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Did "awful" use to mean "awsome"

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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 21:02 GMT
<<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
Gibbon

Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 21:03 GMT
On Jan 21, 4:02 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
> affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
> Gibbon
>
> Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

I mean awesome.
Peter Moylan - 21 Jan 2010 22:49 GMT
> On Jan 21, 4:02 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I mean awesome.

Yes, "awful" had that meaning in the not-too-distant past. It's now
joined that huge collection of words that used to have strong meanings -
think of terrific, fantastic, and so on - but have had their meanings
eroded by over-use.

"Awesome" is headed in the same direction. "Awe-inspiring" is still
safe, because people don't over-use longer words.

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Joachim Pense - 22 Jan 2010 05:17 GMT
Peter Moylan (in sci.lang):

> Yes, "awful" had that meaning in the not-too-distant past. It's now
> joined that huge collection of words that used to have strong meanings -
> think of terrific, fantastic, and so on - but have had their meanings
> eroded by over-use.

I recall that when one of the WTC towers collapsed the CNN speaker described
the sight as "terrific". Does anyone else remember that? I am not sure if I
didn't confuse anything here; is "terrific" appropriate in such a situation,
did the speaker use the wrong word and meant to say "terrible", or did I
just confuse what I heard myself?

Joachim
Stan Brown - 23 Jan 2010 14:42 GMT
Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:49:34 +1100 from Peter Moylan
<gro.nalyomp@retep>:
> "Awesome" is headed in the same direction. "Awe-inspiring" is still
> safe, because people don't over-use longer words.

Functionality.

:-)

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Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 23:24 GMT
> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:49:34 +1100 from Peter Moylan
> <gro.nalyomp@retep>:
>> "Awesome" is headed in the same direction. "Awe-inspiring" is still
>> safe, because people don't over-use longer words.
>
> Functionality.

You're right. I was thinking only of those words that get their meanings
weakened because of exaggeration. Management-speak doesn't just weaken
meanings; it twists the meanings to something utterly unrelated to the
original word.

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R H Draney - 23 Jan 2010 23:53 GMT
Peter Moylan filted:

>> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:49:34 +1100 from Peter Moylan
>> <gro.nalyomp@retep>:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>meanings; it twists the meanings to something utterly unrelated to the
>original word.

Please confirm your identity....r

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Peter Moylan - 24 Jan 2010 06:41 GMT
> Peter Moylan filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Please confirm your identity....r

I hereby confirm that I am, on reflection, identical to my mirror image.

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Harlan Messinger - 21 Jan 2010 21:05 GMT
> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
> affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
> Gibbon
>
> Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

"Awful" originally meant, strangely enough, "full of awe".
Harlan Messinger - 21 Jan 2010 21:08 GMT
>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "Awful" originally meant, strangely enough, "full of awe".

Compare "terrific" = "terror-producing", originally.

In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
today mean by "terrific".
Harlan Messinger - 21 Jan 2010 21:10 GMT
>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> today mean by "terrific".

Compare (guess who I'm spoofing here) Russian "khorosho" = "good" with
English "horror show".
R H Draney - 21 Jan 2010 21:17 GMT
Harlan Messinger filted:

>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Compare (guess who I'm spoofing here) Russian "khorosho" = "good" with
>English "horror show".

Note that Japanese "maishu" means "weekly" and has nothing to do with
footwear....r

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Jerry Friedman - 21 Jan 2010 21:26 GMT
On Jan 21, 3:10 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> >> "Awful" originally meant, strangely enough, "full of awe".

And by Gibbon's time had gained the sense of "causing awe", at about
the same level of strangeness.

> > Compare "terrific" = "terror-producing", originally.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Compare (guess who I'm spoofing here) Russian "khorosho" = "good" with
> English "horror show".

Malcolm McDowell?

--
Jerry Friedman is just kidding on that last.
Harlan Messinger - 21 Jan 2010 21:42 GMT
> On Jan 21, 3:10 pm, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And by Gibbon's time had gained the sense of "causing awe", at about
> the same level of strangeness.

I'd glossed over that part of the semantic shift, but it was in no way
an isolated instance of the shift X-ful -> filling with X, X-producing:

  She showed a woeful lack of concern.
    (i.e., her lack of concern would fill an observer with woe)

  He arrived here under doubtful circumstances.

  That's a dreadful, frightful color combination.

>>> Compare "terrific" = "terror-producing", originally.
>>> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Malcolm McDowell?

With his drugi in the moloko bar, yes.
Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 04:04 GMT
>On Jan 21, 3:10 pm, Harlan Messinger
><hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>And by Gibbon's time had gained the sense of "causing awe", at about
>the same level of strangeness.

Yes, something awesome should make you feel awful.

But full seems to be becoming empty nowadays.

Lots of people say "purposefully" when they mean "purposely", and let's not
get started on "hopefully".

It's the difference betwen ancient English and modern English.

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R H Draney - 22 Jan 2010 05:54 GMT
Steve Hayes filted:

>Yes, something awesome should make you feel awful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>It's the difference betwen ancient English and modern English.

What's your take on the confusion between "tortuous" and "torturous"?...r

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Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 17:26 GMT
>Steve Hayes filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>What's your take on the confusion between "tortuous" and "torturous"?...r

I don't see much of them. In fact I can't recall ever having seen the latter.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 22 Jan 2010 17:42 GMT
>>Steve Hayes filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>I don't see much of them. In fact I can't recall ever having seen the latter.

I hear "torturous" on British TV shows out of the mouths (moufs) of
younger (20s) presenters and others.

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(in alt.usage.english)

James Hogg - 22 Jan 2010 17:55 GMT
>>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>>> Yes, something awesome should make you feel awful.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I hear "torturous" on British TV shows out of the mouths (moufs) of
> younger (20s) presenters and others.

You can also see it in the works of Disraeli's dad.

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James

benlizro@ihug.co.nz - 22 Jan 2010 21:26 GMT
> >>> Steve Hayes filted:
> >>>> Yes, something awesome should make you feel awful.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> James

They're both legitimate words, according to OED. They give a couple of
(20th century) instances which they consider incorrect use of
"tortuous" (twisty) where "torturous" (painful) would have been
appropriate. By now it seems the two are thoroughly confused, but some
people have come to believe that only one form is correct, for both
meanings.

Ross Clark
Steve Hayes - 23 Jan 2010 12:23 GMT
>They're both legitimate words, according to OED. They give a couple of
>(20th century) instances which they consider incorrect use of
>"tortuous" (twisty) where "torturous" (painful) would have been
>appropriate. By now it seems the two are thoroughly confused, but some
>people have come to believe that only one form is correct, for both
>meanings.

I've seen tortuous a few times, as in "tortuous track", clearly chosen because
it was more alliterative than "winding".  can't recall having heard
"torturous" much, though what comes to mind is the sensation caused by a
beginner trying to learn the violin or clarinet.

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Nick - 23 Jan 2010 13:20 GMT
>>They're both legitimate words, according to OED. They give a couple of
>>(20th century) instances which they consider incorrect use of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I've seen tortuous a few times, as in "tortuous track", clearly chosen because
> it was more alliterative than "winding".  

In the Pennine foothills near Rivington there certainly used (25 years
ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign that said
"Narrow and Tortuous Road".
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 23 Jan 2010 13:44 GMT
>>>They're both legitimate words, according to OED. They give a couple of
>>>(20th century) instances which they consider incorrect use of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign that said
>"Narrow and Tortuous Road".

