Australia: questions
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Marius Hancu - 20 Jan 2010 07:56 GMT A student is asking: ---- At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' 'Paper or plastic?' How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir store?
When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?' --- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu
John Holmes - 20 Jan 2010 09:33 GMT > A student is asking: > ---- > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be > asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' 'Paper or plastic?' > How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir > store? Quite probably, unless you are already obviously proffering one or the other. If you hand over a plastic card, they'll probably ask "Is that credit or debit?"
> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the > question of 'Cod or haddock?' Definitely not. We don't have those fish here. What fish is on offer will depend on what part of the country you are in, and usually be listed on a signboard above the fryer. About 4-5 varieties is the average, but some up-market places might have a dozen or more. A long way from the coast, the choice might be more restricted.
> 'Wrapped or open?' Most places I've been put them in a cardboard tray in a white paper bag. Some might still wrap them, but I can't remember when I last saw that.
 Signature Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au
annily - 20 Jan 2010 10:44 GMT >> A student is asking: >> ---- [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > other. If you hand over a plastic card, they'll probably ask "Is that > credit or debit?" I would think that is more likely to be "credit or savings" as that is how they are labelled on EPTPOS machines, along with "cheque", which is probably used least.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 01:53 GMT >>> A student is asking: >>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > how they are labelled on EPTPOS machines, along with "cheque", which is > probably used least. And, in fact, they don't very often bother to ask these days, because the customer chooses the option her-/himself in most shops.
I don't think I've ever heard "cash" used as a question quite like that, although one might offer it to a tradesman in the hope of getting a discount, but so many of those now work for large companies that keep a tight check on where they've been and what they've done, those sort of cash jobs are no longer an option.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 04:55 GMT ...
>> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the >> question of 'Cod or haddock?' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >average, but some up-market places might have a dozen or more. A long >way from the coast, the choice might be more restricted. Away from the coast you may not get a choice at all. In Canberra, most take-aways offer a choice of battered, fried and grilled. 'Fish cocktails" are also available. Same kind of white fish (probably flake), just in smaller portions.
>> 'Wrapped or open?' > >Most places I've been put them in a cardboard tray in a white paper bag. >Some might still wrap them, but I can't remember when I last saw that. It is not uncommon to have the fish (and chips) placed in a cardboard tray which is then wrapped, not bagged.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 11:03 GMT > A student is asking: > ---- > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be > asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' I'm rarely asked anything at all. More typically the checkout person says something like "That comes to $56.30", and then sees whether you hand over plastic or money. At the bigger supermarkets you can save time by putting your credit or debit card through the machine while the groceries are being scanned. It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings, or credit?". By the time the groceries have been scanned, the operator already knows how you're paying.
The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a credit card or a savings account card.
If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash at the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract an extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit card, but it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card whether it's a debit or a credit card.
> 'Paper or plastic?' This had me confused at first, because I assumed that paper=money and plastic=credit card. Then I remembered that in some countries you get a choice between paper bags and plastic bags for your groceries.
We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next time please bring your own bag."
> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir > store? A clothes shop doesn't work under the same time pressure. Once the sale has been rung up, the most likely question will be "And how will you be paying for that?"
> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the > question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?' Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound quite foreign to me.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Marius Hancu - 20 Jan 2010 11:22 GMT > > When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the > > question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?' > > Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound quite > foreign to me. I think so.
Thank you all very much.
Enjoy the Australian Open! I do:-) Marius Hancu
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 Jan 2010 12:53 GMT >The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume >you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a >credit card or a savings account card. The following seems to be correct in general principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_card
A Charge card is a plastic card that provides an alternative payment to cash when making purchases in which the issuer and the cardholder enter into an agreement that the debt incurred on the charge account will be paid in full and by due date (usually every thirty days) or be subject to severe late fees and/or restrictions on card use.
The first card I (in the UK) had was a Diners Club card. It was generally referred to in conversation as a "credit card". It wasn't until I got a Barclaycard (VISA) that I discovered that the DC card was specifically known as a "charge card". Both types of card offered credit as opposed to immediate payment of my money at the time of purchase.
The Diners Club (UK) website says: "We pioneered the credit card concept over 50 years ago". However, the information with the application form says:
2. The Diners Club Card is a charge card and not a credit card. ... 4. Statements detailing the balance on your account are issued monthly. Your balance must be paid in full within 30 days of the statement date to avoid paying service charges.
http://www.dinersclub.co.uk/
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 13:03 GMT >> The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I assume >> you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those either a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.dinersclub.co.uk/ Thanks. So the difference appears to lie in that "balance must be paid in full" condition.
I have an American Express card that's like that. I probably should give it up, given that there are few places in the known universe that are willing to accept it.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
the Omrud - 20 Jan 2010 13:57 GMT > I have an American Express card that's like that. I probably should give > it up, given that there are few places in the known universe that are > willing to accept it. I have an American Express credit card (yes, it's a credit card) because they give the best cashback. It's surprisingly widely accepted in the UK - all supermarkets, petrol stations, Amazon, etc. It's only small establishments, e.g. private restaurants or small shops, which don't take it.
 Signature David
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 14:20 GMT > If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to > ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash at > the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract an > extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit card, but > it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card whether it's a > debit or a credit card. Here in the US Midwest we have a card from a small regional bank. It can be used as an ATM card or as a credit card (MasterCard), so I can select either "Debit" or "Credit" -- but even if I select "Credit" the money still comes straight out of the bank account.
We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around anyway, even without the discount.
Perce
A.Clews@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk - 20 Jan 2010 15:47 GMT > We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name > of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This > has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against > the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents > a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around > anyway, even without the discount. Well, bully for you. I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a gallon for your gas-guzzlers, whereas here in the UK for example we are being squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per UK gallon.
 Signature Andy Clews University of Sussex *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 20 Jan 2010 16:01 GMT > Thus spake Percival P. Cassidy (Nobody@notmyisp.net) unto the assembled > multitudes: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Well, bully for you. I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a > gallon for your gas-guzzlers, while bitching like hell about it,
> whereas here in the UK for example we are being > squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per > UK gallon.
 Signature athel
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 16:48 GMT >> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name >> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This >> has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping the card against >> the card reader. It works for their gas stations too, and we get 5 cents >> a gallon off for using the card; their gas is often the cheapest around >> anyway, even without the discount.
> Well, bully for you. I bet you're still paying little more than a dollar a > gallon for your gas-guzzlers, whereas here in the UK for example we are being > squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per > UK gallon. The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1 a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been well over $3 a quasi-gallon.
Perce
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 19:39 GMT On 01/20/10 11:48 am, I wrote:
>>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name >>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> $8.15 per >> UK gallon.
> The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1 > a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been > well over $3 a quasi-gallon. And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in far better condition than the freeways in many parts of the USA (depends where you are, I think; although the interstate freeways constitute a nationwide system, maintenance and such things as speed limits are a State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border. Michigan freeways are considered to have especially bad road surfaces). If the area of the UK with which I am most familiar (the South East) is anything to go by, your street lighting is often better, you have well-illuminated pedestrian crossings and traffic signs; you have internally illuminated thingies on traffic islands at significant intersections (try cutting a corner that has those!); you have traffic lights situated so that they can be seen, rather than having one suspended over the intersection so that it is hidden by the semi-trailer in front of you and you suddenly find that you have run a red light (I'm talking about slow-moving traffic, e.g., when the vehicle in front of me was waiting for oncoming traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface markings that last more than six months.
Perce
Ray O'Hara - 20 Jan 2010 20:37 GMT On 01/20/10 11:48 am, I wrote:
>>> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name >>> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> $8.15 per >> UK gallon.
> The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1 > a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been > well over $3 a quasi-gallon. And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in far better condition than the freeways in many parts of the USA (depends where you are, I think; although the interstate freeways constitute a nationwide system, maintenance and such things as speed limits are a State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border. Michigan freeways are considered to have especially bad road surfaces). If the area of the UK with which I am most familiar (the South East) is anything to go by, your street lighting is often better, you have well-illuminated pedestrian crossings and traffic signs; you have internally illuminated thingies on traffic islands at significant intersections (try cutting a corner that has those!); you have traffic lights situated so that they can be seen, rather than having one suspended over the intersection so that it is hidden by the semi-trailer in front of you and you suddenly find that you have run a red light (I'm talking about slow-moving traffic, e.g., when the vehicle in front of me was waiting for oncoming traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface markings that last more than six months.
Perce
==========================================================================
Of course when I-95 hits the NY border you are in a heavily urbanized area where going any faster than 55 is extemely dangerous. But then why let little details like driving through NYC a city of nearly 9 million people get in the way of a good rant.
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 21:00 GMT > And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. > To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > State matter. E.g., on I-95 the speed limit drops from 70mph in > Connecticut to 55mph at the New York border. <snip>
> Of course when I-95 hits the NY border you are in a heavily urbanized area > where going any faster than 55 is extemely dangerous. > But then why let little details like driving through NYC a city of nearly 9 > million people get in the way of a good rant. The NY/CT boundary is still a way out of NYC -- about the same population density both sides of the line. The 55mph speed limit on I-95 in NY isn't because it's close to NYC; it's because NY State has decided that its freeway speed limit shall be 55mph -- even out in the boonies; at least, it was when we lived there.
Perce
Ray O'Hara - 21 Jan 2010 01:04 GMT >> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. >> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Perce That entire southwest corner of Ct down to Northern Jersey what Cters and Jersyites call the Tri-State Region{no NYer ever uses that term} is heavily populated.
Percival P. Cassidy - 21 Jan 2010 01:46 GMT >>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. >>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> freeway speed limit shall be 55mph -- even out in the boonies; at least, >> it was when we lived there.
> That entire southwest corner of Ct down to Northern Jersey what Cters and > Jersyites call the Tri-State Region{no NYer ever uses that term} is heavily > populated. So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the freeway speed limit increases to 70mph? Unless things have changed since I lived there (and unless my memory is failing me), the speed limit does not change until I reach Pennsylvania.
Perce
Glenn Knickerbocker - 21 Jan 2010 03:03 GMT > So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the > freeway speed limit increases to 70mph? Indiana. All the Northeastern states still have 65 as the highest. That you'll reach as soon as you get to the Turnpike, since 1998.
