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"Stealing" and "Theft" of software/music/etc

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Berkeley Brett - 25 Jan 2010 09:25 GMT
In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
"burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
home but need not steal anything to be a burglar; whereas a thief must
steal something to be a thief.

This does raise a separate issue (relevant in the world of easy
digital file transfer) about the words "stealing" and "theft".

If someone steals my bicycle, they take my bicycle and, in so doing,
DEPRIVE me of my bicycle.

But if someone COPIES an MP3 song file from my computer without my
permission, they have TAKEN it BUT they have NOT DEPRIVED me of it.

Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?  Is *depriving* me of the song
file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

Your feedback is most welcome....

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.100bestwebsites.org/
"The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites
Lars Eighner - 25 Jan 2010 09:36 GMT
In our last episode,
<b724674f-8d8f-4e2b-8a2a-ed15e31e993d@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Berkeley Brett broadcast on alt.usage.english:

> But if someone COPIES an MP3 song file from my computer without my
> permission, they have TAKEN it BUT they have NOT DEPRIVED me of it.

> Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?

Yes.

> Is *depriving* me of the song file an essential element of stealing, or is
> merely copying it without my permission sufficient to use the word
> "stealing" or "theft"?

Of course the victim in the theft of music is the artist.

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 Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/>      Warbama's Afghaninam day: 54
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Stan Brown - 25 Jan 2010 14:49 GMT
Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:36:02 +0000 (UTC) from Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com>:

> In our last episode,
> <b724674f-8d8f-4e2b-8a2a-ed15e31e993d@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Of course the victim in the theft of music is the artist.

People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of the
file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but they *have*
deprived them of the revenue they are entitled to.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Jan 2010 17:04 GMT
> Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:36:02 +0000 (UTC) from Lars Eighner
> <usenet@larseighner.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but they *have*
> deprived them of the revenue they are entitled to.

But, interestingly, do so without affecting the revenue they would
have gotten had the violator refrained from copying.  Or even imposing
any cost on them.  It really is a strange form of theft, when you
think about it.  No legal sale is in any way made more difficult or
costly[1], and no revenue is going to the wrong party, either through
sale or use.  You really have to go out on a metaphorical limb, in my
opinion, to call unauthorized copying "theft".

[1] Ignoring self-imposed costs specifically to make this sort of
   action more difficult.

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John Varela - 26 Jan 2010 21:25 GMT
> > Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:36:02 +0000 (UTC) from Lars Eighner
> > <usenet@larseighner.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> [1] Ignoring self-imposed costs specifically to make this sort of
>     action more difficult.

You could make the same argument about sneaking into the ball park
or the opera, or sneaking a ride on a train, or any other theft that
doesn't involve the removal of a physical object or a transfer of
money.

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John Varela
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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 26 Jan 2010 22:52 GMT
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:04:30 UTC, Evan Kirshenbaum
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> doesn't involve the removal of a physical object or a transfer of
> money.

I don't think many people would call any of those things "theft"--
trespass or stowing away seem more likely.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 00:20 GMT
>> > People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of
>> > the file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> doesn't involve the removal of a physical object or a transfer of
> money.

Yes, certainly.  Or "theft" such as watching a baseball game from your
appartment overlooking the ballpark or watching a fireworks show (for
which admission is charged) from outside the stadium.  

Interestingly, the examples you give all involve physically entering
someone else's property without paying the expected admission.  So it
could probably be argued that by entering the property (with the
posted admission fee) you implicitly agree to pay the fee and that not
doing so is like allowing someone to perform a service for you and
then leaving without paying.  In that case, you actually *have* taken
something that was rightfully theirs.

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Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 14:57 GMT
>>> > People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of
>>> > the file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>appartment overlooking the ballpark or watching a fireworks show (for
>which admission is charged) from outside the stadium.  

That might well be stealing, but it is not theft, as I understand the
word, since theft involves physical contact with the goods.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

John Varela - 27 Jan 2010 18:37 GMT
> >>> > People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of
> >>> > the file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> That might well be stealing, but it is not theft, as I understand the
> word, since theft involves physical contact with the goods.

I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction to
worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV. (This making of fine
distinctions reminds me of some of the discussions here about the
differences between jelly, jam, and preserves. I can't be bothered
to worry about that. What I really wonder about is the difference
between soup and chowder.)

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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2010 19:22 GMT
> What I really wonder about is the difference between soup
> and chowder.

Having grown up in Maine, I'd say that chowder refers to a thick soup
made with a milk or cream based broth (clam, fish and corn chowders
being the most common, but other seafoods are pretty well-established
too).  Apparently that's a local idiosyncrasy, though--people from
elsewhere apply the term to something entirely different.  Growing up,
I wouldn't have called something like Manhattan clam chowder a chowder
if you'd asked me to name it.
John Varela - 27 Jan 2010 22:56 GMT
X-troll: yes

> > What I really wonder about is the difference between soup
> > and chowder.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I wouldn't have called something like Manhattan clam chowder a chowder
> if you'd asked me to name it.

It's clear that "Manhattan clam chowder" is not a chowder. No one
could disagree with that. What about corn chowder?

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Chuck Riggs - 28 Jan 2010 11:58 GMT
>X-troll: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>It's clear that "Manhattan clam chowder" is not a chowder. No one
>could disagree with that. What about corn chowder?

New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Wood Avens - 28 Jan 2010 12:13 GMT
>>X-troll: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
>is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.

IANAE, but I think you've got it the wrong way round.  

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Sara Lorimer - 28 Jan 2010 17:07 GMT
> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
> is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.

Other way around. And you, a former Down Easter!

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SML

R H Draney - 28 Jan 2010 19:06 GMT
Sara Lorimer filted:

>> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
>> is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
>
>Other way around. And you, a former Down Easter!

And it's so easy to remember...Manhattan clam chowder, like the Manhattan
cocktail, has red stuff in it....r

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Chuck Riggs - 29 Jan 2010 11:41 GMT
>> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
>> is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
>
>Other way around. And you, a former Down Easter!

Whichever, I like the milky kind.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Sara Lorimer - 30 Jan 2010 01:49 GMT
> >> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
> >> is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
> >
> >Other way around. And you, a former Down Easter!
>
> Whichever, I like the milky kind.

Of course! I've never even tried the pink kind, as I already know it is
Wrong.

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SML

Skitt - 30 Jan 2010 02:06 GMT
>>>> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam
>>>> Chowder is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Of course! I've never even tried the pink kind, as I already know it
> is Wrong.

I've tried it, and it is was a terrible disappointment.  Yecch.  Never
again.
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Skitt (AmE)

Chuck Riggs - 30 Jan 2010 11:25 GMT
>> >> New England Clam Chowder is the pink stuff and Manhattan Clam Chowder
>> >> is the milky stuff, IINM. I much prefer the latter.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Of course! I've never even tried the pink kind, as I already know it is
>Wrong.

Yes, it is Dead Wrong, Sara. (On top of that, it doesn't taste as
good.)
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

tsuidf - 01 Feb 2010 22:30 GMT
> > Whichever, I like the milky kind.
>
> Of course! I've never even tried the pink kind, as I already know it is
> Wrong.

Now, now, now, let's follow Ivar's advice and keep clam.

(and me allergic to the stuff)

cheers,
Stephanie
who did grow up in New England and also knows this sort of thing
HVS - 01 Feb 2010 22:38 GMT
On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote

> On Jan 30, 2:49 am, SL...@DELETEcolumbia.edu (Sara Lorimer)
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Now, now, now, let's follow Ivar's advice and keep clam.

ObAUE.  I'm fairly certain that my grandmother -- born in 1900 in
Ontario, of Irish extraction somewhere back sometime -- used to rhyme
"calm" with "pam".  I'm not at all sure of the distribution of that
pronunciation.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

James Hogg - 01 Feb 2010 23:01 GMT
> On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "calm" with "pam".  I'm not at all sure of the distribution of that
> pronunciation.

Psalm and Sam are pronounced the same all over Ireland.

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James

HVS - 01 Feb 2010 23:04 GMT
On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote

>> On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Psalm and Sam are pronounced the same all over Ireland.

Is that also the case for "calm" and "palm"?

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

James Hogg - 01 Feb 2010 23:14 GMT
> On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Is that also the case for "calm" and "palm"?

Yes. And "aunt" and "ant" are homonyms.

That's why Stephen Dedalus talked about Uncle Charles and Dante.

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James

HVS - 02 Feb 2010 08:39 GMT
On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote
>> On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote

>>>> ObAUE.  I'm fairly certain that my grandmother -- born in
>>>> 1900 in Ontario, of Irish extraction somewhere back sometime
>>>> -- >>>> used to rhyme "calm" with "pam".  I'm not at all sure
>>>> of the distribution of that pronunciation.

>>> Psalm and Sam are pronounced the same all over Ireland.
>>
>> Is that also the case for "calm" and "palm"?
>
> Yes. And "aunt" and "ant" are homonyms.

The two cases, though, don't always follow.

"Aunt" and "ant" are [1] homonyms for me, too -- as are "cot" and
"caught" -- but I've never rhymed "calm", "palm", or "psalm" with
"pam".

[1] Or used to be;  I suspect I waver a bit on them these days.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Cheryl - 02 Feb 2010 10:50 GMT
> On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote
>>> On 01 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> [1] Or used to be;  I suspect I waver a bit on them these days.

I pronounce "aunt" and "ant" the same way, but not the a is "psalm",
"Sam", "calm" and "Pam". I've heard that pronunciation fairly often, and
am trying to pin down where and from whom. Perhaps there is an Irish
connection - I've spent a good chunk of my life in a part of
Newfoundland in which most of the population has Irish ancestry and the
accent sometimes shows that. Well, almost invariably shows that, except
for the younger generation who tend to speak more Standard Canadian. My
own accent was always a bit different because I grew up with different
speech influences and anyway have no Irish ancestry at all.

Some people also pronounce the 'l' in 'calm'. I can't do the phonetic
alphabetic, but it sounds almost lik cahlm, and I say something more
like cawm, with a much shorter a in Pam.

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Cheryl

James Silverton - 02 Feb 2010 00:40 GMT
HVS  wrote  on Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:04:14 GMT:

>>> On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Psalm and Sam are pronounced the same all over Ireland.

> Is that also the case for "calm" and "palm"?

I can't speak for Ireland but I remember listening to the Garrison
Keeler which  uses Mid-Western pronunciation. I think I remember his
rhyming "psalm", "palm" and "calm" with "corm". I use a non-rhotic sound
for all of these like in "harm".

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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

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Pat Durkin - 01 Feb 2010 23:09 GMT
> On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> "calm" with "pam".  I'm not at all sure of the distribution of that
> pronunciation.

Calm, palm, pam, almond??
R H Draney - 02 Feb 2010 06:30 GMT
Pat Durkin filted:

>> ObAUE.  I'm fairly certain that my grandmother -- born in 1900 in
>> Ontario, of Irish extraction somewhere back sometime -- used to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>Calm, palm, pam, almond??

But salmon?...r

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Stan Brown - 28 Jan 2010 12:32 GMT
Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:22:06 -0800 (PST) from sjdevnull@yahoo.com
<sjdevnull@yahoo.com>:

> > What I really wonder about is the difference between soup
> > and chowder.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I wouldn't have called something like Manhattan clam chowder a chowder
> if you'd asked me to name it.

I didn't know corn qualified as a seafood. :-)

But seriously, I can't come up with a definition that includes corn
chowder and excludes vichyssoise.  (Temperature doesn't do it,
because
http://www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/rest_mgmt/gloss.shtm
l#v
says it can be served hot or cold.)

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Peter Moylan - 28 Jan 2010 09:07 GMT
> I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction to
> worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV. (This making of fine
> distinctions reminds me of some of the discussions here about the
> differences between jelly, jam, and preserves. I can't be bothered
> to worry about that. What I really wonder about is the difference
> between soup and chowder.)

Chowder requires fish, IMHO.

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James Hogg - 28 Jan 2010 09:10 GMT
>> I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction to
>>  worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV. (This making of fine
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
> Chowder requires fish, IMHO.

And it should be washed down with chowder beer, "a liquor made by
boiling the black spruce in water and mixing molasses with the
decoction" (Webster 1828).

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James

Chuck Riggs - 28 Jan 2010 11:55 GMT
>> >>> > People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of
>> >>> > the file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction to
>worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV.

I agree with you, but picking nits is de rigueur in AUE.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

HVS - 28 Jan 2010 12:15 GMT
On 27 Jan 2010, John Varela wrote

>>> Yes, certainly.  Or "theft" such as watching a baseball game
>>> from your appartment overlooking the ballpark or watching a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction
> to worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV.

[Waves hand] MMVs.

It strikes me as a useful distinction that those of us who a fond
of precision ought to care about, and I think we lose something
when such distinctions are ignored in ordinary conversation.

I'm not a believer in slippery-slope stuff -- calling "stealing"
"theft", or using "robbery" instead of "burglary" doesn't mean
you'll start referring to the "murder" of insects -- but there are
many examples  where terms with specific meanings have been
devalued by misapplication.  I think we're worse off when that
happens.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Lars Eighner - 28 Jan 2010 14:35 GMT
> On 27 Jan 2010, John Varela wrote

>>>> Yes, certainly.  Or "theft" such as watching a baseball game
>>>> from your appartment overlooking the ballpark or watching a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> I'll concede that point, but consider it too fine a distinction
>> to worry about in ordinary conversation. YMMV.

> [Waves hand] MMVs.

> It strikes me as a useful distinction that those of us who a fond
> of precision ought to care about, and I think we lose something
> when such distinctions are ignored in ordinary conversation.

> I'm not a believer in slippery-slope stuff -- calling "stealing"
> "theft", or using "robbery" instead of "burglary" doesn't mean
> you'll start referring to the "murder" of insects -- but there are
> many examples  where terms with specific meanings have been
> devalued by misapplication.  I think we're worse off when that
> happens.

Tell me the difference:

1) Someone steals a mechanic's tools, by which he provides for his family,
for a loss equivalent to two month's rent, utilities, and groceries.

2) Someone ( Hi! Neil Plakcy http://www1.broward.edu/~nplakcy/ ) steals a
writer's essay for a loss equivalent to two month's rent, utilities, and
groceries.

