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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010A fortnight come Michaelmas
A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 days "before" or "after" St. Michael? I find it twice in a literary piece dated 1937 (should this ever help :-). Also, once: a fortnight come Lammas eve. Any advice, especially if documented, gratefully accepted. Thanks Giovanni > A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 > days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks > Giovanni I expect that there will be differing opinions from various sources but in Yorkshire this would mean a fortnight AFTER Michaelmas. Although there is some ambiguity of meaning due to the shortness of the quote. >> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >> days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Although there is some ambiguity of meaning due to the shortness of >the quote. Indeed; it needs a bit more context. "When are you getting married?" "A fortnight come Michaelmas" - two weeks after Michaelmas. "How long has she been ill?" "A fortnight come Tuesday" - by the coming Tuesday she will have been ill for a fortnight. "How old are you, my pretty fair maid? How old are you, my honey? She answered me right cheerfully, I'm seventeen come Sunday." (Sorry, Laura!) Sunday is her seventeenth birthday. Katy ke10@cam.ac.uk in <hjfu2k$8nu$1@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>: [...] >"How old are you, my pretty fair maid? How old are you, my honey? >She answered me right cheerfully, I'm seventeen come Sunday." > >(Sorry, Laura!) > >Sunday is her seventeenth birthday. More precise: _Next_ Sunday is her 17th birthday. I point to this because I see some confusion in the thread for the more general examples like "A fortnight come Michaelmas" between the interpretations "A fortnight before/after Michaelmas" and the IMHO correct "On Michaelmas (which is to come in a few days) a fortnight will have passed since the event happened.". Ciao, Paul > ke10@cam.ac.uk in <hjfu2k$8nu$1@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "On Michaelmas (which is to come in a few days) a fortnight will have > passed since the event happened.". That is exactly how, IMO, all the "come xxx" expressions work (bar the one in the original quote, which I think we've established is for musical rather than literal effect). You mentally put yourself at the point in time described, and at that point, the situation will be as stated. That works for all three of the examples.  SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> ke10@cam.ac.uk in <hjfu2k$8nu$1@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk>: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > That works for all three of the examples. I agree, up to a point. The expression certainly means that we should mentally place ourselves at Michaelmas, and then count a fortnight from there. That's the non-controversial part. The controversial part is about whether we should count forwards or backwards from that point. "Come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years old": unambiguous. "A fortnight come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years old": ambiguous. I interpret that as meaning that the speaker's birthday will be 14 days after Michaelmas. Others, I gather, will interpret it as meaning that the birthday will be 14 days before Michaelmas. For the latter interpretation, I would have expected "Come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years and two weeks old." SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan in <C4Cdnf8IcfjrAsDWnZ2dnUVZ8sadnZ2d@westnet.com.au>: >I agree, up to a point. You are welcome, Peter and Nick! >The expression certainly means that we should >mentally place ourselves at Michaelmas, and then count a fortnight from >there. That's the non-controversial part. > >The controversial part is about whether we should count forwards or >backwards from that point. Really? >"Come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years old": unambiguous. ACK. Here both items are in the future. >"A fortnight come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years old": ambiguous. > >I >interpret that as meaning that the speaker's birthday will be 14 days >after Michaelmas. Both the phrase and the interpretations seem impossible for me. While Michaelmas must be in the future and closer to today than the time mentioned before, "fortnight" and the corresponding event mentioned at the end must be in the past (1) unless the English language allows to omit a word from a phrase like "A fortnight from come Michaelmas, I will be 16 years old" (1) Please note that my point of view is heavily influenced by MUSEN (i.e. my humble language feeling) which knows a similar construction in German. >Others, I gather, will interpret it as meaning that >the birthday will be 14 days before Michaelmas. > >For the latter interpretation, I would have expected "Come Michaelmas, I > will be 16 years and two weeks old." I'm afraid that would be a contradiction in itself, stating "I'll be 16" and meaning 16 years + 2 weeks. Ciao, Paul On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: >> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >> days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Although there is some ambiguity of meaning due to the shortness of > the quote. Some more text, literally: "The night the candles about Lady Whosit's coffin set fire to the great hall. That was twenty years ago a fortnight come Michaelmas." Yes, Lady Whosit, in the original. The other quote is even less helpful. The author is being witty about quaint British mores, as perceived by an American. I suspect the time factor here is not that important: nobody probably cares if the date was Sep. 15 or Oct. 13. The focus is more on words than on their meaning. But I still hope to find a reason for my choice of translation, if possible at all. A grammar rule? Another piece with known meaning? Worried thanks Giovanni > On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Worried thanks > Giovanni Hi Giovanni. And as I and Kate suggest it is used differently by various dialectic users. I suggest that you translate the term into more unambiguous Modern English . > > On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I suggest that you translate the term into more unambiguous Modern > English Isn't it "when X comes" in all dialects? -- Jerry Friedman > On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: >>> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > reason for my choice of translation, if possible at all. A grammar > rule? Another piece with known meaning? Worried thanks Giovanni Have you consulted the OED? I can't find any equivalent to the construction "a fortnight come