¬R
sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 06:00 GMT > > So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the > > freeway speed limit increases to 70mph? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ¬R Indiana is both south of New York and farther west than Michigan (which has 70 mph speed limits and is west of NYC). Kentucky's another state east of Indiana that has a 70 mph limit. To me, Michigan is the clear answer to the question--if you're willing to drive south as well (as you'd need to do to admit Indiana), West Virginia is the nearest state to NY with a 70 mph speed limit. Along the east coast, North Carolina is the state farthest north with such a limit.
Mark Brader - 21 Jan 2010 07:56 GMT > > > So how far out of NYC toward the West do I have to drive before the > > > freeway speed limit increases to 70mph? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > another state east of Indiana that has a 70 mph limit. To me, > Michigan is the clear answer... Here, will this do?
http://www.hldi.org/laws/mapmaxspeedonruralinterstates.aspx
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "I shot a query into the net. msb@vex.net | I haven't got an answer yet..." --Ed Nather
Glenn Knickerbocker - 21 Jan 2010 14:15 GMT >Indiana is both south of New York and farther west than Michigan Uh, Kokomo is almost directly west of New York City. I-80 goes across the northern edge of Indiana and not to Michigan at all. To drive to eastern Michigan, you'd start out going north from NYC, not west.
¬R "Carl Sagan is more educational than J.R.R. Tolkien even though they were both total stoners." K. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/cosmic.html
the Omrud - 21 Jan 2010 22:07 GMT > And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. > To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > traffic to stop before making a turn); and you have road-surface > markings that last more than six months. Bollards.
 Signature David
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 22:45 GMT >> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. >> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bollards. No, it's really true.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
the Omrud - 21 Jan 2010 22:46 GMT >>> And I forgot to mention that in the US we pay a price for our low taxes. >>> To consider only roads and traffic control: the UK motorways are kept in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> > No, it's really true. Ba-boom. I sets 'em up ...
 Signature David
A.Clews@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk - 21 Jan 2010 09:18 GMT > The last time I filled up it was $2.58 per quasi-gallon. Hasn't been $1 > a gallon for many years. At times during the past few years it's been > well over $3 a quasi-gallon. My heart positively bleeds for you.
 Signature Andy Clews University of Sussex *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***
tony cooper - 20 Jan 2010 19:33 GMT >> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the name >> of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, IIRC). This [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >squeezed for about £1.10 ($1.80) a *litre*, which equates to about $8.15 per >UK gallon. Oh, don't we wish! Little more than a dollar? The current price in Orlando is about $2.72 per gallon. Each county in each state will have different gas prices depending on local taxes. Just 15 miles up the road in Volusia County gas is $2.85 a gallon.
Still better than the UK, though.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Pat Durkin - 20 Jan 2010 15:52 GMT >> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely >> to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > can select either "Debit" or "Credit" -- but even if I select > "Credit" the money still comes straight out of the bank account. I found out after many years of use that my credit union debit card charges one dollar each for transactions above twelve per month. When I called and asked about it, the representative suggested I use the debit card (it's a Visa) as a credit card. Well, that requires a signature, and is a major slow-down in a crowded shopping line. I haven't figured out how I used it so often, since I truly limit my trips to stores. Shopping? Ugh! So I just carry more cash. A one-time withdrawal is easier to keep track of than taking cash out at check-out.
> We also have a credit card (again it is MasterCard) issued in the > name of a regional supermarket chain (but actually by CitiBank, > IIRC). This has an RFID chip in it, so I can pay simply by tapping > the card against the card reader. That sounds good to me.
tony cooper - 20 Jan 2010 19:37 GMT >>> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely >>> to [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >one-time withdrawal is easier to keep track of than taking cash out at >check-out. What gets me is that it seems that every store has a different system. We use only a credit card. Some stores do not require a signature if the purchase is $25 or less. Some stores require a signature on every purchase, some add a requirement of showing a driver's license, some want to see the security number on the back of the card, and some want to visually check the expiration date.
It's worth extra time, though, since we get a rebate on our credit card purchases.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 19:26 GMT Marius Hancu:
> > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be > > asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' Peter Moylan:
> At the bigger supermarkets you can save time by putting your credit > or debit card through the machine while the groceries are being scanned. Interesting. I don't do that myself, but looking at the people holding up the line in front of me, I don't think you can do that here.
> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings, > or credit?". Hmm. When North American ATMs ask which bank account you want to access, it's "checking"# or "savings". "Check" only refers to the piece of paper that we fill out to send someone money from the account. Is what we call a "checking account", and I gather the British call a "current account", known in Australia as a "check account", then?
#Or "chequing", if you must. Blech.
> > 'Paper or plastic?'
> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The > supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to > phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is > something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next > time please bring your own bag." Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it.
Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more recently the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy reusable bags you could buy, with signs appealing to your environmental conscience. Last year City Council debated banning the disposable plastic bags, but instead came up with the idea of banning *free* ones. Now you can have as many disposable bags at the supermarket as you like, but they have to charge 5 cents each. And suddenly the cashiers are actually willing to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you twice as many as you needed, just in case.
 Signature Mark Brader | Caution msb@vex.net | Do not run on the stairs Toronto | Use the hand rail -- notice at British train station
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Cheryl - 20 Jan 2010 19:49 GMT > Marius Hancu:
>> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The >> supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you > twice as many as you needed, just in case. Our two major grocery chains announced with a big fanfare a few months back that they'd be charging for plastic bags in the future and by the way, they had a nice assortment of re-usable bags you could buy or win in a giveaway etc etc. Many more people started bringing their own bags, although there were quite predictably slowdowns in checking out because your average member of the general public isn't as fast as a checkout clerk in filling the bags, and it's awkward positioning bags of various sizes and types in the loading area, if that's what you call it, designed for the plastic bags. This period of adjustment was followed by the posting of big signs pointing out that you couldn't use your own bags to collect the goods in; they could only be used after you paid for them, and finally, during Christmas, by an announcement by one chain that they would, in the spirit of the season, not charge 5 cents for the plastic bags. I don't know if they've started charging again; I expect they have. The initial enthusiasm of the customers for re-usable bags seems to have died down a bit.
Meanwhile, in my pile of miscellaneous re-usable bags, I have at least one bag with the logo of one of the chains dating back to the last time they decided to be concerned about the environment and discourage the use of plastic bags. I feel like I'm already seeing too many cycles of this sort of thing. I'm not old enough to feel like that!
But none of them instruct their cashiers to tell you 'bring your own bag next time'. The cashiers are impressively polite, if highly scripted, in their dealings with the public, and simply ask if you want to use their plastic bags or if you've brought your own.
 Signature Cheryl
R H Draney - 20 Jan 2010 20:35 GMT Mark Brader filted:
>Hmm. When North American ATMs ask which bank account you want to >access, it's "checking"# or "savings". "Check" only refers to the >piece of paper that we fill out to send someone money from the account. >Is what we call a "checking account", and I gather the British call a >"current account", known in Australia as a "check account", then? The industry prefers (or used to) the terms "demand deposit" and "time deposit" respectively....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Tasha Miller - 20 Jan 2010 20:47 GMT > Marius Hancu: >>> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > #Or "chequing", if you must. Blech. Nope, we call them cheque accounts. No check, checking or chequing.
>>> 'Paper or plastic?' > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it. I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each I certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic supermarket bags as rubbish bags between the kitchen and rubbish bins so it annoys me to have to pay extra for them from shops which usually have shelves groaning with assorted single-use plastic bags for sale, anyway.
Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 02:02 GMT > I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each I > certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic > supermarket bags as rubbish bags between the kitchen and rubbish bins so > it annoys me to have to pay extra for them from shops which usually have > shelves groaning with assorted single-use plastic bags for sale, anyway. The plastic bag ban hasn't reached us yet, but it's on its way. I suppose this means I will now have to buy plastic bin liners. A lot of good that will do to save the whales or whatever, most of which are endangered not by bags, but by fishing lines and dead nets.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Cheryl - 21 Jan 2010 11:26 GMT >> I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each >> I certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > good that will do to save the whales or whatever, most of which are > endangered not by bags, but by fishing lines and dead nets. Our most recent local anti-plastic-bag campaigns got a lot of mileage over the effort to connect two bits of a very popular hiking trail. The missing bit ran between the city dump (it's probably a regional dump now; there are long and tedious debates about disposing of garbage and which communities shouldn't be doing it themselves any more and should be trucking their waste to larger, more modern dumps) and the ocean. Decades worth of plastic bags were tangled in the bushes, in the undergrowth and even through the exposed (and probably not exposed) bits of the root systems). To do the city credit, they had tried building a fence, but it didn't help; the winds are too high. And I guess they couldn't bury or whatever they do fast enough.
I also reuse those bags, for garbage, to carry things in...I've given some to a friend with a small child for diaper disposal after she started running short when the supermarket stopped giving them out for free. I give some to the library to give patrons on wet days when they forgot their own bags. I dispose of cat litter.
They never get only one use.
 Signature Cheryl
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:12 GMT >>> I haven't been told I have to bring my own but at 10 or 15 cents each >>> I certainly feel bullied into it! We've always used our plastic [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > They never get only one use. It is, however, of scientific interest why so many town dumps are built in places with high winds. Or, maybe, they attract wind - a new form of green energy?
 Signature Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 23:23 GMT > Peter Moylan:
>> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings, >> or credit?". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > #Or "chequing", if you must. Blech. We call it a "cheque account", and the ATMs offer the options "savings" and "cheque". (The "credit" option doesn't exist in ATMs for a cash withdrawal. It possibly does exist in some other submenu, but it's been ages since I used a credit card in an ATM. The "credit" option does, of course, appear when you put [1] a card in a supermarket card reader.) Cheques are dying a natural death, though, so cheque accounts might disappear in the foreseeable future.
The "savings"/"cheque" option is probably obsolescent in any case. I've just taken a look at the personal and business account types offered by my building society, and none of them is called a cheque account. A chequebook is, however, an available option when you have a savings account. I could get one with my own account if I wanted, but I need cheques so rarely that there's no point. Once or twice a year I might need a cheque, and then I just ask the building society to write it out for me, which they'll happily do with no charge.
Somebody mentioned having to sign when using a card. Here that is done only when you've forgotten your PIN, or at smaller places where they don't have an electronic card scanner.
[1] The better card scanners have two ways to insert the card: one to scan the magnetic strip, one to read the embedded chip. I've just noticed that neither my credit card nor my savings account card has a chip. I'd better sort that out before the magnetic strip becomes obsolete.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Percival P. Cassidy - 20 Jan 2010 23:38 GMT > The "savings"/"cheque" option is probably obsolescent in any case. I've > just taken a look at the personal and business account types offered by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > need a cheque, and then I just ask the building society to write it out > for me, which they'll happily do with no charge. Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line. Some stores used to have cash registers in which a blank check could be inserted to have the payee, amount and date printed automatically; all the customer had to do was sign it; that facility seems to have disappeared, so payment by cheque takes much longer than simply swiping or tapping a card.