Piracy is not called piracy for nothing.

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           1381.2 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II.
    Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century.  No hope.  No change.

HVS - 28 Jan 2010 16:10 GMT
On 28 Jan 2010, Lars Eighner wrote

> In our last episode,
> <Xns9D0E7CB00123Ewhhvans@news.albasani.net>, the lovely and
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> steals a writer's essay for a loss equivalent to two month's
> rent, utilities, and groceries.

Two things can be equally wrong -- which those are -- and deserve
similar penalties -- which those do -- without being "the same
thing".

A better analogy for the theft of the mechanic's tools would be the
theft of the writer's computer:  until the tools are replaced,
neither victim can produce any more "product".

In other words, the difference to me is that the mechanic, when
deprived of his tools, cannot re-sell or produce any further
"product" (the repair of machinery) until the tools are replaced;
the writer can.

Having different words fo similar-but-slightly-different things
strikes me as a useful aspect of English usage, and "theft", to me,
is a specific *type* of "stealing".

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Lars Eighner - 28 Jan 2010 16:32 GMT
> On 28 Jan 2010, Lars Eighner wrote

>> Tell me the difference:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> steals a writer's essay for a loss equivalent to two month's
>> rent, utilities, and groceries.

> Two things can be equally wrong -- which those are -- and deserve
> similar penalties -- which those do -- without being "the same
> thing".

> A better analogy for the theft of the mechanic's tools would be the
> theft of the writer's computer:  until the tools are replaced,
> neither victim can produce any more "product".

> In other words, the difference to me is that the mechanic, when
> deprived of his tools, cannot re-sell or produce any further
> "product" (the repair of machinery) until the tools are replaced;
> the writer can.

In the real world, of course, it is exactly the opposite.  The mechanic can
get a loan to replace the tools and begin making money right away.  The
writer is not going to get a loan or a grant*, and the publishing cycle being
what it is, could not expect to replace the income from the stolen property
in less than a year, if ever.

> Having different words fo similar-but-slightly-different things
> strikes me as a useful aspect of English usage, and "theft", to me,
> is a specific *type* of "stealing".

* How often have grants actually produced profitable works?

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HVS - 28 Jan 2010 16:54 GMT
On 28 Jan 2010, Lars Eighner wrote

> In our last episode,
> <Xns9D0EA47584840whhvans@news.albasani.net>, the lovely and
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> In the real world, of course, it is exactly the opposite.

For sake of argument, I'll work from that premise.

If the situation is "exactly the opposite" of what I say, it means
that the copying is "theft", while taking the mechanics tools is --
because of the consequences -- a slightly different type of
"stealing".

In other words, the two things remain different acts, rather than
the same thing.

-snip-

So I repeat:

>> Having different words for similar-but-slightly-different things
>> strikes me as a useful aspect of English usage, and "theft", to
>> me, is a specific *type* of "stealing".

I find it remarkable that a writer would consider that a
contentious statement.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jan 2010 16:12 GMT
> Tell me the difference:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> steals a writer's essay for a loss equivalent to two month's rent,
> utilities, and groceries.

I don't understand how you intend the loss to be derived.  Do you mean
that after the theft, the writer is unable to sell the essay to people
who would have voluntarily paid him for it had the theft not occurred?
Or do you mean that people voluntarily pay the thief rather than him?
Or do you mean that because the thief presents the essay as his own,
the owner loses the ability to increase his status (and, thereby,
earning power) based on it?

None of these would appear to apply to the vast majority of cases of
copying.

> Piracy is not called piracy for nothing.

Of course not.  It's called "piracy" in order to make people who don't
think about it to closely assume that someone is being seriously
harmed.  And to conflate the notions of people copying things for
their own use with people making a living by selling unlicensed copies
of things they don't own without involving the copyright owner.

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Stan Brown - 28 Jan 2010 12:27 GMT
27 Jan 2010 18:37:14 GMT from John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>:
> What I really wonder about is the difference
> between soup and chowder.

As Byron "Whizzer" White famously said, I can't define it, but I know
it when I see it.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

James Silverton - 28 Jan 2010 13:56 GMT
Stan  wrote  on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 07:27:51 -0500:

> 27 Jan 2010 18:37:14 GMT from John Varela <OLDlamps@verizon.net>:
>> What I really wonder about is the difference
>> between soup and chowder.

> As Byron "Whizzer" White famously said, I can't define it, but
> I know it when I see it.

I guess he predates Justice Potter Stewart's(1964) saying about
obscenity or pornography, “I shall not today attempt to further define
the kinds of material I understand to be embraced….but I know it when I
see it….”

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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

tony cooper - 27 Jan 2010 19:58 GMT
>>>> > People who say they have not "deprived" the authors or artists of
>>>> > the file are missing the point.  Of course they have not, but
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>That might well be stealing, but it is not theft, as I understand the
>word, since theft involves physical contact with the goods.

Not when its "theft of services".  

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jan 2010 16:17 GMT
>>That might well be stealing, but it is not theft, as I understand
>>the word, since theft involves physical contact with the goods.
>
> Not when its "theft of services".  

I think of theft of services as the same as going through the cash
register at a store and then walking out (with the merchandise)
without paying.  It's not really the merchandise you're stealing, but
rather the money you agreed to pay for it.

A and B come to an agreement that if A will perform a task, B will pay
him a hundred dollars.  When A performs the task, that hundred dollars
becomes rightfully his, even though it's still sitting in B's pocket.
If B refures to pay by the agreed-upon deadline, he's essentially
stolen A's money.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |primary or secondary schools in the
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tony cooper - 28 Jan 2010 19:46 GMT
>>>That might well be stealing, but it is not theft, as I understand
>>>the word, since theft involves physical contact with the goods.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>without paying.  It's not really the merchandise you're stealing, but
>rather the money you agreed to pay for it.

Leaving a restaurant without paying or bunking out without paying your
hotel/motel bill are "theft of services" in some jurisdictions.  In
the case of the restaurant, you are stealing the merchandise if you
leave with the food in your belly.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

John Holmes - 29 Jan 2010 23:16 GMT
>> Not when its "theft of services".
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> If B refures to pay by the agreed-upon deadline, he's essentially
> stolen A's money.

Not quite, as I understand it. A did not have the money, so B did not
steal it from him. What has happened is that B has failed to fulfil his
obligation under a contract to pay A the money. The money does not
belong to A until the contract is completed.

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Stan Brown - 27 Jan 2010 03:14 GMT
Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:04:30 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
> But, interestingly, do so without affecting the revenue they would
> have gotten had the violator refrained from copying.  Or even imposing
> any cost on them.  It really is a strange form of theft, when you
> think about it.

Strange?  Why?  It's taking something that doesn't belong to one.  
Seems to me that "theft" is the mot juste.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 04:10 GMT
> Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:04:30 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Strange?  Why?  It's taking something that doesn't belong to one.
> Seems to me that "theft" is the mot juste.

Then it's a strange sort of "taking" that doesn't remove anything or
make it any more difficult for the rightful owner to use.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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Stan Brown - 28 Jan 2010 12:24 GMT
Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:10:29 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:

> > Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:04:30 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
> > <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Then it's a strange sort of "taking" that doesn't remove anything or
> make it any more difficult for the rightful owner to use.

It *does* remove something: the owner's right to enjoy income derived
from the item.

That point has been made before; did you miss something?

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jan 2010 15:52 GMT
> Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:10:29 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> It *does* remove something: the owner's right to enjoy income
> derived from the item.

Of course it doesn't.  On the one hand, the owner still retains the
copyright and so has all the rights he used to have.  On the other
hand, the owner never had the "right to enjoy income derived from the
object".  If nobody felt that it was worth paying for it, there would
be no income.  I own copyright in this post.  I don't expect to
actually derive any income from it.

> That point has been made before; did you miss something?

If someone has made the point that the owner loses copyright by having
somebody copy something, then I did miss it and I don't agree with
it.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2010 10:44 GMT
> Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:04:30 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Strange?  Why?  It's taking something that doesn't belong to one.  

I find the final quoted sentence to be equivocal and confusing--I'd
much rather state plainly that it's copying something that one doesn't
have a right to copy.  The equivocal meanings of the word "take" are
muddying the waters here.

Theft means taking someone else's property (without their consent)
with intent to deprive them of their possession.

Some senses of "take" imply deprivation on the other end--see, for
instance, Webster's "6 : to transfer into one's own keeping: a :
appropriate", where both "transfer" and "appropriate" might be read to
imply that the original possessor no longer has possession.  But those
senses of take are not the same way in which one is "taking" an mp3
when copying it.

More clearly, if you have a book of sheet music there's a huge
difference between someone grabbing it and running away with it and
someone photocopying it and taking the copies home.  The former is
theft; the latter is illegal copying.  In the case of theft, not only
has the copyright owner lost a potential sale (or at least unwillingly
had someone gain usage of proprietary intellectual property), but also
the lawful possessor of the property has been deprived of it.

Copyright infringement is certainly illegal, but it's a separate issue
from theft and conflating the two does nothing to help matters.
Adam Funk - 25 Jan 2010 23:03 GMT
> In our last episode,
><b724674f-8d8f-4e2b-8a2a-ed15e31e993d@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Yes.

Copyright infringement is not theft.  It is a different matter
entirely.

>> Is *depriving* me of the song file an essential element of stealing, or is
>> merely copying it without my permission sufficient to use the word
>> "stealing" or "theft"?
>
> Of course the victim in the theft of music is the artist.

Copyright is not a natural right, but a privilege that the state
grants in order to promote the long-term public good by increasing the
amount of good material that will end up in the public domain.  It is
a trade-off between the public's natural right to copy (which
copyright restricts) and state-granted benefits to artists (who are
encouraged to produce more work than they might have done otherwise).

The world without copyright gave us Beowulf, the Sagas, and
Shakespeare's and Bach's works.  Copyright is clearly not *necessary*,
for human achievement, but it might be beneficial if reduced to its
original status (something like a 14-year term, renewable once only by
a living author).

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The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.                                     [Robert R. Coveyou]

Jeffrey Turner - 26 Jan 2010 04:38 GMT
> In our last episode,
> <b724674f-8d8f-4e2b-8a2a-ed15e31e993d@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Of course the victim in the theft of music is the artist.

Strange how artists who say, "Pay what you wish" make more money off
their songs than those with a set price.  I doubt the artist really
suffers from the "theft" you describe.

--Jeff

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Is man one of God's blunders or
is God one of man's?
--Friedrich Nietzsche

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 07:18 GMT
Jeffrey Turner skrev:

> Strange how artists who say, "Pay what you wish" make more money off
> their songs than those with a set price.  I doubt the artist really
> suffers from the "theft" you describe.

It is also part of the story that some artists put out their
music for free and get worldwide fame very fast.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Paul Wolff - 25 Jan 2010 09:45 GMT
>In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>"burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
>home but need not steal anything to be a burglar; whereas a thief must
>steal something to be a thief.

[...]

>Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?  Is *depriving* me of the song
>file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
>my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

I don't much like it, but then I didn't much like the way the professor
of genetics currently speaking on the radio used the word 'alibi' three
times just now to mean 'excuse', as in criminals using their genes as an
alibi for their wrongdoing.

You can construct an argument that references to stealing and to theft
are shorthand ways to signal that a person's exclusive right has been
voided. This right is a valuable property of an intangible kind, and to
ignore it is to steal it. Indeed, there are some who speak of a patent
being "awarded" to an inventor, as if it were a prize or an honour,
though it would be more realistic to say it has simply been granted or
issued upon the request of the person who applied for it, or to their
nominee (assignee).

Making an image of a digital file from someone else's copy without
permission is much the same as stealing a photograph of someone. We do
use the word 'steal' in that sense with no difficulty. If they consider
themselves a celebrity with commercial rights to their image, they may
well regard it as theft. That kind of personality right isn't common
round the world, though.
Signature

Paul

Peter Moylan - 25 Jan 2010 14:08 GMT
>> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> times just now to mean 'excuse', as in criminals using their genes as an
> alibi for their wrongdoing.

They claimed, I presume, that their genes were elsewhere at the time of
the crime.

Signature

Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

James Hogg - 25 Jan 2010 14:13 GMT
>>> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>>> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> They claimed, I presume, that their genes were elsewhere at the time of
> the crime.

Is "elsehelix" a word?

Signature

James

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 10:37 GMT
> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
> my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

That's industry-speak to make it sound like a more heinous crime.
Copyright violation is what it is, yes, copyright violation.

No need to muddle terms,

Jan
Berkeley Brett - 25 Jan 2010 10:53 GMT
> That's industry-speak to make it sound like a more heinous crime.
> Copyright violation is what it is, yes, copyright violation.
>
> No need to muddle terms,
>
> Jan

I'm inclined to agree with you, Jan.

But I do find the other opinions interesting.

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.100bestwebsites.org/
"The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 25 Jan 2010 11:38 GMT
>> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>No need to muddle terms,

In UK law copyright violation becomes a criminal act if it is done in
the course of business:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880048_en_5

   107 Criminal liability for making or dealing with infringing
       articles, &c
   
   (1) A person commits an offence who, without the licence of the
       copyright owner—    
     (a) makes for sale or hire, or    
     (b) imports into the United Kingdom otherwise than for his private
         and domestic use, or    
     (c) possesses in the course of a business with a view to
         committing any act infringing the copyright, or    
     (d) in the course of a business —
         (i) sells or lets for hire, or
         (ii) offers or exposes for sale or hire, or
         (iii) exhibits in public, or
         (iv) distributes, or    
     (e) distributes otherwise than in the course of a business to
         such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the
         copyright,    
     an article which is, and which he knows or has reason to believe
     is, an infringing copy of a copyright work.

   (2) A person commits an offence who—    
     (a) makes an article specifically designed or adapted for making
         copies of a particular copyright work, or    
     (b) has such an article in his possession,    
     knowing or having reason to believe that it is to be used to make
     infringing copies for sale or hire or for use in the course of a
     business.
   
     etc.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 12:01 GMT
> >> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
> >> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>    
>       etc.

