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Australia: questions

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Marius Hancu - 20 Jan 2010 07:56 GMT
A student is asking:
----
At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' 'Paper or plastic?'
How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir
store?

When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?'
---
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
John Holmes - 20 Jan 2010 09:33 GMT
> A student is asking:
> ----
> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
> asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' 'Paper or plastic?'
> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir
> store?

Quite probably, unless you are already obviously proffering one or the
other. If you hand over a plastic card, they'll probably ask "Is that
credit or debit?"

> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
> question of 'Cod or haddock?'

Definitely not. We don't have those fish here. What fish is on offer
will depend on what part of the country you are in, and usually be
listed on a signboard above the fryer. About 4-5 varieties is the
average, but some up-market places might have a dozen or more. A long
way from the coast, the choice might be more restricted.

> 'Wrapped or open?'

Most places I've been put them in a cardboard tray in a white paper bag.
Some might still wrap them, but I can't remember when I last saw that.

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

annily - 20 Jan 2010 10:44 GMT
>> A student is asking:
>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> other. If you hand over a plastic card, they'll probably ask "Is that
> credit or debit?"

I would think that is more likely to be "credit or savings" as that is
how they are labelled on EPTPOS machines, along with "cheque", which is
probably used least.

Signature

Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.

Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 01:53 GMT
>>> A student is asking:
>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> how they are labelled on EPTPOS machines, along with "cheque", which is
> probably used least.

And, in fact, they don't very often bother to ask these days, because
the customer chooses the option her-/himself in most shops.

I don't think I've ever heard "cash" used as a question quite like that,
although one might offer it to a tradesman in the hope of getting a
discount, but so many of those now work for large companies that keep a
tight check on where they've been and what they've done, those sort of
cash jobs are no longer an option.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 04:55 GMT
...

>> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
>> question of 'Cod or haddock?'
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>average, but some up-market places might have a dozen or more. A long
>way from the coast, the choice might be more restricted.

Away from the coast you may not get a choice at all. In Canberra, most
take-aways offer a choice of battered, fried and grilled. 'Fish
cocktails" are also available. Same kind of white fish (probably
flake), just in smaller portions.

>> 'Wrapped or open?'
>
>Most places I've been put them in a cardboard tray in a white paper bag.
>Some might still wrap them, but I can't remember when I last saw that.

It is not uncommon to have the fish (and chips) placed in a cardboard
tray which is then wrapped, not bagged.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 11:03 GMT
> A student is asking:
> ----
> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
> asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?'

I'm rarely asked anything at all. More typically the checkout person
says something like "That comes to $56.30", and then sees whether you
hand over plastic or money. At the bigger supermarkets you can save time
by putting your credit or debit card through the machine while the
groceries are being scanned. It's then the machine that asks you
questions like "cheque, savings, or credit?". By the time the groceries
have been scanned, the operator already knows how you're paying.

The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume
you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a
credit card or a savings account card.

If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to
ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash at
the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract an
extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit card, but
it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card whether it's a
debit or a credit card.

> 'Paper or plastic?'

This had me confused at first, because I assumed that paper=money and
plastic=credit card. Then I remembered that in some countries you get a
choice between paper bags and plastic bags for your groceries.

We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The
supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to
phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is
something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next
time please bring your own bag."

> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir
> store?

A clothes shop doesn't work under the same time pressure. Once the sale
has been rung up, the most likely question will be "And how will you be
paying for that?"

> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
> question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?'

Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound quite
foreign to me.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Marius Hancu - 20 Jan 2010 11:22 GMT
> > When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
> > question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?'
>
> Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound quite
> foreign to me.

I think so.

Thank you all very much.

Enjoy the Australian Open! I do:-)
Marius Hancu
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 12:53 GMT
>The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume
>you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a
>credit card or a savings account card.

The following seems to be correct in general principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_card

   A Charge card is a plastic card that provides an alternative payment
   to cash when making purchases in which the issuer and the cardholder
   enter into an agreement that the debt incurred on the charge account
   will be paid in full and by due date (usually every thirty days) or
   be subject to severe late fees and/or restrictions on card use.

The first card I (in the UK) had was a Diners Club card. It was
generally referred to in conversation as a "credit card". It wasn't
until I got a Barclaycard (VISA) that I discovered that the DC card was
specifically known as a "charge card". Both types of card offered credit
as opposed to immediate payment of my money at the time of purchase.

The Diners Club (UK) website says: "We pioneered the credit card concept
over 50 years ago". However, the information with the application form
says:

   2. The Diners Club Card is a charge card and not a credit
      card. ...
   4. Statements detailing the balance on your account are issued
      monthly. Your balance must be paid in full within 30 days of the
      statement date to avoid paying service charges.

http://www.dinersclub.co.uk/

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 13:03 GMT
>> The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume
>> you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> http://www.dinersclub.co.uk/

Thanks. So the difference appears to lie in that "balance must be paid
in full" condition.

I have an American Express card that's like that. I probably should give
it up, given that there are few places in the known universe that are
willing to accept it.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

the Omrud - 20 Jan 2010 13:57 GMT
> I have an American Express card that's like that. I probably should give
> it up, given that there are few places in the known universe that are
> willing to accept it.

I have an American Express credit card (yes, it's a credit card) because
they give the best cashback.  It's surprisingly widely accepted in the
UK - all supermarkets, petrol stations, Amazon, etc.  It's only small
establishments, e.g. private restaurants or small shops, which don't
take it.

Signature

David

Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 14:20 GMT
> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to
> ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash at
> the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract an
> extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit card, but
> it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card whether it's a
> debit or a credit card.

Here in the US Midwest we have a card from a small regional bank. It can
be used as an ATM card or as a credit card (MasterCard), so I can select
either "Debit" or "Credit" -- but even if I select "Credit" the money
still comes straight out of the bank account.

We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against
the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents
a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around
anyway, even without the discount.

Perce
A.Clews@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk - 20 Jan 2010 15:47 GMT
> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
> has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against
> the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents
> a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around
> anyway, even without the discount.

Well, bully for you.  I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a
gallon for your gas-guzzlers, whereas here in the UK for example we are being
squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per
UK gallon.

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                                Andy Clews
                           University of Sussex
                *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 20 Jan 2010 16:01 GMT
> Thus spake Percival P. Cassidy (Nobody@notmyisp.net) unto the assembled
> multitudes:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Well, bully for you.  I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a
> gallon for your gas-guzzlers,

while bitching like hell about it,

>  whereas here in the UK for example we are being
> squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per
> UK gallon.

Signature

athel

Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 16:48 GMT
>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
>> has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against
>> the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents
>> a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around
>> anyway, even without the discount.

> Well, bully for you.  I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a
> gallon for your gas-guzzlers, whereas here in the UK for example we are being
> squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per
> UK gallon.

The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1
a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been
well over $3 a quasi-gallon.

Perce
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 19:39 GMT
On 01/20/10 11:48 am, I wrote:

>>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
>>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> $8.15 per
>> UK gallon.

> The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1
> a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been
> well over $3 a quasi-gallon.

And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
far better condition than the freeways in many parts of the USA (depends
where you are, I think; although the interstate freeways constitute a
nationwide system, maintenance and such things as speed limits are a
State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in
Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border. Michigan freeways are
considered to have especially bad road surfaces). If the area of the UK
with which I am most familiar (the South East) is anything to go by,
your street lighting is often better, you have well-illuminated
pedestrian crossings and traffic signs; you have internally illuminated
thingies on traffic islands at significant intersections (try cutting a
corner that has those!); you have traffic lights situated so that they
can be seen, rather than having one suspended over the intersection so
that it is hidden by the semi-trailer in front of you and you suddenly
find that you have run a red light (I'm talking about slow-moving
traffic, e.g., when the vehicle in front of me was waiting for oncoming
traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface
markings that last more than six months.

Perce
Ray O'Hara - 20 Jan 2010 20:37 GMT
On 01/20/10 11:48 am, I wrote:

>>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
>>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> $8.15 per
>> UK gallon.

> The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1
> a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been
> well over $3 a quasi-gallon.

And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
far better condition than the freeways in many parts of the USA (depends
where you are, I think; although the interstate freeways constitute a
nationwide system, maintenance and such things as speed limits are a
State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in
Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border. Michigan freeways are
considered to have especially bad road surfaces). If the area of the UK
with which I am most familiar (the South East) is anything to go by,
your street lighting is often better, you have well-illuminated
pedestrian crossings and traffic signs; you have internally illuminated
thingies on traffic islands at significant intersections (try cutting a
corner that has those!); you have traffic lights situated so that they
can be seen, rather than having one suspended over the intersection so
that it is hidden by the semi-trailer in front of you and you suddenly
find that you have run a red light (I'm talking about slow-moving
traffic, e.g., when the vehicle in front of me was waiting for oncoming
traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface
markings that last more than six months.

Perce

==========================================================================

Of course when I-95 hits  the NY border you are in a heavily urbanized area
where going any faster than 55 is extemely dangerous.
But then why let little details like driving through NYC a city of nearly 9
million people get in the way of a good rant.
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 21:00 GMT
> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in
> Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border.

<snip>

> Of course when I-95 hits the NY border you are in a heavily urbanized area
> where going any faster than 55 is extemely dangerous.
> But then why let little details like driving through NYC a city of nearly 9
> million people get in the way of a good rant.

The NY/CT boundary is still a way out of NYC -- about the same
population density both sides of the line. The 55mph speed limit on I-95
in NY isn't because it's close to NYC; it's because NY State has decided
that its freeway speed limit shall be 55mph -- even out in the boonies;
at least, it was when we lived there.

Perce
Ray O'Hara - 21 Jan 2010 01:04 GMT
>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Perce

That entire southwest corner of Ct down to Northern Jersey what Cters and
Jersyites call the Tri-State Region{no NYer ever uses that term} is heavily
populated.
Percival P. Cassidy - 21 Jan 2010 01:46 GMT
>>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
>>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> freeway speed limit shall be 55mph -- even out in the boonies; at least,
>> it was when we lived there.

>   That entire southwest corner of Ct down to Northern Jersey what Cters and
> Jersyites call the Tri-State Region{no NYer ever uses that term} is heavily
> populated.