A challenge for any lawyers present: Use tortuous, torturous and
tortious in a single (credible) sentence.

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(in alt.usage.english)

Stan Brown - 23 Jan 2010 14:47 GMT
Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:20:45 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
address.org.uk>:
> In the Pennine foothills near Rivington there certainly used (25
> years ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign
> that said "Narrow and Tortuous Road".

Are you holding that up as an example of a misuse?  It looks right to
me: a narrow road that twists and turns.

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Nick - 23 Jan 2010 16:22 GMT
> Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:20:45 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
> address.org.uk>:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Are you holding that up as an example of a misuse?  It looks right to
> me: a narrow road that twists and turns.

No, just as an example of the word in very normal - I'm tempted to say
"pedestrian" - use.  It was in response to it being used alliteratively,
that was all.
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Stan Brown - 24 Jan 2010 06:01 GMT
Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:22:32 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
address.org.uk>:

> > Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:20:45 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary-
> > address.org.uk>:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "pedestrian" - use.  It was in response to it being used alliteratively,
> that was all.

Thanks!

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Peter T. Daniels - 23 Jan 2010 22:24 GMT
> > On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:26:04 -0800 (PST), "benli...@ihug.co.nz"
> > <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign that said
> "Narrow and Tortuous Road".

Over here "Winding Road" is the standard signage. (Or was until it was
replaced by an icon of a wiggly arrow.)
Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:22 GMT
>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:26:04 -0800 (PST), "benli...@ihug.co.nz"
>>> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Over here "Winding Road" is the standard signage. (Or was until it was
> replaced by an icon of a wiggly arrow.)

And I thought that meant watch out for snakes on the road.

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Ruud Harmsen - 24 Jan 2010 09:14 GMT
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:22:19 +0800: Robert Bannister
<robban1@bigpond.com>: in sci.lang:

>>> In the Pennine foothills near Rivington there certainly used (25 years
>>> ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign that said
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>And I thought that meant watch out for snakes on the road.

You mean it doesn't mean a doctor lives nearby and this is his
reserved parking place?

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Nick - 24 Jan 2010 12:37 GMT
>> > On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:26:04 -0800 (PST), "benli...@ihug.co.nz"
>> > <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Over here "Winding Road" is the standard signage. (Or was until it was
> replaced by an icon of a wiggly arrow.)

We've got a sort of N-tilted-through-45-degrees symbol. That's why the
sign has stuck in my memory all these years, it somehow doesn't feel to
be a "road sign word" - too literary perhaps.
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Brian M. Scott - 24 Jan 2010 17:32 GMT
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:37:00 +0000, Nick
<3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote in
<news:87bpgjznkj.fsf@temporary-address.org.uk> in
sci.lang,alt.usage.english:

[...]

>>> In the Pennine foothills near Rivington there certainly
>>> used (25 years ago) to be an official, but
>>> pre-standardisation, road sign that said "Narrow and
>>> Tortuous Road".

>> Over here "Winding Road" is the standard signage. (Or was
>> until it was replaced by an icon of a wiggly arrow.)

> We've got a sort of N-tilted-through-45-degrees symbol.
> That's why the sign has stuck in my memory all these
> years, it somehow doesn't feel to be a "road sign word" -
> too literary perhaps.

Somewhere in southern Scotland about 20 years ago there was
an official sign that read 'Caution: Free-Range Children'.
(I don't vouch for the punctuation.)  Not quite so literary,
but it has always tickled my funny-bone.

Brian
Trond Engen - 24 Jan 2010 19:16 GMT
Brian M. Scott:

> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:37:00 +0000, Nick
> <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (I don't vouch for the punctuation.)  Not quite so literary,
> but it has always tickled my funny-bone.

The summer we moved in here the children down the street had been given
one of those small motorcycles, and they drove back and forth from early
saturday morning to late sunday night. One morning I came up with the
idea of getting one of those "Kjør forsiktig, barn leker" ("Drive
carefully, children playing") signs and switch the verbs, but a couple
of hours later the thing broke down, and it hasn't been seen or heard
ever since. I was almost bitter for that.

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Trond Engen

PaulJK - 25 Jan 2010 04:00 GMT
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 12:37:00 +0000, Nick
> <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> (I don't vouch for the punctuation.)  Not quite so literary,
> but it has always tickled my funny-bone.

If I saw a sign like that today I would be very tempted
to get out my black indelible marker and insert the
words "100% Organic".
pjk
Steve Hayes - 24 Jan 2010 18:42 GMT
>> I've seen tortuous a few times, as in "tortuous track", clearly chosen because
>> it was more alliterative than "winding".  
>
>In the Pennine foothills near Rivington there certainly used (25 years
>ago) to be an official, but pre-standardisation, road sign that said
>"Narrow and Tortuous Road".

Just this morning I saw that someone used it in a blog post. I suppose this
discussion has made me more aware of it.

"That there is a tortuously reached conclusion is not the problem – there is
an indirect connection in terms of the forces behind each of these
phenomena..."

Looks OK to me.

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Steve Hayes - 23 Jan 2010 12:19 GMT
>>>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>>>> Yes, something awesome should make you feel awful.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>You can also see it in the works of Disraeli's dad.

I've got some of those, I think -- well, edited by him anyway, an anthology
called "Curiosities of literature".

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John Varela - 22 Jan 2010 22:39 GMT
> Lots of people say "purposefully" when they mean "purposely", and let's not
> get started on "hopefully".

Pet peeve: "regretfully" when "regrettably" is meant.

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Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 23:56 GMT
>> Lots of people say "purposefully" when they mean "purposely", and let's not
>> get started on "hopefully".
>
> Pet peeve: "regretfully" when "regrettably" is meant.

I suppose it's asking too much to expect "momentarily" to mean "for a
very short period of time" instead of "soon".

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Cheryl

Stan Brown - 23 Jan 2010 14:54 GMT
Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:

> I suppose it's asking too much to expect "momentarily" to mean "for a
> very short period of time" instead of "soon".

I'm afraid that ship has sailed, along with "presently" to mean
"right now" rather than "sooner or later, when I/you get around to
it."  Two quotes from /Hamlet/:

"Ham. ... How now, my lord? Will the King hear this piece of work?
"Pol. And the Queen too, and that presently."

"Pol. My lord, the Queen would speak with you, and presently."

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2010 22:45 GMT
> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "right now" rather than "sooner or later, when I/you get around to
> it."

Do you suppose that people in the fifteenth century bemoaned the fact
that "presently" was being used to mean "right now" instead of
"without delay"?

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Peter Moylan - 23 Jan 2010 23:26 GMT
> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> "Pol. My lord, the Queen would speak with you, and presently."

I read both of those as having the "without delay" meaning.

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Stan Brown - 24 Jan 2010 06:03 GMT
Sun, 24 Jan 2010 10:26:59 +1100 from Peter Moylan
<gro.nalyomp@retep>:

> > Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> I read both of those as having the "without delay" meaning.

And so do I, but only when I first read the play, it glossed
"presently" as "right away" or similar.  To me, "presently" has
always meant "by and by".

Does it still mean "right away" in England?

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Steve Hayes - 24 Jan 2010 18:50 GMT
>And so do I, but only when I first read the play, it glossed
>"presently" as "right away" or similar.  To me, "presently" has
>always meant "by and by".

That's what it seems to mean in Beatrix Potter.