Which says nowhere that it's theft,
it's copyright imfringement that is the offence,

Jan
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 25 Jan 2010 15:20 GMT
>> >> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>> >> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>Which says nowhere that it's theft,
>it's copyright imfringement that is the offence,

I agree it is not classified in law as theft because the criminal
offence is not define in one of the Theft Acts.

But this type of "piracy" does involve people improperly acquiring
things that they should have paid for.

If you are concerned about this non-technical use of the word "theft"
you would have been even more annoyed when last year (I thing it was) a
senior executive of a US TV broadcaster accused viewers of stealing TV
programs. His point was that where TV broadcasting is supported by
advertising there is a need for viewers to buy the advertised products.
If the viewers do not respond to ads by purchasing the advertised
products they are getting the TV programs completely free. This will
result in a loss of advertising and the collapse of the TV company.

His company broadcasts TV programs in exchange for money from viewers
via advertisers. If viewers stop paying via the advertisers they will be
getting TV shows free, at least until the company goes out of business

It is not stealing in the normal sense, but I can understand his
frustration.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 21:37 GMT
> >> >> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
> >> >> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> It is not stealing in the normal sense, but I can understand his
> frustration.

One can be even more ridiculous about that.
In some other American case
(against intelligent commercials skipping video recorders iirc)
the RIAA lawyer claimed: Whoever watches a commercial TV program
enters into a contract with the TV company.
The commercials are an inherent part of that contract.
Getting up during a commercial break is breach of contract,
hence theft.
The judge inquired if getting away
for certain physiological needs could be allowed.
The lawyer replied that permission for one or two absences
could be granted.

Jan
Adam Funk - 25 Jan 2010 23:08 GMT
> If you are concerned about this non-technical use of the word "theft"
> you would have been even more annoyed when last year (I thing it was) a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> It is not stealing in the normal sense, but I can understand his
> frustration.

AIUI, it was Jack Valenti (president of the MPAA) who said that
fast-forwarding through commericials was stealing.  As Clarence Darrow
said, "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with
great pleasure."

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Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of
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J. J. Lodder - 26 Jan 2010 10:32 GMT
> > If you are concerned about this non-technical use of the word "theft"
> > you would have been even more annoyed when last year (I thing it was) a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> said, "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with
> great pleasure."

Quite possible. And no doubt others have said similar things.
I have the story only third hand.

Anyway, this kind of greedy usage dillutes 'theft'
to something everybody does all the time,
and hence to something unobjectionable,
that few can see the wrong of.

It is not a clever move,

Jan
Eric Walker - 25 Jan 2010 11:16 GMT
> In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
> "burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
> my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

The swain who steals a kiss from his lass has not deprived her of
anything.  The trader who steals a march on his competitors has not
deprived them of anything.  The second banana who steals the show has not
deprived anyone of anything.  And so on and so forth.

For the curious, as of 1984 (the most recent copy I have), the Penal Code
of the State of California defines theft in salient part so:

 Every person who shall feloniously steal, take, carry, lead, or drive
 away the personal property of another, or who shall fraudulently
 appropriate property which has been entrusted to him, or who shall
 knowingly and designedly, by any false or fraudulent representation or
 pretense, defraud any other person of money, labor or real or personal
 property, or who causes or procures others to report falsely of his
 wealth or mercantile character and by thus imposing upon any person,
 obtains credit and thereby fraudulently gets or obtains possession of
 money, or property or obtains the labor or service of another, is
 guilty of theft. . . .

There is a great deal more, but it all builds on that poorly punctuated
block.

That provision is in the large chapter headed "Larceny", which also notes
that any reference to larceny, embezzlement, or stealing is to be taken
as referring to "theft".

Later in that same chapter, there are provisions relating to computer
crimes.  Those are too lengthy to quote, but the key points are fraud or
extortion to obtain money, property, or services; getting or tampering
with others' credit information; and altering, damaging, or deleting
programs or data.  But it does expressly note that "property" includes
data and programs.

So, in sum, it looks as if to the law (and I assume most states' laws in
these matters more or less parallel California's) taking an unauthorized
copy of a program or of data is included in the crime of theft.

As a sidebar, someone who took an unauthorized copy of a piece of music
from your computer is stealing, but not so much from you as from the
entity that owns the distribution rights to that music.  But I suspect
that is a matter for civil, not criminal, law.

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Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Mike Barnes - 25 Jan 2010 11:50 GMT
Berkeley Brett <royaloui@gmail.com>:
>If someone steals my bicycle, they take my bicycle and, in so doing,
>DEPRIVE me of my bicycle.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
>my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

It's the rights-holder that is deprived rather than you. And I'm happy
with the word "theft" as shorthand in such circumstances.

Where it all gets messy is the amount of the loss. The loss of your
bicycle is fairly easy to evaluate. But that copy of an MP3 file is
often valued at whatever amount the rights-holder would have asked for
it had they been given the opportunity (and if they were willing to sell
it to you at all). This is not an actual loss.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 13:26 GMT
> Berkeley Brett <royaloui@gmail.com>:
> >If someone steals my bicycle, they take my bicycle and, in so doing,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> It's the rights-holder that is deprived rather than you. And I'm happy
> with the word "theft" as shorthand in such circumstances.

I'm unhappy with changing the meaning of words
to suit financial interests.

> Where it all gets messy is the amount of the loss. The loss of your
> bicycle is fairly easy to evaluate. But that copy of an MP3 file is
> often valued at whatever amount the rights-holder would have asked for
> it had they been given the opportunity (and if they were willing to sell
> it to you at all). This is not an actual loss.

The amounts may well be extortionate.
IIRC the final bill came to several hundred thousand dollar
for briefly sharing 40 songs or so,
in a well published American P2P case.

Even more reason though for not calling this 'theft':
the victim wasn't stealing, (a she iirc) was sharing.
Her shared files may never have been downloaded by anybody,
except by those who trapped her,

Jan
Lars Eighner - 25 Jan 2010 16:38 GMT
>> Berkeley Brett <royaloui@gmail.com>:

>> >Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?  Is *depriving* me of the song
>> >file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
>> >my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?
>>
>> It's the rights-holder that is deprived rather than you. And I'm happy
>> with the word "theft" as shorthand in such circumstances.

> I'm unhappy with changing the meaning of words
> to suit financial interests.

I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves takes over
completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the bread that copyright has put on
my table, but more for for having lived in a time when creative people could
still expect to be rewarded for their efforts.

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Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 16:58 GMT
Lars Eighner skrev:

> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves takes over
> completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the bread that copyright has put on
> my table, but more for for having lived in a time when creative people could
> still expect to be rewarded for their efforts.

Has music ever sold as well as it does today?

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Bertel, Denmark

Pablo - 25 Jan 2010 18:18 GMT
El Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:58:10 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:

> Lars Eighner skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Has music ever sold as well as it does today?

If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more music?

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Pablo

Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 19:07 GMT
Pablo skrev:

> > Has music ever sold as well as it does today?

> If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more music?

There would be considerably less music. Musicians/composers would
have to choose between a glorious, painful death and finding
another job and only work a fraction of the time with music or
not at all.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Mike Barnes - 25 Jan 2010 19:44 GMT
Bertel Lund Hansen <splitteminebramsejl@lundhansen.dk>:
>Pablo skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>There would be considerably less music.

I assume you mean new music. The scenario is so unlikely that further
definition is required, but I suspect there would probably be more old
music, and therefore more music overall.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 21:59 GMT
Mike Barnes skrev:

> I assume you mean new music. The scenario is so unlikely that further
> definition is required, but I suspect there would probably be more old
> music, and therefore more music overall.

As I wrote: the musicians would have to work ordinary jobs. They
wouldn't have time to play as much.

The abstract existence of music can of course only expand -
unless some is forgotten. That happens. "Green Sleeves" for
example was only rediscovered by accidence.

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Bertel, Denmark

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 19:39 GMT
> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>> Lars Eighner skrev:

>>> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves takes over
>>> completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the bread that copyright
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more music?

In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

James Silverton - 25 Jan 2010 19:56 GMT
Skitt  wrote  on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:39:07 -0800:

>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>> Lars Eighner skrev:

>>>> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves
>>>> takes over completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more
>> music?

>In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.

Haven't we old fogies always said that?

Signature

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Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 20:21 GMT
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:

>>>>> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves
>>>>> takes over completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Haven't we old fogies always said that?

Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last few decades.
There are a few, written by the likes of David Foster, and such.  Most of
the recent songs seem to consist of very basic repetitive tonal patterns and
are more about the words, not music.  Rapping is not music.  There are a few
in the music awards shows that are a little better, but none of them will
last in popularity past six months or so, I think.  None of them will
achieve a "standards" rating, I'm sure.  It is not easy creating a memorable
piece of music, but the airwaves are filled with the rhythmic but tonally
deficient efforts of the untalented.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

James Silverton - 25 Jan 2010 20:33 GMT
Skitt  wrote  on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:21:25 -0800:

>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:

>>>>>> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves
>>>>>> takes over completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Haven't we old fogies always said that?

>Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last few
>decades. There are a few, written by the likes of David Foster, and
>such.  Most of the recent songs seem to consist of very basic
>repetitive tonal patterns and are more about the words, not music.
>Rapping is not music.

I must admit that I seldom listen to anything but "classical" music tho'
I do remember popular music from my youth and have CDs of Anna Russel,
Flanders and Swann and Jacques Brel. I like folk songs and Jazz but,
again, my taste would be described as ancient even in Jazz where my
preferences are "traditional".

Judging by what I sometimes hear when I am stopped at a light, it sounds
like a large part of Rap is repetition of obscenities.

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

franzi - 25 Jan 2010 20:39 GMT
On Jan 25, 8:33 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>  Skitt  wrote  on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:21:25 -0800:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Judging by what I sometimes hear when I am stopped at a light, it sounds
> like a large part of Rap is repetition of obscenities.

But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?
--
franzi
James Silverton - 25 Jan 2010 20:43 GMT
franzi  wrote  on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:39:30 -0800 (PST):

> On Jan 25, 8:33 pm, "James Silverton"
> <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>
>But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?

>The "rhythm"  sounds like it pertains to procreation to me.

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Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 11:11 GMT
> But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?

I eventually figured out why I disliked rap so much more than rock music
- oddly, for someone of my age, my knowledge and love of rock music is
extremely limited. To begin with, it has to pre-date the Beatles.

Anyway, I know you need rhythm in music, but I invariably focus on and
prefer melody. Rap (or what little bit of it I've been unable to avoid
hearing) lacks melody and therefore has no appeal for me at all.

The fact that it's usually played at volumes that are physically painful
for me is merely an additional reason; one that applies to other kinds
of music as well.

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Cheryl

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 11:48 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> Anyway, I know you need rhythm in music,

There's music that has no rhythm.

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Bertel, Denmark

Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 12:47 GMT
> Cheryl skrev:
>
>> Anyway, I know you need rhythm in music,
>
> There's music that has no rhythm.

Really? Not merely irregular rhythm, but none? What kind?

Signature

Cheryl

James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 13:11 GMT
>> Cheryl skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Really? Not merely irregular rhythm, but none? What kind?

John Cage's 4′33″ hasn't got much of a rhythm...

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James

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 26 Jan 2010 13:25 GMT
>>> Cheryl skrev:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>John Cage's 4?33? hasn't got much of a rhythm...

It is also somewhat lacking in melody.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 15:03 GMT
>>>> Cheryl skrev:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>It is also somewhat lacking in melody.

When one of his works doesn't lack melody, the melody is a lousy one,
IMO, which is why I find Cage so unenjoyable. He must be "ahead of his
time". Or perhaps I'm behind the times.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

tsuidf - 01 Feb 2010 22:39 GMT
On Jan 26, 2:25 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >>> Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> It is also somewhat lacking in melody.

And to revert to our original topic, isn't it being copied really
often, albeit perhaps completely without intent to do so?
HVS - 01 Feb 2010 22:49 GMT
On 01 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote

> On Jan 26, 2:25 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> And to revert to our original topic, isn't it being copied
> really often, albeit perhaps completely without intent to do so?

Maybe where you are;  around here, nobody shuts up for over four
minutes at a stretch...

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Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 13:32 GMT
>>> Cheryl skrev:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, I know you need rhythm in music,

>>> There's music that has no rhythm.
>>>
>> Really? Not merely irregular rhythm, but none? What kind?
>
> John Cage's 4′33″ hasn't got much of a rhythm...

I know, and I even know people far more expert in music than I consider
it to be music.

I still think, on the basis of very little musical knowledge, I admit,
that most music has rhythm.

All generalizations are dangerous - possibly including this one.

Signature

Cheryl

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 13:46 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> I still think, on the basis of very little musical knowledge, I admit,
> that most music has rhythm.

The only definition I have found to work is: Music is organized
noise.

Today we (in the western world) are mainly exposed to 'simple'
music. Experiments that break the pattern, do not have many
chances. Therefore you hear (almost) only rhythmic music, and the
rhythm patterns are 'easy' (2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 beats to the bar).

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 14:05 GMT
> Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> chances. Therefore you hear (almost) only rhythmic music, and the
> rhythm patterns are 'easy' (2, 3, 4, 6 or 8 beats to the bar).

I might take issue with 'simple'. I suppose it depends on both your
genes and your training, but I find some 'easy' rhythms remarkably
difficult - and if someone says 'clap on the off beat', it works if I
pick someone who seems to know what he's doing, and clap when he does.

Perhaps that has something to do with my strong preference for nice
tunes. 'Nice' meaning 'I like it', of course!

Signature

Cheryl

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 22:27 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> I might take issue with 'simple'.

You certainly might, and that is why I put it in quotation marks.
Seemingly simple music may actually be very difficult to perform.
But my point is that the broad audience is fed with a limited
selection of what music can be - and it is shoved down our
throats in places where there ought to be silence.

> I suppose it depends on both your
> genes and your training, but I find some 'easy' rhythms remarkably
> difficult - and if someone says 'clap on the off beat', it works if I
> pick someone who seems to know what he's doing, and clap when he does.

I have played instruments all my life, so I have no difficulty
with rhythms. But many people who are used to playing, would have
trouble following uneven rhythms.

> Perhaps that has something to do with my strong preference for nice
> tunes. 'Nice' meaning 'I like it', of course!