So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the
freeway speed limit increases to 70mph? Unless things have changed since
I lived there (and unless my memory is failing me), the speed limit does
not change until I reach Pennsylvania.

Perce
Glenn Knickerbocker - 21 Jan 2010 03:03 GMT
> So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the
> freeway speed limit increases to 70mph?

Indiana.  All the Northeastern states still have 65 as the highest.
That you'll reach as soon as you get to the Turnpike, since 1998.

¬R
sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 06:00 GMT
> > So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the
> > freeway speed limit increases to 70mph?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ¬R

Indiana is both south of New York and farther west than Michigan
(which has 70 mph speed limits and is west of NYC).  Kentucky's
another state east of Indiana that has a 70 mph limit.  To me,
Michigan is the clear answer to the question--if you're willing to
drive south as well (as you'd need to do to admit Indiana), West
Virginia is the nearest state to NY with a 70 mph speed limit.  Along
the east coast, North Carolina is the state farthest north with such a
limit.
Mark Brader - 21 Jan 2010 07:56 GMT
> > > So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the
> > > freeway speed limit increases to 70mph?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> another state east of Indiana that has a 70 mph limit.  To me,
> Michigan is the clear answer...

Here, will this do?

      http://www.hldi.org/laws/mapmaxspeedonruralinterstates.aspx
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto   |  "I shot a query into the net.
msb@vex.net            |   I haven't got an answer yet..."  --Ed Nather

Glenn Knickerbocker - 21 Jan 2010 14:15 GMT
>Indiana is both south of New York and farther west than Michigan

Uh, Kokomo is almost directly west of New York City.  I-80 goes across
the northern edge of Indiana and not to Michigan at all.  To drive to
eastern Michigan, you'd start out going north from NYC, not west.

¬R  "Carl Sagan is more educational than J.R.R. Tolkien even though they
were both total stoners." K.  http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/cosmic.html
the Omrud - 21 Jan 2010 22:07 GMT
> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface
> markings that last more than six months.

Bollards.

Signature

David

Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 22:45 GMT
>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Bollards.

No, it's really true.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

the Omrud - 21 Jan 2010 22:46 GMT
>>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes.
>>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>
> No, it's really true.

Ba-boom.  I sets 'em up ...

Signature

David

A.Clews@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk - 21 Jan 2010 09:18 GMT
> The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1
> a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been
> well over $3 a quasi-gallon.

My heart positively bleeds for you.

Signature

                                Andy Clews
                           University of Sussex
                *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***

tony cooper - 20 Jan 2010 19:33 GMT
>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name
>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per
>UK gallon.

Oh, don't we wish!  Little more than a dollar?  The current price in
Orlando is about $2.72 per gallon.  Each county in each state will
have different gas prices depending on local taxes.  Just 15 miles up
the road in Volusia County gas is $2.85 a gallon.  

Still better than the UK, though.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Pat Durkin - 20 Jan 2010 15:52 GMT
>> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely
>> to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> can select either "Debit" or "Credit" -- but even if I select
> "Credit" the money still comes straight out of the bank account.

I found out after many years of use that my credit union debit card
charges one dollar each for transactions above twelve per month.  When
I called and asked about it, the representative suggested I use the
debit card (it's a Visa) as a credit card.  Well, that requires a
signature, and is a major slow-down in a crowded shopping line.  I
haven't figured out how I used it so often, since I truly limit my
trips to stores. Shopping?  Ugh!  So I just carry more cash.  A
one-time withdrawal is easier to keep track of than taking cash out at
check-out.

> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the
> name of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank,
> IIRC). This has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping
> the card against the card reader.
That sounds good to me.
tony cooper - 20 Jan 2010 19:37 GMT
>>> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely
>>> to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>one-time withdrawal is easier to keep track of than taking cash out at
>check-out.

What gets me is that it seems that every store has a different system.
We use only a credit card.  Some stores do not require a signature if
the purchase is $25 or less.  Some stores require a signature on every
purchase, some add a requirement of showing a driver's license, some
want to see the security number on the back of the card, and some want
to visually check the expiration date.  

It's worth extra time, though, since we get a rebate on our credit
card purchases.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 19:26 GMT
Marius Hancu:
> > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
> > asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?'

Peter Moylan:
> At the bigger supermarkets you can save time by putting your credit
> or debit card through the machine while the groceries are being scanned.

Interesting.  I don't do that myself, but looking at the people holding
up the line in front of me, I don't think you can do that here.

> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings,
> or credit?".

Hmm.  When North American ATMs ask which bank account you want to
access, it's "checking"# or "savings".  "Check" only refers to the
piece of paper that we fill out to send someone money from the account.
Is what we call a "checking account", and I gather the British call a
"current account", known in Australia as a "check account", then?

#Or "chequing", if you must.  Blech.

> > 'Paper or plastic?'

> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The
> supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to
> phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is
> something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next
> time please bring your own bag."

Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it.

Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more recently
the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy reusable bags you
could buy, with signs appealing to your environmental conscience.  Last
year City Council debated banning the disposable plastic bags, but
instead came up with the idea of banning *free* ones.  Now you can have
as many disposable bags at the supermarket as you like, but they have
to charge 5 cents each.  And suddenly the cashiers are actually willing
to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you
twice as many as you needed, just in case.
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msb@vex.net      |       Do not run on the stairs
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Cheryl - 20 Jan 2010 19:49 GMT
> Marius Hancu:

>> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The
>> supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you
> twice as many as you needed, just in case.

Our two major grocery chains announced with a big fanfare a few months
back that they'd be charging for plastic bags in the future and by the
way, they had a nice assortment of re-usable bags you could buy or win
in a giveaway etc etc. Many more people started bringing their own bags,
although there were quite predictably slowdowns in checking out because
your average member of the general public isn't as fast as a checkout
clerk in filling the bags, and it's awkward positioning bags of various
sizes and types in the loading area, if that's what you call it,
designed for the plastic bags. This period of adjustment was followed by
the posting of big signs pointing out that you couldn't use your own
bags to collect the goods in; they could only be used after you paid for
them, and finally, during Christmas, by an announcement by one chain
that they would, in the spirit of the season, not charge 5 cents for the
plastic bags. I don't know if they've started charging again; I expect
they have. The initial enthusiasm of the customers for re-usable bags
seems to have died down a bit.

Meanwhile, in my pile of miscellaneous re-usable bags, I have at least
one bag with the logo of one of the chains dating back to the last time
they decided to be concerned about the environment and discourage the
use of plastic bags. I feel like I'm already seeing too many cycles of
this sort of thing. I'm not old enough to feel like that!

But none of them instruct their cashiers to tell you 'bring your own bag
next time'. The cashiers are impressively polite, if highly scripted, in
their dealings with the public, and simply ask if you want to use their
plastic bags or if you've brought your own.

Signature

Cheryl

R H Draney - 20 Jan 2010 20:35 GMT
Mark Brader filted:

>Hmm.  When North American ATMs ask which bank account you want to
>access, it's "checking"# or "savings".  "Check" only refers to the
>piece of paper that we fill out to send someone money from the account.
>Is what we call a "checking account", and I gather the British call a
>"current account", known in Australia as a "check account", then?

The industry prefers (or used to) the terms "demand deposit" and "time deposit"
respectively....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Tasha Miller - 20 Jan 2010 20:47 GMT
> Marius Hancu:
>>> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> #Or "chequing", if you must.  Blech.

Nope, we call them cheque accounts. No check, checking or chequing.

>>> 'Paper or plastic?'
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it.

I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each I
certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic supermarket
bags as rubbish bags between the kitchen and rubbish bins so it annoys me to
have to pay extra for them from shops which usually have shelves groaning
with assorted single-use plastic bags for sale, anyway.
Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 02:02 GMT
> I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each I
> certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic
> supermarket bags as rubbish bags between the kitchen and rubbish bins so
> it annoys me to have to pay extra for them from shops which usually have
> shelves groaning with assorted single-use plastic bags for sale, anyway.

The plastic bag ban hasn't reached us yet, but it's on its way. I
suppose this means I will now have to buy plastic bin liners. A lot of
good that will do to save the whales or whatever, most of which are
endangered not by bags, but by fishing lines and dead nets.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Cheryl - 21 Jan 2010 11:26 GMT
>> I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each
>> I certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> good that will do to save the whales or whatever, most of which are
> endangered not by bags, but by fishing lines and dead nets.

Our most recent local anti-plastic-bag campaigns got a lot of mileage
over the effort to connect two bits of a very popular hiking trail. The
missing bit ran between the city dump (it's probably a regional dump
now; there are long and tedious debates about disposing of garbage and
which communities shouldn't be doing it themselves any more and should
be trucking their waste to larger, more modern dumps) and the ocean.
Decades worth of plastic bags were tangled in the bushes, in the
undergrowth and even through the exposed (and probably not exposed) bits
of the root systems). To do the city credit, they had tried building a
fence, but it didn't help; the winds are too high. And I guess they
couldn't bury or whatever they do fast enough.

I also reuse those bags, for garbage, to carry things in...I've given
some to a friend with a small child for diaper disposal after she
started running short when the supermarket stopped giving them out for
free. I give some to the library to give patrons on wet days when they
forgot their own bags. I dispose of cat litter.

They never get only one use.

Signature

Cheryl

Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:12 GMT
>>> I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each
>>> I certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> They never get only one use.

It is, however, of scientific interest why so many town dumps are built
in places with high winds. Or, maybe, they attract wind - a new form of
green energy?

Signature

Rob Bannister

Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 23:23 GMT
> Peter Moylan:

>> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings,
>> or credit?".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> #Or "chequing", if you must.  Blech.

We call it a "cheque account", and the ATMs offer the options "savings"
and "cheque". (The "credit" option doesn't exist in ATMs for a cash
withdrawal. It possibly does exist in some other submenu, but it's been
ages since I used a credit card in an ATM. The "credit" option does, of
course, appear when you put [1] a card in a supermarket card reader.)
Cheques are dying a natural death, though, so cheque accounts might
disappear in the foreseeable future.

The "savings"/"cheque" option is probably obsolescent in any case. I've
just taken a look at the personal and business account types offered by
my building society, and none of them is called a cheque account. A
chequebook is, however, an available option when you have a savings
account. I could get one with my own account if I wanted, but I need
cheques so rarely that there's no point. Once or twice a year I might
need a cheque, and then I just ask the building society to write it out
for me, which they'll happily do with no charge.