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Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Brian M. Scott - 24 Jan 2010 17:42 GMT
On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:54:26 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
<news:MPG.25c4d7af756d4d6698bec8@news.individual.net> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:

>> I suppose it's asking too much to expect "momentarily" to
>> mean "for a  very short period of time" instead of
>> "soon".

> I'm afraid that ship has sailed, along with "presently" to
> mean  "right now" rather than "sooner or later, when
> I/you get around to  it."  

It's never meant 'sooner or later, when I/you get around to
it'; the actual meaning in question is 'as soon as possible,
without undue delay'.  Shakespeare's sense of 'at once' is
now obsolescent; the sense that competes with 'as soon as
possible' (and is decried by prescriptivists) is
'currently'.

[...]

Brian
Donna Richoux - 24 Jan 2010 22:56 GMT
> On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:54:26 -0500, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> It's never meant 'sooner or later, when I/you get around to
> it';

Oh, yes it did, although it is not what the prescriptive battle was
about. See, for example, the second meaning in the 1913 Webster:

2. At once; without delay; forthwith; also, less definitely, soon;
shortly; before long; after a little while; by and by.

I would say that "sooner or later" and "when I/you get around to it"
fall into the "also" part (soon, shortly, before long, after a little
while).

MW11 also gives this meaning, defining it as "before long."

The Dictionary of the Scots Language shows four or five uses of
"presently," including:

    4. a. Without any delay; at once, forthwith;
    immediately, directly. Passing into: b. After a short
     time, before long, soon, shortly.
   
What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage of
their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded like
"right now" but actually got stretched out to "in a while." I don't know
whether the OED or anyone has citations proving that, because we don't
know how fast things actually happened.

> the actual meaning in question is 'as soon as possible,
> without undue delay'.  

>Shakespeare's sense of 'at once' is
> now obsolescent; the sense that competes with 'as soon as
> possible' (and is decried by prescriptivists) is
> 'currently'.
>
> [...]

Yes, MW11's usage note agrees with you. The prescriptivist battle that
it describes has nothing to do with the "sooner or later" question
above. It says that the (unjustified) complaints by prescriptivists
concerned the sense meaning "now," such as "presently living in..." and
"presently paid by...." For their discussion, see:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/presently

The 1913 Webster's gives this as an example of the "obs." sense of
"now":

    The towns and forts you presently have. Sir P. Sidney.
 
If that was ever obsolete, it sure has made a comeback.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Brian M. Scott - 24 Jan 2010 23:17 GMT
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:45 +0100, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> wrote in
<news:1jcujgm.156xh4lswmbt0N%trio@euronet.nl> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

>> On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:54:26 -0500, Stan Brown
>> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
>> <news:MPG.25c4d7af756d4d6698bec8@news.individual.net> in
>> alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

>>> Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:26:07 -0330 from Cheryl <cperkins@mun.ca>:

>>>> I suppose it's asking too much to expect "momentarily" to
>>>> mean "for a  very short period of time" instead of
>>>> "soon".

>>> I'm afraid that ship has sailed, along with "presently" to
>>> mean  "right now" rather than "sooner or later, when
>>> I/you get around to  it."  

>> It's never meant 'sooner or later, when I/you get around to
>> it';

> Oh, yes it did, although it is not what the prescriptive battle was
> about. See, for example, the second meaning in the 1913 Webster:

> 2. At once; without delay; forthwith; also, less definitely, soon;
> shortly; before long; after a little while; by and by.

> I would say that "sooner or later" and "when I/you get around to it"
> fall into the "also" part (soon, shortly, before long, after a little
> while).

> MW11 also gives this meaning, defining it as "before long."

I consider all of those significantly different from 'when I
get around to it'.

[...]

> What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage of
> their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded like
> "right now" but actually got stretched out to "in a while."

Sounds more like something that satisfied someone's sense of
a good story than like a plausible explanation.

[...]

Brian
Donna Richoux - 24 Jan 2010 23:42 GMT
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:45 +0100, Donna Richoux
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I consider all of those significantly different from 'when I
> get around to it'.

That is loosely worded, yes, more insolent and much less urgent than "as
soon as I can," but I think it is the far end of the same spectrum.

> > What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage of
> > their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded like
> > "right now" but actually got stretched out to "in a while."
>
> Sounds more like something that satisfied someone's sense of
> a good story than like a plausible explanation.

It's been so long - I was only a teenager -- that I have to admit I have
no idea how close my memory and interpretation match what the writer
actually said. I may have oversimplified the case. But it is still my
recollection. I also recall there were two or three other expressions he
put in the same boat.

I'm as fond as anyone of being able to point to definitive sources, but
I don't remember the author and I do not see how I could reasonably
locate clear examples in historic literature ("presently" is such a
common word, and it would be rare to have enough clues in the passage to
know multiple expectations and outcomes), so I have no hope of gathering
some evidence here.

But your remark says you find it implausible. Can you explain why you
think it is not possible, since I think it fits the circumstances of the
shift in meaning?

I've seen people argue about what "plausible" means; I hope we agree
that it does not mean true, known to be true, or proven to be true. I'd
say it's "could possibly be true."

Signature

Best wishes -- Donna Richoux

Bart Mathias - 25 Jan 2010 18:33 GMT
> [...]
> some evidence here.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that it does not mean true, known to be true, or proven to be true. I'd
> say it's "could possibly be true."

Why not just "plausible" = "likely to be true" and "implausible" = "not
likely to be true"?
Steve Hayes - 25 Jan 2010 19:09 GMT
>> [...]
>> some evidence here.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Why not just "plausible" = "likely to be true" and "implausible" = "not
>likely to be true"?

Plausible = made to sound as though it could be true, as through the sales
patter of a snake oil salesman. Implausible -- not even Little Red Riding Hood
would believe it.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Brian M. Scott - 25 Jan 2010 18:53 GMT
>> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:45 +0100, Donna Richoux

>> >> It's never meant 'sooner or later, when I/you get around to it';

>> > Oh, yes it did, although it is not what the prescriptive battle was
>> > about. See, for example, the second meaning in the 1913 Webster:

>> > 2. At once; without delay; forthwith; also, less definitely, soon;
>> > shortly; before long; after a little while; by and by.

>> > I would say that "sooner or later" and "when I/you get around to it"
>> > fall into the "also" part (soon, shortly, before long, after a little
>> > while).

>> > MW11 also gives this meaning, defining it as "before long."

>> I consider all of those significantly different from 'when I get around
>> to it'.

> That is loosely worded, yes, more insolent and much less urgent than "as
> soon as I can," but I think it is the far end of the same spectrum.

Yes: further than I'd seen anyone go until Stan's comment.  My point is
that if it has acquired this extended meaning for some speakers, that's
something relatively new.

>> > What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage
>> > of their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded
>> > like "right now" but actually got stretched out to "in a while."

>> Sounds more like something that satisfied someone's sense of a good
>> story than like a plausible explanation.

[...]

> But your remark says you find it implausible. Can you explain why you
> think it is not possible, since I think it fits the circumstances of the
> shift in meaning?

I didn't say that it was impossible; I said that it was implausible (and
hence unlikely).  I did give one reason: it's too pat.  But in fact it's
not really very believable that such a deliberate stretching of the
meaning would be so common as to shift the meaning of the word.  Finally,
it's an unnecessary hypothesis: the extension in sense is a perfectly
natural one.

Brian
Donna Richoux - 25 Jan 2010 23:48 GMT
> >> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:45 +0100, Donna Richoux

[snip discussion of various meanings of "presently"

> >> > What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage
> >> > of their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I didn't say that it was impossible; I said that it was implausible (and
> hence unlikely).  