Of course. I also like what (I think) you call nice music. Only I
also love complex and unusual music - though not all of it by
far.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 15:09 GMT
>Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>also love complex and unusual music - though not all of it by
>far.

Complex and unusual can also be nice. In any case, I vote for nice.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 15:05 GMT
>Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>The only definition I have found to work is: Music is organized
>noise.

True, but so is most of the noise we hear. One way to escape the
problem is to listen to nothing but white noise.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Nick - 29 Jan 2010 08:23 GMT
>>> Cheryl skrev:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> John Cage's 4′33″ hasn't got much of a rhythm...

I don't view that as a piece of music.  I'm happy to consider it a work
of (performance?) art, but not a piece of music.
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R H Draney - 29 Jan 2010 09:01 GMT
Nick filted:

>>>> Cheryl skrev:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I don't view that as a piece of music.  I'm happy to consider it a work
>of (performance?) art, but not a piece of music.

How do you classify Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music"?...r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Adam Funk - 29 Jan 2010 12:59 GMT
> Nick filted:

>>> John Cage's 4′33″ hasn't got much of a rhythm...
>>
>>I don't view that as a piece of music.  I'm happy to consider it a work
>>of (performance?) art, but not a piece of music.

ITYM "prank" rather than performance art.

> How do you classify Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music"?...r

Two points out of three.

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Mike Lyle - 01 Feb 2010 16:09 GMT
>> Nick filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ITYM "prank" rather than performance art.

You know I think it's actually quite serious in an amusing way. People
now have little experience of silence, and still less of the difference
between one silence and another. I think of it as similar to our
townscapes' loss of darkness. Iraqi classical music explicitly depends
on silence as part of the experience, and I'd guess the same applies to
some other musics, too.

"But se silence makes a CRESCENDO! For se second bar of silence is se
only moment in se whole piece vere efery instrument hes se MUTE OFF!"
(Allegro ma quasi pensato" is in there somewhere, too.)

Signature

Mike.

musika - 01 Feb 2010 16:13 GMT
>>> Nick filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> only moment in se whole piece vere efery instrument hes se MUTE OFF!"
> (Allegro ma quasi pensato" is in there somewhere, too.)

And one of the bars of silence is in  3/4, giving it a quasi Viennese
flavour.

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Ray
UK

R H Draney - 01 Feb 2010 17:23 GMT
musika filted:

>>>> Nick filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>And one of the bars of silence is in  3/4, giving it a quasi Viennese
>flavour.

With ketchup?...r

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Adam Funk - 01 Feb 2010 19:17 GMT
[John Cage's 4'33]

>> ITYM "prank" rather than performance art.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> on silence as part of the experience, and I'd guess the same applies to
> some other musics, too.

Coming back to copyright:

   ...in 2002 a group known as The Planets ...  topped the UK
   classical charts with an album called Classical Graffiti, which
   included a track called A One Minute Silence. The track, which is
   silent, is credited to Batt/Cage, which Mike Batt admitted was
   intended as a "tongue-in-cheek dig at the John Cage piece",
   although he later claimed that the credits referred to his
   previously unknown pseudonymous alter ego, Clint Cage.

   This didn't escape the notice of Peters Edition who, acting on
   behalf of the Cage Estate, contacted Batt and claimed infringement
   of copyright. Peters Edition asked for a quarter of the royalties,
   presumably on the grounds that the duration of A One Minute
   Silence approximates to a quarter of four minutes and 33 seconds
   of silence.

http://tuxdeluxe.org/node/88

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R H Draney - 01 Feb 2010 21:12 GMT
Adam Funk filted:

>    ...in 2002 a group known as The Planets ...  topped the UK
>    classical charts with an album called Classical Graffiti, which
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>    Silence approximates to a quarter of four minutes and 33 seconds
>    of silence.

Long before "One Minute Silence", a shorter (six seconds) excerpt of Cage's work
appeared on John Lennon's "Mind Games" album with the title "Nutopian
International Anthem")....r

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Nick - 31 Jan 2010 10:19 GMT
> Nick filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> How do you classify Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music"?...r

I'm afraid I don't know it, and have borrowed the wire that connects
this computer to an amplifier, so can't easily research it at the moment.
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Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 13:36 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> Really? Not merely irregular rhythm, but none? What kind?

I have mostly heard it in connection with jazz/fusion-concerts
where some numbers start with a long prelude with no rhythm and
every musician improvising. But we also have a Danish composer
that was very advanced in her time (she started around 1952) but
only recently has been recognized. The appearance of synthesizers
has helped people understand her music. One might call it sound
paintings.

YouTube has some examples. Her name is Else Marie Pade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCX0or43lv0

Here's an example from another artist. Go to time point 3:20 to
hear a little bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_15ZQL82P4M&feature=related

This one sounds more 'normal' (Bobby Mcferrin). The beginning has
no rhythm, but it becomes rhythmic later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iimMKWF7SK0

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 14:00 GMT
> Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> YouTube has some examples. Her name is Else Marie Pade
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCX0or43lv0

There is that 'bong bong bong' near the beginning. And then the ways the
voices move back and forth. It's almost more like a soundscape, although
obviously far more planned, than music. Or should I say 'traditional
music', although that includes almost everything else.

> Here's an example from another artist. Go to time point 3:20 to
> hear a little bit:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_15ZQL82P4M&feature=related

This just gave a discussion on computer music, although a composer plays
something  - it seems to have some kind of rhythm, just not a really
regular one.

> This one sounds more 'normal' (Bobby Mcferrin). The beginning has
> no rhythm, but it becomes rhythmic later:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iimMKWF7SK0

Maybe we're using 'rhythm' differently. The beginning doesn't have a
steady rhythm, but it has as much as speech does.

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Cheryl

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 22:32 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> This just gave a discussion on computer music, although a composer plays
> something  - it seems to have some kind of rhythm, just not a really
> regular one.

It does.

> Maybe we're using 'rhythm' differently. The beginning doesn't have a
> steady rhythm, but it has as much as speech does.

By "rhythtm" in this context I meant a steady, uniform beat. No
proper music of any kind can ignore time. The length of the notes
and not least of the pauses is important. In this sense all music
has rhythm. But unless the rhythm is steady, one cannot follow it
when drumming with the foot or hand. So we might talk about two
different kinds of rhythm, but I think one usually only thinks of
the steady kind when using the word.

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Bertel, Denmark

R H Draney - 27 Jan 2010 00:20 GMT
Bertel Lund Hansen filted:

>Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>different kinds of rhythm, but I think one usually only thinks of
>the steady kind when using the word.

So the version of Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" recorded by Marvin Hamlisch
for the movie "The Sting" isn't music?...

(Since the question of rhythmless music first popped up in this thread, I've
been wondering about whalesong...or does the music of non-humans not count?)...r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 08:11 GMT
R H Draney skrev:

> So the version of Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" recorded by Marvin Hamlisch
> for the movie "The Sting" isn't music?...

Have you just entered the thread? I have consistently claimed
that rap is music, and this subthread was started by me with the
statement that there is music without rhythm.

> (Since the question of rhythmless music first popped up in this thread, I've
> been wondering about whalesong...or does the music of non-humans not count?)

Whales do not make music. A human being may record their sounds
and publish as a piece of music.

There is a Danish artist who buys broken pavement stones from the
commune for the price of a new one. He then frames them and sells
them.

Another artist who is a painter, makes pictures by rolling
marbles on a canvas with color.

The critical thing is that the first artist passes thousands and
thousands of uninteresting broken stones until he finds one that
is special. And the second artist thows away hundreds and
hundreds of canvases that did not work out.

Selection is crucial.

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Bertel, Denmark

Cheryl - 27 Jan 2010 10:40 GMT
> Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> different kinds of rhythm, but I think one usually only thinks of
> the steady kind when using the word.

Fair enough. I think I was thinking more generally.

My mother told me I'd regret not keeping up with my piano lessons when I
was grown up! I'd know a bit more about music if I had.

Signature

Cheryl

Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 12:04 GMT
Cheryl skrev:

> My mother told me I'd regret not keeping up with my piano lessons when I
> was grown up! I'd know a bit more about music if I had.

You would. I was sort of forced to play the piano as a child. I
didn't really want to. Later I picked up (!) playing guitar, and
that has given me great pleasure. Recently I have started
dabbling on a keyboard.

My grandson is a natural drummer. He beats rhythm automatically.
When we eat, we have to tell him to stop drumming on the table.
Once when he visited me, he took a book case and a table and used
them as drums. He had brought his sticks.

Now five years old he is steady enough to perform on stage (and
actually was before that), but his parents (and I) are in no
hurry. I am looking forward to seeing and hearing him play in a
band some time in the future.

His father is a percussionist, so he has the genes from both
sides.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 14:01 GMT
> Cheryl skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> YouTube has some examples. Her name is Else Marie Pade
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCX0or43lv0

That reminded me of the little I have heard of Ligeti (in Kubrick's 2001).

The Wiki article about him says:
"Out of the four elements of music — melody, harmony, rhythm and timbre
— the piece almost completely abandons the first three, concentrating on
the texture of the sound."

Signature

James

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 26 Jan 2010 21:26 GMT
> > But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> prefer melody. Rap (or what little bit of it I've been unable to avoid
> hearing) lacks melody and therefore has no appeal for me at all.

I'm confused by the ongoing notion in this thread that rap lacks
melody--unless my understanding of the term is flawed (entirely
possible), rap has melody.

Just picking a few massive hits from throughout rap history, the tunes
of Rapper's Delight (Sugarhill Gang, 1979), It's Tricky (Run DMC,
1986),  Gin and Juice (Snoop Doggy Dogg, 1993), Without Me (Eminem,
2003), or Golddigger (Kanye West, 2005) would be instantly
recognizable to me as pure instrumentals, based on both the rhythm and
what I would call the melody (basically, the patterned progression of
notes of particular pitches and durations).
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 01:01 GMT
> Just picking a few massive hits from throughout rap history, the
> tunes of Rapper's Delight (Sugarhill Gang, 1979), It's Tricky (Run
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and what I would call the melody (basically, the patterned
> progression of notes of particular pitches and durations).

I'm not familiar with those.  Could you point me to the sheet music
(standard notation or tab)?  

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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2010 02:14 GMT
> "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Just picking a few massive hits from throughout rap history, the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I'm not familiar with those.  Could you point me to the sheet music
> (standard notation or tab)?  

I don't have them, and as far as I know all of the above are still
under copyright.  Just tossing "Gold Digger sheet music" into Google
turns up midi and music notation here:
http://www.hamienet.com/midi24851.html#sheetmusic_container

You should be able to do similar searches for the others.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 04:25 GMT
>> "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > Just picking a few massive hits from throughout rap history, the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> turns up midi and music notation here:
> http://www.hamienet.com/midi24851.html#sheetmusic_container

There seems to be something wrong with that page.  As far as I can
tell, the midi files only have the backing tracks.  There doesn't seem
to be one for the melodic line that West "sings".

I'll agree that many rap songs have the singer speaking over things
that are musical.  Not infrequently, because they are sampled from
actual songs.  In this case, a reworking of Ray Charles's "I Got a
Woman".

> You should be able to do similar searches for the others.

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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2010 06:44 GMT
> "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> tell, the midi files only have the backing tracks.  There doesn't seem
> to be one for the melodic line that West "sings".

You're right.

I don't have time to try to google for sheet music, but you can go
here to hear the version of the song done by the chorus from the TV
show Glee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgZ7e-FDeac
Just to take one example, you can start at the 27 second mark and hear

I ain't saying she's a gold digger, but she ain't messing with no
broke, broke
Get down girl, go 'head get down (repeated 3 times)

There's an obvious melody here that's the same (within tolerances for
song interpretation) as what Kanye uses here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzY

(Start around the 27 second mark as well).

e.g. the downward tonal steps in the three phrases (Get down girl) (go
'head) (get down).
That whole line is repeated three times in each; the first and last
times, it's downward tonal steps between each phrase.  The middle
time, the last "get down" rises from the previous.

You can hear similar tonal progressions in the first phrase ("No I
ain't saying"...) and all throughout the song.  Those progressions are
a part of the song, not just random--people covering the tune will use
the same progressions (unless they're trying to totally transform it
into another song, but that can happen with any genre of music), as
you can hear from the Glee interpretation.

You can pull up any of those songs and listen to the tonal
progressions, going all the way back to the Sugar Hill Gang doing
Rapper's Delight in 1979:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFcfqBEzMpc&feature=related

Start at 30 seconds.  The tune should be obvious, and if you listen to
Redman cover the same song 13 years later he uses the same tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PKhMe3e0uU
Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 08:14 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> I'll agree that many rap songs have the singer speaking over things
> that are musical.

Listen to Jimi Hendrix or Bob Dylan. Their 'song' does not always
follow notes. It's music nonetheless.

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Bertel, Denmark

Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 16:34 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Listen to Jimi Hendrix or Bob Dylan. Their 'song' does not always
> follow notes. It's music nonetheless.

Are you thinking about things like Dylan's "Talkin' World War III
Blues"?  Like Woodie Guthrie's "Talking Dustbowl Blues" and Tom
Paxton's "Talking Vietnam Potluck Blues" this sort of "talking blues",
as it's name implies, isn't really considered "singing" by the
authors.  It's speaking to a musical accompanyment.  "Alice's
Restaurant" (with the exception of the chorus), goes even farther in
that direction.  The Moody Blues' "In the Beginning" has an
accompanyment that isn't even quite so musical.

I guess the question is where you draw the line between "singing" and
"reciting poetry" (perhaps with a musical accompanyment).

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Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 19:02 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> > Listen to Jimi Hendrix or Bob Dylan. Their 'song' does not always
> > follow notes. It's music nonetheless.

> Are you thinking about things like Dylan's "Talkin' World War III
> Blues"?  Like Woodie Guthrie's "Talking Dustbowl Blues" and Tom
> Paxton's "Talking Vietnam Potluck Blues"

Dylan's is an example of what I mean. The other two are more
clearly talking than singing.

Here's an example with Jimi Hendrix' "Red House". His play is not
very good - nothing like the beautiful solo he played on the
record - but his singing style is characteristic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOQ9r35uiU

Go to time point 2:00 to get directly to the singing.