Somebody mentioned having to sign when using a card. Here that is done
only when you've forgotten your PIN, or at smaller places where they
don't have an electronic card scanner.

[1] The better card scanners have two ways to insert the card: one to
scan the magnetic strip, one to read the embedded chip. I've just
noticed that neither my credit card nor my savings account card has a
chip. I'd better sort that out before the magnetic strip becomes obsolete.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 23:38 GMT
> The "savings"/"cheque" option is probably obsolescent in any case. I've
> just taken a look at the personal and business account types offered by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> need a cheque, and then I just ask the building society to write it out
> for me, which they'll happily do with no charge.

Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a
great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line.
Some stores used to have cash registers in which a blank check could be
inserted to have the payee, amount and date printed automatically; all
the customer had to do was sign it; that facility seems to have
disappeared, so payment by cheque takes much longer than simply swiping
or tapping a card.

Perce
Cheryl - 21 Jan 2010 00:54 GMT
> Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a
> great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> disappeared, so payment by cheque takes much longer than simply swiping
> or tapping a card.

The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a
lot of the other big stores don't either. You can still mail a cheque to
pay a bill (although I tend to do so electronically) or pay money to a
charity or small social group or something similar.

Most of the bigger charities now seem to be set up for online donations,
although you can usually find out where to send a cheque if you want to.
I was a little startled to find out that they take credit cards. It
seems a bit odd to borrow money to donate, but that seems to be how a
lot of people do things these days.
Signature

Cheryl

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 05:49 GMT
> > Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a
> > great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> pay a bill (although I tend to do so electronically) or pay money to a
> charity or small social group or something similar.

FWIW, living in the US, I have yet to find a major grocery store that
doesn't accept checks--everywhere from Ralph's to Whole Foods, Food
Lion, Harris Teeter, Safeway, Giant, Hannaford, Shop'n'Save, Giant
Eagle, Shaw's, and Piggly Wiggly, etc still take paper checks.

Most of them require ID (sometimes multiple forms), but they're pretty
much the last remaining place outside of monthly bills (utilities and
landlords), charities, and banks where you can pay with a check.
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 12:13 GMT
>> Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and
>> a great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a
> lot of the other big stores don't either.

I once discovered that Coles will take a cheque, but only if you apply
about a month before you plan to write the cheque. It takes them that
long to do a credit check on you. That was back in the days when most
people still had cheque books. The policy could have changed by now.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 23:19 GMT
...

>The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a
>lot of the other big stores don't either. You can still mail a cheque to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>seems a bit odd to borrow money to donate, but that seems to be how a
>lot of people do things these days.

Charities often ring us and ask for a donation over the phone. They
don't understand why we don't want to give them credit card details
over the phone*. Makes me wonder how many others do.

*When they called us not when we called them.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:03 GMT
> ...
>> The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> *When they called us not when we called them.

My mother had a call like that recently - she thought, and I agreed,
that it must have been a scam. They called her, they had a name neither
of us recognized, but it included 'Leukemia', which killed a relative
and which another relative now has, so she thought she'd like to donate.
They refused to send her any information in the mail so she could send
them a cheque (she LIKES using cheques; she uses cheques to pay
businesses and people I've been paying electronically for years). They
offered instead to transfer her to a 'secure line' so she could give
them her credit card information. She refused.

Signature

Cheryl

Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 23:30 GMT
>Marius Hancu:
>> > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Interesting.  I don't do that myself, but looking at the people holding
>up the line in front of me, I don't think you can do that here.

It doesn't save all that much time but you can put the card and wallet
away (if using a PIN) and be ready to "okay" the amount.

>> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings,
>> or credit?".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>#Or "chequing", if you must.  Blech.

Blech all you like, on this side the ambiguity of "check" always trips
us up somewhat.

>> > 'Paper or plastic?'
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next
>> time please bring your own bag."

I've never been told "next time ...". The bagger doesn't really care.

>Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you
>twice as many as you needed, just in case.

I've seen discussion where people have gone off on a rant about how
the shops are making profits on the bag surcharge, totally ignoring
the argument that it is a punitive charge aimed at encouraging people
to re-use bags "going forward".

When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of
non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free
advertising.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Nick Spalding - 22 Jan 2010 10:54 GMT
Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com>
on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100:

> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of
> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free
> advertising.

When they started being used here in Ireland there was a report of
someone being seen gazing at the pyramids carrying one from my local
shop.  
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Mike Lyle - 22 Jan 2010 20:16 GMT
> Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com>
> on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> someone being seen gazing at the pyramids carrying one from my local
> shop.

A fit companion piece to the London Borough of Lewisham wheelie bin
found in the Sea of Galilee.

I use one of those IKEA bags as an overnight case, but so far only when
travelling by car: I don't think I've yet used one on a train.

Signature

Mike.

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 22 Jan 2010 20:43 GMT
>> Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com>
>> on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>A fit companion piece to the London Borough of Lewisham wheelie bin
>found in the Sea of Galilee.

It's a miracle. Praise the Lord!

(Sorry about that. Got a bit carried away. I blame Stephen Baldwin who
is currently in the UK Celebrity Big Brother House. He is in almost full
Gospelizing, Evangelizing mode.
http://www.stephenbaldwin.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Baldwin

He is up for eviction from the BB house tonight. If the public vote goes
against him and he leaves it will be all part of God's plan. OTOH if he
stays it will be all part of God's plan.)

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud - 22 Jan 2010 18:55 GMT
> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of
> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free
> advertising.

We take care to use apparently exotic bags.  Morrison's bags in the
Languedoc, Carrefour bags in Warrington.

Signature

David

Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 01:03 GMT
>> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of
>> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free
>> advertising.
>
> We take care to use apparently exotic bags.  Morrison's bags in the
> Languedoc, Carrefour bags in Warrington.

You're one up on me. I use the Coles bags in Woolworths, and the
Woolworths bags in Coles.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:05 GMT
>>> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of
>>> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>You're one up on me. I use the Coles bags in Woolworths, and the
>Woolworths bags in Coles.

I did a swap with my mother when she was up here. I took her Age bag
and gave her ... I can't remember, but it was ordinary here but
unknown in Victoria.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Evan Kirshenbaum - 22 Jan 2010 05:28 GMT
> Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more
> recently the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you twice as many as
> you needed, just in case.

If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
apiece:

  http://www.restockit.com/Plastic-T-Sacks-Bags-.html

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |If to "man" a phone implies handing
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |it over to a person of the male
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |gender, then to "monitor" it
                                      |suggests handing it over to a
   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com             |lizard.
   (650)857-7572                      |               Rohan Oberoi

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 18:45 GMT
> > Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more
> > recently the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you twice as many as
> > you needed, just in case.

The stores I go to absolutely don't charge for shopping bags, no sir
or ma'am.  But you get a five-cent credit for every bag you bring in.
(Whole Foods asks whether you want the credit or want to donate it to
their charity of the month.)

> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
> apiece:
>
>    http://www.restockit.com/Plastic-T-Sacks-Bags-.html

Think of the poor dead dinosaurs!  Can you get paper bags and think
about the poor dead trees?

--
Jerry Friedman is never clear on what the environmentally correct
thing to do is.
Mike Lyle - 22 Jan 2010 20:21 GMT
[...]

>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
>> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Think of the poor dead dinosaurs!  Can you get paper bags and think
> about the poor dead trees?

Never mind the puir wee deid dinosaurs, think of the present marine
environment so many of those bags seem to end up killing. Please get the
rapidly-degrading ones.

Signature

Mike.

Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:04 GMT
> [...]
>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> environment so many of those bags seem to end up killing. Please get the
> rapidly-degrading ones.

I have never seen a marine or a marine creature killed by a plastic bag.
Fishing lines and nets are the killers, and some of those deep, free
trawl nets go on killing fish for years. My supermarket's plastic bags
degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to
the car.
Signature


Rob Bannister

Cheryl - 23 Jan 2010 12:43 GMT
>> [...]
>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to
> the car.

Plastic loops are really bad. I've heard of the problem for years, but
it was brought home recently when a wild duck got one stuck around its
head and bill so it couldn't eat. It died before local bird enthusiasts
were able to rescue it.

Signature

Cheryl

tony cooper - 23 Jan 2010 14:35 GMT
>>> [...]
>>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>head and bill so it couldn't eat. It died before local bird enthusiasts
>were able to rescue it.

Six-packs of beer and soda are sold with a piece of plastic with six
holes in it to keep the cans together as a package.  Fishermen toss
them in the water, and diving birds become enmeshed in them.  It isn't
uncommon to see a bird with a plastic necklace like this:
http://www.jrcompton.com/photos/The_Birds/J/Jan-08/J106346-sixpack-duck.jpg

I've seen less of this type of packaging lately.  Six-packs are now
more likely to be shrink-wrapped in clear plastic.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 23 Jan 2010 13:41 GMT
>> [...]
>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to
>the car.

Here are a couple of articles about the "plastic bag soup" in the
Pacific ocean:
http://international-environmental-affairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/plastic_soup
_in_the_pacific_ocean


   Plastic Soup in the Pacific Ocean
   Sea of Trash Spans Area Twice the Size of Continental United States
   
   ....
   ....
   Why this Plastic Soup is so Dangerous
   
   Plastic is a synthetic material that is not biodegradable, and
   cannot be digested by any living thing. The plastic in the ocean can
   only photodegrade, which means it is broken into smaller pieces by
   the sun’s rays, but it never goes away.
   
   This means that the plastic eventually becomes a plastic dust which
   mixes with the ocean, and now outnumbers zooplankton, the natural
   food, 6 to 1 in the North Pacific Central Gyre.
   
   This plastic is mistaken for food by marine animals, and will make
   them feel full even though they gain no nutrients from the plastic
   and their bodies cannot digest it. The plastic can also block their
   digestive track, leading to starvation.
   
   All of the toxins entering the food cycle through plastic are a
   danger for human life as well, because a lot of our diet comes from
   the sea.
   
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-t
hat-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html


   ....
   ....
   According to the UN Environment Programme, plastic debris causes the
   deaths of more than a million seabirds every year, as well as more
   than 100,000 marine mammals. Syringes, cigarette lighters and
   toothbrushes have been found inside the stomachs of dead seabirds,
   which mistake them for food.
   