Perce
Cheryl - 21 Jan 2010 00:54 GMT > Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a > great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > disappeared, so payment by cheque takes much longer than simply swiping > or tapping a card. The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a lot of the other big stores don't either. You can still mail a cheque to pay a bill (although I tend to do so electronically) or pay money to a charity or small social group or something similar.
Most of the bigger charities now seem to be set up for online donations, although you can usually find out where to send a cheque if you want to. I was a little startled to find out that they take credit cards. It seems a bit odd to borrow money to donate, but that seems to be how a lot of people do things these days.
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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 05:49 GMT > > Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and a > > great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > pay a bill (although I tend to do so electronically) or pay money to a > charity or small social group or something similar. FWIW, living in the US, I have yet to find a major grocery store that doesn't accept checks--everywhere from Ralph's to Whole Foods, Food Lion, Harris Teeter, Safeway, Giant, Hannaford, Shop'n'Save, Giant Eagle, Shaw's, and Piggly Wiggly, etc still take paper checks.
Most of them require ID (sometimes multiple forms), but they're pretty much the last remaining place outside of monthly bills (utilities and landlords), charities, and banks where you can pay with a check.
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 12:13 GMT >> Paying by cheque is becoming more and more inconvenient in the USA and >> a great inconvenience to the people farther back in the checkout line. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a > lot of the other big stores don't either. I once discovered that Coles will take a cheque, but only if you apply about a month before you plan to write the cheque. It takes them that long to do a credit check on you. That was back in the days when most people still had cheque books. The policy could have changed by now.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 23:19 GMT ...
>The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a >lot of the other big stores don't either. You can still mail a cheque to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >seems a bit odd to borrow money to donate, but that seems to be how a >lot of people do things these days. Charities often ring us and ask for a donation over the phone. They don't understand why we don't want to give them credit card details over the phone*. Makes me wonder how many others do.
*When they called us not when we called them.
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Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:03 GMT > ... >> The local grocery stores don't accept cheques at all, and I suspect a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > *When they called us not when we called them. My mother had a call like that recently - she thought, and I agreed, that it must have been a scam. They called her, they had a name neither of us recognized, but it included 'Leukemia', which killed a relative and which another relative now has, so she thought she'd like to donate. They refused to send her any information in the mail so she could send them a cheque (she LIKES using cheques; she uses cheques to pay businesses and people I've been paying electronically for years). They offered instead to transfer her to a 'secure line' so she could give them her credit card information. She refused.
 Signature Cheryl
Richard Bollard - 21 Jan 2010 23:30 GMT >Marius Hancu: >> > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Interesting. I don't do that myself, but looking at the people holding >up the line in front of me, I don't think you can do that here. It doesn't save all that much time but you can put the card and wallet away (if using a PIN) and be ready to "okay" the amount.
>> It's then the machine that asks you questions like "cheque, savings, >> or credit?". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >#Or "chequing", if you must. Blech. Blech all you like, on this side the ambiguity of "check" always trips us up somewhat.
>> > 'Paper or plastic?' > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next >> time please bring your own bag." I've never been told "next time ...". The bagger doesn't really care.
>Like hell I will if that's the way they go about it. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >to fill them up instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you >twice as many as you needed, just in case. I've seen discussion where people have gone off on a rant about how the shops are making profits on the bag surcharge, totally ignoring the argument that it is a punitive charge aimed at encouraging people to re-use bags "going forward".
When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free advertising.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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Nick Spalding - 22 Jan 2010 10:54 GMT Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com> on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100:
> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of > non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free > advertising. When they started being used here in Ireland there was a report of someone being seen gazing at the pyramids carrying one from my local shop.
 Signature Nick Spalding BrE/IrE
Mike Lyle - 22 Jan 2010 20:16 GMT > Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com> > on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > someone being seen gazing at the pyramids carrying one from my local > shop. A fit companion piece to the London Borough of Lewisham wheelie bin found in the Sea of Galilee.
I use one of those IKEA bags as an overnight case, but so far only when travelling by car: I don't think I've yet used one on a train.
 Signature Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 22 Jan 2010 20:43 GMT >> Richard Bollard wrote, in <i8ohl5t3v1s3230ead1201gm24qtndbs4v@4ax.com> >> on Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:30:35 +1100: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >A fit companion piece to the London Borough of Lewisham wheelie bin >found in the Sea of Galilee. It's a miracle. Praise the Lord!
(Sorry about that. Got a bit carried away. I blame Stephen Baldwin who is currently in the UK Celebrity Big Brother House. He is in almost full Gospelizing, Evangelizing mode. http://www.stephenbaldwin.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Baldwin
He is up for eviction from the BB house tonight. If the public vote goes against him and he leaves it will be all part of God's plan. OTOH if he stays it will be all part of God's plan.)
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud - 22 Jan 2010 18:55 GMT > When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of > non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free > advertising. We take care to use apparently exotic bags. Morrison's bags in the Languedoc, Carrefour bags in Warrington.
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Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 01:03 GMT >> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of >> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free >> advertising. > > We take care to use apparently exotic bags. Morrison's bags in the > Languedoc, Carrefour bags in Warrington. You're one up on me. I use the Coles bags in Woolworths, and the Woolworths bags in Coles.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:05 GMT >>> When re-usable bags came out, I saw them being used for all sorts of >>> non-shopping applications. Canny shops can also use them as free [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >You're one up on me. I use the Coles bags in Woolworths, and the >Woolworths bags in Coles. I did a swap with my mother when she was up here. I took her Age bag and gave her ... I can't remember, but it was ordinary here but unknown in Victoria.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 22 Jan 2010 05:28 GMT > Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more > recently the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you twice as many as > you needed, just in case. If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so apiece:
http://www.restockit.com/Plastic-T-Sacks-Bags-.html
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If to "man" a phone implies handing 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it over to a person of the male Palo Alto, CA 94304 |gender, then to "monitor" it |suggests handing it over to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |lizard. (650)857-7572 | Rohan Oberoi
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Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 18:45 GMT > > Here, paper bags also pretty much disappeared years ago, but more > > recently the supermarkets started prominently displaying heavy [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > instead of, as they tended to do before, giving you twice as many as > > you needed, just in case. The stores I go to absolutely don't charge for shopping bags, no sir or ma'am. But you get a five-cent credit for every bag you bring in. (Whole Foods asks whether you want the credit or want to donate it to their charity of the month.)
> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. > I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so > apiece: > > http://www.restockit.com/Plastic-T-Sacks-Bags-.html Think of the poor dead dinosaurs! Can you get paper bags and think about the poor dead trees?
-- Jerry Friedman is never clear on what the environmentally correct thing to do is.
Mike Lyle - 22 Jan 2010 20:21 GMT [...]
>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. >> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Think of the poor dead dinosaurs! Can you get paper bags and think > about the poor dead trees? Never mind the puir wee deid dinosaurs, think of the present marine environment so many of those bags seem to end up killing. Please get the rapidly-degrading ones.
 Signature Mike.
Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:04 GMT > [...] >>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > environment so many of those bags seem to end up killing. Please get the > rapidly-degrading ones. I have never seen a marine or a marine creature killed by a plastic bag. Fishing lines and nets are the killers, and some of those deep, free trawl nets go on killing fish for years. My supermarket's plastic bags degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to the car.
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Rob Bannister
Cheryl - 23 Jan 2010 12:43 GMT >> [...] >>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to > the car. Plastic loops are really bad. I've heard of the problem for years, but it was brought home recently when a wild duck got one stuck around its head and bill so it couldn't eat. It died before local bird enthusiasts were able to rescue it.
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tony cooper - 23 Jan 2010 14:35 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >head and bill so it couldn't eat. It died before local bird enthusiasts >were able to rescue it. Six-packs of beer and soda are sold with a piece of plastic with six holes in it to keep the cans together as a package. Fishermen toss them in the water, and diving birds become enmeshed in them. It isn't uncommon to see a bird with a plastic necklace like this: http://www.jrcompton.com/photos/The_Birds/J/Jan-08/J106346-sixpack-duck.jpg
I've seen less of this type of packaging lately. Six-packs are now more likely to be shrink-wrapped in clear plastic.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 23 Jan 2010 13:41 GMT >> [...] >>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >degrade so rapidly, they frequently fall apart before I can get them to >the car. Here are a couple of articles about the "plastic bag soup" in the Pacific ocean: http://international-environmental-affairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/plastic_soup _in_the_pacific_ocean
Plastic Soup in the Pacific Ocean Sea of Trash Spans Area Twice the Size of Continental United States .... .... Why this Plastic Soup is so Dangerous Plastic is a synthetic material that is not biodegradable, and cannot be digested by any living thing. The plastic in the ocean can only photodegrade, which means it is broken into smaller pieces by the sun’s rays, but it never goes away. This means that the plastic eventually becomes a plastic dust which mixes with the ocean, and now outnumbers zooplankton, the natural food, 6 to 1 in the North Pacific Central Gyre. This plastic is mistaken for food by marine animals, and will make them feel full even though they gain no nutrients from the plastic and their bodies cannot digest it. The plastic can also block their digestive track, leading to starvation. All of the toxins entering the food cycle through plastic are a danger for human life as well, because a lot of our diet comes from the sea. http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-t hat-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html
.... .... According to the UN Environment Programme, plastic debris causes the deaths of more than a million seabirds every year, as well as more than 100,000 marine mammals. Syringes, cigarette lighters and toothbrushes have been found inside the stomachs of dead seabirds, which mistake them for food. Plastic is believed to constitute 90 per cent of all rubbish floating in the oceans. The UN Environment Programme estimated in 2006 that every square mile of ocean contains 46,000 pieces of floating plastic, Dr Eriksen said the slowly rotating mass of rubbish-laden water poses a risk to human health, too. Hundreds of millions of tiny plastic pellets, or nurdles – the raw materials for the plastic industry – are lost or spilled every year, working their way into the sea. These pollutants act as chemical sponges attracting man-made chemicals such as hydrocarbons and the pesticide DDT. They then enter the food chain. "What goes into the ocean goes into these animals and onto your dinner plate. It's that simple," said Dr Eriksen.
