He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French
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Marius Hancu - 25 Jan 2010 01:48 GMT 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French."
Is it ambiguous?
I.e. does it mean, beside:
"He is bilingual and speaks English and French equally well."
that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a comma after "English" in 1.
-- Thanks. Marius Hancu
Peter Moylan - 25 Jan 2010 02:18 GMT > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a > comma after "English" in 1. It is indeed ambiguous. My first reading came up with the meaning "... in addition to French.", but your first interpretation is equally valid.
In any case, the first four words are redundant. It's almost as if the sentence were saying "He is bilingual. Not only that, he speaks two languages."
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Chuck Riggs - 25 Jan 2010 14:27 GMT >> 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >sentence were saying "He is bilingual. Not only that, he speaks two >languages." I see the redundancy, but not any ambiguity in the sentence.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Robert Bannister - 26 Jan 2010 00:05 GMT >>> 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I see the redundancy, but not any ambiguity in the sentence. I only see a real ambiguity if the sentence is written in a language other than English. In other words: the setting is Germany; a character is known to speak German and French; someone comments on how good his French is and the answer is: "He is bilingual", plus the added information that he also speaks English.
I have an idea that Americans do not use "as well" to mean "also" to the same extent that BrE speakers do. So, even though there's no ambiguity under normal circumstances, we are all geared up to expect "as well" to mean "also", and I'm pretty sure we would all avoid the above without any conscious effort, changing it to "speaks... equally well" or "his x is as good as his y".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes - 26 Jan 2010 03:32 GMT >>>> 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >any conscious effort, changing it to "speaks... equally well" or "his x >is as good as his y". I regard "as well" and "as well as" as two different phrases; though there may be a lot of overlap in meaning they can't be used in the same way, with the same syntax.
In the original sentence
"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French."
I take "as well as" to indicate that French is the default (ie native) language. In that sentence, "as well as" means "in addition to".
If I wanted to use "as well" (without the following "as") I would recast the sentence thus:
"He is bilingual; he speaks French, and English as well".
In that example, "as well" could be replaced by "too".
I don't know about other countries, but in South Africa "as well" is a generation marker. People under 35 (like my children) say "AS well", people over 35 (like me) say "as WELL".
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes - 25 Jan 2010 02:50 GMT >1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a >comma after "English" in 1. It means that French is his native language, and he speaks English well.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ray O'Hara - 25 Jan 2010 03:09 GMT >>1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It means that French is his native language, and he speaks English well. The funniest joke in the movie Next Friday revolves around the word bilingual.
Mark Brader - 25 Jan 2010 04:31 GMT Marius Hancu:
> 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > > Is it ambiguous? Yes.
> I.e. does it mean, beside: > "He is bilingual and speaks English and French equally well." That's how I first took it. Particularly because in Canada "bilingual" often refers implicitly to English and French rather than meaning just any two languages.
> that he speaks English and also French? But now that you mention it, that reading is also possible. Of course, in speech the inflection would distinguish the two.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto "I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pedantic and msb@vex.net that's just as good." -- D Gary Grady
My text in this article is in the public domain.
R H Draney - 25 Jan 2010 07:12 GMT Mark Brader filted:
>Marius Hancu: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >often refers implicitly to English and French rather than meaning just >any two languages. That's a step beyond "Pondial"...where I live, "bilingual" means "English and Spanish"...a mere hundred miles to the northeast, it means "English and Navajo" (and another hundred miles farther, it probably means "Navajo and Hopi")....r
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Cheryl - 25 Jan 2010 11:50 GMT > Mark Brader filted: >> Marius Hancu: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Spanish"...a mere hundred miles to the northeast, it means "English and Navajo" > (and another hundred miles farther, it probably means "Navajo and Hopi")....r There's an old joke about the Canadian federal politician who went to Cape Breton to do a bit of campaigning. He insisted that the local party people provide him with a bilingual driver - they found him one who was bilingual in Gaelic and English.
Yes, in Canada the default assumption is that the languages in question are French and English - and, actually, not that they are both native to the person in question, but merely that the person is completely fluent in both. Well, aside from rude questions as to whether someone is 'English-bilingual' or 'French-bilingual', implying that he or she doesn't speak the unnamed language very well, whatever claims may be made about bilingual status.
In a situation in which the unstated assumption was that 'bilingual' means 'bilingual in English and French', I'd write "He is bilingual, and speaks English and French (or 'both languages') equally well. Otherwise, in a more multilingual setting, he could be bilingual in Russian and German, and also speak English and French equally well.