   Plastic is believed to constitute 90 per cent of all rubbish
   floating in the oceans. The UN Environment Programme estimated in
   2006 that every square mile of ocean contains 46,000 pieces of
   floating plastic,
   
   Dr Eriksen said the slowly rotating mass of rubbish-laden water
   poses a risk to human health, too. Hundreds of millions of tiny
   plastic pellets, or nurdles – the raw materials for the plastic
   industry – are lost or spilled every year, working their way into
   the sea. These pollutants act as chemical sponges attracting
   man-made chemicals such as hydrocarbons and the pesticide DDT. They
   then enter the food chain. "What goes into the ocean goes into these
   animals and onto your dinner plate. It's that simple," said Dr
   Eriksen.

Even allowing for "campaigning exaggeration" there does seem to be a
problem.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:14 GMT
>>> [...]
>>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>    
> http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-t
hat-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html

> Even allowing for "campaigning exaggeration" there does seem to be a
> problem.

I am not denying that. I am simply denying that the plastic problem is
directly linked to plastic shopping bags and neither of the above
articles addresses this - they are about plastic rubbish in general.
There are a whole lot of unnecessary plastic items, particularly
wrapping, around, including the now disappearing 6-pack rings Tony
mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but
most shopping bags are re-used, often several times.
Signature


Rob Bannister

Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 12:58 GMT
> I am not denying that. I am simply denying that the plastic problem is
> directly linked to plastic shopping bags and neither of the above
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but
> most shopping bags are re-used, often several times.

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but this seems to have
some photos and information:

http://www.nlen.ca/Reducing_Plastic_Bag_Use_in_St.John%27s-R.Harvey.pdf

Speaking from my own general impression, local debate seems to focus on
the mess they make, not on their danger to wildlife. But it does seem
that some wildlife try to eat them.

And I'm with you on the re-use of plastic shopping bags.

Signature

Cheryl

Mike Lyle - 25 Jan 2010 22:21 GMT
>>>>> On Jan 21, 11:28 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com>
>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but
> most shopping bags are re-used, often several times.
Oh, come on! I mentioned plastic bags because it was plastic bags that
were the subjec t of the conversation. And starch-filler ones (I think
that's the recipe) do less harm than the other kind.

Signature

Mike.

Robert Bannister - 25 Jan 2010 23:26 GMT
>>>>>> On Jan 21, 11:28 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> were the subjec t of the conversation. And starch-filler ones (I think
> that's the recipe) do less harm than the other kind.

Hey, I wasn't getting at you, but at the people who blast plastic bags
regularly in the media. Plus Peter Garrett who didn't even acknowledge
receipt of my letter.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Mike Lyle - 27 Jan 2010 20:48 GMT
[...]
>>> --
>> Oh, come on! I mentioned plastic bags because it was plastic bags
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> regularly in the media. Plus Peter Garrett who didn't even acknowledge
> receipt of my letter.

Oh, right. Sorry.

Signature

Mike.

Default User - 22 Jan 2010 20:26 GMT
> If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own.
> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
> apiece:

I don't really like plastic bags much. Unlike others here, none of my
wastebaskets are small enough for the grocery bags to be usable as
liners. I use a few to bring cans of soda into work, but I have many
more that accumulate, even though I have a couple of the reusable cloth
bags. Those are nice, but I have a problem with forgetting to put them
in the Bronco.

Brian

Signature

Day 354 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

Evan Kirshenbaum - 22 Jan 2010 22:17 GMT
>> If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own.
>> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> liners. I use a few to bring cans of soda into work, but I have many
> more that accumulate,

Ours end their lives on litter-box detail.  We have two litter boxes
(one upstairs and one downstairs), and it's easiest to grab one of
these bags, scoop the two boxes, tie them off, and drop them into the
garbage.  (Actually, into a separate closed bucket.)

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 21:40 GMT
>>> If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own.
>>> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>these bags, scoop the two boxes, tie them off, and drop them into the
>garbage.  (Actually, into a separate closed bucket.)

My wife tells me that the refuse collectors are recycling some of our
bags back to us.  The council supplies a wheely bin for garden
rubbish, a clear sack for plastic bottles, a small box for paper and a
purple sack for non-recyclable rubbish.  They empty the bin and box,
and take those sacks away.  But they also expect us to recycle cans
and bottles, which we put outside in carrier bags or other plastic
bags.  These are emptied into the truck and the bags thrown back into
the garden.  They also expect us to recycle cardboard boxes, which
they do not collect from the house.  We give them to the dog, who
tears them into purple-bag-sized chunks with some alacrity.
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(BrE)
Herts, England

Tasha Miller - 20 Jan 2010 20:38 GMT
>> A student is asking:
>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> groceries have been scanned, the operator already knows how you're
> paying.

Yes. We can also scan some loyalty cards such as Fly Buys ahead so all we
have to do before the paper receipt starts pouring out of the printer is tap
out our PIN. The last question we are asked at a checkout counter is "PIN or
sign?" because some people don't have a PIN on their credit card and have to
physically sign the shop's copy of the EFT/POS receipt.

> The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I
> assume you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those
> either a credit card or a savings account card.

If the shop has their own credit card or store card (aka charge card) the
sales assistant will ask if we have it by name, as in "Do you have your Myer
Card?". They will also ask if we have a loyalty card and, if not and it's
during a membership drive for either, offer to sign us up for one right
there and then.

> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to
> ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next
> time please bring your own bag."

In Victoria Coles and Target make us buy plastic bags if we haven't brought
our own, while Woolworths and Kmart aren't as sanctimonious and do what
they've always done, which is to  include the cost of the bags in the price
of their goods. The boot of my car is full of "green" bags in various
colours. Apart from the zipped supermarket chiller bags most of them are
free bags picked up at events so they provide a mini-historical record of my
wanderings over the last year or so.

>> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir
>> store?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
>> question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?'

"Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the generic fish
and chip shop name for several species of shark, but usually the gummy
shark. Other species are available.)  You might be asked if you want your
fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or pineapple
rings?"

> Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound
> quite foreign to me.

The "Cod or haddock" sounds British to me.
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 23:36 GMT
>>> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
>>> question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?'
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> want your fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or
> pineapple rings?"

This varies by region, partly because of variations in the locally
available fish species and partly because of varying perceptions about
the acceptability of shark meat. Flake is indeed a common option in
Victoria, but I've rarely seen it on offer in NSW.

The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
potato cakes in NSW you'll get a blank stare, because they're called
scallops here. If you want the things that Victorians call scallops, you
have to ask explicitly for Tasmanian scallops. One of those traps that
travellers often fall into.

(If you see "bugs" as an option, order them. Delicious. Usually you have
to go to a seafood restaurant rather than a fish shop to get them, though.)

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Amethyst Deceiver - 24 Jan 2010 18:58 GMT
>The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
>potato cakes in NSW you'll get a blank stare, because they're called
>scallops here. If you want the things that Victorians call scallops, you
>have to ask explicitly for Tasmanian scallops. One of those traps that
>travellers often fall into.

I was very confused the first time I went the chippy here in West
Yorkshire. I was asked if I wanted a scallop with my haddock and
chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a
shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried.
the Omrud - 24 Jan 2010 19:12 GMT
>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a
> shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried.

Yep, that one threw me when visiting Wife's home.  The other problem was
the chip shop which only sold Fish, Chips, Pies and "Jumbo".  Turned out
that Jumbo was a large fish.

We once stopped at a chip shop in the Pennines, on our way home.  We
explained that we were driving back to Manchester at which point the
lady told us that when we reached the "border" (between Yorshire and
Lancashire), the chips would "go sour".

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David

Amethyst Deceiver - 24 Jan 2010 19:50 GMT
>>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>>> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>the chip shop which only sold Fish, Chips, Pies and "Jumbo".  Turned out
>that Jumbo was a large fish.

And I was offered the choice of a white or brown tea cake for my chip
butty once. Again, confused southerner was confused.

>We once stopped at a chip shop in the Pennines, on our way home.  We
>explained that we were driving back to Manchester at which point the
>lady told us that when we reached the "border" (between Yorshire and
>Lancashire), the chips would "go sour".

I'd be surprised if they lasted long enough to make it to the border.
Around here they hardly last long enough to get from teh chippy to the
house.
Nick - 24 Jan 2010 21:38 GMT
>>The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>>Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a
> shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried.

When my (Lancashire) mum used to cook those for our Saturday tea she
called them "Scotch Scallops".

Googling on SSs produces a lot of recipes involving potato, but all the
ones I looked at included mince or onions or both, and weren't battered
or deep fried.

You know, I'm fancying one of those right now!
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Frank ess - 25 Jan 2010 00:02 GMT
>>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by
>>> region. Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> You know, I'm fancying one of those right now!

One of my raised-in-Utah mother's once-a-fortnight dishes was
"scalloped potatoes". Sliced, covered with a cream-of-mushroom sauce,
topped with sharp Cheddar, and baked uncovered. By the time there was
browning of the cheese, the potatoes were cooked. I see the item
listed on menus in some chain restaurants, and what the kitchen
produces seems to do without mushroom or cheese. Don't rememer ever
seeing onion in them at home or out.

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Frank ess

Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:14 GMT
>>The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>>Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a
>shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried.

The potato slice is shaped like a scallop shell (sort of), so I think
the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato
cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

annily - 27 Jan 2010 04:52 GMT
>>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region.
>>> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato
> cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders.

"potato cake" is also common in South Australia (at least it was when I
last visited fish and chip shops).

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
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Bob Martin - 27 Jan 2010 07:37 GMT
>On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver

>>I was very confused the first time I went the chippy here in West
>>Yorkshire. I was asked if I wanted a scallop with my haddock and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato
>cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders.

Isn't "scallop" just short-hand?  I always knew them as scalloped potatoes.
Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 13:58 GMT
>>On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Isn't "scallop" just short-hand?  I always knew them as scalloped potatoes.

That's what I've always called them. For something that tastes so
good, IMO, they are easy to make. From scratch, of course.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 27 Jan 2010 14:11 GMT
>>On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Isn't "scallop" just short-hand?  I always knew them as scalloped potatoes.