Even allowing for "campaigning exaggeration" there does seem to be a problem.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:14 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> If they start charging around here, I *will* start bringing my own. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/the-worlds-rubbish-dump-a-garbage-tip-t hat-stretches-from-hawaii-to-japan-778016.html
> Even allowing for "campaigning exaggeration" there does seem to be a > problem. I am not denying that. I am simply denying that the plastic problem is directly linked to plastic shopping bags and neither of the above articles addresses this - they are about plastic rubbish in general. There are a whole lot of unnecessary plastic items, particularly wrapping, around, including the now disappearing 6-pack rings Tony mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but most shopping bags are re-used, often several times.
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Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 12:58 GMT > I am not denying that. I am simply denying that the plastic problem is > directly linked to plastic shopping bags and neither of the above [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but > most shopping bags are re-used, often several times. I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but this seems to have some photos and information:
http://www.nlen.ca/Reducing_Plastic_Bag_Use_in_St.John%27s-R.Harvey.pdf
Speaking from my own general impression, local debate seems to focus on the mess they make, not on their danger to wildlife. But it does seem that some wildlife try to eat them.
And I'm with you on the re-use of plastic shopping bags.
 Signature Cheryl
Mike Lyle - 25 Jan 2010 22:21 GMT >>>>> On Jan 21, 11:28 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > mentioned and small plastic bags that can't be used for anything, but > most shopping bags are re-used, often several times. Oh, come on! I mentioned plastic bags because it was plastic bags that were the subjec t of the conversation. And starch-filler ones (I think that's the recipe) do less harm than the other kind.
 Signature Mike.
Robert Bannister - 25 Jan 2010 23:26 GMT >>>>>> On Jan 21, 11:28 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > were the subjec t of the conversation. And starch-filler ones (I think > that's the recipe) do less harm than the other kind. Hey, I wasn't getting at you, but at the people who blast plastic bags regularly in the media. Plus Peter Garrett who didn't even acknowledge receipt of my letter.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle - 27 Jan 2010 20:48 GMT [...]
>>> -- >> Oh, come on! I mentioned plastic bags because it was plastic bags [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > regularly in the media. Plus Peter Garrett who didn't even acknowledge > receipt of my letter. Oh, right. Sorry.
 Signature Mike.
Default User - 22 Jan 2010 20:26 GMT > If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own. > I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so > apiece: I don't really like plastic bags much. Unlike others here, none of my wastebaskets are small enough for the grocery bags to be usable as liners. I use a few to bring cans of soda into work, but I have many more that accumulate, even though I have a couple of the reusable cloth bags. Those are nice, but I have a problem with forgetting to put them in the Bronco.
Brian
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 22 Jan 2010 22:17 GMT >> If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own. >> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > liners. I use a few to bring cans of soda into work, but I have many > more that accumulate, Ours end their lives on litter-box detail. We have two litter boxes (one upstairs and one downstairs), and it's easiest to grab one of these bags, scoop the two boxes, tie them off, and drop them into the garbage. (Actually, into a separate closed bucket.)
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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 21:40 GMT >>> If they start charging around here, I will start bringing my own. >>> I'll go on-line and buy plastic grocery bags in bulk at a penny or so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >these bags, scoop the two boxes, tie them off, and drop them into the >garbage. (Actually, into a separate closed bucket.) My wife tells me that the refuse collectors are recycling some of our bags back to us. The council supplies a wheely bin for garden rubbish, a clear sack for plastic bottles, a small box for paper and a purple sack for non-recyclable rubbish. They empty the bin and box, and take those sacks away. But they also expect us to recycle cans and bottles, which we put outside in carrier bags or other plastic bags. These are emptied into the truck and the bags thrown back into the garden. They also expect us to recycle cardboard boxes, which they do not collect from the house. We give them to the dog, who tears them into purple-bag-sized chunks with some alacrity.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Tasha Miller - 20 Jan 2010 20:38 GMT >> A student is asking: >> ---- [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > groceries have been scanned, the operator already knows how you're > paying. Yes. We can also scan some loyalty cards such as Fly Buys ahead so all we have to do before the paper receipt starts pouring out of the printer is tap out our PIN. The last question we are asked at a checkout counter is "PIN or sign?" because some people don't have a PIN on their credit card and have to physically sign the shop's copy of the EFT/POS receipt.
> The word "charge" is rarely heard in Australia in this context. I > assume you're talking about some sort of plastic card. We call those > either a credit card or a savings account card. If the shop has their own credit card or store card (aka charge card) the sales assistant will ask if we have it by name, as in "Do you have your Myer Card?". They will also ask if we have a loyalty card and, if not and it's during a membership drive for either, offer to sign us up for one right there and then.
> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to > ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next > time please bring your own bag." In Victoria Coles and Target make us buy plastic bags if we haven't brought our own, while Woolworths and Kmart aren't as sanctimonious and do what they've always done, which is to include the cost of the bags in the price of their goods. The boot of my car is full of "green" bags in various colours. Apart from the zipped supermarket chiller bags most of them are free bags picked up at events so they provide a mini-historical record of my wanderings over the last year or so.
>> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir >> store? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the >> question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?' "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but usually the gummy shark. Other species are available.) You might be asked if you want your fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or pineapple rings?"
> Are you sure the question was about Australia? Both of those sound > quite foreign to me. The "Cod or haddock" sounds British to me.
Peter Moylan - 20 Jan 2010 23:36 GMT >>> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the >>> question of 'Cod or haddock?' 'Wrapped or open?' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > want your fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or > pineapple rings?" This varies by region, partly because of variations in the locally available fish species and partly because of varying perceptions about the acceptability of shark meat. Flake is indeed a common option in Victoria, but I've rarely seen it on offer in NSW.
The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for potato cakes in NSW you'll get a blank stare, because they're called scallops here. If you want the things that Victorians call scallops, you have to ask explicitly for Tasmanian scallops. One of those traps that travellers often fall into.
(If you see "bugs" as an option, order them. Delicious. Usually you have to go to a seafood restaurant rather than a fish shop to get them, though.)
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Amethyst Deceiver - 24 Jan 2010 18:58 GMT >The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for >potato cakes in NSW you'll get a blank stare, because they're called >scallops here. If you want the things that Victorians call scallops, you >have to ask explicitly for Tasmanian scallops. One of those traps that >travellers often fall into. I was very confused the first time I went the chippy here in West Yorkshire. I was asked if I wanted a scallop with my haddock and chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried.
the Omrud - 24 Jan 2010 19:12 GMT >> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a > shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried. Yep, that one threw me when visiting Wife's home. The other problem was the chip shop which only sold Fish, Chips, Pies and "Jumbo". Turned out that Jumbo was a large fish.
We once stopped at a chip shop in the Pennines, on our way home. We explained that we were driving back to Manchester at which point the lady told us that when we reached the "border" (between Yorshire and Lancashire), the chips would "go sour".
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Amethyst Deceiver - 24 Jan 2010 19:50 GMT >>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >>> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >the chip shop which only sold Fish, Chips, Pies and "Jumbo". Turned out >that Jumbo was a large fish. And I was offered the choice of a white or brown tea cake for my chip butty once. Again, confused southerner was confused.
>We once stopped at a chip shop in the Pennines, on our way home. We >explained that we were driving back to Manchester at which point the >lady told us that when we reached the "border" (between Yorshire and >Lancashire), the chips would "go sour". I'd be surprised if they lasted long enough to make it to the border. Around here they hardly last long enough to get from teh chippy to the house.
Nick - 24 Jan 2010 21:38 GMT >>The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >>Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a > shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried. When my (Lancashire) mum used to cook those for our Saturday tea she called them "Scotch Scallops".
Googling on SSs produces a lot of recipes involving potato, but all the ones I looked at included mince or onions or both, and weren't battered or deep fried.
You know, I'm fancying one of those right now!
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Frank ess - 25 Jan 2010 00:02 GMT >>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by >>> region. Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You know, I'm fancying one of those right now! One of my raised-in-Utah mother's once-a-fortnight dishes was "scalloped potatoes". Sliced, covered with a cream-of-mushroom sauce, topped with sharp Cheddar, and baked uncovered. By the time there was browning of the cheese, the potatoes were cooked. I see the item listed on menus in some chain restaurants, and what the kitchen produces seems to do without mushroom or cheese. Don't rememer ever seeing onion in them at home or out.
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Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:14 GMT >>The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >>Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >chips. Where I came from, a scallop was (and, indeed, still is) a >shellfish. Here it's a slice of potato, battered and deep-fried. The potato slice is shaped like a scallop shell (sort of), so I think the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders.
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annily - 27 Jan 2010 04:52 GMT >>> The extra options available at a fish and chip shop also vary by region. >>> Dim sims and spring rolls are very widely available. If you ask for [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato > cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders. "potato cake" is also common in South Australia (at least it was when I last visited fish and chip shops).
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Bob Martin - 27 Jan 2010 07:37 GMT >On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver
>>I was very confused the first time I went the chippy here in West >>Yorkshire. I was asked if I wanted a scallop with my haddock and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the name is okay. "Scalloped" if you like. Vics call them "potato >cakes", which seems quaint to outsiders. Isn't "scallop" just short-hand? I always knew them as scalloped potatoes.
Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 13:58 GMT >>On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Isn't "scallop" just short-hand? I always knew them as scalloped potatoes. That's what I've always called them. For something that tastes so good, IMO, they are easy to make. From scratch, of course.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 27 Jan 2010 14:11 GMT >>On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:58:31 +0000, Amethyst Deceiver > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Isn't "scallop" just short-hand? I always knew them as scalloped potatoes. They are also know as "potato scallops" in some places.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister - 21 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT > "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the generic > fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but usually the > gummy shark. Other species are available.) You might be asked if you > want your fish grilled or battered and 'any potato cakes, dim sims or > pineapple rings?" I don't even see "flake" any more. Most fish and chip places seem to have gone in for correct names, which can cause a little confusion for interstate travellers since many fish have different names in different states. Still, if you just ask for "one serve of fish and chips", shark is what you'll get most of the time - I say "most of the time", because occasionally shark gets more expensive than whatever the local fish is.
> The "Cod or haddock" sounds British to me. We do have a few fish that include "cod" in their name, but they are no relation to the Atlantic cod. Haddock is definitely non-Australian. Ours will mainly have dhufish, snapper and shark with maybe cobbler, swordfish and groper if it's a bigger shop with a larger menu. South Australian chippies have snoek and garfish to frighten visitors with.