 Signature Cheryl
Peter Moylan - 25 Jan 2010 14:03 GMT > Mark Brader filted: >> Marius Hancu: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Spanish"...a mere hundred miles to the northeast, it means "English and Navajo" > (and another hundred miles farther, it probably means "Navajo and Hopi")....r That still puts you a step beyond us. In these parts "bilingual" could mean "English and Arabic", but it could equally well mean "Dinka and English". If you search for "Awabakal" - the native language of this region - you will discover that practically nobody speaks the language.
It wouldn't be too far from the truth to say that the only non-extinct Australian aboriginal languages are a handful of those spoken in the Northern Territory.
 Signature Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Robert Bannister - 26 Jan 2010 00:17 GMT >> Mark Brader filted: >>> Marius Hancu: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Australian aboriginal languages are a handful of those spoken in the > Northern Territory. Bit of an exaggeration. I hear Nyungar (or Noongar) and Yamatji spoken a fair bit in the southern half of our state, and I know I've heard Aborigines speaking their own language(s) in Adelaide. It is only to be expected that the greatest extinction of aboriginal culture (and people) would be in the areas first settled by white people.
 Signature Rob Bannister
chance - 25 Jan 2010 04:37 GMT > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a > comma after "English" in 1. When spoken, how is it possible to tell if there was a comma? Some may point to a pause after the place where a comma should have been placed. But then, how is it possible 'practically' to tell if there was a pause, or not? Again, what if the writer puts a comma indiscriminately before saying 'as well as'? Again, some might say context may decide. But what about if it was used in isolation? The 'as well as' issue may remain a perennial one, unless it is decided so that either way of interpretation is right, for in actuality, not much difference between the two is there, endagnering communication. So, how about taking the phrase as to mean simply 'and', and knowing the phrase is a fashinonable way of saying 'and'? I, for one, adopt personally that policy. There is no other way to break through the problem. Besides, most importantly, contrary to all possible outcries of objections notwithstanding, in the final analysis, the 'as well as' is an 'and'. Think about this instance: An American presidential candidate has won a landslide victory, sweeping all the states. Now, a reporter reports: He swept Alaska ...Wyoming as well as Texas, this one after enumerating the 47 other states. 'In addition to', 'Together with', 'And', and 'As well as' are all the same.
the Omrud - 25 Jan 2010 09:01 GMT > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a > comma after "English" in 1. If its intention is to indicate that he speaks both English and French as a native speaker, it fails.
I read it as:
- He is bilingual
he has two native languages, but we don't know which
- and speaks English as well as French
this has two possible meanings:
either:
- he speaks English and he speaks French equally well
but we don't know how well. Notwithstanding the "bilingual" comment above, there's nothing which tells us that the bi languages are English and French
or:
- he speaks English and he also speaks French
but there's no indication about how well he speaks either of these (separately. This meaning can be forced by adding a comma after "English", but it doesn't solve the question of how well he speaks these languages, nor of what languages are in the bi pair.
How about:
- He is bilingual in English and French.
 Signature David
Marius Hancu - 25 Jan 2010 09:40 GMT > > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - He is bilingual in English and French. Not a bad one to me.
Thank you all. Marius Hancu
chance - 25 Jan 2010 13:07 GMT >> > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Not a bad one to me. I'll second that.
> Thank you all. > Marius Hancu Prai Jei - 27 Jan 2010 20:06 GMT Marius Hancu set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
>> > 1-"He is bilingual and speaks English as well as French." >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Thank you all. > Marius Hancu D'accord, it's got that certain je ne sais quoi about it.
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Derek Turner - 25 Jan 2010 10:13 GMT > "He is bilingual and speaks English and French equally well." > > that he speaks English and also French? I think the latter requires a > comma after "English" in 1. 'he does' before French removes the ambiguity.
John - 26 Jan 2010 00:19 GMT I believe your sentence is repetitive.
You could say "He is bilingual because he can speak English and French fluently."
the Omrud - 26 Jan 2010 08:48 GMT > I believe your sentence is repetitive. > > You could say "He is bilingual because he can speak English and French > fluently." Just as a point of pedantry - "fluent" is nowhere near "bilingual".
 Signature David
James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 08:54 GMT >> I believe your sentence is repetitive. >> >> You could say "He is bilingual because he can speak English and French >> fluently." > > Just as a point of pedantry - "fluent" is nowhere near "bilingual". You would probably agree with this quotation from 1884 in the OED: "A genuine bilinguist is as rare a prodigy as a two-headed calf."