They are also know as "potato scallops" in some places.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT
> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the generic
> fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but usually the
> gummy shark. Other species are available.)  You might be asked if you
> want your fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or
> pineapple rings?"

I don't even see "flake" any more. Most fish and chip places seem to
have gone in for correct names, which can cause a little confusion for
interstate travellers since many fish have different names in different
states. Still, if you just ask for "one serve of fish and chips", shark
is what you'll get most of the time - I say "most of the time", because
occasionally shark gets more expensive than whatever the local fish is.

> The "Cod or haddock" sounds British to me.

We do have a few fish that include "cod" in their name, but they are no
relation to the Atlantic cod. Haddock is definitely non-Australian. Ours
will mainly have dhufish, snapper and shark with maybe cobbler,
swordfish and groper if it's a bigger shop with a larger menu. South
Australian chippies have snoek and garfish to frighten visitors with.
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Rob Bannister

annily - 21 Jan 2010 05:44 GMT
>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> swordfish and groper if it's a bigger shop with a larger menu. South
> Australian chippies have snoek and garfish to frighten visitors with.

That used to be "snook" in my younger days. I think "snook" and "snoek"
can actually refer to different species, depending on the state.
Certainly the entries in the Macquarie Dictionary are different,
although with some overlap.

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.

Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT
>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Certainly the entries in the Macquarie Dictionary are different,
> although with some overlap.

Sorry, I'm sure you're right about snook. I also omitted S.A.
"butterfish" - I never did know what they are called elsewhere, but they
taste okay.

I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring
roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an
oddity of the West?

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Rob Bannister

Richard Bollard - 22 Jan 2010 02:57 GMT
>I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
>I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
>hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring
>roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an
>oddity of the West?

I've heard tell that it was Chinese for "small snack" but that may not
be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dim_sim

I prefer them steamed but they are normally only fried hereabouts.
Melbourne, when I lived there, was the home of the steamed dim sim.
Takeaways would have a double boiler sitting on the hot plate from
which they could be dispensed when wanted. They went into a lined
paper bag that held up against the soy sauce. Yum.

You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water
and turn them at half-time).
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2010 22:39 GMT
>>I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
>>I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water
>and turn them at half-time).

A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food
shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere
near as good as the stuff that those Chinese restaurants that bother
to serve dim sum make themselves.  I must have found half a dozen
shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was
all from one manufacturer, and not very good.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 17:59 GMT
> A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food
> shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere
> near as good as the stuff that those Chinese restaurants that bother
> to serve dim sum make themselves.  I must have found half a dozen
> shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was
> all from one manufacturer, and not very good.

There's a guy in Palo Alto who makes his own.  When I was at Stanford
in the '80s, his restaurant (including kitchen) was about the size of
a decent-sized bedroom and had seating for about three.  (He since
acquired the tiny space next door and now has seating for about
eight.)  Anyway, in addition to serving food, mainly to go, he had a
freezer chest at the front of the store, and if you were lucky (you
never knew what might be there), you could buy several dozen bao or
pot stickers or other dumplings.  For those of us in dorm rooms with
no kitchens, but electric steamers, Cho's bao was nearly as common as
Domino's pizza late at night, and tasted way better.

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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 21:48 GMT
>> A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food
>> shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>no kitchens, but electric steamers, Cho's bao was nearly as common as
>Domino's pizza late at night, and tasted way better.

I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I
found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook.  It literally took me all day,
the results were fairly tasty, but it was exhausting.  Like sushi, I
think it's better to sit back and let the experts prepare it for you.

I checked a couple of takeaway menus recently, and each had a couple
of dim sums as "starters", but you still have to get into London's
Chinatown (from here) to find a restaurant that serves 20 or so
different ones as a complete lunch.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 22:24 GMT
> I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I
> found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook.  It literally took me all
> day, the results were fairly tasty, but it was exhausting.  Like
> sushi, I think it's better to sit back and let the experts prepare
> it for you.

We've done it a couple of times for dinner parties, but as you say,
it's a *lot* of work.

> I checked a couple of takeaway menus recently, and each had a couple
> of dim sums as "starters", but you still have to get into London's
> Chinatown (from here) to find a restaurant that serves 20 or so
> different ones as a complete lunch.

So is "dim sum" a count noun where you are?  Saying "dim sums" sounds
to me like talking about "sushis".

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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 22:38 GMT
>> I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I
>> found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook.  It literally took me all
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>So is "dim sum" a count noun where you are?  Saying "dim sums" sounds
>to me like talking about "sushis".

Probably not.  
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT
>>>I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
>>>I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was
>all from one manufacturer, and not very good.

The ones in the supermarket are all from the one, bland manufacturer
(and these are the same as most hamburger joints fry). Asian grocery
stores are increasingly stocking a great range of
frozen-things-in-wrappers that can be steamed.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 14:05 GMT
snip

>> I must have found half a dozen
>>shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>stores are increasingly stocking a great range of
>frozen-things-in-wrappers that can be steamed.

What are your favourites and are you sure the ingredients in these
frozen-things-in-wrappers, bought from the supermarket you frequent,
can be trusted for quality? I'd be wary of them, but then I'm a nut
for freshness.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Richard Bollard - 02 Feb 2010 00:34 GMT
>snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>can be trusted for quality? I'd be wary of them, but then I'm a nut
>for freshness.

I don't eat them very often (or at all) but I see they are available.

They shouldn't be any more dangerous than anything else you can buy in
shops. I would prefer to make my own as I can control the amount of
seasoning.
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Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:07 GMT
>> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
>> I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water
> and turn them at half-time).

Looks as if I got it wrong - I thought the little dumplings were called
dim sum and that dim sim was a brand name.

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Rob Bannister

annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:10 GMT
>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> "butterfish" - I never did know what they are called elsewhere, but they
> taste okay.

Oh, of course. I completely forgot butterfish too. I don't buy fish and
chips much these days. That was probably the most common species in fish
and chip shops here when I did.

> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
> I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
> hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring
> roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an
> oddity of the West?

I think they're fairly common here in SA too, but as I said, it's a
while since I visited a fish and chip shop.

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
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annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:15 GMT
>>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> I think they're fairly common here in SA too, but as I said, it's a
> while since I visited a fish and chip shop.

This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat
"butterfish":

http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733

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annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:15 GMT
>>>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>>>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733

Oops, make that 4 years old.

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John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 01:40 GMT
> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat
> "butterfish":
>
> http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733

It's a pity that substitution has skunked the name, because there is
also a lot of very good fish sold as butterfish. Morwong (aka Tarakihi
in NZ) is delicious, and mulloway is another good one.

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Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:17 GMT
>> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat
>> "butterfish":
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> also a lot of very good fish sold as butterfish. Morwong (aka Tarakihi
> in NZ) is delicious, and mulloway is another good one.

Another inter-state mix-up: I thought morwong and muloway were the same
fish.

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Rob Bannister

John Holmes - 27 Jan 2010 09:31 GMT
>>> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't
>>> eat "butterfish":
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Another inter-state mix-up: I thought morwong and muloway were the
> same fish.

Common names can get very confusing, I agree. But according to what I
can find at fishbase.org, I can't see any overlap between what gets
called mulloway and morwong anywhere.

Mulloway is genus Argyrosomus and possibly Protonibea (Family
Sciaenidae). Morwong is Nemadactylus, Dactylophora or Goniistius (Family
Cheilodactylidae).

At the next level up, they all belong to Order Perciformes, but then so
do a lot of other fish.

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Robert Bannister - 28 Jan 2010 01:46 GMT
>>>> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't
>>>> eat "butterfish":
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> At the next level up, they all belong to Order Perciformes, but then so
> do a lot of other fish.

I have to believe you. One of those occasionally appears in my local
fish shop here in the West, but under a different name. I don't think
I've ever seen the other, but I thought I'd read somewhere that they
were the same - could have been some other fish.

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Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT
>>>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall.  (Flake is the
>>>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733

Googling myself, I find a variety of results from "Vietnamese catfish
banned in three countries" to mulloway.

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Rob Bannister

Peter Moylan - 22 Jan 2010 10:10 GMT
> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
> I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
> hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring
> roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an
> oddity of the West?

Australia-wide, it appears, but apparently they can't be found outside
Australia. I gather that Chinese people don't consider them to be
genuine Chinese food, even though it looks as if they were invented by a
Chinese Australian.

I don't agree with your "poor cousin" label. They're much nicer than
spring rolls.

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John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 03:03 GMT
>> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim
>> sims - I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> genuine Chinese food, even though it looks as if they were invented
> by a Chinese Australian.

William Wing Young. He was from an interesting family that had lived and
worked in Australia for three generations But each generation returned
to China to marry and have children before bringing them back to
Australia. His grandfather was one of the gang that built the original
railway to Echuca.

> I don't agree with your "poor cousin" label. They're much nicer than
> spring rolls.

They vary in quality, but the better ones are quite good. Especially
steamed, not fried.

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Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 18:47 GMT
...

> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims -
> I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it
> hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring
> roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an
> oddity of the West?

Maybe dim sim is to dim sum as Sim City is to a city.

--
Jerry Friedman likes dim sum.  Mm.
John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 04:35 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Maybe dim sim is to dim sum as Sim City is to a city.

Or just a different dialect or transliteration of dim sum. As I
understand it the inventor tried to get as close to what the family in
China made, but using only ingredients that were easily available in
Australia at the time (1930s-40s, IIRC). So they have minced meat,
cabbage, onion, salt and pepper in a wrapper of won-ton pastry.

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Mike Lyle - 20 Jan 2010 21:34 GMT
[...]

> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to
> ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash
> at the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract
> an extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit
> card, but it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card
> whether it's a debit or a credit card.

In BrE that's called "cashback", spelt as one word, but not the same
kind of cashback referred to by David in this thread.

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Mike.

Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 23:24 GMT
Peter Moylan:
> > If you do pay by ... debit card, the operator is then likely to
> > ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash
> > at the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract
> > an extra fee.)

Mike Lyle:
> In BrE that's called "cashback", spelt as one word...

Same here.  Except I'd expect it to be two words, but I may be out of
date on that.