Maybe that was the same problem in the long-ago a.u.e discussion of
"plausible" -- some people appear to think that "plausible" means
"likely to be true" and "implausible" means "unlikely to be true," while
others (including me) use them to mean "possibly true, consistent with
what is known" and the opposite, "not possibly true, not believable."

By my use, there could be, for example, two or three plausible scenarios
explaining a situation. Any of them are possible, even though we don't
know which one is the true one. But there can't be two or three
different scenarios all judged "likely to be true" by the same observer,
because they would conflict with each other, and only one of them can be
true.

An implausible explanation doesn't hang together, it has at least one
flaw, it doesn't work, it could not (in the person's judgement) possibly
be true. It is not believable.

>I did give one reason: it's too pat.  

Now you're not even playing fair, and I suppose I should not bother
discussing it with you. You didn't call anything "pat." But now you
have. MW11's first meaning of "pat" is "exactly suited to the purpose or
occasion" which no one would complain about, so I suppose you mean the
second, "suspiciously appropriate : contrived."

I don't see what is suspicious or contrived about what I said. However,
as I said, we not going to be able to consult the original book, which
is probably the only chance of reaching a solid conclusion.

Signature

Donna Richoux

Stan Brown - 26 Jan 2010 03:13 GMT
Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:48:14 +0100 from Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl>:
> Maybe that was the same problem in the long-ago a.u.e discussion of
> "plausible" -- some people appear to think that "plausible" means
> "likely to be true" and "implausible" means "unlikely to be true," while
> others (including me) use them to mean "possibly true, consistent with
> what is known" and the opposite, "not possibly true, not believable."

Herewith another data point: I agree with the second set of meanings.

For "likely to be true" and "unlikely to be true" I would use
"probable" and "improbable".

Signature

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
                                  http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Brian M. Scott - 26 Jan 2010 05:59 GMT
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:48:14 +0100, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> wrote in
<news:1jcwh8p.14ghnp18p5b01N%trio@euronet.nl> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 00:42:05 +0100, trio@euronet.nl
>> (Donna Richoux) wrote in 1jcum8j.qo0745q7rximN%trio@euron
>> et.nl:

[...]

>>> But your remark says you find it implausible. Can you
>>> explain why you think it is not possible, since I think
>>> it fits the circumstances of the shift in meaning?

>> I didn't say that it was impossible; I said that it was
>> implausible (and hence unlikely).  

> Maybe that was the same problem in the long-ago a.u.e
> discussion of "plausible" -- some people appear to think
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> consistent with what is known" and the opposite, "not
> possibly true, not believable."

I disagree with both.  Plausibility has to do with
appearance.  A plausible argument is one that is
superficially persuasive, apparently convincing; on closer
examination it may turn out to be entirely specious, or it
may turn out to be perfectly sound.  In the present case the
explanation has a superficial appeal if one doesn't think
about it very hard.

[...]

>> I did give one reason: it's too pat.  

> Now you're not even playing fair, and I suppose I should
> not bother discussing it with you. You didn't call
> anything "pat."

I did not use the word, no; I wrote 'Sounds more like
something that satisfied someone's sense of a good story',
which is obviously saying that I found it too pat in a
specific way.  If you're not comfortable with the word,
substitute 'neat'.

> MW11's first meaning of "pat" is "exactly suited to the
> purpose or occasion" which no one would complain about,

On the contrary, that is precisely the complaint that I was
making: it's *too* neatly suited to common misconceptions
about society and linguistic change.
Stan Brown - 26 Jan 2010 03:11 GMT
25 Jan 2010 18:53:33 GMT from Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu>:
> Yes: further than I'd seen anyone go until Stan's comment.  My point is
> that if it has acquired this extended meaning for some speakers, that's
> something relatively new.

I first read /Hamlet/ 44 years ago, and up until then, the *only*
meaning I knew of "presently" was "in a bit".  For instance, "Press
the call button and the nurse will come to your room presently."  No
one expected the nurse to appear instantly.

This was in suburban Baltimore, Maryland, in case it's regional.

In my vocabulary, the primary meaning of "presently" is still "in a
bit (of time)" and not "right away". I was surprised by this
discussion to learn that "right away" is the primary meaning for the
majority.

Signature

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
                                  http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Brian M. Scott - 26 Jan 2010 06:00 GMT
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:11:52 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote in
<news:MPG.25c82780b6b73b8698befc@news.individual.net> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

> 25 Jan 2010 18:53:33 GMT from Brian M. Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu>:

>> Yes: further than I'd seen anyone go until Stan's comment.  My point is
>> that if it has acquired this extended meaning for some speakers, that's
>> something relatively new.

> I first read /Hamlet/ 44 years ago, and up until then, the *only*
> meaning I knew of "presently" was "in a bit".  For instance, "Press
> the call button and the nurse will come to your room presently."  No
> one expected the nurse to appear instantly.

Indeed; I agree.  But this is a very different understanding
from 'sooner or later, when I/you get around to it'; it's
the latter that startled me.

Brian
António Marques - 26 Jan 2010 17:34 GMT
Stan Brown wrote (26-01-2010 03:11):
> 25 Jan 2010 18:53:33 GMT from Brian M. Scott<b.scott@csuohio.edu>:
>> Yes: further than I'd seen anyone go until Stan's comment.  My point is
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> discussion to learn that "right away" is the primary meaning for the
> majority.

I've always interpreted presently to mean "that's the next thing of interest
(i.e. recallable later on) that will happen". It's seems to cover "in a
[little] while" as well as "right away".
António Marques - 25 Jan 2010 21:47 GMT
> I've seen people argue about what "plausible" means; I hope we agree
> that it does not mean true, known to be true, or proven to be true. I'd
> say it's "could possibly be true."

"Plausible" means "that which has the outward appearance of true".
It's only "likely to be true" because it looks/sounds/rings true. But
it could be false.
Peter Moylan - 25 Jan 2010 01:35 GMT
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:56:45 +0100, Donna Richoux
> <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in
> <news:1jcujgm.156xh4lswmbt0N%trio@euronet.nl> in
> alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

>> What I read years ago is that people such as servants took advantage of
>> their masters by saying "I will do it presently" which sounded like
>> "right now" but actually got stretched out to "in a while."
>
> Sounds more like something that satisfied someone's sense of
> a good story than like a plausible explanation.

It didn't have to be servants. Most people will, sooner or later, come
up with an utterance whose literal meaning is that they'll do something
quickly, but whose practical meaning includes a delay.

When I was growing up, "in a minute" was going through the same
transition. I had to learn that that sort of minute was not the same as
a clock minute. A little later, "I'll be with you in a second" was often
heard, and that "second" was invariably very much longer than its
predecessor "minute".

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Steve Hayes - 25 Jan 2010 02:42 GMT
>It didn't have to be servants. Most people will, sooner or later, come
>up with an utterance whose literal meaning is that they'll do something
>quickly, but whose practical meaning includes a delay.

The current favourite for that is ASAP.

In South Africa "just now" functions in the same sense, though it can also
mean a short time ago in the past -- "I saw him just now".

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Robert Bannister - 25 Jan 2010 23:32 GMT
>> It didn't have to be servants. Most people will, sooner or later, come
>> up with an utterance whose literal meaning is that they'll do something
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In South Africa "just now" functions in the same sense, though it can also
> mean a short time ago in the past -- "I saw him just now".