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Rob Bannister
annily - 21 Jan 2010 05:44 GMT >> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > swordfish and groper if it's a bigger shop with a larger menu. South > Australian chippies have snoek and garfish to frighten visitors with. That used to be "snook" in my younger days. I think "snook" and "snoek" can actually refer to different species, depending on the state. Certainly the entries in the Macquarie Dictionary are different, although with some overlap.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT >>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Certainly the entries in the Macquarie Dictionary are different, > although with some overlap. Sorry, I'm sure you're right about snook. I also omitted S.A. "butterfish" - I never did know what they are called elsewhere, but they taste okay.
I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an oddity of the West?
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Richard Bollard - 22 Jan 2010 02:57 GMT >I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - >I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it >hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring >roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an >oddity of the West? I've heard tell that it was Chinese for "small snack" but that may not be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dim_sim
I prefer them steamed but they are normally only fried hereabouts. Melbourne, when I lived there, was the home of the steamed dim sim. Takeaways would have a double boiler sitting on the hot plate from which they could be dispensed when wanted. They went into a lined paper bag that held up against the soy sauce. Yum.
You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water and turn them at half-time).
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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Robin Bignall - 22 Jan 2010 22:39 GMT >>I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - >>I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water >and turn them at half-time). A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere near as good as the stuff that those Chinese restaurants that bother to serve dim sum make themselves. I must have found half a dozen shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was all from one manufacturer, and not very good.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 17:59 GMT > A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food > shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere > near as good as the stuff that those Chinese restaurants that bother > to serve dim sum make themselves. I must have found half a dozen > shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was > all from one manufacturer, and not very good. There's a guy in Palo Alto who makes his own. When I was at Stanford in the '80s, his restaurant (including kitchen) was about the size of a decent-sized bedroom and had seating for about three. (He since acquired the tiny space next door and now has seating for about eight.) Anyway, in addition to serving food, mainly to go, he had a freezer chest at the front of the store, and if you were lucky (you never knew what might be there), you could buy several dozen bao or pot stickers or other dumplings. For those of us in dorm rooms with no kitchens, but electric steamers, Cho's bao was nearly as common as Domino's pizza late at night, and tasted way better.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken. | Larry Wall kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572
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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 21:48 GMT >> A decade ago when I was more mobile I visited as many Chinese food >> shops as I could find to see if I could buy frozen dim sum anywhere [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >no kitchens, but electric steamers, Cho's bao was nearly as common as >Domino's pizza late at night, and tasted way better. I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook. It literally took me all day, the results were fairly tasty, but it was exhausting. Like sushi, I think it's better to sit back and let the experts prepare it for you.
I checked a couple of takeaway menus recently, and each had a couple of dim sums as "starters", but you still have to get into London's Chinatown (from here) to find a restaurant that serves 20 or so different ones as a complete lunch.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 22:24 GMT > I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I > found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook. It literally took me all > day, the results were fairly tasty, but it was exhausting. Like > sushi, I think it's better to sit back and let the experts prepare > it for you. We've done it a couple of times for dinner parties, but as you say, it's a *lot* of work.
> I checked a couple of takeaway menus recently, and each had a couple > of dim sums as "starters", but you still have to get into London's > Chinatown (from here) to find a restaurant that serves 20 or so > different ones as a complete lunch. So is "dim sum" a count noun where you are? Saying "dim sums" sounds to me like talking about "sushis".
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Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 22:38 GMT >> I tried years ago to make four or five dim sums myself to recipes I >> found, probably in a Ken Hom cookbook. It literally took me all [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >So is "dim sum" a count noun where you are? Saying "dim sums" sounds >to me like talking about "sushis". Probably not.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT >>>I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - >>>I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was >all from one manufacturer, and not very good. The ones in the supermarket are all from the one, bland manufacturer (and these are the same as most hamburger joints fry). Asian grocery stores are increasingly stocking a great range of frozen-things-in-wrappers that can be steamed.
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Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 14:05 GMT snip
>> I must have found half a dozen >>shops and supermarkets, and discovered that their frozen dim sum was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >stores are increasingly stocking a great range of >frozen-things-in-wrappers that can be steamed. What are your favourites and are you sure the ingredients in these frozen-things-in-wrappers, bought from the supermarket you frequent, can be trusted for quality? I'd be wary of them, but then I'm a nut for freshness.
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Richard Bollard - 02 Feb 2010 00:34 GMT >snip > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >can be trusted for quality? I'd be wary of them, but then I'm a nut >for freshness. I don't eat them very often (or at all) but I see they are available.
They shouldn't be any more dangerous than anything else you can buy in shops. I would prefer to make my own as I can control the amount of seasoning.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:07 GMT >> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - >> I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You can buy them frozen and nuke them in the microwave (add some water > and turn them at half-time). Looks as if I got it wrong - I thought the little dumplings were called dim sum and that dim sim was a brand name.
 Signature Rob Bannister
annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:10 GMT >>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > "butterfish" - I never did know what they are called elsewhere, but they > taste okay. Oh, of course. I completely forgot butterfish too. I don't buy fish and chips much these days. That was probably the most common species in fish and chip shops here when I did.
> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - > I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it > hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring > roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an > oddity of the West? I think they're fairly common here in SA too, but as I said, it's a while since I visited a fish and chip shop.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:15 GMT >>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > I think they're fairly common here in SA too, but as I said, it's a > while since I visited a fish and chip shop. This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat "butterfish":
http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
annily - 22 Jan 2010 08:15 GMT >>>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >>>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733 Oops, make that 4 years old.
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John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 01:40 GMT > This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat > "butterfish": > > http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733 It's a pity that substitution has skunked the name, because there is also a lot of very good fish sold as butterfish. Morwong (aka Tarakihi in NZ) is delicious, and mulloway is another good one.
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Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:17 GMT >> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't eat >> "butterfish": [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > also a lot of very good fish sold as butterfish. Morwong (aka Tarakihi > in NZ) is delicious, and mulloway is another good one. Another inter-state mix-up: I thought morwong and muloway were the same fish.
 Signature Rob Bannister
John Holmes - 27 Jan 2010 09:31 GMT >>> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't >>> eat "butterfish": [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Another inter-state mix-up: I thought morwong and muloway were the > same fish. Common names can get very confusing, I agree. But according to what I can find at fishbase.org, I can't see any overlap between what gets called mulloway and morwong anywhere.
Mulloway is genus Argyrosomus and possibly Protonibea (Family Sciaenidae). Morwong is Nemadactylus, Dactylophora or Goniistius (Family Cheilodactylidae).
At the next level up, they all belong to Order Perciformes, but then so do a lot of other fish.
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Robert Bannister - 28 Jan 2010 01:46 GMT >>>> This link is 3 years old, but if it's still true, I'm glad I don't >>>> eat "butterfish": [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > At the next level up, they all belong to Order Perciformes, but then so > do a lot of other fish. I have to believe you. One of those occasionally appears in my local fish shop here in the West, but under a different name. I don't think I've ever seen the other, but I thought I'd read somewhere that they were the same - could have been some other fish.
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Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:11 GMT >>>>>> "Flake" is the default fish, as far as I recall. (Flake is the >>>>>> generic fish and chip shop name for several species of shark, but [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > http://www.growfish.com.au/content.asp?contentid=5733 Googling myself, I find a variety of results from "Vietnamese catfish banned in three countries" to mulloway.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan - 22 Jan 2010 10:10 GMT > I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - > I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it > hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring > roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an > oddity of the West? Australia-wide, it appears, but apparently they can't be found outside Australia. I gather that Chinese people don't consider them to be genuine Chinese food, even though it looks as if they were invented by a Chinese Australian.
I don't agree with your "poor cousin" label. They're much nicer than spring rolls.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 03:03 GMT >> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim >> sims - I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > genuine Chinese food, even though it looks as if they were invented > by a Chinese Australian. William Wing Young. He was from an interesting family that had lived and worked in Australia for three generations But each generation returned to China to marry and have children before bringing them back to Australia. His grandfather was one of the gang that built the original railway to Echuca.
> I don't agree with your "poor cousin" label. They're much nicer than > spring rolls. They vary in quality, but the better ones are quite good. Especially steamed, not fried.
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Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 18:47 GMT ...
> I also forgot one thing most of our fish'n'chips shops sell: dim sims - > I'm not sure whether this the original brand name item or whether it > hasn't become a sort of generic name for a poor cousin to the spring > roll (ie nothing like a dim sum) - is this Australia-wide or just an > oddity of the West? Maybe dim sim is to dim sum as Sim City is to a city.
-- Jerry Friedman likes dim sum. Mm.
John Holmes - 23 Jan 2010 04:35 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Maybe dim sim is to dim sum as Sim City is to a city. Or just a different dialect or transliteration of dim sum. As I understand it the inventor tried to get as close to what the family in China made, but using only ingredients that were easily available in Australia at the time (1930s-40s, IIRC). So they have minced meat, cabbage, onion, salt and pepper in a wrapper of won-ton pastry.
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Mike Lyle - 20 Jan 2010 21:34 GMT [...]
> If you do pay by credit or debit card, the operator is then likely to > ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash > at the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract > an extra fee.) In fact this option is not available with a credit > card, but it's often not possible to tell by looking at the card > whether it's a debit or a credit card. In BrE that's called "cashback", spelt as one word, but not the same kind of cashback referred to by David in this thread.
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Mark Brader - 20 Jan 2010 23:24 GMT Peter Moylan:
> > If you do pay by ... debit card, the operator is then likely to > > ask "Any extra cash out?", because many people like to withdraw cash > > at the supermarket rather than at an ATM. (Using an ATM might attract > > an extra fee.) Mike Lyle:
> In BrE that's called "cashback", spelt as one word... Same here. Except I'd expect it to be two words, but I may be out of date on that.
Peter's use of "attract" is interesting; I've encountered it, but only as jargon of financial professionals talking about taxes.