Peter's use of "attract" is interesting; I've encountered it, but only
as jargon of financial professionals talking about taxes.
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annily - 20 Jan 2010 23:21 GMT
>> A student is asking:
>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to
> phase out the plastic bags as well.

And that's already done in South Australia. Bring your own bag(s) or buy
a "green" one in the shop. The other day, I saw that paper bags were
back at K-Mart though.

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annily - 20 Jan 2010 23:33 GMT
>>> A student is asking:
>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> And that's already done in South Australia. Bring your own bag(s) or buy
> a "green" one in the shop.

Oh, you can buy plastic ones too, I guess. The plastic ones are
generally thicker than the ones the supermarkets used to give away. The
thickness is prescribed in state legislation, I think.

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.

Marius Hancu - 21 Jan 2010 07:58 GMT
[snip]

Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:

---
When a cashier asks you a question 'How will you be paying for that?'
can I reply 'Do you take traveller's checks?' Or does it sound awkward
in Australian English?
---

Marius Hancu
annily - 21 Jan 2010 09:31 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in Australian English?
> ---

It doesn't sound awkward to me, but as I've never used traveller's
checks (or cheques) in Australia, I don't know what sort of
establishments would take them.

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Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 12:38 GMT
> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:
>
> ---
> When a cashier asks you a question 'How will you be paying for that?'
> can I reply 'Do you take traveller's checks?' Or does it sound awkward
> in Australian English?

No, it doesn't sound awkward. I would say "cheques" rather than
"checks", but the pronunciation is the same. (And "checks" is probably
more correct, given that most of them appear to be issued by US entities.)

I can predict, however, that the answer will almost certainly be "no".
Banks and some hotels will take travellers' cheques, I believe, but
apart from that they're not widely accepted.

It must be ten or twenty years since I last tried to use travellers'
cheques in Europe, and there too I discovered that shops don't like
them. They seem to be falling out of use.

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Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:24 GMT
>> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> cheques in Europe, and there too I discovered that shops don't like
> them. They seem to be falling out of use.

I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in
the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a cheque from
the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35 - for that, I will have
to go into a branch of my bank, fill out a stupid form, wait in a queue
and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other
cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Richard Bollard - 22 Jan 2010 02:58 GMT
>>> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other
>cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller.

That's tellin' him.

It may be of interest to note that most Australian cash *is* plastic
these days. Paper money, a thing of the past.
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Richard Bollard
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Mark Brader - 22 Jan 2010 06:01 GMT
Rob Bannister:
> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in
> the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a cheque from
> the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35 - for that, I will have
> to go into a branch of my bank, fill out a stupid form, wait in a queue
> and flirt with the teller...

I hope you're either bisexual or get the right sort of teller, then.

If I receive a payment by check, I normally go to the ATM and put it in
a deposit envelope.  No humans involved.  If I happen to go to a teller,
there are still no forms to fill out -- the bank did away with deposit
and withdrawal slips a few years ago.  (I actually find this annoying
if I'm doing anything where I have to give a dollar amount, as I now have
to speak it two or three times, instead of just writing it down once.)
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Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:16 GMT
> Rob Bannister:
>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I hope you're either bisexual or get the right sort of teller, then.

There are a few bank guys, but mostly there are women of all ages who
grow more beautiful as you queue. Did you never hear of the Tiller Girls
- an early form of high kicking teller girl.

> If I receive a payment by check, I normally go to the ATM and put it in
> a deposit envelope.  No humans involved.  If I happen to go to a teller,
> there are still no forms to fill out -- the bank did away with deposit
> and withdrawal slips a few years ago.  (I actually find this annoying
> if I'm doing anything where I have to give a dollar amount, as I now have
> to speak it two or three times, instead of just writing it down once.)

I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing
to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it
once with a bank official standing next to me, but I was shaking.

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Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2010 02:31 GMT
Rob Bannister:
>>> I got a cheque from the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35
>>> - for that, I will have to go into a branch of my bank...

> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall.

Ah, so it's the "have to" of phobia, not of banking rules.  Got it.  Thanks.
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Garrett Wollman - 23 Jan 2010 07:26 GMT
>I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing
>to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it
>once with a bank official standing next to me, but I was shaking.

I'm sure in (small) part to remedy this, the bank I use (Too Big To
Fail, N.A.) has begun to replace its ATMs with units that scan the
face of the check (or currency) right then and there, and (for check
deposits) give you the option of a receipt with an image of the
deposited item(s) on them as evidence of your deposit.  (They do not,
apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is
no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.)

-GAWollman

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R H Draney - 23 Jan 2010 08:45 GMT
Garrett Wollman filted:

>>I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing
>>to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is
>no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.)

I strongly suspect not...one of the big banks has been running an ad with a
customer showing this feature to his friend...the friend then asks if it works
with cash as well, and he demonstrates by borrowing a $20 bill and depositing
it...(at the end of the ad, the friend has only just realized that his twenty
bucks is now in the bank account of the other man)....r

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James Silverton - 23 Jan 2010 13:27 GMT
Garrett  wrote  on Sat, 23 Jan 2010 07:26:28 +0000 (UTC):

>> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's
>> one thing to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the
>> other way. I did it once with a bank official standing next
>> to me, but I was shaking.

> I'm sure in (small) part to remedy this, the bank I use (Too
> Big To Fail, N.A.) has begun to replace its ATMs with units
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is no audible
> shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.)

I don't live in Australia, of course, but my bank now takes checks for
deposit at ATMs. It will only take one at a time without a deposit
envelope but produces a receipt with a photocopy of the check face. I
don't pay in checks very often but so far so good. I have only used the
ATMs outside my bank office not those in stores.

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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

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Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT
>> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing
>> to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is
> no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.)

Now that would be fun.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:07 GMT
>>> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other
> cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller.

Can't you deposit it through an ATM? I do (but they don't read them, and
 if it's not in Canadian currency, they deposit it as though it were,
and then you have the tedious business of sorting out the mess).

Or by mail. You used to be able to mail them in. There were special
forms, but it worked for me if I just wrote a covering letter saying
what I wanted them to do with the cheque. And they'd send me the special
form and an envelope with the receipt.

Signature

Cheryl

Default User - 22 Jan 2010 20:21 GMT
> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments
> in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> television that some other cheating swine has won $15 million - hope
> he gets an ugly teller.

In the US it's possible to deposit checks at ATMs.

Brian

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Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 01:09 GMT
>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments
>> in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> In the US it's possible to deposit checks at ATMs.

That's also possible in Australia, but I don't think I've ever seen
anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to
ensure that the details are correctly recorded.

I might take the risk for $35, though.

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For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 17:51 GMT
>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any
>>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to
> ensure that the details are correctly recorded.

I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as
the treasurer of my HOA[1].  The ATM scans the check and determines
how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with
images of all of the checks deposited[3].

[1] About half of the unit owners pay on-line.  This means that a
   clearinghouse prints up a check and sends it through the mail to
   the HOA mailing address.  I could probably set it up so that the
   money could be transferred directly, but I believe that that would
   cost money, and receiving the check gives me the impetus to record
   the payment.

[2] presenting a thumbnail of each with its decision and allowing me
   to enlarge the image and run a magnifying glass over it and
   correct it if it's wrong...I've had a couple out of hundreds where
   it was wrong and only one where it gave up.  (The guy had written,
   in the number slot, $200.00+$75, apparently having written the
   number wrong at first.)

[3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the
   bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt.

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Tasha Miller - 24 Jan 2010 04:55 GMT
>>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any
>>>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with
> images of all of the checks deposited[3].

Impressive. Once we tell the ATM we will be making a deposit it extrudes an
envelope into which we have to insert our cheque(s) and cash before allowing
the ATM to gobble them up. All we get back is a slip of paper that couldn't
really be considered a receipt because the contents of the envelope have to
be verified before the deposit is applied to the account.

However, I do occasionally deposit cheques via an ATM and haven't yet had a
problem. I write very few cheques myself and they are usually to individuals
or businesses who don't like to give out their account details for people to
deposit directly into their accounts. I hate receiving them! (Well, I like
receiving the money but I'd rather it was delivered in a more convenient
form,)

> [1] About half of the unit owners pay on-line.  This means that a
>    clearinghouse prints up a check and sends it through the mail to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> [3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the
>    bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt.
Mark Brader - 24 Jan 2010 08:59 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as
>> the treasurer of my HOA[1].  The ATM scans the check and determines
>> how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with
>> images of all of the checks deposited[3].

Tasha Miller:
> Impressive. Once we tell the ATM we will be making a deposit it extrudes an
> envelope into which we have to insert our cheque(s) and cash before allowing
> the ATM to gobble them up. All we get back is a slip of paper...

They're more trusting here.  The envelopes are in a rack next to the
machine, and I've found it to be pretty rare that they're missing.
(On the one or two occasions when it *has* happened, I've gone to
another bank nearby and taken one of theirs.  So far I've gotten away
with it.)

For years the deposit envelopes had the ordinary kind of flap that you
lick, but nowadays at the bank I normally use, it's a press-to-stick
flap instead, which is more convenient and works better too.
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Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:07 GMT
>Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>lick, but nowadays at the bank I normally use, it's a press-to-stick
>flap instead, which is more convenient and works better too.

Those were used here from the word go but I think they were dropped
because nobody needed or wanted them. Cheques are dying out.
Signature

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Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 14:09 GMT
>>Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Those were used here from the word go but I think they were dropped
>because nobody needed or wanted them. Cheques are dying out.

I'd much rather mail Totally Unknown Company X a check, as I generally
do, than give them my credit card number.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

tony cooper - 27 Jan 2010 14:27 GMT
>>>Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>>>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>I'd much rather mail Totally Unknown Company X a check, as I generally
>do, than give them my credit card number.

So you don't mind giving out your bank name, the routing numbers, and
your account number.  (Assuming your checks are the same as US checks)
Your loss is capped, or non-existant, if your credit card is used
fraudulently and you follow the proper procedures.  Is your bank
account as safe?

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 12:41 GMT
>>>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any
>>>>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>> [3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the
>>    bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt.