> authors.  It's speaking to a musical accompanyment.  "Alice's
> Restaurant" (with the exception of the chorus), goes even farther in
> that direction.

Yes, that is also talking.

> I guess the question is where you draw the line between "singing" and
> "reciting poetry" (perhaps with a musical accompanyment).

You're probably right.

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Bertel, Denmark

Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 20:15 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Go to time point 2:00 to get directly to the singing.

Both in the clip and on the album, I'd say he's clearly singing, and I
wouldn't have any problem writing down the melodic line that he's
singing.

>> authors.  It's speaking to a musical accompanyment.  "Alice's
>> Restaurant" (with the exception of the chorus), goes even farther
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You're probably right.

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Cheryl - 27 Jan 2010 10:38 GMT
>>> But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?
>> I eventually figured out why I disliked rap so much more than rock music
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> what I would call the melody (basically, the patterned progression of
> notes of particular pitches and durations).

Maybe I have to listen to more rap in order to generalize correctly
about its melody (or lack thereof), but life's too short to spend more
time trying out something I find so extremely unpleasant. All I can say
is that anything I've heard that appeared to be, or was said to be, rap
had basically an extremely obvious rhythm and lots of mostly
unintelligible words. I can't recall any performers or song names, though.

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Cheryl

Peter Moylan - 27 Jan 2010 14:29 GMT
>>> But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?
>> I eventually figured out why I disliked rap so much more than rock music
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> what I would call the melody (basically, the patterned progression of
> notes of particular pitches and durations).

Are any of those genuine rap, though? As I understand it, the essence of
rap is spontaneity and creativity. The singer has to compose on the
spot. Planning the words out ahead of time, or rehearsing, would
disqualify its claim to be rap.

If that's so, and I haven't seriously misunderstood the point, there can
be no such thing as recorded rap, because a second playing would violate
the "made up on the spot" condition.

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For an e-mail address, see my web page.

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2010 15:31 GMT
> sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> But rappers have a wonderful sense of rhythm, wouldn't you say?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> be no such thing as recorded rap, because a second playing would violate
> the "made up on the spot" condition.

That would, to me, be a very idiosyncratic definition of rap.

I'm fairly confident that Cheryl's experience is with the recorded
style commonly referred to as rap, not with spontaneous freestyle, and
my objection was to the (IMO misguided) perception that there's no
melody in rap music.

Freestyle's a lot looser with melody, but even there many MCs have
default melodies that the fall into; if you listen to old Eminem
freestyle from before he was signed to a record deal, you'll hear many
of the major note progressions that make it into his later songs--e.g.
jump forward to the 56 second mark of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGB1BhjUvoE&feature=related
and you can hear the pitch changes and even see him signalling low and
high with his hand).

And much of the time, freestyling is done over well-known tracks.  You
can see Snoop Dogg freestyling to I Get Money here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6f9laSqOQ&feature=related
and Ludacris here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaM3R6tIfsg&feature=related

it's a lot less precise than covering a known song, but they both
stick near the note progression.
Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 19:10 GMT
Peter Moylan skrev:

> Are any of those genuine rap, though? As I understand it, the essence of
> rap is spontaneity and creativity. The singer has to compose on the
> spot. Planning the words out ahead of time, or rehearsing, would
> disqualify its claim to be rap.

In that case it is impossible to ever know if something is rap or
not. How do we know that some performance is not just a
repetition? That is not a practical concept.

If you like to go to extremes, you could kill jazz and rock with
the same argument. Both genres are supposed to be mainly
improvised.

That is not how it works. A trained listener can classify a given
piece of music as rap, jazz, rock and so on just by listening to
it (though a lot of grey areas exist of course).

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Bertel, Denmark

Sara Lorimer - 28 Jan 2010 17:14 GMT
> Are any of those genuine rap, though? As I understand it, the essence of
> rap is spontaneity and creativity. The singer has to compose on the
> spot. Planning the words out ahead of time, or rehearsing, would
> disqualify its claim to be rap.

I've never heard that rule before. I think it's more like improvised
comedy -- it's okay to have worked out some things ahead of time.

Signature

SML

Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 22:13 GMT
Skitt skrev:

> Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last few decades.
> There are a few, written by the likes of David Foster, and such.  Most of
> the recent songs seem to consist of very basic repetitive tonal patterns and
> are more about the words, not music.  Rapping is not music.

A drummer or percussionist is not a musician?

I don't listen much to rap for some reason though I have very few
limitations as far as musical genres are concerned, but I do not
discard rap as non-music.

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Bertel, Denmark

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 22:48 GMT
> Skitt skrev:

>> Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last few
>> decades. There are a few, written by the likes of David Foster, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> A drummer or percussionist is not a musician?

He is a musician (loosely speaking) in the "performer" sense, but he is not
one who creates stand-alone music of any merit.

> I don't listen much to rap for some reason though I have very few
> limitations as far as musical genres are concerned, but I do not
> discard rap as non-music.

I think of it as some sort of performance art.  Without musicality, even
though the performer's tone might occasionally change pitch a bit, I could
hardly call it music.  A lousy recital of bad poetry, perhaps.

Are hippie poetry readings with some guitar strumming in the background
still happening?
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

HVS - 25 Jan 2010 22:56 GMT
On 25 Jan 2010, Skitt wrote

>> Skitt skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> He is a musician (loosely speaking) in the "performer" sense,
> but he is not one who creates stand-alone music of any merit.

Drum and percussion ensembles -- even super-commercial, flashy stuff
like Stomp -- say you're mistaken on both the "stand-alone" and
"merit" parts of that statement.

(So does Evelyn Glennie, I'd say.)

The question of whether or not it's "music" falls into the realm of
philosophy rather than fact.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 23:00 GMT
> Skitt wrote
>>> Skitt skrev:

>>>> Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last
>>>> few decades. There are a few, written by the likes of David
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The question of whether or not it's "music" falls into the realm of
> philosophy rather than fact.

Well, yeah, and to my way of thinking, just rhythmic noise is not music.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

HVS - 25 Jan 2010 23:05 GMT
On 25 Jan 2010, Skitt wrote

>> Skitt wrote
>>>> Skitt skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Well, yeah, and to my way of thinking, just rhythmic noise is
> not music.

Our mileages clearly differ, but I figure that any definition of
music that exludes pure rhythm -- or other "pure sound" stuff
that's way beyond my taste in such matters (Stockhausen and Boulez
immediately spring to mind) -- is probably not a very useful
definition of the term.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

James Hogg - 25 Jan 2010 22:57 GMT
>> Skitt skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> He is a musician (loosely speaking) in the "performer" sense, but he is
> not one who creates stand-alone music of any merit.

Three words:
Doudou N'Diaye Rose

Here's an extract from the wonderful film "Djabote":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlG3xLIPX7c

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James

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 23:10 GMT
>>> Skitt skrev:

>>>> Perhaps, but I can't remember most of the tunes of the last few
>>>> decades. There are a few, written by the likes of David Foster, and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Here's an extract from the wonderful film "Djabote":
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlG3xLIPX7c

Good drumming.  Not something that will keep, though.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 00:06 GMT
James Hogg skrev:

> Here's an extract from the wonderful film "Djabote":
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlG3xLIPX7c

Great example. One can hear the tones of the different drums.

Drums have to be tuned - in case somebody didn't know it.

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Bertel, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 00:16 GMT
Bertel Lund Hansen skrev:

> Drums have to be tuned - in case somebody didn't know it.

By the way: Would One Note Samba be music if it stopped before
changing the note?

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Bertel, Denmark

James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 07:09 GMT
> James Hogg skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Drums have to be tuned - in case somebody didn't know it.

If you watch the whole film (I have it on DVD) you find yourself
whistling the tunes afterwards.

Signature

James

Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Jan 2010 17:23 GMT
>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> repetitive tonal patterns and are more about the words, not music.
> Rapping is not music.

> There are a few in the music awards shows that are a little better,
> but none of them will last in popularity past six months or so, I
> think.  None of them will achieve a "standards" rating, I'm sure.
> It is not easy creating a memorable piece of music, but the airwaves
> are filled with the rhythmic but tonally deficient efforts of the
> untalented.

I bet that with a bit of digging, I'd be able to find essentially
*that* statement in every decade for the last century or so.  Probably
longer; it's just that the "untalented" from the seventeenth and
eighteenth century didn't get popularity beyond their own town and so
are completely forgotten.  You're comparing the best of the past with
all of today.

As for rap, I've noticed that we seem to be nearing the end of a
progression.  First (for some value of "first"), you had orchestras.
Then people dropped the strings and let the horns go out in front and
came up with big-band jazz.  Then (most of) the horns were dropped and
the "rhythm section" (piano, guitar, bass, drums) was allowed to move
forward and jazz combos and rock groups formed, with the guitars and
keyboards in front and the bass and drums behind.  Now, the guitars
and pianos are going away leaving just the bass and drums, sometimes
just the drums.

I tend to agree that it isn't really "music" if you can't hum it and
it isn't really a song if you couldn't have a recognizable
instrumental version, but I'm sure that similar statements could have
been (and were) said about ragtime, jazz, rock and roll, blues, rock,
etc.  I also can't remember most of the tunes of the last few
decades.  But there are quite a number that I listen to on my iPod.

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Murray Arnow - 26 Jan 2010 17:36 GMT
>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>etc.  I also can't remember most of the tunes of the last few
>decades.  But there are quite a number that I listen to on my iPod.

Well, the ancients appeared to have songs without melodies. I don't know
how to define music anymore. John Cage really screwed things up for me.
Garrett Wollman - 26 Jan 2010 22:57 GMT
>As for rap, I've noticed that we seem to be nearing the end of a
>progression.  First (for some value of "first"), you had orchestras.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>and pianos are going away leaving just the bass and drums, sometimes
>just the drums.

I have recently heard serious critics opine that hip-hop's sun is
setting.  Twenty years is a long time in modern popular music.

-GAWollman

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sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 26 Jan 2010 23:17 GMT
> In article <hbq8231c....@hpl.hp.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I have recently heard serious critics opine that hip-hop's sun is
> setting.  Twenty years is a long time in modern popular music.

It's been in decline for quite a while; Wikipedia's entry for "rap"
notes that "Golden age hip hop (cited as either just the late '80s or
the late 80s to early 90s) was the time period where hip-hop lyricism
went through its most drastic transformation...The golden age is
considered to have ended around '93-'94, marking the end of rap
lyricism's most innovative period"
Adam Funk - 25 Jan 2010 22:50 GMT
>  Skitt  wrote  on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:39:07 -0800:

>>In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
>
> Haven't we old fogies always said that?

Yes.  Since I was about 15.

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J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 21:37 GMT
> > Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
> >> Lars Eighner skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.

That's what Bach's contemporaries thought too.
Correctly of course, the nobody was soon forgotten,
and it took a hundred years before he was rediscovered,

Jan
Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 22:31 GMT
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:

>>>>> I'm glad I will be dead before the generation of thieves takes
>>>>> over completely.  Naturally I am grateful for the bread that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Correctly of course, the nobody was soon forgotten,
> and it took a hundred years before he was rediscovered,

Do you really think that any of today's stuff will be held in high esteem a
hundred years from now?  If so, which kind of music do you think has that
chance?  Certanly not the stuff that is earning awards now.
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HVS - 25 Jan 2010 22:37 GMT
On 25 Jan 2010, Skitt wrote

>>> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting
>>> value.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do you really think that any of today's stuff will be held in
> high esteem a hundred years from now?

The odds?  I'd say almost certainly, some of it.

> If so, which kind of music do you think has that chance?

That question is as unanswerable today as it was in -- oh, let's
say Ivor Novello's day.  (In his prime, I suspect Novello would've
been close to the top of the list for continued respect.)

> Certanly not the stuff that is earning awards now.

Unless you're a visitor from the future, you simply have no way of
knowing that.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

John Holmes - 26 Jan 2010 08:27 GMT
>>>> If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more music?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> think has that chance?  Certanly not the stuff that is earning awards
> now.

It depends on what you mean by "today's music". I suspect you are using
a fairly narrow definition, but there are young people involved in
creating new music today in all sorts of genres. I don't see any signs
that they are any less creative than earlier generations.

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John
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at tpg dot com dot au

James Hogg - 26 Jan 2010 08:42 GMT
>>>>> If people ceased charging for music, would there be no more
>>>>> music?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>  in creating new music today in all sorts of genres. I don't see any
> signs that they are any less creative than earlier generations.

And when today's teenagers are using Zimmer frames they will probably
look back nostalgically to the pop music of the noughties and say to each
other, "Very little of today's music is of any lasting value."

Signature

James

J. J. Lodder - 26 Jan 2010 10:32 GMT
> >>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
> >>>> Lars Eighner skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> hundred years from now?  If so, which kind of music do you think has that
> chance?  Certanly not the stuff that is earning awards now.

And don't doubt that our grandchildren can see nice boys
singing 'Yesterday' for a concertgebouw audience,
supposing that building to be above the waterline still.

Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 00:53 GMT
>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:
>>>>> Lars Eighner skrev:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> think has that chance?  Certanly not the stuff that is earning awards
> now.

Just to provide a data point:

   "Listen.  This song will prove a rare treat to you, I know.  It
   made the author rich--for an author.  It is called 'My Lulu.'"

   Then the phonograph began to play.  A stain of odd, jerky sounds
   was followed by these words, sung by a man through his nose with
   great vigor of expression:

      "Ah wants mah Lulu, mah coal-black Lulu;
       Ah wants mah loo-loo, loo-loo, loo-loo, Lu!
       Ah loves mah Lulu, mah coal-black Lulu,
       There ain't nobody else loves loo-loo, Lu!"

   "Here--shut that off!" cried the Shaggy Man, springing to his
   feet.  "What do you mean by such impertinence?"

   "It's the latest popular song," declared the phonograph, speaking
   in a sulky tone of voice.

   "A popular song?"

   "Yes.  One that the feeble-minded can remember the words of and
   those ignorant of music can whistle or sing.  That makes a popular
   song popular, and the time is coming when it will take the place
   of all other songs."