Some of us remember Jerry Pournelle in "Byte" mocking the developers'
"real soon now", which might mean in twelve months. I also rather like
the French "J'arrive".

Signature

Rob Bannister

Chuck Riggs - 26 Jan 2010 11:37 GMT
>>> It didn't have to be servants. Most people will, sooner or later, come
>>> up with an utterance whose literal meaning is that they'll do something
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Some of us remember Jerry Pournelle in "Byte" mocking the developers'
>"real soon now", which might mean in twelve months.

So that's where it came from. I remember reading Pournelle's column in
the olden days, in that wonderful magazine.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Nick - 27 Jan 2010 20:34 GMT
> Some of us remember Jerry Pournelle in "Byte" mocking the developers'
> "real soon now", which might mean in twelve months. I also rather like
> the French "J'arrive".

I'd guess that RSN was popular amongst SF fanzine publishers earlier
than that, but they might have adopted it from Pournelle.
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Stan Brown - 23 Jan 2010 14:51 GMT
22 Jan 2010 22:39:14 GMT from John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>:

> > Lots of people say "purposefully" when they mean "purposely", and let's not
> > get started on "hopefully".
>
> Pet peeve: "regretfully" when "regrettably" is meant.

Thankfully, no one was killed in the collision.

Regretfully, both passengers suffered broken bones in the collision.

Why is the first correct and the second not?  Is it just idiom, or is
there some logic?

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
                                  http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Skitt - 23 Jan 2010 21:16 GMT
> from John Varela:

>> Pet peeve: "regretfully" when "regrettably" is meant.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Why is the first correct and the second not?

Would that it were so.

Main Entry: re·gret·ful·ly
Pronunciation: \ri-'gret-f?-le\
Function: adverb
Date: 1682

1 : with regret
2 : it is to be regretted

Main Entry: re·gret·ta·bly
Pronunciation: \-ble\
Function: adverb
Date: 1866

1 : to a regrettable extent <a regrettably steep decline in wages>
2 : it is to be regretted <regrettably, they could not attend>

> Is it just idiom, or is there some logic?

Don't know.
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Skitt (AmE)

Cheryl - 21 Jan 2010 22:03 GMT
>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Compare (guess who I'm spoofing here) Russian "khorosho" = "good" with
> English "horror show".

I've discovered that 'fantastic' used to mean (maybe still does in some
places) bizarre, unbelievable, weird - that is, a thing of fantasy,
where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
thought the only meaning was 'great'.

Signature

Cheryl

the Omrud - 21 Jan 2010 22:20 GMT
>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
> thought the only meaning was 'great'.

Gosh.  Did "Fantastic" magazine mean nothing to you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_(magazine)

Signature

David

Peter T. Daniels - 21 Jan 2010 22:25 GMT
> >>>> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_(magazine)

Not to mention *Fantasy and Science Fiction*, which I bought every
month for Asimov's essay.

My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.
Brian M. Scott - 22 Jan 2010 01:51 GMT
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:25:04 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:8e4cd0b4-9906-4a7e-b953-7ee2c42739fe@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang,alt.usage.english:

[...]

>>> I've discovered that 'fantastic' used to mean (maybe still does in some
>>> places) bizarre, unbelievable, weird - that is, a thing of fantasy,
>>> where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
>>> thought the only meaning was 'great'.

>> Gosh.  Did "Fantastic" magazine mean nothing to you?

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_(magazine)

> Not to mention *Fantasy and Science Fiction*, which I
> bought every month for Asimov's essay.

And speaking of science fiction, there's Poul Anderson's 'A
Tragedy of Errors', which begins:

  Once in ancient days, the then King of England told Sir
  Christopher Wren, whose name is yet remembered, that
  the new Cathedral of St. Paul which he had designed was
  'awful, pompous, and artificial.' Kings have seldom been
  noted for perspicacity.

And ends by noting that in this case a compliment was
intended.  The story may be apocryphal; it's attached to
more than one monarch, and 'pompous' (splendid) is sometimes
replaced by 'amusing' (interesting).

> My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.

Brian
Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 04:07 GMT
>And ends by noting that in this case a compliment was
>intended.  The story may be apocryphal; it's attached to
>more than one monarch, and 'pompous' (splendid) is sometimes
>replaced by 'amusing' (interesting).

That reminds me that I still haven't managed to work out what the Victorians
meant by "interesting children".

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:34 GMT
>> And ends by noting that in this case a compliment was
>> intended.  The story may be apocryphal; it's attached to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That reminds me that I still haven't managed to work out what the Victorians
> meant by "interesting children".

I had this explained to me once, and forgot the details. But I have
found this, which backs up my vague memories. An interesting child is
one who is bright, eager to learn and well-behaved (virtuous).

(About a neglected child):
"Apart from her situation, she was not what would be called an
interesting child. She was neither pretty or quick in understanding, nor
remarkably pleasing in manners. "

http://www.victorianweb.org/previctorian/dequincey/opium3.html

"My dear little boy was now the only comfort I had left; he was then
four years old, a lovely aud interesting child ; but I dared not make to
myself another idol, as I was well convinced that in so doing, it would
be taken from me, and consequently strove to check every tender emotion.
He had been nearly a year at school, and began to read remarkably well,
for a child of his age."

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA205&dq=%22interesting%20child%22&cd=3&id=bpsY
AAAAYAAJ&output=text


"No sure prognostic can be made, but much is to be hoped from the
intelligence of the child, and the eager delight with which she lends
her attention, and the strong effort she evidently makes to gain new
ideas; not from fear of punishment, or hope of reward, but from the
pleasure which the exercise of the.faculties confers upon her. No pains
or expense will be spared in efforts to develope the moral and
intellectual nature of this interesting child, and no opportunity lost,
of gathering for science whatever phenomena her singular case may furnish."

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA76&dq=%22interesting%20child%22&cd=4&id=yEArA
AAAYAAJ&output=text


"It is impossible to behold from one hundred to one hundred and fifty
interesting children, from two to six years old, assembled together in
an orderly, regular manner, clean, and comfortably clad in general,
cheerful and happy, acquiring useful instruction and virtuous
impressions—and to contrast ...."

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA412&dq=%22interesting%20children%22&lr=&cd=20
&id=agkVAAAAIAAJ&output=text


Signature

Cheryl

Panu - 22 Jan 2010 09:42 GMT
> My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.

I must admit that some of Peter's cultural tastes I do find positively
awe-inspiring.
Peter Moylan - 22 Jan 2010 10:20 GMT
>> My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.
>
> I must admit that some of Peter's cultural tastes I do find positively
> awe-inspiring.

I wouldn't describe Philip Jose Farmer's writings as pornography, but he
certainly built up a reputation for challenging taboos. In particular
his novel "The Lovers" is a classic in this respect. I could say that it
was about interspecies sex, but that would be praising it with faint
damns. It has a lot more to it than that. Highly recommended. Awful, even.

I'll probably never forgive Farmer for his "Riverworld" series, but up
until that point he was a first-class writer.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 17:29 GMT
>>> My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I'll probably never forgive Farmer for his "Riverworld" series, but up
>until that point he was a first-class writer.

That's the only thing of his I read. Well, I read the first book, and then
skipped to the last one to try to find an explanation for the sdetup, which
was the only interesting thing about it and I couldn't be bothered waising
through all the rest. But the explanation wasn't very satisfactory either.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:12 GMT
>>>>>> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> My first pornography was a story therein by Philip Jose Farmer.

Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know 'fantasy' as a
sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an exclamation meaning 'great'.