I'm astonished about all this modern technology! Careless me, I've been
depositing cheques and even cash in bank machines for years, and all I
get back is a slip of paper saying I've deposited X dollars. Nothing
scanned, no photocopies of anything. Of course, I can check online the
next day to make sure that the bank clerk emptying the machine credited
me with the right amout, which invariably happens unless I deposit
something from the US and the clerk doesn't notice it's not in Canadian
funds (note: This is a bad idea. They do straighten it out, but it's a
pain. And they might not catch minor differences between what you
entered and what's on the cheque, although I bet they notice really
quickly if the difference is a big on, in my favour.).

I suppose we'll be getting those fancy machines locally sometime.

Signature

Cheryl

Mark Brader - 24 Jan 2010 18:11 GMT
Cheryl Perkins:
> Careless me, I've been
> depositing cheques and even cash in bank machines for years, and all I
> get back is a slip of paper saying I've deposited X dollars. Nothing
> scanned, no photocopies of anything.

Likewise.

> Of course, I can check online the
> next day to make sure that the bank clerk emptying the machine credited
> me with the right amout, which invariably happens unless I deposit
> something from the US and the clerk doesn't notice it's not in Canadian
> funds (note: This is a bad idea. They do straighten it out, but...)

If your bank works the same way as all the ones I've use, you have to
type in the correct amount before depositing the item.  If it's a US
dollar item, you can't possibly do that, since you don't know the
applicable exchange rate!  Haven't they told you that?  No wonder
you've had trouble.

With an ordinary ATM, that is.  My bank branch has one ATM that's stocked
with US cash as well as Canadian, and accepts deposits in both currencies
too.  But you select a US-dollar button before starting the transaction:
you still aren't relying on the clerk to notice.
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Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 19:37 GMT
> Cheryl Perkins:
>> Careless me, I've been
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> applicable exchange rate!  Haven't they told you that?  No wonder
> you've had trouble.

I only did it once. I think I must have input the amount as though it
were Canadian dollars. No wonder the bank got it wrong.

Once, I put in something with the numbers of cents off by a bit, and
some bank clerk who must have been having a bad day said that they don't
bother checking the exact amounts when I called up to explain what I'd
done. I don't think  I believe her. When I worked as a teller, in
pre-ATM days, there was quite an emphasis on getting the numbers on the
bits of paper to add up correctly and balance.

> With an ordinary ATM, that is.  My bank branch has one ATM that's stocked
> with US cash as well as Canadian, and accepts deposits in both currencies
> too.  But you select a US-dollar button before starting the transaction:
> you still aren't relying on the clerk to notice.

I guess we're much too small a centre for that sort of thing - even the
main branches, or at least those I used the machine in, don't have that
option. Maybe they will eventually, now that it's more common to have an
account in US$

Signature

Cheryl

Robin Bignall - 24 Jan 2010 22:00 GMT
>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments
>>> in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to
>ensure that the details are correctly recorded.

I live near a small market town and my bank has such little frontage
that there's only space for its door and a cash dispenser.  It's not
really an ATM.  If you want to deposit cheques you have to go inside
during banking hours to another machine that only accepts cheques in
sterling.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:20 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Marius Hancu

I can't think of another way of putting even if the cashier doesn't ask
you. You need to pay with traveller's cheques, then you need to ask.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Nick Spalding - 21 Jan 2010 12:31 GMT
Peter Moylan wrote, in <n62dnSAQ5eJuf8vWnZ2dnUVZ8o2dnZ2d@westnet.com.au>
on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:03:13 +1100:

> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The
> supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to
> phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is
> something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next
> time please bring your own bag."

The Irish Government brought in a levy on plastic shopping bags in 2002,
originally 15c but I it went up to 22c in 2007.  All the shops sell
sturdy reusable ones, generally fabric, with their advertising on them
for about one Euro.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Narelle - 26 Jan 2010 12:04 GMT
> A student is asking:
> ----
> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
> asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?'

No

 'Paper or plastic?'

No

> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir
> store?

No

> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the
> question of 'Cod or haddock?'

No

'Wrapped or open?'

No

> ---
> --
> Thanks.
> Marius Hancu

Narelle
John Savage - 27 Jan 2010 12:24 GMT
>> A student is asking:
>> ----
>> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be
>> asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?'
>
>No

IME the checkout person always waits mutely to see whether I
wave a plastic card or come up with a fistful of cash.

Sometimes I am asked, "Any flybuys?"

FWIW I concur with all of Narelle's other answers.

>  'Paper or plastic?'
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>No

'>Wrapped or open?'

>No
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Narelle
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John Savage                (my news address is not valid for email)

R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 16:30 GMT
John Savage filted:

>>> A student is asking:
>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Sometimes I am asked, "Any flybuys?"

What's that in this hemisphere?...

Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any
help getting my purchases to my car....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Cheryl - 27 Jan 2010 17:13 GMT
> John Savage filted:
>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any
> help getting my purchases to my car....r

I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" - as though
I'd wait until I was at the checkout and then hold everyone up by asking
"No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they
are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?"

Signature

Cheryl

R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 17:38 GMT
Cheryl filted:

>>Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any
>> help getting my purchases to my car....r
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they
>are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?"

I find myself answering that one in the negative more and more frequently these
days..."everything but the horseradish", that kind of response...the other day,
the woman ahead of me (whom I had met in the canned-fish section) put in her
plea for anchovies, and I watched to see where they took her in case I need any
myself in the near future....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Percival P. Cassidy - 27 Jan 2010 22:13 GMT
> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" - as though
> I'd wait until I was at the checkout and then hold everyone up by asking
> "No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they
> are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?"

My usual -- and truthful -- answer to that question is, "Yes, and a
whole lot more besides."

Perce
annily - 28 Jan 2010 04:46 GMT
>> John Savage filted:
>>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?"

Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet.

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.

Peter Moylan - 28 Jan 2010 08:10 GMT
>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?"
>
> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
> Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet.

Cheryl is Canadian, I believe. The Downunda supermarkets are more
concerned to check whether you've updated your Frequent Flyer points.

Those points are not to be sneered at, by the way. I got a free trip to
Melbourne last year, with a discounted fare for the return trip. I'm
still trying to figure out what my Woolworths card entitles me to; WW is
remarkably coy about what its card does, and I'm starting to suspect
that it gives me nothing but junk mail.

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For an e-mail address, see my web page.

annily - 28 Jan 2010 08:52 GMT
>>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?"
>> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
>> Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet.
>>
> Cheryl is Canadian, I believe. The Downunda supermarkets are more
> concerned to check whether you've updated your Frequent Flyer points.

Yes, I always get asked if I have a Frequent Flyer card, and I've never
bothered to join.

Signature

Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.

Richard Bollard - 02 Feb 2010 00:37 GMT
>>>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?"
>>> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Yes, I always get asked if I have a Frequent Flyer card, and I've never
>bothered to join.

You get bugger-all for your actual spending but I get reasonable
rewards for using my credit card for everything. I see the rewards
(which I take as credit) as an offset of the card's annual fee.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Cheryl - 28 Jan 2010 10:38 GMT
>>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?"
>> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> remarkably coy about what its card does, and I'm starting to suspect
> that it gives me nothing but junk mail.

Hey, Sobey's has a Frequent Flyer point program, too. Actually a lot of
businesses belong to the same program. I cashed in some of my points a
while back for grocery coupons, boring but useful.

At least one of the other stores here has the option of turning your
points in their program in for cash; well, not cash exactly, but a cash
card you can use in that store.

Signature

Cheryl

Cheryl - 28 Jan 2010 10:36 GMT
>>> John Savage filted:
>>>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South
> Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet.

Canada. It's a feature of the Sobey's chain, which originated in eastern
Canada, although I think it's now across Canada. I was going to say it's
probably now a subsidiary of XYZ Corporation, but actually, I think it
is the overall boss of its group of companies, since aside from their
Sobey's stores, they run various other groceries aimed at various
demographics and regions (eg their 'Price Chopper' stores are a lot
messier and supposedly cheaper than their 'Sobey's' stores). And there's
their drugstore chain, and I'm pretty sure they own a local grocery
distributer.

I can't remember if their main local rival has their clerks say anything
more than a cheerful "Good morning!". They're very perky.

Signature

Cheryl

Narelle - 27 Jan 2010 21:09 GMT
> John Savage filted:
>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any
> help getting my purchases to my car....r

They are shopping reward points.  You are issued a card, similar to a
credit card, and swipe it or have it scanned at the checkout.  Acquired
at certain shops on an X points-per-dollar ratio.  Save up so many and
you can trade them for goods.  Supposedly an incentive to shop at
Coles-Myer owned shops.
https://www.flybuys.com.au

Narelle
Robin Bignall - 27 Jan 2010 21:25 GMT
>> John Savage filted:
>>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Coles-Myer owned shops.
>https://www.flybuys.com.au

These sound to be something like Nectar cards in the UK, the use of
which in stores that support them builds up points that can be
exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash
off).  What do we call these in the UK?  They're not store cards.

Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 27 Jan 2010 21:50 GMT
>>> John Savage filted:
>>>>>> A student is asking:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash
>off).  What do we call these in the UK?  They're not store cards.

They are "loyalty cards".

Nectar cards are a service/product of Loyalty Management UK Limited
whcih in turn is owned by Groupe Aeroplan which:

   is the global leader in loyalty management. Groupe Aeroplan owns
   Aeroplan, Canada’s premier loyalty program, Carlson Marketing, an
   international loyalty marketing services engagement and events
   provider headquartered in the US, as well as Nectar, the United
   Kingdom’s leading coalition loyalty program. In the Gulf Region,
   Groupe Aeroplan owns 60 per cent of Rewards Management Middle East,
   the operator of Air Miles programs in the United Arab Emirates,
   Qatar and Bahrain. Groupe Aeroplan also operates LMG Insight &
   offering worldwide services to retailers and their suppliers.
   http://www.groupeaeroplan.com/pages/index.php

I assume that Nectar is described as a *coalition* loyalty program
because it is used by several store groups rather than just one.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick Spalding - 28 Jan 2010 10:53 GMT
Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com>
on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000:

> These sound to be something like Nectar cards in the UK, the use of
> which in stores that support them builds up points that can be
> exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash
> off).  What do we call these in the UK?  They're not store cards.

My local supermarket calls them reward cards.  I don't think that is a
generic term though.
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Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Mike Lyle - 01 Feb 2010 15:41 GMT
> Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com>
> on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> My local supermarket calls them reward cards.  I don't think that is a
> generic term though.