 Signature James
the Omrud - 26 Jan 2010 10:00 GMT >>> I believe your sentence is repetitive. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You would probably agree with this quotation from 1884 in the OED: > "A genuine bilinguist is as rare a prodigy as a two-headed calf." I don't think I do. 50 miles to the west of me there are at least thousands of bilingual Welsh/English speakers. 25 miles to the east of me there are tens of thousands (posibly far more) of English/Urdu, English/Gujarati English/Hindi speakers. I was at university with somebody who grew up in Hong Kong speaking Cantonese and English equally. Manchester has a significant Polish community from the 1940s, whose children, now in their 50s, were brought up bilingual.
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HVS - 26 Jan 2010 10:21 GMT On 26 Jan 2010, the Omrud wrote
>>>> I believe your sentence is repetitive. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Polish community from the 1940s, whose children, now in their > 50s, were brought up bilingual. I agree entirely that distinguishing between fluency and bilingualism neither dismisses the possibility of the latter, nor even implies that it's rare.
I can read French with little difficulty; can understand and speak it sufficiently well to carry on a conversation for a while; but my written French is extremely poor.
That clearly is far from any form of bilingualism, but in a conversational setting it edges towards fluency.
 Signature Cheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 10:30 GMT > On 26 Jan 2010, the Omrud wrote > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > That clearly is far from any form of bilingualism, but in a > conversational setting it edges towards fluency. I don't agree with the quotation either, but I thought it was an interesting example of a solid monolingualism that may be typically English.
 Signature James
the Omrud - 26 Jan 2010 22:39 GMT >> On 26 Jan 2010, the Omrud wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I don't agree with the quotation either, but I thought it was an > interesting example of a solid monolingualism that may be typically English. I don't believe I'm typical English (or typcial anything).
 Signature David
J. J. Lodder - 26 Jan 2010 10:32 GMT > > I believe your sentence is repetitive. > > > > You could say "He is bilingual because he can speak English and French > > fluently." > > Just as a point of pedantry - "fluent" is nowhere near "bilingual". You can of course claim that true bilinguals don't exist. And if you analyse enough you will no doubt find that one of the languages comes slightly more easyly than the other.
Too pedantic to my taste. I would say that someone is bilingual when he thinks in both languages, without ever mentally referring to the other one for understanding,
Jan
John - 26 Jan 2010 11:39 GMT If you were to define bilingualism as mentally referring to the other one for understanding, then the number of bilinguals in the world would be a lot lower. Assuming that's your definition of true bilingualism, then it'd most likely be a matter of language acquisition, especially for children who have been exposed to both languages in their daily lives.
J. J. Lodder - 27 Jan 2010 09:19 GMT > If you were to define bilingualism as mentally referring to the other > one for understanding, then the number of bilinguals in the world > would be a lot lower. Assuming that's your definition of true > bilingualism, then it'd most likely be a matter of language > acquisition, especially for children who have been exposed to both > languages in their daily lives. The acid test: understand a Frenchman as he rattles off his phone number, without needing extra time to think or translate,
Jan
Robert Bannister - 28 Jan 2010 01:52 GMT >> If you were to define bilingualism as mentally referring to the other >> one for understanding, then the number of bilinguals in the world [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jan Even among true bilinguals, doing any arithmetic more complicated than simple addition or subtraction usually forces people into one language or the other.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Chuck Riggs - 28 Jan 2010 11:51 GMT >>> If you were to define bilingualism as mentally referring to the other >>> one for understanding, then the number of bilinguals in the world [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >simple addition or subtraction usually forces people into one language >or the other. Back when I could carry on a simple conversation in German, I either thought in English or I thought in German, but never in both, if that is what you were alluding to.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Bob Martin - 26 Jan 2010 11:45 GMT >> > I believe your sentence is repetitive. >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that one of the languages comes slightly more easyly >than the other. A few years ago (about 40!) I travelled to Paris on the Golden Arrow. A young French woman with two small girls sat opposite me - she was seen off at Victoria by her English husband. I was fascinated by the mixture of English and French spoken by the girls. They switched from one to the other quite randomly, often more than once in a sentence and sometimes just for a single word.
J. J. Lodder - 27 Jan 2010 09:19 GMT > >> > I believe your sentence is repetitive. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > one to the other quite randomly, often more than once in a sentence > and sometimes just for a single word. Kiddies seem capable of it, adults can't afaik. Switching le language dans the middle d'une ligne can easily be understood, but ca prend more time. (even for 'bilinguals') As does switching pronunciation in mid-sentece,
Jan
R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 09:23 GMT J. J. Lodder filted:
>> A few years ago (about 40!) I travelled to Paris on the Golden Arrow. >> A young French woman with two small girls sat opposite me - she was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >(even for 'bilinguals') >As does switching pronunciation in mid-sentece, Spend some time in southwestern New Mexico...let me know how much time passes before you hear a single complete sentence from any of the locals that changes between English and Spanish fewer than five times....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
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