she/he wanted.

Marius Hancu
Jerry Friedman - 19 Jan 2010 18:46 GMT
> Hello everyone
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> knew he was still alive.」 instead of 「perhaps she would have had the
> hope to live if she had known he was still alive.」

Just a non-standard construction.  As far as I can tell, the standard
construction "if she had known" is slowly disappearing from colloquial
American English, replaced by this one and "if she would have known",
and the same with other verbs.

> In Somerset Maugham's 「The Razor's Edge」, when Isabel's distressed and
> reproaches herself regretfully about her relationship with her lover.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> hesitated to do what you want." instead of 「If he had loved you enough
> he wouldn't have hesitated to do what you want.」

Because the present tense can refer to things that are true for long
periods of time.  The narrator could have said, "He doesn't love you
enough [now and in the past].  That's why he didn't do what you want
[what you wanted then and still want].

> I thumbed through some English grammar books (e.g. Practical English
> Usage), it reads as follows: 「Sometimes a simple past tense is used
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It's really just the informal usage in spoken English? That's all?

For the Lee example, yes.

> Does it have some other meaning?

Not that I see.

> Besides, I wonder why the present can affect the past in this informal
> usage.
>
> Could someone explain it for me??

It's not the present affecting the past; it's another way of talking
about one past time affecting (or not affecting) a later past time.

--
Jerry Friedman
 
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