Michaelmas". What I do find is a construction where the interval and the point in time are reversed: "Mighelmas come a yere" (1568) Under "come" v. 36 b there is this definition: "Also with an interval of time (week, month, year, etc.) following and qualifying a date, as in 'Thursday come fortnight', where the literary language now has 'Thursday fortnight', but the full phrase is retained dialectally." I think the construction that is worrying you probably means the same thing. SignatureJames > > On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: > >>> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Have you consulted the OED? I can't find any equivalent to the > construction "a fortnight come Michaelmas". That's odd. The NSOED has "T. COLLINS He was married, three years ago come Boxing Day." > What I do find is a > construction where the interval and the point in time are reversed: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > language now has 'Thursday fortnight', but the full phrase is retained > dialectally." ... A warning, Giovanni: Don't try this in America. "Fortnight" is rare and mostly jocular here, and we don't have the "Thursday week" construction. We'd say "Two weeks from Thursday." -- Jerry Friedman >>> "Redshade" ha scritto: >>>>> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression >>>>> pointing to? 14 days "before" or "after" St. Michael? I find it [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > and mostly jocular here, and we don't have the "Thursday week" > construction. We'd say "Two weeks from Thursday." Waht? No furlongs per fortnight? SignatureSkitt (AmE) > On Jan 23, 10:11 pm, "Giovanni" <invalido@tin> wrote: >>> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Worried thanks > Giovanni It is perfectly clear: when Michaelmas comes, then the fire will have occurred exactly 20 years ago. Come tomorrow, you will understand this, I'm sure. SignatureRob Bannister >A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks > Giovanni Well, without the full context it's difficult to say. However, the expression "...come Michaelmas" is usally a response to the question "how long is it since [whatever] ?", in which case if the answer were "a fortnight come Michaelmas", then the "whatever" happened on 15 September. It is more usually years rather than weeks - "three years ago come Christmas". Lammas eve is of course 31 July. Regards Jonathan > A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 > days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Any advice, especially if documented, gratefully accepted. You've gotten answers, but I take this "come" to be a fossil subjunctive. The NSOED says, "With following future date (/colloq./) or period of time (/dial./): when that date comes, when that period has elapsed." For an explicitly future example, there's a Jimmy Buffet song. "Come Monday, it'll be all right. Come Monday, I'll be holding you tight." There's a fixed phrase "come the revolution". As a good American, I can't give you a Communist example :-) so here's an old joke: Come the revolution, we'll all eat strawberries and cream. But I don't like strawberries and cream. Come the revolution, you /will/ like strawberries and cream! -- Jerry Friedman >> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >> days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Come the revolution, you /will/ like strawberries and cream! I hear it more as an adjective/past participle. "Come Monday,..." = "when Monday has/is come,...", or "Monday having come,...". SignatureJohn > On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:05:55 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >You've gotten answers, but I take this "come" to be a fossil > >subjunctive. ... > I hear it more as an adjective/past participle. "Come Monday,..." = > "when Monday has/is come,...", or "Monday having come,...". Or that, which also works well with the "Monday come" examples James posted. -- Jerry Friedman >A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >days "before" or "after" St. Michael? First, thanks to everyone who assisted in my predicament. I seem to understand, from the lively discussion, that the phrase "That was twenty years ago a fortnight come Michaelmas" has as one acceptable meaning: go to your calendar, find Michaelmas, >add 14 days<, go back 20 years, i.e. "That happened on the 13th of October, twenty years ago". From that I will build some nice footnote explanation. Anybody who strongly disagrees, let them speak now, or else for ever hold their peace :-) Thanks again. It was a nice experience. Giovanni > >A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 > >days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Anybody who strongly disagrees, let them speak now, or else for ever hold > their peace :-) How long do we get? I see you posted twelve hours ago. Given the "Whosit," I think you were closer to right when you said "The author is being witty about quaint British mores, as perceived by an American." I think it is just jumbled nonsense that sounds sort of British, and you would look foolish to try to take it literally. Your proposed footnote starts "Go to your calendar, find Michaelmas..." I don't think that's quite it, either. (a) People who talked like that would know when Michaelmas was, they wouldn't be sending anyone to a calendar, and (b) Michaelmas would almost certainly be coming soon. You use this "come" with a date that is "coming," not with any old date that might have passed some months months ago. "He'll be eight years old come Easter" suggests that Easter is no more than three months away, possibly four. The really weak point is sticking "a fortnight" between "ago" and "come." Did anyone say they find that reasonable? I didn't notice it. Since Americans *never* say "fortnight" the speaker could easily put it in an impossible spot. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands >>> A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >>> days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Since Americans *never* say "fortnight" the speaker could easily put it > in an impossible spot. Donna, when you're right, you are just spot on. Somehow, thinking what a lovely and normal phrase "20 years ago come Michaelmas" is, as is "a fortnight come Michaelmas", I think a lot of us missed that fact that the phrase as whole is over the top to the point of being meaningless. SignatureRob Bannister >A fortnight come Michaelmas - what day is that expression pointing to? 14 >days "before" or "after" St. Michael? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Any advice, especially if documented, gratefully accepted. No documentation, but I would take it to mean after. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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