Signature

Cheryl

R H Draney - 22 Jan 2010 20:07 GMT
Cheryl filted:

>Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know 'fantasy' as a
>sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an exclamation meaning 'great'.

Where "great", of course, is a rank of organ pipes....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2010 22:23 GMT
> Cheryl filted:
>
> >Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know 'fantasy' as a
> >sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an exclamation meaning 'great'.
>
> Where "great", of course, is a rank of organ pipes....r

The Great is a _division_ of an organ, the one played on the main
manual (usually second from the bottom), comprising several ranks. A
good-sized organ might have 20 ranks in the Great.
R H Draney - 23 Jan 2010 02:54 GMT
Peter T. Daniels filted:

>> Cheryl filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>manual (usually second from the bottom), comprising several ranks. A
>good-sized organ might have 20 ranks in the Great.

Swell....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Peter T. Daniels - 23 Jan 2010 03:40 GMT
> Peter T. Daniels filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Swell....r

Positive?
Robin Bignall - 23 Jan 2010 21:54 GMT
[AUE only]

>Peter T. Daniels filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Swell....r

That's a real hoot the second time.
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

R H Draney - 23 Jan 2010 23:55 GMT
Robin Bignall filted:

>[AUE only]
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>That's a real hoot the second time.

I believe you meant to say that to Steve Hayes....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Robin Bignall - 24 Jan 2010 22:05 GMT
>Robin Bignall filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>I believe you meant to say that to Steve Hayes....r

I'm no longer sure whose organ was doing what.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Hans Aberg - 23 Jan 2010 23:57 GMT
>>>> Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know 'fantasy' as a
>>>> sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an exclamation meaning 'grea=
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Swell....r

Somebody, when little, not knowing the difference, saw a button on a
pipe organ marked, "Swell to Great", and wondered what sound effect that
might be. :-)

  Hans
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2010 17:18 GMT
>>>>> Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know
>>>>> 'fantasy' as a sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> pipe organ marked, "Swell to Great", and wondered what sound effect
> that might be. :-)

A pretty good one, I'd expect.

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Hans Aberg - 25 Jan 2010 17:04 GMT
>>>>>> Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know
>>>>>> 'fantasy' as a sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> A pretty good one, I'd expect.

But only in English...

  Hans
Steve Hayes - 23 Jan 2010 12:24 GMT
>Cheryl filted:
>>
>>Ah, that was it, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I did know 'fantasy' as a
>>sub-genre, but 'fantastic' to me was merely an exclamation meaning 'great'.
>
>Where "great", of course, is a rank of organ pipes....r

Swell.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peter T. Daniels - 23 Jan 2010 12:38 GMT
> >Cheryl filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Swell.

Positive?
Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 11:11 GMT
>>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_(magazine)

I don't think I ever saw it, although I must have seen similar
publications. I used to be able to buy small magazines with science
fiction or mystery short stories in various locations. I think one of
them did have 'Fantastic' in the title, combined with something else,
but I can't remember which of the possibilities listed there might have
been it.

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Cheryl

Harlan Messinger - 21 Jan 2010 22:46 GMT
>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
> thought the only meaning was 'great'.

Also, the word "fancy" is a corruption of "fantasy".
DKleinecke - 22 Jan 2010 01:26 GMT
> >>> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> --
> Cheryl

Famous Fantastic Mysteries only quit publishing about sixty years
ago.  They had a sister magazine called Fantastic Novels.  If I
remember correctly.
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:32 GMT
>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
> thought the only meaning was 'great'.

Fabulous.

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Rob Bannister

Lars Eighner - 22 Jan 2010 03:43 GMT
>>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
>> thought the only meaning was 'great'.

> Fabulous.

Still means "fabulous" to me, especially in the case of "fabulous offer."

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 Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/>      Warbama's Afghaninam day: 51
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James Hogg - 22 Jan 2010 07:44 GMT
>>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Fabulous.

Another magazine, from which my sisters used to cut out pictures of
Herman's Hermits.

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James

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 04:05 GMT
>I've discovered that 'fantastic' used to mean (maybe still does in some
>places) bizarre, unbelievable, weird - that is, a thing of fantasy,
>where 'fantasy' doesn't mean cute fairies with wings. Until recently, I
>thought the only meaning was 'great'.

Fabulous.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com - 21 Jan 2010 21:21 GMT
On Jan 21, 4:08 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> today mean by "terrific".

If Esperanto had a terrebla, it would presumably mean one who can be
terrified.
benlizro@ihug.co.nz - 21 Jan 2010 22:12 GMT
On Jan 22, 10:08 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> today mean by "terrific".

As it happens I was thinking just yesterday about an example with the
same two suffixes as Ranjit's case. I think that "fearful" in my
English can describe either the fearer or the thing feared, while
"fearsome" means only the latter.

Ross Clark
Robert Bannister - 22 Jan 2010 01:34 GMT
> On Jan 22, 10:08 am, Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> English can describe either the fearer or the thing feared, while
> "fearsome" means only the latter.

There's a greater difference between handsome and handful.

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Rob Bannister

Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 01:46 GMT
[a.u.e. only]

> benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Jan 22, 10:08 am, Harlan Messinger
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> There's a greater difference between handsome and handful.

No hits on "Handsome Handful" at Amazon.  The title is free to any
romance novelist who wants it.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lars Eighner - 22 Jan 2010 03:45 GMT
>> On Jan 22, 10:08 am, Harlan Messinger
>> <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> English can describe either the fearer or the thing feared, while
>> "fearsome" means only the latter.

> There's a greater difference between handsome and handful.

Whatever's handy.

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Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 04:27 GMT
>> There's a greater difference between handsome and handful.
>
>Whatever's handy.

Or mobile.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 22 Jan 2010 11:33 GMT
>>> There's a greater difference between handsome and handful.
>>
>>Whatever's handy.
>
>Or mobile.

<applause>

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(in alt.usage.english)

Fred - 22 Jan 2010 03:57 GMT
On Jan 22, 10:08 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> today mean by "terrific".

That's wicked!
Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2010 04:15 GMT
> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> That's wicked!-

Only in Boston.
Chuck Riggs - 22 Jan 2010 12:46 GMT
>> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Only in Boston.

Don't forget Maine.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 22 Jan 2010 15:03 GMT
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:15:35 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Don't forget Maine.

Now you've gone and started a war in Cuba.
Peter T. Daniels - 22 Jan 2010 15:46 GMT
On Jan 22, 10:03 am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:15:35 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Now you've gone and started a war in Cuba.-

Is "Don't forget" the same as "Remember"?
R H Draney - 22 Jan 2010 20:08 GMT
Peter T. Daniels filted:

>On Jan 22, 10:03=A0am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>Is "Don't forget" the same as "Remember"?

The hell with "same"....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Chuck Riggs - 23 Jan 2010 12:48 GMT
>On Jan 22, 10:03 am, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Is "Don't forget" the same as "Remember"?

I think so.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 03:57 GMT
>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Compare "terrific" = "terror-producing", originally.

What all those terrific terrorists are trying to do, presumably.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

James Hogg - 22 Jan 2010 07:46 GMT
>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What all those terrific terrorists are trying to do, presumably.

Shock and awe.

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James

Peter Moylan - 22 Jan 2010 10:21 GMT
>>>>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>>>>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Shock and awe.

Winning hearts and minds with blood and guts.

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For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Stan Brown - 23 Jan 2010 14:40 GMT
Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:08:39 -0500 from Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net>:

> >> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> >> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> today mean by "terrific".