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annily - 20 Jan 2010 23:21 GMT >> A student is asking: >> ---- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to > phase out the plastic bags as well. And that's already done in South Australia. Bring your own bag(s) or buy a "green" one in the shop. The other day, I saw that paper bags were back at K-Mart though.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
annily - 20 Jan 2010 23:33 GMT >>> A student is asking: >>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And that's already done in South Australia. Bring your own bag(s) or buy > a "green" one in the shop. Oh, you can buy plastic ones too, I guess. The plastic ones are generally thicker than the ones the supermarkets used to give away. The thickness is prescribed in state legislation, I think.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Marius Hancu - 21 Jan 2010 07:58 GMT [snip]
Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student:
--- When a cashier asks you a question 'How will you be paying for that?' can I reply 'Do you take traveller's checks?' Or does it sound awkward in Australian English? ---
Marius Hancu
annily - 21 Jan 2010 09:31 GMT > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in Australian English? > --- It doesn't sound awkward to me, but as I've never used traveller's checks (or cheques) in Australia, I don't know what sort of establishments would take them.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 12:38 GMT > Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student: > > --- > When a cashier asks you a question 'How will you be paying for that?' > can I reply 'Do you take traveller's checks?' Or does it sound awkward > in Australian English? No, it doesn't sound awkward. I would say "cheques" rather than "checks", but the pronunciation is the same. (And "checks" is probably more correct, given that most of them appear to be issued by US entities.)
I can predict, however, that the answer will almost certainly be "no". Banks and some hotels will take travellers' cheques, I believe, but apart from that they're not widely accepted.
It must be ten or twenty years since I last tried to use travellers' cheques in Europe, and there too I discovered that shops don't like them. They seem to be falling out of use.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:24 GMT >> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > cheques in Europe, and there too I discovered that shops don't like > them. They seem to be falling out of use. I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a cheque from the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35 - for that, I will have to go into a branch of my bank, fill out a stupid form, wait in a queue and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller.
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Richard Bollard - 22 Jan 2010 02:58 GMT >>> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other >cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller. That's tellin' him.
It may be of interest to note that most Australian cash *is* plastic these days. Paper money, a thing of the past.
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Mark Brader - 22 Jan 2010 06:01 GMT Rob Bannister:
> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in > the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a cheque from > the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35 - for that, I will have > to go into a branch of my bank, fill out a stupid form, wait in a queue > and flirt with the teller... I hope you're either bisexual or get the right sort of teller, then.
If I receive a payment by check, I normally go to the ATM and put it in a deposit envelope. No humans involved. If I happen to go to a teller, there are still no forms to fill out -- the bank did away with deposit and withdrawal slips a few years ago. (I actually find this annoying if I'm doing anything where I have to give a dollar amount, as I now have to speak it two or three times, instead of just writing it down once.)
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Robert Bannister - 23 Jan 2010 02:16 GMT > Rob Bannister: >> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I hope you're either bisexual or get the right sort of teller, then. There are a few bank guys, but mostly there are women of all ages who grow more beautiful as you queue. Did you never hear of the Tiller Girls - an early form of high kicking teller girl.
> If I receive a payment by check, I normally go to the ATM and put it in > a deposit envelope. No humans involved. If I happen to go to a teller, > there are still no forms to fill out -- the bank did away with deposit > and withdrawal slips a few years ago. (I actually find this annoying > if I'm doing anything where I have to give a dollar amount, as I now have > to speak it two or three times, instead of just writing it down once.) I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it once with a bank official standing next to me, but I was shaking.
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Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2010 02:31 GMT Rob Bannister:
>>> I got a cheque from the Lotteries Commission yesterday: a whole $35 >>> - for that, I will have to go into a branch of my bank...
> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. Ah, so it's the "have to" of phobia, not of banking rules. Got it. Thanks.
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Garrett Wollman - 23 Jan 2010 07:26 GMT >I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing >to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it >once with a bank official standing next to me, but I was shaking. I'm sure in (small) part to remedy this, the bank I use (Too Big To Fail, N.A.) has begun to replace its ATMs with units that scan the face of the check (or currency) right then and there, and (for check deposits) give you the option of a receipt with an image of the deposited item(s) on them as evidence of your deposit. (They do not, apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.)
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
R H Draney - 23 Jan 2010 08:45 GMT Garrett Wollman filted:
>>I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing >>to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is >no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.) I strongly suspect not...one of the big banks has been running an ad with a customer showing this feature to his friend...the friend then asks if it works with cash as well, and he demonstrates by borrowing a $20 bill and depositing it...(at the end of the ad, the friend has only just realized that his twenty bucks is now in the bank account of the other man)....r
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James Silverton - 23 Jan 2010 13:27 GMT Garrett wrote on Sat, 23 Jan 2010 07:26:28 +0000 (UTC):
>> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's >> one thing to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the >> other way. I did it once with a bank official standing next >> to me, but I was shaking.
> I'm sure in (small) part to remedy this, the bank I use (Too > Big To Fail, N.A.) has begun to replace its ATMs with units [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is no audible > shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.) I don't live in Australia, of course, but my bank now takes checks for deposit at ATMs. It will only take one at a time without a deposit envelope but produces a receipt with a photocopy of the check face. I don't pay in checks very often but so far so good. I have only used the ATMs outside my bank office not those in stores.
 Signature James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
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Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:19 GMT >> I'm scared of putting my money into a hole in the wall. It's one thing >> to get money out this way, but I don't trust it the other way. I did it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > apparently, truncate the check on the spot -- or if they do, there is > no audible shredder noise -- but I don't have a way to verify that.) Now that would be fun.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:07 GMT >>> Thank you all. Another related question from the same ESL student: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and flirt with the teller, and yet I see on television that some other > cheating swine has won $15 million - hope he gets an ugly teller. Can't you deposit it through an ATM? I do (but they don't read them, and if it's not in Canadian currency, they deposit it as though it were, and then you have the tedious business of sorting out the mess).
Or by mail. You used to be able to mail them in. There were special forms, but it worked for me if I just wrote a covering letter saying what I wanted them to do with the cheque. And they'd send me the special form and an envelope with the receipt.
 Signature Cheryl
Default User - 22 Jan 2010 20:21 GMT > I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments > in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > television that some other cheating swine has won $15 million - hope > he gets an ugly teller. In the US it's possible to deposit checks at ATMs.
Brian
 Signature Day 354 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 01:09 GMT >> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments >> in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > In the US it's possible to deposit checks at ATMs. That's also possible in Australia, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to ensure that the details are correctly recorded.
I might take the risk for $35, though.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 17:51 GMT >>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any >>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to > ensure that the details are correctly recorded. I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as the treasurer of my HOA[1]. The ATM scans the check and determines how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with images of all of the checks deposited[3].
[1] About half of the unit owners pay on-line. This means that a clearinghouse prints up a check and sends it through the mail to the HOA mailing address. I could probably set it up so that the money could be transferred directly, but I believe that that would cost money, and receiving the check gives me the impetus to record the payment.
[2] presenting a thumbnail of each with its decision and allowing me to enlarge the image and run a magnifying glass over it and correct it if it's wrong...I've had a couple out of hundreds where it was wrong and only one where it gave up. (The guy had written, in the number slot, $200.00+$75, apparently having written the number wrong at first.)
[3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is a popular delusion that the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |government wastes vast amounts of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |money through inefficiency and sloth. |Enormous effort and elaborate kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |planning are required to waste this (650)857-7572 |much money | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Tasha Miller - 24 Jan 2010 04:55 GMT >>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any >>>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with > images of all of the checks deposited[3]. Impressive. Once we tell the ATM we will be making a deposit it extrudes an envelope into which we have to insert our cheque(s) and cash before allowing the ATM to gobble them up. All we get back is a slip of paper that couldn't really be considered a receipt because the contents of the envelope have to be verified before the deposit is applied to the account.
However, I do occasionally deposit cheques via an ATM and haven't yet had a problem. I write very few cheques myself and they are usually to individuals or businesses who don't like to give out their account details for people to deposit directly into their accounts. I hate receiving them! (Well, I like receiving the money but I'd rather it was delivered in a more convenient form,)
> [1] About half of the unit owners pay on-line. This means that a > clearinghouse prints up a check and sends it through the mail to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > [3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the > bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt. Mark Brader - 24 Jan 2010 08:59 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as >> the treasurer of my HOA[1]. The ATM scans the check and determines >> how much it's for[2], totals it up and prints out a receipt with >> images of all of the checks deposited[3]. Tasha Miller:
> Impressive. Once we tell the ATM we will be making a deposit it extrudes an > envelope into which we have to insert our cheque(s) and cash before allowing > the ATM to gobble them up. All we get back is a slip of paper... They're more trusting here. The envelopes are in a rack next to the machine, and I've found it to be pretty rare that they're missing. (On the one or two occasions when it *has* happened, I've gone to another bank nearby and taken one of theirs. So far I've gotten away with it.)
For years the deposit envelopes had the ordinary kind of flap that you lick, but nowadays at the bank I normally use, it's a press-to-stick flap instead, which is more convenient and works better too.
 Signature Mark Brader | "...most people who borrow over $1,000,000 from a bank Toronto | would at least remember the name of the bank." msb@vex.net | -- Judge Donald Bowman, Tax Court of Canada
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Richard Bollard - 27 Jan 2010 02:07 GMT >Evan Kirshenbaum: >>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >lick, but nowadays at the bank I normally use, it's a press-to-stick >flap instead, which is more convenient and works better too. Those were used here from the word go but I think they were dropped because nobody needed or wanted them. Cheques are dying out.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 14:09 GMT >>Evan Kirshenbaum: >>>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Those were used here from the word go but I think they were dropped >because nobody needed or wanted them. Cheques are dying out. I'd much rather mail Totally Unknown Company X a check, as I generally do, than give them my credit card number.
 Signature
Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
tony cooper - 27 Jan 2010 14:27 GMT >>>Evan Kirshenbaum: >>>>> I use the ATM to deposit checks for thousands of dollars each month as [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >I'd much rather mail Totally Unknown Company X a check, as I generally >do, than give them my credit card number. So you don't mind giving out your bank name, the routing numbers, and your account number. (Assuming your checks are the same as US checks) Your loss is capped, or non-existant, if your credit card is used fraudulently and you follow the proper procedures. Is your bank account as safe?
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 12:41 GMT >>>>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any >>>>> sort. Payments in the modern world are made with plastic card or [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> [3] They remove the bottom strip of the check from the image, so the >> bank routing numbers aren't on the receipt. I'm astonished about all this modern technology! Careless me, I've been depositing cheques and even cash in bank machines for years, and all I get back is a slip of paper saying I've deposited X dollars. Nothing scanned, no photocopies of anything. Of course, I can check online the next day to make sure that the bank clerk emptying the machine credited me with the right amout, which invariably happens unless I deposit something from the US and the clerk doesn't notice it's not in Canadian funds (note: This is a bad idea. They do straighten it out, but it's a pain. And they might not catch minor differences between what you entered and what's on the cheque, although I bet they notice really quickly if the difference is a big on, in my favour.).