                        L. Frank Baum, _The Patchwork Girl of Oz_,
                        1913
                       
I'd say that reports of music's imminent demise are still a bit
premature, but people have been predicting it for at least a century,
probably quite a bit longer.

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Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 08:27 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> I'd say that reports of music's imminent demise are still a bit
> premature, but people have been predicting it for at least a century,
> probably quite a bit longer.

Music's demise is not imminent. At no other time in history have
so many people produced so much music as they do now. For a few
thousands bobs (of your favourite currency) you can set up a home
studio, and millions of young people do it.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Chuck Riggs - 27 Jan 2010 15:27 GMT
>Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>thousands bobs (of your favourite currency) you can set up a home
>studio, and millions of young people do it.

Never before in history has anyone who can afford the price of a good
pair of headphones, thirty pounds for a Sony Walkman and the dosh for
the CDs of his choice, have an essentially endless supply of good
quality music at his fingertips. Stop me before I say I love Big
Brother, or whoever made all this possible.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 22:01 GMT
Skitt skrev:

> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.

In my guess that is true for any period. The bad music just
didn't survive.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

R H Draney - 26 Jan 2010 00:48 GMT
Bertel Lund Hansen filted:

>Skitt skrev:
>
>> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
>
>In my guess that is true for any period. The bad music just
>didn't survive.

It's interesting to hear that proclamation just as *two* competing shows on the
life and times of Florence Foster Jenkins are making the circuit....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Bertel Lund Hansen - 26 Jan 2010 07:29 GMT
R H Draney skrev:

> >In my guess that is true for any period. The bad music just
> >didn't survive.

> It's interesting to hear that proclamation just as *two* competing shows on the
> life and times of Florence Foster Jenkins are making the circuit....r

So? It's not for the musical qualities. The (eventual popularity
of the) Hoffnung Symphony Orchestra does not invalidate my point
either.

But I might have to expand on the concept "survive":

With the availability today of cheap ways to store unbelievably
large amounts of data, a lot of crap music may 'survive'. But it
will not be alive.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

J. J. Lodder - 26 Jan 2010 10:32 GMT
> R H Draney skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> large amounts of data, a lot of crap music may 'survive'. But it
> will not be alive.

How many music scores on paper (most of it never performed)
exist in countless music libraries around the world?

Jan
J. J. Lodder - 26 Jan 2010 10:32 GMT
> Skitt skrev:
>
> > In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
>
> In my guess that is true for any period. The bad music just
> didn't survive.

And the other way round what survives
is (by definition) the good music.

A lot of chance involved,

Jan
Cheryl - 26 Jan 2010 11:21 GMT
> Skitt skrev:
>
>> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
>
> In my guess that is true for any period. The bad music just
> didn't survive.

Surely some of the good music didn't survive either. Which leads to the
question of how we determine good music from bad, if 'length of
survival' is possibly not a good measure.

Signature

Cheryl

Garrett Wollman - 26 Jan 2010 23:02 GMT
>Surely some of the good music didn't survive either. Which leads to the
>question of how we determine good music from bad, if 'length of
>survival' is possibly not a good measure.

If a disinterested listener likes it, it's good music, as far as I'm
concerned.  (This does mean that some things that I consider utter
crap, like the songs of talentless warbler James Blunt, count as "good
music" by this definition.  This is not really a contradiction; Blunt
is subjectively awful, but he is clearly objectively good by some
measure, because what he has produced pleases many people, even if not
me, and that is after all the whole point.)

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Skitt - 26 Jan 2010 23:14 GMT
>> Surely some of the good music didn't survive either. Which leads to
>> the question of how we determine good music from bad, if 'length of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> measure, because what he has produced pleases many people, even if not
> me, and that is after all the whole point.)

It's not what he does, it's how he looks that excites the young females.  He
could do anything and they would scream just as loudly.  Then, to show their
love and devotion, they have to buy his stuff.  That's the way it works.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Garrett Wollman - 26 Jan 2010 23:16 GMT
>It's not what [Blunt] does, it's how he looks that excites the young
>females.  He could do anything and they would scream just as loudly.
>Then, to show their love and devotion, they have to buy his stuff.

The radio station I listen to played him, and "young females" are
definitely not in their target demo.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Skitt - 26 Jan 2010 23:19 GMT
>> It's not what [Blunt] does, it's how he looks that excites the young
>> females.  He could do anything and they would scream just as loudly.
>> Then, to show their love and devotion, they have to buy his stuff.
>
> The radio station I listen to played him, and "young females" are
> definitely not in their target demo.

How do you know that?  Besides, what gets played on a radio station is
mostly up to the singer's agent's persuasiveness, I think.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Garrett Wollman - 26 Jan 2010 23:49 GMT
>>> It's not what [Blunt] does, it's how he looks that excites the young
>>> females.  He could do anything and they would scream just as loudly.
>>> Then, to show their love and devotion, they have to buy his stuff.

>> The radio station I listen to played him, and "young females" are
>> definitely not in their target demo.

>How do you know that?

Because I have made a study of the industry.  Adult-alternative
stations, like the one I usually listen to, are programmed for
females, yes, but aged 25-54, not 18-34.  Some of them are probably
aging out of this demo now.

>Besides, what gets played on a radio station is mostly up to the
>singer's agent's persuasiveness, I think.

You think incorrectly.  Artists' agents have next to nothing to do
with radio airplay.  The factors that matter for most commercial
stations are record-company promotional effort and focus-group
results.  The promotional effort drives single sales (these days
almost entirely downloads), which reinforces the focus-group results
for those stations which consider chart rankings.  (The other
component to the charts is, you guessed it, radio airplay.)  The only
place agents get involved is in putting together in-person promotional
appearances -- usually associated with a concert tour -- and voicing
station liners[1].  (Sometimes stations will add songs they wouldn't
otherwise, just to suck up to some big-name artist's recording label,
in order to get them to get the artist to help promote the station.)

AAA stations tend to be a bit more music-focused and will allow their
music directors some latitude in building the playlist.  (In general,
stations with a significant amount of non-current music will have
music directors -- either locally or in New York or Cincinnati -- who
decide which, of that subset of older songs that still test well in
focus groups, to put in the playlist for any given week.)  An
automated music-scheduling system will then generate a log for each
day, based on criteria such as spot load, promotional tie-ins, and the
station's rules about segues, repetition, vocalist gender, and tempo.

-GAWollman

[1] As in, "Hi, I'm [X Y], and when I'm in [CITY] I always listen to
[SLOGAN]".
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Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Bertel Lund Hansen - 27 Jan 2010 08:20 GMT
Garrett Wollman skrev:

> is subjectively awful, but he is clearly objectively good by some
> measure, because what he has produced pleases many people, even if not
> me, and that is after all the whole point.)

That is a dangerous argument. Yesterday evening I saw a british
tv-broadcast about Hitler and the Germans' relation to him. There
were crowds of cheering and crying females much like the crowds
that worshipped the Beatles and many others.

I don't think that that qualifies his performance as objectively
good.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jan 2010 15:55 GMT
> Garrett Wollman skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I don't think that that qualifies his performance as objectively
> good.

Really?  My understanding was that as an orator he was considered
generally considered to have been very good.  One doesn't need to
think much of the message to accept that it is well-delivered.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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Robin Bignall - 28 Jan 2010 21:43 GMT
>> Garrett Wollman skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>generally considered to have been very good.  One doesn't need to
>think much of the message to accept that it is well-delivered.

I'm not sure one even has to understand the language.  During the war
I heard parts of Hitler's speeches on the radio and saw them at the
cinema on Movietone News, and the power and presence of the man came
across strongly.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Peter Moylan - 29 Jan 2010 12:23 GMT
>> Garrett Wollman skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> generally considered to have been very good.  One doesn't need to
> think much of the message to accept that it is well-delivered.

On top of that, you have to consider the state of mind of the German
public. The nation's economy had been wrecked in the aftermath of an
earlier defeat, the people were unhappy, and the time was ripe for a
leader who could restore German pride. Hitler saw what his audience
wanted, and he delivered it. That too made him a good performer. He was
in touch with popular sentiment.

The fact that I thoroughly disapprove of what he subsequently did is a
separate matter. I can recognise talent even in people I don't like.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Nick - 26 Jan 2010 19:19 GMT
> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.

My word, Skitt's discovered Sturgeon's law.
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R H Draney - 26 Jan 2010 20:18 GMT
Nick filted:

>> In my opinion, very little of today's music is of any lasting value.
>
>My word, Skitt's discovered Sturgeon's law.

Too bad the converse is no longer possible....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 21:37 GMT
> >> Berkeley Brett <royaloui@gmail.com>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> my table, but more for for having lived in a time when creative people could
> still expect to be rewarded for their efforts.

Yet, the possibility of dragging in some hundreds of millions
seems more than necessary to motive people to do something,

Jan
Pablo - 25 Jan 2010 14:51 GMT
El Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:50:31 +0000, Mike Barnes escribió:

> Where it all gets messy is the amount of the loss. The loss of your
> bicycle is fairly easy to evaluate. But that copy of an MP3 file is
> often valued at whatever amount the rights-holder would have asked for
> it had they been given the opportunity (and if they were willing to sell
> it to you at all). This is not an actual loss.

It's all a load of tosh anyway. I reckon most stuff that's pirated hasn't
cost or lost anyone anything. I've got tons of pirated music, but I don't
listen to a hundredth of it. When it becomes a loss, is whether I'd have
bought it had it not been available for nought. And the answer is hardly
ever. When I actually want something, I go and buy it. I have lots of
films and albums that I've bought, a lot of which I listened to once only.

Copying stuff to flog it is different, but that suggests that people are
prepared to pay for music and films. Think on that.

Signature

Pablo

Berkeley Brett - 25 Jan 2010 15:07 GMT
Pablo:

Thank you for your contribution.

[somewhat OT]: This reminds me of the question of why the Beatles have
never licensed their songs for MP3 download (I think Sir Paul could do
this single-handedly?)

Anyone who wants Beatles songs as MP3s can certainly find them with
little effort amongst the file-sharers.  Yet many people who want to
"do the right thing" would gladly pay for the songs.

I suspect whoever benefits financially from the sales of Beatles songs
is losing a fair bit of revenue by withholding them from the MP3
market.

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.100bestwebsites.org/
"The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2010 00:29 GMT
> El Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:50:31 +0000, Mike Barnes escribió:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> buy it. I have lots of films and albums that I've bought, a lot of
> which I listened to once only.

I agree.  Not to mention that a lot of stuff is bought used, which
most people agree isn't "theft", but also doesn't result in revenue
for the copyright holder, except in the minuscule way that my taking a
used CD off the market might conceivably cause someone to decide that,
being unable to find one, they'll buy a new copy.

> Copying stuff to flog it is different, but that suggests that people
> are prepared to pay for music and films. Think on that.

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Don Phillipson - 25 Jan 2010 12:48 GMT
> If someone steals my bicycle, they take my bicycle and, in so doing,
> DEPRIVE me of my bicycle.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
> my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

From the jurisprudential point of view, this argument is simply
too late to be considered.   Since the invention of copyright (in
Shakespeare's time in common law, in 19th century legislation)
Anglo-Saxon laws apply to it the model of patented intellectual
property and its infringement.   If you copied one of James Watt's
new steam engines, your crime was denial of the fee or royalty you
ought to have paid Mr. Watt:  and similarly for the copier of sheet
music or a recording.   A wrong has been done although that
wrong is not deprivation of use or enjoyment.

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Bertel Lund Hansen - 25 Jan 2010 15:33 GMT
Berkeley Brett skrev:

> But if someone COPIES an MP3 song file from my computer without my
> permission, they have TAKEN it BUT they have NOT DEPRIVED me of it.

> Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?  Is *depriving* me of the song
> file an essential element of stealing, or is merely copying it without
> my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

Under Danish law theft (tyveri) only happens if something
tangible is removed from the owner(s control). Money in any form
is a tangible object.

I think burglary is "indbrud" (in-break) in Danish. This only
involves forced entrance - where the force may be only what is
needed to operate a handle.

If violence or a weapon is used as a threat or to attack with
during a theft, it becomes a robbery (røveri).

So in Denmark illegal copying is not a theft, and it is not
punishable under our criminal law.

Signature

Bertel, Denmark

J. J. Lodder - 25 Jan 2010 21:37 GMT
> Berkeley Brett skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> involves forced entrance - where the force may be only what is
> needed to operate a handle.

That's a bit simplistic. Dutch law make a difference between
'inbraak' (forcing entry) and 'insluip'
(sneaking in without breaking anything)

You made me wonder: does English 'burglary' also cover both cases?

Jan
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 25 Jan 2010 22:07 GMT
>> Berkeley Brett skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>You made me wonder: does English 'burglary' also cover both cases?

Yes.

   Theft Act 1968

   9.
   Burglary.
   (1) A person is guilty of burglary if—
     (a) he enters any building or part of a building as a trespasser
      and with intent to commit any such offence as is mentioned in
      subsection (2) below; or
     (b) having entered any building or part of a building as a
      trespasser he steals or attempts to steal anything in the
      building or that part of it or inflicts or attempts to inflict on
      any person therein any grievous bodily harm.
   (2) The offences referred to in subsection (1)(a) above are offences
   of stealing anything in the building or part of a building in
   question, of inflicting on any person therein any grievous bodily
   harm ... therein, and of doing unlawful damage to the building or
   anything therein.
   (3)<length of imprisonment for burglary>
   (4) References in subsections (1) and (2) above to a building, and
   the reference in subsection (3) above to a building which is a
   dwelling, shall apply also to an inhabited vehicle or vessel, and
   shall apply to any such vehicle or vessel at times when the person
   having a habitation in it is not there as well as at times when he
   is.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Skitt - 25 Jan 2010 22:27 GMT
>> Berkeley Brett skrev:

>>> But if someone COPIES an MP3 song file from my computer without my
>>> permission, they have TAKEN it BUT they have NOT DEPRIVED me of it.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> You made me wonder: does English 'burglary' also cover both cases?

American "breaking and entering" is burglary if it is done with an intent to
commit a crime.  If it is only to gain unauthorized access, it is trespass.
The force used to gain entry does not really matter, as the pushing open of
a door is sufficient for the "breaking" part.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 25 Jan 2010 23:01 GMT
> > Berkeley Brett skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> You made me wonder: does English 'burglary' also cover both cases?