I think that probably is the generic name, though a Wikiskim suggests
there are other meanings. A "loyalty card" seems to me slightly
different, as it only works in one shop or group. I hate this term, as I
don't want to think of myself as being "loyal" to a supermarket.

Signature

Mike.

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Feb 2010 16:20 GMT
>> Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com>
>> on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>different, as it only works in one shop or group. I hate this term, as I
>don't want to think of myself as being "loyal" to a supermarket.

As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a
"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is
possible to "earn" Nectar Points when purchasing at various retailers
which are independent of one another. It is also possible to buy goods
with Points (redeem them) at retailers that do not award them.

There is also a hybrid means of getting Nectar points. If you go via the
Nectar website to certain online stores that do not themselves award
Nectar points, Amazon.co.uk or eBay.co.uk, for example, you will earn
points on your purchase. This does not happen if you go directly to the
online store's site.

Someone must have calculated that all of this is beneficial to all the
stores involved.

For the inquisitive:
http://www.nectar.com/NectarHome.nectar

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Wood Avens - 01 Feb 2010 16:39 GMT
>As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a
>"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>For the inquisitive:
>http://www.nectar.com/NectarHome.nectar

AIUI the benefit is the purchasing profile this exercise allows the
marketing analysts to develop of each customer, in order that
advertising, special offers, etc, may be targeted specifically at the
customers likely to respond to them.  That is, it enables them to
press our money-spending buttons more accurately.

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Katy Jennison

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Feb 2010 18:45 GMT
>>As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a
>>"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>customers likely to respond to them.  That is, it enables them to
>press our money-spending buttons more accurately.

Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data
Warehouse.
Intro to Data Warehousing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_warehouse

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Feb 2010 11:45 GMT
>>>As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a
>>>"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Intro to Data Warehousing:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_warehouse

And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/data-mining.html

One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect
someone was having fun when choosing that name - the models are
Mathematical Models not Catwalk Models:
http://www.the-modeling-agency.com/data-mining-definition.html

   There's more to the definition of data mining than simply creating
   warehouses of servers that record transactions and customer
   contacts. As implied by its name and definition, to get the most out
   of data mining, this data needs to be massaged and manipulated to
   transform raw data into information upon which a company can act.
   ....
   The definition of data mining lets you address more than just CRM
   [Customer Relationship Management] issues. You can use some of the
   same tools for problems such as fraud detection, inventory
   management, and the collection of receivables.

The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=95260&dict=CALD&topic=faking-and-
pretending

   
   massage verb (LIE)
 
   to try to make facts or numbers appear better than they really are
   in order to deceive somebody
     "Television companies have been massaging their viewing figures in
     order to attract more advertising revenue."

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick - 02 Feb 2010 18:39 GMT
>>Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data
>>Warehouse.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining.
> http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/data-mining.html

It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a
piece of data mining software: Clementine.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Feb 2010 18:46 GMT
>>>Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data
>>>Warehouse.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a
>piece of data mining software: Clementine.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that one.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

R H Draney - 02 Feb 2010 19:55 GMT
BrE filted:

>>> And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining.
>>
>>It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a
>>piece of data mining software: Clementine.
>
>Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that one.

Right up there with "Nero Burning ROM"....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Nick - 02 Feb 2010 20:52 GMT
> BrE filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Right up there with "Nero Burning ROM"....r

Not speaking German, I didn't get that one until I read an explanation
of it.
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Mark Brader - 03 Feb 2010 00:43 GMT
Peter Duncanson:
> One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect
> someone was having fun when choosing that name - the models are
> Mathematical Models not Catwalk Models:

I like it.

> http://www.the-modeling-agency.com/data-mining-definition.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.

No, it's just redundant.  "Massaging" is a common slang term for
manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant
information.  There is no implication of impropriety.

(<crooked_editor>What implication did you want there to be?</>)
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

tony cooper - 03 Feb 2010 04:53 GMT
>Peter Duncanson:
>> One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant
>information.  There is no implication of impropriety.

I would differentiate "massaging" and "manipulating" in that context.
I massage the data to derive the relevant information, but would not
manipulate the data because that would falsely portray results.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Mark Brader - 03 Feb 2010 05:14 GMT
Peter Duncanson:
>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.

Mark Brader:
>> No, it's just redundant.  "Massaging" is a common slang term for
>> manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant
>> information.  There is no implication of impropriety.

Tony Cooper:
> I would differentiate "massaging" and "manipulating" in that context.
> I massage the data to derive the relevant information, but would not
> manipulate the data because that would falsely portray results.

I would differentiate them too: one is slang for the other.  There
is no implication of impropriety.  Of course that usage *also* exists,
but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity.
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tony cooper - 03 Feb 2010 05:47 GMT
>Peter Duncanson:
>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>is no implication of impropriety.  Of course that usage *also* exists,
>but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity.

Wouldn't that depend on who you are talking to?  Someone who works in
the field may agree with you, but if I hear the data has been
manipulated, I'm certainly going to suspect impropriety.  

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Pat Durkin - 03 Feb 2010 17:58 GMT
>>Peter Duncanson:
>>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> the field may agree with you, but if I hear the data has been
> manipulated, I'm certainly going to suspect impropriety.

Hey, you are talking statistics here.  Was there ever a statistic that
wasn't selected to prove a given point?  Doesn't the devil use
statistics?

There are lies,
there are damned lies,
and then there are statistics.
(Don't know whom I am quoting--certainly not who you are talking to! )
James Hogg - 03 Feb 2010 18:02 GMT
>>> Peter Duncanson:
>>>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> and then there are statistics.
> (Don't know whom I am quoting--certainly not who you are talking to! )

Mark Twain (another statistic).

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James

Evan Kirshenbaum - 03 Feb 2010 20:08 GMT
> Peter Duncanson:
>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> is no implication of impropriety.  Of course that usage *also*
> exists, but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity.

As someone who works (sort of) in the data mining field, I'd have to
say that I'd make the same distinction Tony does.  "Massaging" data
means things like running SQL queries to extract it from a database,
converting it from XML to CSV format, imputing missing values,
removing suspicious outliers, extracting feature vectors, anonymizing
it, or converting text to a common character set.  Transformations
technically required in order to perform an analysis but not
inherently introducing any particular bias.  "Manipulating" data
implies a conscious attempt to choose the data or form of analysis in
order to achieve a particular result.

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Jitze - 04 Feb 2010 02:43 GMT
>> Peter Duncanson:
>>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>implies a conscious attempt to choose the data or form of analysis in
>order to achieve a particular result.

'S funny - because when I was active in the trade, "manipulating"
frequently  meant *some* of what Evan calls "massaging". We would
"manipulate" data in disparate relational databases by a sequence
of join, project, restrict, operations (i.e. more than just simple
queries which are just simple "projections") potentialy followed
by hairier non-SQL manipulations (sorting,  grouping and summary
totalling or "pivoting") and so forth - all of this "manipulation"
being done to  derive "info" from "data" as a first step on the
way to "intelligence". Massaging was a much more informal
term and tended to imply something like "lining up and cleaning
the data" to get it into the format/shape expected by the
software that was going to process it (sometimes also
referred to as "impedance matching" by double-E types)
and that usage jibes with what Evan describes above.

In very simplistic terms:
Manipulate = Mix, boil down, extract essence
Massage = reformat and re-shape for input matching

Jitze
Robert Bannister - 02 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT
>> As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a
>> "loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> customers likely to respond to them.  That is, it enables them to
> press our money-spending buttons more accurately.

See the article in "Choice":
http://tinyurl.com/yffsmlb
or
http://www.choice.com.au/Reviews-and-Tests/Money/Shopping-and-Legal/Shopping/Sho
pping-loyalty-cards/page/Introduction.aspx


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Rob Bannister

R H Draney - 28 Jan 2010 00:02 GMT
Narelle filted:

>> John Savage filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>you can trade them for goods.  Supposedly an incentive to shop at
>Coles-Myer owned shops.

Thank you....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

John Savage - 06 Feb 2010 23:17 GMT
>> A student is asking:
>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>No

It's understood that if you desired a particular species, you would have
asked for it.  Being that you didn't, then you take whatever they give
you, and in batter.  (In any case, haddock is not a local species here.)

'>Wrapped or open?'

>No

Usually I am asked, "Salt?"

Further to the matter of paying with plastic in supermarkets,..
Immediately the cashier spies my shaky fumbling with a Mastercard this
triggers a reflex, "Any cash out?"  Being asked this question sometimes
mildly annoys me, for even were I to answer in the affirmative, I know
that in short time the cashier is going to deny me cash when he/she
discovers my grimy fingers to be stabbing the "debit" button.

But I can't see any workable alternative to being asked at that juncture.

>> ---
>> --
>> Thanks.
>> Marius Hancu
>
>Narelle
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annily - 07 Feb 2010 00:12 GMT
>>> A student is asking:
>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> that in short time the cashier is going to deny me cash when he/she
> discovers my grimy fingers to be stabbing the "debit" button.

I don't understand that. The buttons on all EFTPOS machine I have seen
in Australia are marked with abbreviations of "savings", "cheque" and
"credit", and you can't get cash out if you select "credit". The
neqarest to "debit" I can think of would be "savings" and you can get
cash with that.

Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"?

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Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
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John Savage - 07 Feb 2010 12:18 GMT
>> Further to the matter of paying with plastic in supermarkets,..
>> Immediately the cashier spies my shaky fumbling with a Mastercard this
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"?

"Credit" is indeed what I meant.  Apologies where my oversight caused
confusion.

More often than not, I make my selection by pressing the button which
bears no label -- it's blank.  I surmise that it originally would have
carried some designation but now ablated by tens of thousands of
manicured nails relentlessly registering their impatience.
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Richard Bollard - 09 Feb 2010 04:47 GMT
>>>> A student is asking:
>>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"?

I didn't know that cash was unavailable with "credit". I thought that
it would be treated as a cash advance with ruinous interest charged
immediately.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robert Bannister - 11 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT
>>>>> A student is asking:
>>>>> ----
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> it would be treated as a cash advance with ruinous interest charged
> immediately.

I think you can get cash from your credit account at an ATM, but
definitely not from EFTPOS.

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Rob Bannister

 
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