I suppose we'll be getting those fancy machines locally sometime.
 Signature Cheryl
Mark Brader - 24 Jan 2010 18:11 GMT Cheryl Perkins:
> Careless me, I've been > depositing cheques and even cash in bank machines for years, and all I > get back is a slip of paper saying I've deposited X dollars. Nothing > scanned, no photocopies of anything. Likewise.
> Of course, I can check online the > next day to make sure that the bank clerk emptying the machine credited > me with the right amout, which invariably happens unless I deposit > something from the US and the clerk doesn't notice it's not in Canadian > funds (note: This is a bad idea. They do straighten it out, but...) If your bank works the same way as all the ones I've use, you have to type in the correct amount before depositing the item. If it's a US dollar item, you can't possibly do that, since you don't know the applicable exchange rate! Haven't they told you that? No wonder you've had trouble.
With an ordinary ATM, that is. My bank branch has one ATM that's stocked with US cash as well as Canadian, and accepts deposits in both currencies too. But you select a US-dollar button before starting the transaction: you still aren't relying on the clerk to notice.
 Signature Mark Brader "...if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, Toronto it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. msb@vex.net That's logic." --Tweedledee (Lewis Carroll)
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Cheryl - 24 Jan 2010 19:37 GMT > Cheryl Perkins: >> Careless me, I've been [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > applicable exchange rate! Haven't they told you that? No wonder > you've had trouble. I only did it once. I think I must have input the amount as though it were Canadian dollars. No wonder the bank got it wrong.
Once, I put in something with the numbers of cents off by a bit, and some bank clerk who must have been having a bad day said that they don't bother checking the exact amounts when I called up to explain what I'd done. I don't think I believe her. When I worked as a teller, in pre-ATM days, there was quite an emphasis on getting the numbers on the bits of paper to add up correctly and balance.
> With an ordinary ATM, that is. My bank branch has one ATM that's stocked > with US cash as well as Canadian, and accepts deposits in both currencies > too. But you select a US-dollar button before starting the transaction: > you still aren't relying on the clerk to notice. I guess we're much too small a centre for that sort of thing - even the main branches, or at least those I used the machine in, don't have that option. Maybe they will eventually, now that it's more common to have an account in US$
 Signature Cheryl
Robin Bignall - 24 Jan 2010 22:00 GMT >>> I think it's just a general aversion to cheques of any sort. Payments >>> in the modern world are made with plastic card or cash. I got a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >anyone doing it. It would make me too nervous. I like to be there to >ensure that the details are correctly recorded. I live near a small market town and my bank has such little frontage that there's only space for its door and a cash dispenser. It's not really an ATM. If you want to deposit cheques you have to go inside during banking hours to another machine that only accepts cheques in sterling.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:20 GMT > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Marius Hancu I can't think of another way of putting even if the cashier doesn't ask you. You need to pay with traveller's cheques, then you need to ask.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Nick Spalding - 21 Jan 2010 12:31 GMT Peter Moylan wrote, in <n62dnSAQ5eJuf8vWnZ2dnUVZ8o2dnZ2d@westnet.com.au> on Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:03:13 +1100:
> We don't get this choice anywhere in Australia, as far as I know. The > supermarkets stopped using paper bags years ago. Now they're trying to > phase out the plastic bags as well. What you're most likely to hear is > something like "Well, I can give you a plastic bag this time, but next > time please bring your own bag." The Irish Government brought in a levy on plastic shopping bags in 2002, originally 15c but I it went up to 22c in 2007. All the shops sell sturdy reusable ones, generally fabric, with their advertising on them for about one Euro.
 Signature Nick Spalding BrE/IrE
Narelle - 26 Jan 2010 12:04 GMT > A student is asking: > ---- > At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be > asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' No
'Paper or plastic?'
No
> How about in other stores such as a clothing store or a souvenir > store? No
> When you buy fish and chips in Australia, will you be asked the > question of 'Cod or haddock?' No
'Wrapped or open?'
No
> --- > -- > Thanks. > Marius Hancu Narelle
John Savage - 27 Jan 2010 12:24 GMT >> A student is asking: >> ---- >> At the checkout counter in a supermarket in Australia, will you be >> asked the question of 'Cash, charge, or debit?' > >No IME the checkout person always waits mutely to see whether I wave a plastic card or come up with a fistful of cash.
Sometimes I am asked, "Any flybuys?"
FWIW I concur with all of Narelle's other answers.
> 'Paper or plastic?' > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >No '>Wrapped or open?'
>No > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Narelle  Signature John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 16:30 GMT John Savage filted:
>>> A student is asking: >>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Sometimes I am asked, "Any flybuys?" What's that in this hemisphere?...
Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any help getting my purchases to my car....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Cheryl - 27 Jan 2010 17:13 GMT > John Savage filted: >>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any > help getting my purchases to my car....r I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" - as though I'd wait until I was at the checkout and then hold everyone up by asking "No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?"
 Signature Cheryl
R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 17:38 GMT Cheryl filted:
>>Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any >> help getting my purchases to my car....r [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they >are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?" I find myself answering that one in the negative more and more frequently these days..."everything but the horseradish", that kind of response...the other day, the woman ahead of me (whom I had met in the canned-fish section) put in her plea for anchovies, and I watched to see where they took her in case I need any myself in the near future....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Percival P. Cassidy - 27 Jan 2010 22:13 GMT > I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" - as though > I'd wait until I was at the checkout and then hold everyone up by asking > "No, I couldn't find the bananas. Would you please tell me where they > are, or perhaps send someone to get me some?" My usual -- and truthful -- answer to that question is, "Yes, and a whole lot more besides."
Perce
annily - 28 Jan 2010 04:46 GMT >> John Savage filted: >>>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> > I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Peter Moylan - 28 Jan 2010 08:10 GMT >> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" > > Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South > Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet. Cheryl is Canadian, I believe. The Downunda supermarkets are more concerned to check whether you've updated your Frequent Flyer points.
Those points are not to be sneered at, by the way. I got a free trip to Melbourne last year, with a discounted fare for the return trip. I'm still trying to figure out what my Woolworths card entitles me to; WW is remarkably coy about what its card does, and I'm starting to suspect that it gives me nothing but junk mail.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
annily - 28 Jan 2010 08:52 GMT >>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" >> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South >> Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet. >> > Cheryl is Canadian, I believe. The Downunda supermarkets are more > concerned to check whether you've updated your Frequent Flyer points. Yes, I always get asked if I have a Frequent Flyer card, and I've never bothered to join.
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
Richard Bollard - 02 Feb 2010 00:37 GMT >>>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" >>> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Yes, I always get asked if I have a Frequent Flyer card, and I've never >bothered to join. You get bugger-all for your actual spending but I get reasonable rewards for using my credit card for everything. I see the rewards (which I take as credit) as an offset of the card's annual fee.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Cheryl - 28 Jan 2010 10:38 GMT >>> I get "Did you find everything you were looking for today?" >> Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > remarkably coy about what its card does, and I'm starting to suspect > that it gives me nothing but junk mail. Hey, Sobey's has a Frequent Flyer point program, too. Actually a lot of businesses belong to the same program. I cashed in some of my points a while back for grocery coupons, boring but useful.
At least one of the other stores here has the option of turning your points in their program in for cash; well, not cash exactly, but a cash card you can use in that store.
 Signature Cheryl
Cheryl - 28 Jan 2010 10:36 GMT >>> John Savage filted: >>>>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Where are you? I've certainly never heard that in a supermarket in South > Australia. Perhaps it hasn't made it down under yet. Canada. It's a feature of the Sobey's chain, which originated in eastern Canada, although I think it's now across Canada. I was going to say it's probably now a subsidiary of XYZ Corporation, but actually, I think it is the overall boss of its group of companies, since aside from their Sobey's stores, they run various other groceries aimed at various demographics and regions (eg their 'Price Chopper' stores are a lot messier and supposedly cheaper than their 'Sobey's' stores). And there's their drugstore chain, and I'm pretty sure they own a local grocery distributer.
I can't remember if their main local rival has their clerks say anything more than a cheerful "Good morning!". They're very perky.
 Signature Cheryl
Narelle - 27 Jan 2010 21:09 GMT > John Savage filted: >>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Sometimes I'm asked "any ice or stamps?"...one chain always asks if I need any > help getting my purchases to my car....r They are shopping reward points. You are issued a card, similar to a credit card, and swipe it or have it scanned at the checkout. Acquired at certain shops on an X points-per-dollar ratio. Save up so many and you can trade them for goods. Supposedly an incentive to shop at Coles-Myer owned shops. https://www.flybuys.com.au
Narelle
Robin Bignall - 27 Jan 2010 21:25 GMT >> John Savage filted: >>>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Coles-Myer owned shops. >https://www.flybuys.com.au These sound to be something like Nectar cards in the UK, the use of which in stores that support them builds up points that can be exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash off). What do we call these in the UK? They're not store cards.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 27 Jan 2010 21:50 GMT >>> John Savage filted: >>>>>> A student is asking: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash >off). What do we call these in the UK? They're not store cards. They are "loyalty cards".
Nectar cards are a service/product of Loyalty Management UK Limited whcih in turn is owned by Groupe Aeroplan which:
is the global leader in loyalty management. Groupe Aeroplan owns Aeroplan, Canada’s premier loyalty program, Carlson Marketing, an international loyalty marketing services engagement and events provider headquartered in the US, as well as Nectar, the United Kingdom’s leading coalition loyalty program. In the Gulf Region, Groupe Aeroplan owns 60 per cent of Rewards Management Middle East, the operator of Air Miles programs in the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Bahrain. Groupe Aeroplan also operates LMG Insight & offering worldwide services to retailers and their suppliers. http://www.groupeaeroplan.com/pages/index.php
I assume that Nectar is described as a *coalition* loyalty program because it is used by several store groups rather than just one.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Nick Spalding - 28 Jan 2010 10:53 GMT Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com> on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000:
> These sound to be something like Nectar cards in the UK, the use of > which in stores that support them builds up points that can be > exchanged for goods, or a deduction from one's bill (in effect, cash > off). What do we call these in the UK? They're not store cards. My local supermarket calls them reward cards. I don't think that is a generic term though.
 Signature Nick Spalding BrE/IrE
Mike Lyle - 01 Feb 2010 15:41 GMT > Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com> > on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My local supermarket calls them reward cards. I don't think that is a > generic term though. I think that probably is the generic name, though a Wikiskim suggests there are other meanings. A "loyalty card" seems to me slightly different, as it only works in one shop or group. I hate this term, as I don't want to think of myself as being "loyal" to a supermarket.