Back in college, when I studied Attic Greek, I was interested to
learn that the adverb deinos (omega, not omicron), meaning
"terribly", was used as a quantifier just as we do in English:  "It
was terribly hot yesterday."

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Donna Richoux - 23 Jan 2010 21:46 GMT
> Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:08:39 -0500 from Harlan Messinger
> <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net>:

> > In French they use "terrible" to mean more or less what English speakers
> > today mean by "terrific".

Do they use it freely or only in fixed phrases like "homme terrible"?
I'm having trouble finding examples on French pages.

> Back in college, when I studied Attic Greek, I was interested to
> learn that the adverb deinos (omega, not omicron), meaning
> "terribly", was used as a quantifier just as we do in English:  "It
> was terribly hot yesterday."

They do it in Dutch as well.
"Vreselijk lekker" = terribly delicious.
"Erg goed" = awfully good.

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Ruud Harmsen - 24 Jan 2010 09:12 GMT
Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:46:23 +0100: trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux): in
sci.lang:

>They do it in Dutch as well.
>"Vreselijk lekker" = terribly delicious.
>"Erg goed" = awfully good.

For some time (but it may have gone out fashion again), in youth
language the Dutch word "wreed" (which to me can only mean "cruel")
also meant "cool" (same modern sense as in English).

Cf. geil in German. (In Dutch, it still only has the sexual meaning.)

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Ruud Harmsen - 24 Jan 2010 09:13 GMT
Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:46:23 +0100: trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux): in
sci.lang:

>> Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:08:39 -0500 from Harlan Messinger
>> <hmessinger.removethis@comcast.net>:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>"Vreselijk lekker" = terribly delicious.
>"Erg goed" = awfully good.

And even "walgelijk lekker" = disgustingly delicious (but used in
situations where no disgust is present at all).
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Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Peter Moylan - 24 Jan 2010 10:35 GMT
> Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:46:23 +0100: trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux): in
> sci.lang:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> Do they use it freely or only in fixed phrases like "homme terrible"?
>> I'm having trouble finding examples on French pages.

Fairly freely, although I have the impression that the most common use
is in a negative statement: "C'est pas terrible", meaning "it's not
terribly good". An interesting example of the word having the same
non-literal meaning in both French and English.

This is more in speech than in writing, so it might be easier to find it
in newsgroups than on web pages.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Joe Fineman - 23 Jan 2010 22:27 GMT
> Back in college, when I studied Attic Greek, I was interested to
> learn that the adverb deinos (omega, not omicron), meaning
> "terribly", was used as a quantifier just as we do in English:  "It
> was terribly hot yesterday."

Gowers, in MEU 2 s.v. terribly, mentions this fact, and quotes James
Thurber's concatenation of such silly but well-established
expressions:

 The other day (said I) I read a love scene in a story that went
 like this: "Am I beautiful?" she asked him.  "Terribly" he said.
 And then he asked her "Do you love me?"  "Horribly" she said.  Why
 (I was then asked) don't you go home and write something humorous?
 Don't you want to?  "Frightfully" I replied.

Cf. German "sehr".
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Robert Bannister - 24 Jan 2010 01:41 GMT
>> Back in college, when I studied Attic Greek, I was interested to
>> learn that the adverb deinos (omega, not omicron), meaning
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Cf. German "sehr".
Of course, but don't forget "furchtbar" and "schrecklich".

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Rob Bannister

Steve Hayes - 24 Jan 2010 18:57 GMT
>Back in college, when I studied Attic Greek, I was interested to
>learn that the adverb deinos (omega, not omicron), meaning
>"terribly", was used as a quantifier just as we do in English:  "It
>was terribly hot yesterday."

Back in college, when I was asked to translate (of Herodias and John the
Baptist) "eneichen" I said that she "had it in for him", which would have been
a nice pun if it had said "enechein".

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Default User - 21 Jan 2010 21:58 GMT
> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
> affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
> Gibbon
>
> Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

There's the old story that Queen Anne, upon viewing Christopher Wren's
work on St. Paul's cathedral, described it as "awful, artificial and
amusing." That supposedly meant something along the lines of, "awesome,
artful, and fascinating."

Brian

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Day 353 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project

Leslie Danks - 21 Jan 2010 23:00 GMT
>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> amusing." That supposedly meant something along the lines of, "awesome,
> artful, and fascinating."

Or "I'm bewitched, baffled and bewildered".

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Les (BrE)

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 03:56 GMT
><<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
>affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
>Gibbon
>
>Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

Similar to awesome, in its meaning of 40 years ago.

Thirty years ago awesome changed into being a synonym for merely cool.

Fifty years ago a roadhouse I patronised, called the "Doll House", offered an
"Awful Awful" on its menu (awful good, awful nice). The main ingredient was
ice cream, I believe.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

R H Draney - 22 Jan 2010 05:57 GMT
Steve Hayes filted:

>Fifty years ago a roadhouse I patronised, called the "Doll House", offered an
>"Awful Awful" on its menu (awful good, awful nice). The main ingredient was
>ice cream, I believe.

Somewhat more recently, an actress on a chat show described the crew on her
recent movie chumming to attract sharks...said the stuff they threw overboard
was "a pail of offal", which the closed-captioning people rendered as "a pail of
awful"....

Unlike similar CC mistakes, this one was actually appropriately evocative....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Steve Hayes - 22 Jan 2010 17:34 GMT
>Steve Hayes filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Unlike similar CC mistakes, this one was actually appropriately evocative....r

During one university vacation I worked as an audit clerk, and one of our
clients was Rand Cod Storage. We had to do a lot of checking of entries
relating to the "offal pool". That sounded awful.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Cheryl - 22 Jan 2010 17:58 GMT
>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>> Fifty years ago a roadhouse I patronised, called the "Doll House", offered an
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> clients was Rand Cod Storage. We had to do a lot of checking of entries
> relating to the "offal pool". That sounded awful.

Recently on a TV show I heard 'Oh-ful' where 'offal' was clearly
intended. I couldn't decide if the actor (or director, or both) didn't
know the difference, if they thought the audience didn't know the
difference, or if it was merely a regional pronunciation I hadn't come
across before.

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Cheryl

James Hogg - 22 Jan 2010 18:10 GMT
>>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>>> Fifty years ago a roadhouse I patronised, called the "Doll
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the difference, or if it was merely a regional pronunciation I hadn't
> come across before.

Offaly people, after they gained independence, didn't like the thought
of living in King's County.

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James

Jerry Friedman - 22 Jan 2010 18:11 GMT
> >> Steve Hayes filted:
> >>> Fifty years ago a roadhouse I patronised, called the "Doll House", offered an
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> difference, or if it was merely a regional pronunciation I hadn't come
> across before.

I've heard that pronunciation from Americans--in fact, I'm pretty sure
I've been told it's the right one--and I'm surprised it's not in M-W,
AHD, or dictionary.com unabridged (based on Random House).  It has the
merit of avoiding confusion between this rare word and that common
word, sort of like the two-syllable pronunciation of "buoy".

--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk - 24 Jan 2010 15:51 GMT
[offal, awful]
> I've heard that pronunciation from Americans--in fact, I'm pretty sure
> I've been told it's the right one--and I'm surprised it's not in M-W,
> AHD, or dictionary.com unabridged (based on Random House).  It has the
> merit of avoiding confusion between this rare word and that common
> word, sort of like the two-syllable pronunciation of "buoy".