I think that the distinction you make there is closest to the
difference between "breaking" and "entering" in English-based law.
Entering is just that--if you walk in through the front door that I
left wide open, that's entering.

Breaking means somehow altering the environs to make entering
possible--but it doesn't have to really be "forcing" anything.  If I
leave my front door wide open and you walk in to my house, that's just
entering--but if I leave it only open a few centimeters, so you have
to swing it open a little wider to get in, that's breaking and
entering even though you didn't really force the door (since you had
to alter the premises in order to get in).  Using fraud to alter the
premises (e.g. telling the maid that you're a repair man so that she
opens the door) is generally considered "breaking".

Traditionally in English common law, burglary requires 5 elements:
(1) Breaking ; and
(2) Entering (by means of the break)
(3) of someone else's residence
(4) at night
(5) with the intent to commit a felony

#5 is the least self-explanatory: If you broke in to someone's house
without intending to commit a felony (e.g. just to sleep in a warm
sofa for the night) and wound up committing a felony later, it was
pretty random whether courts would consider that burglary.

#1 and #2 are also linked in a perhaps obvious way: The entering has
to result from the breaking for burglary to occur.  If I grab a
crowbar, force open your window, then notice that the back door is
wide open and walk in through it, that is not enough to rise to the
level of burglary by the old definition.

Some of the other elements should be somewhat self-explanatory even if
their presence is surprising: sneaking in through my home's open front
door at night to steal something is not burglary (no "breaking", #1).
If you break into my house during the day to steal something, that
wasn't burglary either because of #4.

Note that the felony does not have to be theft, and that it doesn't
have to be successfully executed (or even actually attempted): if I
break in through one of your windows one night with the intent of
burning the place down, immediately find myself face to face with your
Pit Bull, and dive out the window and begin to flee, I've committed
burglary.

Most modern definitions have dropped clauses 1, 3 and 4, so it's
possible to commit burglary of a non-residence, or during the day, or
just by entering.  Many have loosened #5 (non-felony theft is often
allowed as another crime that will raise the act to burglary, and
committing a felony on the premises generally makes it burglary
whether or not you intended to commit that felony at the time you
broke in), and often the "entering" clause is pretty nebulous and
doesn't have to refer to an enclosed area.

In the US, it's now usually burglary if you trespass or remain
unlawfully in the area with the intent of committing a felony or a non-
felony theft (or commit such a crime while on the premises).  So,
sneaking into an open warehouse during the day to steal a hammer is
burglary in most US jurisdictions nowadays, though historically it
would have failed (1), (3), (4), and (5).
Garrett Wollman - 26 Jan 2010 03:31 GMT
>In the US, it's now usually burglary if you trespass or remain
>unlawfully in the area with the intent of committing a felony or a non-
>felony theft (or commit such a crime while on the premises).  So,
>sneaking into an open warehouse during the day to steal a hammer is
>burglary in most US jurisdictions nowadays, though historically it
>would have failed (1), (3), (4), and (5).

Figuring that, as Massachusetts has one of the more antique criminal
codes in the U.S., I checked the Massachusetts General Laws.  There
are a number of relevant crimes defined:

- Armed burglary
- Simple burglary
- Breaking and entering at night
- Breaking and entering a building, vessel, or vehicle with intent to
commit misdemeanor
- Entering without breaking at night, or breaking and entering in
the daytime, and
- Entering a dwelling house at night, or breaking and entering a
dwelling house in the daytime

The definition of armed burglary (M.G.L. chap. 266, sec. 14):

: Whoever breaks and enters a dwelling house in the night time, with
: intent to commit a felony, or whoever, after having entered with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: person lawfully therein, shall be punished by imprisonment in the
: state prison for life or for any term of not less than ten years.

What's interesting here is that, to be considered an armed burglary,
the "dwelling house" must be *lawfully occupied* by another person.
(Unarmed burglary makes no such requirement, unless an assault takes
place.)  There's also no requirement that it be someone else's house!

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Berkeley Brett - 26 Jan 2010 01:39 GMT
Incidentally, according to Rolling Stone magazine, the famous $1.9
million judgement against a Minnesota mom for file sharing has just
been slashed to $54K by a district court judge:

http://tinyurl.com/yhso4g4

=== begin quoted text ===

Judge Slashes $1.92 Million RIAA Ruling Against Minnesota Mom

1/22/10, 4:25 pm EST

A Minnesota District Court judge has significantly slashed the $1.92
million fine against Minnesota mom Jammie Thomas-Rasset, who was sued
by the RIAA after illegally downloading 24 songs through peer-to-peer
networks. In a decision announced today, Judge Michael Davis found
that the decision to fine Thomas-Rasset’s $80,000 per song was “simply
shocking” and downright unconstitutional. Davis then sliced the
penalty to $2,250 per song for a grand total of $54,000 — a 97 percent
drop from the previous sentence, Copyrights & Campaigns reports. The
major labels named as plaintiffs in the case now have seven days to
decide whether to accept this fine or let Thomas-Rasset go to trial
for a third time.... (more in the article)

=== end quoted text ===

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.electoralmaps.org/
Pictorial election results for every U.S. Presidential Election from
George Washington to Barack Obama.
Ian Noble - 31 Jan 2010 10:54 GMT
>In the thread titled "Upgrade" an issue of usage was raised concerning
>"burglar" and "thief" -- a burglar, it is supposed, breaks into your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Have they "stolen" the MP3 song file?
No.

>  Is *depriving* me of the song
>file an essential element of stealing,
Yes.

> or is merely copying it without
>my permission sufficient to use the word "stealing" or "theft"?

No.

>Your feedback is most welcome....

The conflation of copyright infringement and theft is propaganda, pure
and simple. It is notable that the usage comes almost entirely from
parties (and in particular large corporate parties) with vested
financial interests in the area. It is clearly calculated to hook into
people's established views of proper behaviour ("Copying is theft, and
theft is wrong, so copying is wrong"). In the process it attempts to
sideline any objective debate about the topic and to win self-serving
legislation by stealth. It's not an abuse of language that anyone who
values the concept of a society governed on grounds of fairness and
rational, considered law-making should allow to pass unchallenged.  

The whole concept of copyright is a very modern and artificial one.
The first real copyright act wasn't until 1709 (UK, Statue of Anne),
and the concept wasn't established internationally until as late as
1886 (the Berne Convention) - within my own grandfather's lifetime.
It's also very much a technical, social-engineering concept - give the
creator of a work a protected period in which to profit from that
creation, without depriving society as a whole of its benefits in the
longer run. It's emphatically *not* been a concept that copying itself
is wrong or even remotely undesirable (something that is demonstrably
and emphatically not true; the whole concept of human culture is
defined by and underpinned by shared - i.e. imitated and copied -
values and behaviours).

As for the specifics of music copying - it's a complex subject, but
the detail, when examined independently, has not tended to bear out
the strident, simplistic arguments of the large media corporations
("one download = one lost sale at full market price" - the average
10-year-old could poke a couple of holes in that). On the contrary,
such objective studies as there have been have been pretty consistent
in showing that unauthorised** copying *increases*, rather than
decreases, music sales. And very recent figures issued by the record
industry itself show that, far from being mere thieving leechers, file
sharers on average spend a third *more* on music than non-sharers, and
are *twice* as likely to subscribe to paid download services.  None of
which will stop the big media companies from spending large sums each
year in lobbying to get laws passed to protect their old and
now-probably-broken business models; nor, based on the evidence, is
the average politician inclined to make the effort to look beyond that
lobbying and understand the complexities.

[** Almost all copying is unauthorised, not illegal. An act isn't
illegal until a court examines the facts and determines that an
offense actually took place. In the case of music downloading there
have been almost no such findings.]

It's unclear whether or not, in the age of the internet as it is
developing, there actually exist any business models which will
continue to allow corporate profit (on a scale remotely similar to
that of the late 20th century) to be made from music. It's certainly a
matter for society as a whole to decide, though, whether there is a
need for such a sector - not something to be forced through ito its
own advantage by big business (which is what we're currently seeing).
The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
law - but sadly, it's hard to see that happening in the current
climate.

Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Lars Eighner - 31 Jan 2010 11:50 GMT
> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
> law - but sadly, it's hard to see that happening in the current
> climate.

If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?  Why
should they bother to invest the time required to become very good at it?

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Leslie Danks - 31 Jan 2010 12:47 GMT
>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Why should they bother to invest the time required to become very good
> at it?

Because they are driven by an inner compulsion to do what they do and
can't help themselves. This is how I have always imagined a true artist.  

Signature

Les (BrE)

Robin Bignall - 31 Jan 2010 13:25 GMT
>>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Because they are driven by an inner compulsion to do what they do and
>can't help themselves. This is how I have always imagined a true artist.  

Don't forget the bit about living in a garret,  begging on the streets
for crusts, playing the viola da gamba for food etc.  Faced with the
thought of that, that epoch-making novel that I know I have inside me
will remain there and the world can suffer its absence.
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(BrE)
Herts, England

R H Draney - 31 Jan 2010 20:12 GMT
Robin Bignall filted:

>>> If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?
>>> Why should they bother to invest the time required to become very good
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>thought of that, that epoch-making novel that I know I have inside me
>will remain there and the world can suffer its absence.

"Ladies and gentlemen, I've suffered for my music -- and now it's your turn."
-- Neil Innes

....r

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John Dunlop - 31 Jan 2010 13:28 GMT
Leslie Danks:

>> If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?
>> Why should they bother to invest the time required to become very good
>> at it?
>
> Because they are driven by an inner compulsion to do what they do and
> can't help themselves. This is how I have always imagined a true artist.

I found this quite interesting:

http://naggum.no/motivation.html

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Leslie Danks - 31 Jan 2010 17:28 GMT
> Leslie Danks:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://naggum.no/motivation.html

Indeed. Strangely enough, I have just finished reading "Irrationality" by
Stuart Sutherland (IBSN 978-1-905177-07-3), in one chapter of which he
discusses  various studies demonstrating that performance of certain
tasks is worse if a reward is offered than if no reward is offered.

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Les (BrE)
Irrationality recommended.

Default User - 01 Feb 2010 22:52 GMT
> >> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
> >> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > all?  Why should they bother to invest the time required to become
> > very good at it?

For musicians, touring and other live performances have always been a
major, if not predominant, source of revenue from their work.

> Because they are driven by an inner compulsion to do what they do and
> can't help themselves. This is how I have always imagined a true
> artist.

Some do that already. For instance, the world of text-adventure games.
There used to be a lot of money there, but now . . . not so much. The
commercial outfits essentially abandoned the field, except for
rereleases of old games. However amateurs have stepped in continue
development, often producing some amazing work.

One person, Graham Nelson, not only wrote freely distributed games but
designed and developed a system for creating games.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Nelson>

I can't even imagine how time he spent on this, plus all the follow-on
effort from others.

Brian

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John Varela - 31 Jan 2010 19:29 GMT
> > The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
> > overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?  Why
> should they bother to invest the time required to become very good at it?
Some people need to rationalize their unauthorized use of the
product of others' efforts. No one cares if they do that internally,
but why do they think the rest of us want to hear it?

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Adam Funk - 31 Jan 2010 21:37 GMT
>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?  Why
> should they bother to invest the time required to become very good at it?

Shakespeare and Bach made a living without copyright.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Jan 2010 22:53 GMT
>>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Shakespeare and Bach made a living without copyright.

Bach made a living by being employed as a musician in various
capacities: organist, concertmaster, director of music, etc.
He didn't make an income directly from his composing activities.

Shakespeare made a living as an actor and part owner of a theatre
company.

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(in alt.usage.english)

Evan Kirshenbaum - 01 Feb 2010 02:37 GMT
>>>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>>>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> all?  Why should they bother to invest the time required to become
>>> very good at it?

I think that's one of those "If you have to ask, you'll never know"
types of question.

>>Shakespeare and Bach made a living without copyright.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Shakespeare made a living as an actor and part owner of a theatre
> company.

Yeah.  If it hadn't been for copyright, the Beatles would have had to
go out and *perform* their works in order to make money, and how many
people would have paid them for that?

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Berkeley Brett - 01 Feb 2010 13:55 GMT
I recall the eminent literary critic Harold Bloom (Sterling Professor
of the Humanities at Yale University) making the point that plagiarism
is a legal -- not an aesthetic -- issue.  (For example, many of
Shakespeare's stories were borrowed, as I realized when reading
Boccaccio's "Decameron" in my early 20s; this is, of course, just one
of many possible examples.)  Great artists have often influenced one
another and even borrowed from one another.

--
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Pictorial election results for every U.S. Presidential Election from
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Lars Eighner - 01 Feb 2010 14:10 GMT
In our last episode,
<02ec528b-1092-45a6-82f4-fb0e1a337a0a@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Berkeley Brett broadcast on alt.usage.english:

> I recall the eminent literary critic Harold Bloom (Sterling Professor
> of the Humanities at Yale University) making the point that plagiarism
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of many possible examples.)  Great artists have often influenced one
> another and even borrowed from one another.

Copyright has nothing to do with "borrowing" or plagarism.  There is no
copyright in ideas or facts.  Copyright applies to particular expressions of
ideas.

Some of the defenses of piracy I have read here insist that copying is
necessary in some way for human progress.  I very much doubt that.  Taking
someone else's ideas or someone else's fact may indeed be plagarism, but it
isn't copyright infringement.  The defense that stealing is somehow
justified because the taker does not know who it belonged to or that in fact
it belonged to someone else --- well, perhaps, that will wash for those who
were raised by wolves.  But those of us who had mothers know the answer to
that is "You knew it wasn't yours."

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Paul Wolff - 01 Feb 2010 20:22 GMT
>In our last episode,
><02ec528b-1092-45a6-82f4-fb0e1a337a0a@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> of many possible examples.)  Great artists have often influenced one
>> another and even borrowed from one another.

Just so. Consider JWM Turner's will, offering 'Dido Building Carthage'
to the National Gallery on condition that it be placed next to
Claude’s 'Seaport with the Embarkation of the Queen of Sheba' which
inspired it. (I hope it's JWM - I knew a JMW Turner once, or vice versa,
and have always been uncertain ever since.) The exhibition 'Turner and
the Masters' at the Tate Britain ended yesterday, and I missed it.