 Signature Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Feb 2010 16:20 GMT >> Robin Bignall wrote, in <4lb1m5l4ul1738g2m70utl21l2fndnsehi@4ax.com> >> on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:25:59 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >different, as it only works in one shop or group. I hate this term, as I >don't want to think of myself as being "loyal" to a supermarket. As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a "loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is possible to "earn" Nectar Points when purchasing at various retailers which are independent of one another. It is also possible to buy goods with Points (redeem them) at retailers that do not award them.
There is also a hybrid means of getting Nectar points. If you go via the Nectar website to certain online stores that do not themselves award Nectar points, Amazon.co.uk or eBay.co.uk, for example, you will earn points on your purchase. This does not happen if you go directly to the online store's site. Someone must have calculated that all of this is beneficial to all the stores involved.
For the inquisitive: http://www.nectar.com/NectarHome.nectar
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Wood Avens - 01 Feb 2010 16:39 GMT >As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a >"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >For the inquisitive: >http://www.nectar.com/NectarHome.nectar AIUI the benefit is the purchasing profile this exercise allows the marketing analysts to develop of each customer, in order that advertising, special offers, etc, may be targeted specifically at the customers likely to respond to them. That is, it enables them to press our money-spending buttons more accurately.
 Signature Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Feb 2010 18:45 GMT >>As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a >>"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >customers likely to respond to them. That is, it enables them to >press our money-spending buttons more accurately. Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data Warehouse. Intro to Data Warehousing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_warehouse
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Feb 2010 11:45 GMT >>>As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a >>>"loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Intro to Data Warehousing: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_warehouse And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining. http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/data-mining.html
One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect someone was having fun when choosing that name - the models are Mathematical Models not Catwalk Models: http://www.the-modeling-agency.com/data-mining-definition.html
There's more to the definition of data mining than simply creating warehouses of servers that record transactions and customer contacts. As implied by its name and definition, to get the most out of data mining, this data needs to be massaged and manipulated to transform raw data into information upon which a company can act. .... The definition of data mining lets you address more than just CRM [Customer Relationship Management] issues. You can use some of the same tools for problems such as fraud detection, inventory management, and the collection of receivables.
The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=95260&dict=CALD&topic=faking-and- pretending massage verb (LIE) to try to make facts or numbers appear better than they really are in order to deceive somebody "Television companies have been massaging their viewing figures in order to attract more advertising revenue."
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Nick - 02 Feb 2010 18:39 GMT >>Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data >>Warehouse. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining. > http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/data-mining.html It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a piece of data mining software: Clementine.
 Signature Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Feb 2010 18:46 GMT >>>Yes. All this information about our spending is stored in a Data >>>Warehouse. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a >piece of data mining software: Clementine. Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that one.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 02 Feb 2010 19:55 GMT BrE filted:
>>> And making some sense of all this data is known as Data Mining. >> >>It took a while for the penny to drop, but I rather enjoy the name of a >>piece of data mining software: Clementine. > >Ah, yes. I'd forgotten that one. Right up there with "Nero Burning ROM"....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Nick - 02 Feb 2010 20:52 GMT > BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Right up there with "Nero Burning ROM"....r Not speaking German, I didn't get that one until I read an explanation of it.
 Signature Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Mark Brader - 03 Feb 2010 00:43 GMT Peter Duncanson:
> One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect > someone was having fun when choosing that name - the models are > Mathematical Models not Catwalk Models: I like it.
> http://www.the-modeling-agency.com/data-mining-definition.html > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. No, it's just redundant. "Massaging" is a common slang term for manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant information. There is no implication of impropriety.
(<crooked_editor>What implication did you want there to be?</>)
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "Astronauts practice landing on laptops" msb@vex.net | --Ft. Myers, FL, News-Press, March 13, 1994
My text in this article is in the public domain.
tony cooper - 03 Feb 2010 04:53 GMT >Peter Duncanson: >> One company that specialises in this is The Modeling Agency. I suspect [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant >information. There is no implication of impropriety. I would differentiate "massaging" and "manipulating" in that context. I massage the data to derive the relevant information, but would not manipulate the data because that would falsely portray results.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader - 03 Feb 2010 05:14 GMT Peter Duncanson:
>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. Mark Brader:
>> No, it's just redundant. "Massaging" is a common slang term for >> manipulating data, which means processing it to derive the relevant >> information. There is no implication of impropriety. Tony Cooper:
> I would differentiate "massaging" and "manipulating" in that context. > I massage the data to derive the relevant information, but would not > manipulate the data because that would falsely portray results. I would differentiate them too: one is slang for the other. There is no implication of impropriety. Of course that usage *also* exists, but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "Gwyneth Paltrow always says I'm a msb@vex.net | shameless name dropper" -- Roger Ford
My text in this article is in the public domain.
tony cooper - 03 Feb 2010 05:47 GMT >Peter Duncanson: >>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >is no implication of impropriety. Of course that usage *also* exists, >but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity. Wouldn't that depend on who you are talking to? Someone who works in the field may agree with you, but if I hear the data has been manipulated, I'm certainly going to suspect impropriety.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Pat Durkin - 03 Feb 2010 17:58 GMT >>Peter Duncanson: >>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the field may agree with you, but if I hear the data has been > manipulated, I'm certainly going to suspect impropriety. Hey, you are talking statistics here. Was there ever a statistic that wasn't selected to prove a given point? Doesn't the devil use statistics?
There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics. (Don't know whom I am quoting--certainly not who you are talking to! )
James Hogg - 03 Feb 2010 18:02 GMT >>> Peter Duncanson: >>>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > and then there are statistics. > (Don't know whom I am quoting--certainly not who you are talking to! ) Mark Twain (another statistic).
 Signature James
Evan Kirshenbaum - 03 Feb 2010 20:08 GMT > Peter Duncanson: >>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > is no implication of impropriety. Of course that usage *also* > exists, but "manipulation" is the standard term for the activity. As someone who works (sort of) in the data mining field, I'd have to say that I'd make the same distinction Tony does. "Massaging" data means things like running SQL queries to extract it from a database, converting it from XML to CSV format, imputing missing values, removing suspicious outliers, extracting feature vectors, anonymizing it, or converting text to a common character set. Transformations technically required in order to perform an analysis but not inherently introducing any particular bias. "Manipulating" data implies a conscious attempt to choose the data or form of analysis in order to achieve a particular result.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Jitze - 04 Feb 2010 02:43 GMT >> Peter Duncanson: >>>>> The phrase "massaged and manipulated" is a bit worrying. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >implies a conscious attempt to choose the data or form of analysis in >order to achieve a particular result. 'S funny - because when I was active in the trade, "manipulating" frequently meant *some* of what Evan calls "massaging". We would "manipulate" data in disparate relational databases by a sequence of join, project, restrict, operations (i.e. more than just simple queries which are just simple "projections") potentialy followed by hairier non-SQL manipulations (sorting, grouping and summary totalling or "pivoting") and so forth - all of this "manipulation" being done to derive "info" from "data" as a first step on the way to "intelligence". Massaging was a much more informal term and tended to imply something like "lining up and cleaning the data" to get it into the format/shape expected by the software that was going to process it (sometimes also referred to as "impedance matching" by double-E types) and that usage jibes with what Evan describes above.
In very simplistic terms: Manipulate = Mix, boil down, extract essence Massage = reformat and re-shape for input matching
Jitze
Robert Bannister - 02 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT >> As I mentioned in another post the Nectar card is described as a >> "loyalty card" by its providers, Loyalty Management UK Limited. It is [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > customers likely to respond to them. That is, it enables them to > press our money-spending buttons more accurately. See the article in "Choice": http://tinyurl.com/yffsmlb or http://www.choice.com.au/Reviews-and-Tests/Money/Shopping-and-Legal/Shopping/Sho pping-loyalty-cards/page/Introduction.aspx
 Signature Rob Bannister
R H Draney - 28 Jan 2010 00:02 GMT Narelle filted:
>> John Savage filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >you can trade them for goods. Supposedly an incentive to shop at >Coles-Myer owned shops. Thank you....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
John Savage - 06 Feb 2010 23:17 GMT >> A student is asking: >> ---- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >No It's understood that if you desired a particular species, you would have asked for it. Being that you didn't, then you take whatever they give you, and in batter. (In any case, haddock is not a local species here.)
'>Wrapped or open?'
>No Usually I am asked, "Salt?"
Further to the matter of paying with plastic in supermarkets,.. Immediately the cashier spies my shaky fumbling with a Mastercard this triggers a reflex, "Any cash out?" Being asked this question sometimes mildly annoys me, for even were I to answer in the affirmative, I know that in short time the cashier is going to deny me cash when he/she discovers my grimy fingers to be stabbing the "debit" button.
But I can't see any workable alternative to being asked at that juncture.
>> --- >> -- >> Thanks. >> Marius Hancu > >Narelle  Signature John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
annily - 07 Feb 2010 00:12 GMT >>> A student is asking: >>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that in short time the cashier is going to deny me cash when he/she > discovers my grimy fingers to be stabbing the "debit" button. I don't understand that. The buttons on all EFTPOS machine I have seen in Australia are marked with abbreviations of "savings", "cheque" and "credit", and you can't get cash out if you select "credit". The neqarest to "debit" I can think of would be "savings" and you can get cash with that.
Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"?
 Signature Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions.
John Savage - 07 Feb 2010 12:18 GMT >> Further to the matter of paying with plastic in supermarkets,.. >> Immediately the cashier spies my shaky fumbling with a Mastercard this [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"? "Credit" is indeed what I meant. Apologies where my oversight caused confusion.
More often than not, I make my selection by pressing the button which bears no label -- it's blank. I surmise that it originally would have carried some designation but now ablated by tens of thousands of manicured nails relentlessly registering their impatience.
 Signature John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
Richard Bollard - 09 Feb 2010 04:47 GMT >>>> A student is asking: >>>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Did you mean "credit" instead of "debit"? I didn't know that cash was unavailable with "credit". I thought that it would be treated as a cash advance with ruinous interest charged immediately.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Robert Bannister - 11 Feb 2010 00:30 GMT >>>>> A student is asking: >>>>> ---- [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > it would be treated as a cash advance with ruinous interest charged > immediately. I think you can get cash from your credit account at an ATM, but definitely not from EFTPOS.
 Signature Rob Bannister
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