I don't recall hearing that.  I have noticed that in the UK, "geyser"
and "geezer" are homophones.  I've even seen this howler in a mock
postcard promoting a swimming pool:

  I raced mum down the two big water slides, and I won!  Mum then
  relaxed in the lazy river while I took on the giant geezers that
  got me totally soaked.

I think some arrests need to be made.

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Harlan Messinger - 22 Jan 2010 12:03 GMT
>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "Awful Awful" on its menu (awful good, awful nice). The main ingredient was
> ice cream, I believe.

As opposed to Awful Offal, their ragout of organs, entrails, and hooves.
Prai Jei - 22 Jan 2010 18:21 GMT
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com set the following eddies spiralling through the
space-time continuum:

> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
> affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
> Gibbon
>
> Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

I've seen the spelling "aweful" in use to make it clear that the older
meaning is intended, not the modern one.
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ξ:) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Dan McGrath - 22 Jan 2010 19:37 GMT
>ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com set the following eddies spiralling through the
>space-time continuum:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I've seen the spelling "aweful" in use to make it clear that the older
>meaning is intended, not the modern one.

Do you think that "aweful" would have probably become the standard
spelling of "awful" in modern English if the meaning of the word
hadn't changed?  I've sometimes thought about this myself in the past.
It would explain the seemingly strange inconsistency between the
spellings of "awful" and "awesome": the meaning of the latter word did
not begin to shift until relatively recently.

- Dan
Signature

Daniel G. McGrath
Binghamton, New York
e-mail: dmcg6174[AT]gmail[DOT]com

Chuck Riggs - 23 Jan 2010 13:26 GMT
>>ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com set the following eddies spiralling through the
>>space-time continuum:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>spellings of "awful" and "awesome": the meaning of the latter word did
>not begin to shift until relatively recently.

There was no reason I can see for the spelling to change from awful to
aweful, to retain a meaning that is obsolete, today.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Harlan Messinger - 28 Jan 2010 20:40 GMT
> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with an
> affected secrecy, which served to excite their wonder and curiosity.>>
> Gibbon
>
> Did Gibbon mean "awsome"?

I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
upon one of the Peaceable Kingdom series of paintings by Edward Hicks
(1780-1849). It's surrounded by lines of verse from Isaiah 11, like "The
leopard with harmless kid laid down/And not one savage beast was seen to
frown". A guard was standing there reading it, and said to me, "I
thought I was misreading it for a moment. It seems funny that he would
say that the kid was harmless." I thought it seemed like a funny point
to make too, but then I thought for a moment and wondered whether
"harmless" ever meant "unharmed", so that the point would be the germane
one, that the kid lay down with the leopard unharmed.

I suggested this possibility to the guard, and also explained "awful"
and "terrific" while I was at it. :-)

I just checked the OED and, indeed, this is the earliest attested
meaning, with citations as recent as 1848 from Thackeray's "Vanity Fair".
James Silverton - 28 Jan 2010 21:07 GMT
>> <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
>> concealed from the eyes of strangers, and even of catechumens, with
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> meaning, with citations as recent as 1848 from Thackeray's "Vanity
> Fair".

That reminds me that one of the early uses of "silly" is "harmless" and
"silly sheep" doesn't necessarily mean the beasts are stupid.

Signature

Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

R H Draney - 28 Jan 2010 22:09 GMT
Harlan Messinger filted:

>I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
>upon one of the Peaceable Kingdom series of paintings by Edward Hicks
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I just checked the OED and, indeed, this is the earliest attested
>meaning, with citations as recent as 1848 from Thackeray's "Vanity Fair".

ObPossibleAppropriateAnagram:  "Harlan Messinger" -> "Harmless Earning"

....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Harlan Messinger - 29 Jan 2010 13:08 GMT
> Harlan Messinger filted:
>> I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> ObPossibleAppropriateAnagram:  "Harlan Messinger" -> "Harmless Earning"

Bravo!
PaulJK - 30 Jan 2010 07:00 GMT
>> Harlan Messinger filted:
>>> I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Bravo!

A minor permutation: "Harming Earn Less"
James Hogg - 30 Jan 2010 08:08 GMT
>>> Harlan Messinger filted:
>>>> I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> A minor permutation: "Harming Earn Less"

Harlan Messinger is a Smashing Learner

Signature

James

Leslie Danks - 28 Jan 2010 22:45 GMT
[...]

> I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came
> upon one of the Peaceable Kingdom series of paintings by Edward Hicks
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> meaning, with citations as recent as 1848 from Thackeray's "Vanity
> Fair".

"Harmless" is still used in this sense in so-called "hold harmless
agreements (or contractual clauses)". For example:

[quote]
Hold Harmless Agreement.

An agreement or contract in which one party agrees to hold the other free
from the responsibility for any liability or damage that might arise out
of the transaction involved.

For example, a company might agree in an employee's contract to pay the
judgment if the person is successfully sued for injuries sustained by a
plaintiff if the employee is acting within the scope of his or her
authority on company time.

In certain cases, particular parties may not, however, be exempted from
liability. For example, a provision exempting a common carrier from all
liability for loss would ordinarily be void, as against public policy.

Hold harmless agreements are ordinarily contained in leases and easements.
[endquote]

<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Hold+Harmless+Agreement>

Signature

Les (BrE)

benlizro@ihug.co.nz - 28 Jan 2010 23:03 GMT
On Jan 29, 9:40 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I just checked the OED and, indeed, this is the earliest attested
> meaning, with citations as recent as 1848 from Thackeray's "Vanity Fair".

Recently read in an American book published 1831: "He had been ill for
a fortnight, but was at no time thought dangerous...." Apparently this
sense (specifically "in danger of death from illness") was in use well
into the 19th century.

Ross Clark
Bob Martin - 29 Jan 2010 07:07 GMT
>Recently read in an American book published 1831: "He had been ill for
>a fortnight, but was at no time thought dangerous...." Apparently this
>sense (specifically "in danger of death from illness") was in use well
>into the 19th century.

So Americans used to say "fortnight"?
sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 29 Jan 2010 09:02 GMT
> in 302468 20100128 230328 "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> So Americans used to say "fortnight"?

We still do, it's just less common here.  My mom uses it occasionally.

Google books turns of plenty of uses by American authors.  For
instance, historian Evan Thomas used it in 3 different books published
since 2001.
Frank ess - 29 Jan 2010 18:20 GMT
>> in 302468 20100128 230328 "benli...@ihug.co.nz"
>> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> instance, historian Evan Thomas used it in 3 different books
> published since 2001.

In the early 1950s when I was about twelve and looking for a job to
replace my previous money-earing scheme (raising and selling corn and
tomatoes and rabbits and chickens and chicken eggs - getting up at
"oh-dark-thirty" every freaking day had begun to wear after a few
years) I signed on as a subscription-seller for a new fortnightly news
magazine called "Fortnight". It was designed to compete with "Time"
and "Newsweek", but lasted just a few years. I still wonder if it
might have survived with another name, but can't imagine an
appropriate title.

I did sell quite a number of subscriptions in that door-to-door era.

Signature

Frank ess

Peter T. Daniels - 29 Jan 2010 03:02 GMT
On Jan 28, 3:40 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > <<The awful mysteries of the Christian faith and worship were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I was in the American Folk Art Museum in Manhattan just now and came

I tried sending you an email (using "reply to sender"), expecting
"mailer-daemon" to tell me you didn't exist because there's no way to
remove the "removet..." using that google link, but I never got a
rejection.
 
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