>Copyright has nothing to do with "borrowing" or plagarism.  There is no
>copyright in ideas

That's what they say, but they aren't being strictly accurate. The ideas
of Holden Caulfield and of Harry Potter are protected by copyright. Or
if not copyright, just what is it that protects those ideas? It is trite
law that names cannot be protected by copyright, and a book that
describes an adventure of one of those characters need not copy the
originals to be up against a formidable set of lawsuits.

>or facts.  Copyright applies to particular expressions of
>ideas.

Or, to very woolly expressions of ideas, as in "What would this
character do if faced by this situation, which the original author never
even thought of?"
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Donna Richoux - 02 Feb 2010 14:17 GMT
> >Copyright has nothing to do with "borrowing" or plagarism.  There is no
> >copyright in ideas
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> describes an adventure of one of those characters need not copy the
> originals to be up against a formidable set of lawsuits.

That's trademark law. The names and images in Harry Potter, Disney
movies, etc, are protected by trademark law.

Here, for example, is a case in which the trademark application for
"Harry Pothead" products was denied. The court found it was too similar
to the famous trademark "Harry Potter," and the element of parody was
not sufficient defense.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/foia/ttab/other/2006/91156299.p
df

> >or facts.  Copyright applies to particular expressions of
> >ideas.

Copyright pertains to making and distributing copies. You can write
about the ideas in some book all you like, and you can sell that
writing you created. But it's when you try duplicating and selling
copies of the original work (that you didn't write) that you run afoul
of copyright law.

> Or, to very woolly expressions of ideas, as in "What would this
> character do if faced by this situation, which the original author never
> even thought of?"

Amateur Star Trek "fanfic" was big in the 90s. I assume it's still going
on.

You can bet that anyone who sells a Star Trek sequel as a paperback book
has arranged for permission -- or license, really -- from the studio.
Example:

   Pocket Books was the first publisher given license by
    Paramount to produce a series of original novels and
    episode novelizations based on Star Trek: Deep Space
    Nine. ...

I assume that all the music "sampling" that has gone on in the last
decade has been a source of glee for wheelers and dealers in the music
publishing industry, though I have no idea how much they get when their
old songs are quoted in new hits. There's an up-front fee, probably,
plus another based on radio play and recording sales...

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Paul Wolff - 02 Feb 2010 20:46 GMT
>Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>That's trademark law. The names and images in Harry Potter, Disney
>movies, etc, are protected by trademark law.

I asked for that, by naming him who must not be named, H**** P*****. I
should have chosen a character less likely to be commercialised, like
Rincewind and his Luggage, or Captain Vimes and the Watch. It's not the
function of trademark law to protect characters in fiction, which are
the 'ideas' I am writing about. It is certainly possible that the name
or the image of a fictional character can be turned into a trademark, as
a sign that speaks of a particular commercial source of goods, but in
general authors don't use their character names in this way.

>Here, for example, is a case in which the trademark application for
>"Harry Pothead" products was denied. The court found it was too similar
>to the famous trademark "Harry Potter," and the element of parody was
>not sufficient defense.
>http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/foia/ttab/other/2006/91156299.p
>df

All very well, but in the great majority of cases trademark difficulties
are not what stops authors from writing stories about each others'
characters. It is either copyright or the fear of copyright.

OK, the real reason is usually indifference to other authors' works, but
leaving that aside, it's copyright. There's no US trademark registration
for Holden Caulfield, for example, and the book "Coming Through the Rye"
was suppressed on copyright grounds. The judge thought that the
'character' Holden Caulfield was in some sense a copyright work, despite
not being named as such in the later work, and that the copyright was
infringed. You can't tell me that this is not an instance of copyright
protecting an idea.

>> >or facts.  Copyright applies to particular expressions of
>> >ideas.
>
>Copyright pertains to making and distributing copies.

But not necessarily both. Either is covered, alone. Of course
distribution is only covered if the work is already an infringing copy.

I personally find it very hard* to see "Coming Through the Rye" as a
copy, if the descriptions of it that I have read are accurate and not
misleading.

>You can write
>about the ideas in some book all you like, and you can sell that
>writing you created. But it's when you try duplicating and selling
>copies of the original work (that you didn't write) that you run afoul
>of copyright law.

See "Coming Through the Rye".

There's pre-trial comment on the US 'character copyright' concept here:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/06/02/a-closer-look-at-the-jd-salinger-laws
uit/

which I don't think maps on to British copyright law, and indeed the
book was successfully published in the UK (or tell me if I'm wrong).

>> Or, to very woolly expressions of ideas, as in "What would this
>> character do if faced by this situation, which the original author never
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>     episode novelizations based on Star Trek: Deep Space
>     Nine. ...

So that's more evidence that copyright does, in fact, protect ideas.

>I assume that all the music "sampling" that has gone on in the last
>decade has been a source of glee for wheelers and dealers in the music
>publishing industry, though I have no idea how much they get when their
>old songs are quoted in new hits. There's an up-front fee, probably,
>plus another based on radio play and recording sales...

Not sure how this fits the discussion. Music recordings are clearly
protected by copyright.

* Impossible
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 03 Feb 2010 23:31 GMT
>>Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> particular commercial source of goods, but in general authors don't
> use their character names in this way.

Actually, I rather suspect that they do.  With any series of novels or
movies, I'd think that after the first couple (likely after the
first), someone familiar with the earlier instalments would likely be
surprised to find that another work with the same characters wasn't in
fact written by the same author (or, when multiple authors are
involved, otherwise part of the official "canon").  Thus it raises
confusion in the mind of the consumer as to the source of the work and
would probably be seen as a copyright violation.  What authors
probably don't do most of the time is register the trademarks (which
limits the remedies available), but the trademark probably exists.
And if the authors are counting on readers to see their new book as
"the next in the series", they're relying on the trademark to do that
for them.

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R H Draney - 04 Feb 2010 00:12 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

> With any series of novels or
>movies, I'd think that after the first couple (likely after the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>"the next in the series", they're relying on the trademark to do that
>for them.

Which reminds me...I held off picking up "And Another Thing..." by Eoin
Colfer...is it finally considered, in accordance with its intention, a true
continuation of the "Hitchhiker's Guide" series, or a mere mercenary attempt to
cash in on the smoldering remains of Douglas Adams?...r

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Feb 2010 01:39 GMT
>> It is certainly possible that the name or the image of a fictional
>> character can be turned into a trademark, as a sign that speaks of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> raises confusion in the mind of the consumer as to the source of the
> work and would probably be seen as a copyright violation.

Argh!  A *trademark* violation, idiot!

> What authors probably don't do most of the time is register the
> trademarks (which limits the remedies available), but the trademark
> probably exists.  And if the authors are counting on readers to see
> their new book as "the next in the series", they're relying on the
> trademark to do that for them.

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Paul Wolff - 04 Feb 2010 12:26 GMT
>Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>confusion in the mind of the consumer as to the source of the work and
>would probably be seen as a copyright violation.

[correction to "trademark violation" noted as intended]

>What authors
>probably don't do most of the time is register the trademarks (which
>limits the remedies available), but the trademark probably exists.
>And if the authors are counting on readers to see their new book as
>"the next in the series", they're relying on the trademark to do that
>for them.

I like the idea of every occurrence of the names in a series of novels
being followed by (TM), to secure the rights and develop secondary
(trademark) meaning. "The Patrician(TM) of Ankh-Morpork(TM) smiled, but
with his mouth only."

If the use of a character name in a published novel is, taking acquired
distinctiveness (English concept) or secondary meaning (US concept) into
account, use of the name in commerce to identify the goods as coming
from a particular source (which I don't think is generally its purpose),
and to distinguish those goods from similar goods from other sources
(which again I don't think is its purpose), the commercial source is the
publisher, not the author. The author doesn't seem to me to be engaged
in commerce in books, but to be a writer of fiction that can
subsequently be turned into a commercial product, and put on the market,
by the publisher, to whom the benefit of the mark accrues. The publisher
should then be able to commission a different author to continue the
series, if the first flags. Perhaps this is all in fact true, and
happens in real life. It is certainly consistent with what happens in
other commercial fields, where a design house creates for a consumer
goods company a distinctive design or design family capable of acquiring
trademark value in time, and any trademark that results belongs to the
commercial entity, not the creative entity.

Back to "Harry Potter", the commercial entity that owns the marks in the
US appears to be Warner Entertainment, not the author.
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Jerry Friedman - 04 Feb 2010 05:14 GMT
> > >Copyright has nothing to do with "borrowing" or plagarism.  There is no
> > >copyright in ideas
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Amateur Star Trek "fanfic" was big in the 90s. I assume it's still going
> on.

There's a great deal of fanfic of all kinds in the world.  I've
written a little myself, though few have seen it.  An assiduous search
(of a popular on-line encyclopedia) suggests that the legality of
distributing fanfic has never been tested.  It almost happened: Larry
Niven ordered the Internet writer Elf Sternberg to cease and desist
distributing a pornographic story about Niven's kzinti (aliens).
Sternberg defied him and Niven did nothing further legally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction

That article also says that the "major" fanfic archives on the Web
comply with authors' requests to forbid derivatives of their work.
However, many authors allow or even encourage fanfic, maybe because
they enjoy the sincerest flattery or don't want to alienate their
fans.

Is the question whether characters are copyrighted?  In the U. S.,
this appears to depend on their distinctiveness.  In /Nichols v.
Universal Pictures Corporation/ (1930), the author of /Abie's Irish
Rose/ sued Universal over a movie called /The Cohens and Kellys/, also
a comedy about a young Jewish man married to a young Irish Catholic
woman against the wishes of both families.  Learned Hand ruled that
copyright protected more than exact words, but the characters and
situations in /Abie's Irish Rose/ were stock, not individual enough to
be protected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichols_v._Universal_Pictures_Corporation

In /Anderson v. Stallone/ (1989), Anderson wrote a script on spec for /
Rocky IV/ and showed it to Stallone and his associates.  They didn't
buy it, but after /Rocky IV/ came out, Anderson sued on the grounds
that it resembled his script.  The judge ruled that Anderson's script
used Rocky and other characters and their interrelationships, which
were distinctive as defined in /Nichols/.  Therefore it was a
derivative work, and Anderson had infringed on Stallone's copyright,
not the other way around.  (He also ruled that the stories weren't
similar enough to warrant any compensation anyway.)

> You can bet that anyone who sells a Star Trek sequel as a paperback book
> has arranged for permission -- or license, really -- from the studio.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>      episode novelizations based on Star Trek: Deep Space
>      Nine. ...

No doubt about that.

> I assume that all the music "sampling" that has gone on in the last
> decade has been a source of glee for wheelers and dealers in the music
> publishing industry, though I have no idea how much they get when their
> old songs are quoted in new hits. There's an up-front fee, probably,
> plus another based on radio play and recording sales...

Apparently the samplers do pay, though it didn't start out that way.
I have the impression there's no up-front fee for performing someone
else's song, and if so, I'd be surprised if there's one for sampling.

--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman - 04 Feb 2010 05:24 GMT
...

> In /Anderson v. Stallone/ (1989)...

Sorry, I meant to add

http://www.casesofinterest.com/tiki/Anderson+v+Sylvester+Stallone

--
Jerry Friedman
Garrett Wollman - 04 Feb 2010 06:04 GMT
>Apparently the samplers do pay, though it didn't start out that way.
>I have the impression there's no up-front fee for performing someone
>else's song, and if so, I'd be surprised if there's one for sampling.

The trendy NPR arts show "Studio 360" treated this issue a few months
ago.  This issue was litigated, but (as so often happens) settled
before a precedent could be established -- which serves the copyright
industry's interests (and the lawyers' interests) just fine, thank you
very much -- so it's still an open question how samples can be used.

(We should be clear that there are different ways of using samples,
some of which would clearly result in derivative works, and some of
which probably should not.  The interviewee on "Studio 360" made the
point that the legal uncertainty actually forces samplers to create
works that are *more clearly derivative* because music-industry
lawyers understand much better how to deal with the licensing.  The
most creative samplers of the original movement sampled smaller
segments of a far greater number of original works, creating works
which had a much greater claim to originality in their own right.)

-GAWollman
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John Varela - 01 Feb 2010 20:24 GMT
> Some of the defenses of piracy I have read here insist that copying is
> necessary in some way for human progress.  I very much doubt that.

Me too. That argument could just as well be applied to patents. I
wonder how the copyists feel about patent infringement.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Feb 2010 18:17 GMT
>> Some of the defenses of piracy I have read here insist that copying
>> is necessary in some way for human progress.  I very much doubt
>> that.
>
> Me too. That argument could just as well be applied to patents. I
> wonder how the copyists feel about patent infringement.

I'll take "copyists" to refer to those defending the practice in some
circumstances (and not necessarily considering it to be "theft" or
"piracy"), as opposed to those who actually make the copies, who
probably don't own any patents and so don't have any real concern
about patent infringement.

In that sense, I can say that I think that patents and copyrights are
very different notions and have very different implications.  Patents
were instituted as a quid pro quo in order to discourage the retaining
of knowledge as guild or trade secrets.  In most cases, until very
recently (and, to a large extent even today in commercial contexts),
without patent protection, there was no incentive to publish.  Quite
the reverse: the incentive was to hide the invention as much as
possible, and this led to inventions being lost.

But (and here I'll note emphatically, that I am speaking for myself
and not my employer, who may or may not agree with me), I don't
personally think that there's much, if anything, wrong with (strict)
patent infringement solely for personal use and not sold (or
distributed freely) in competition with the patent-owner's product.
If you read a patent for a new kind of washing machine and decide to
put one together in your basement and use it to wash your clothes, I
have no problem with it.  And, indeed, I'd consider a patent poorly
written (and essentially valueless) if it was written such that the
ones who could infringe were non-commercial end users.  You want to
write it so that the infringers are people who make the invention to
sell (or distribute free copies) or who use the invention as an
enabler to do their business (e.g., make their product, perform their
service, or run their business).

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Adam Funk - 02 Feb 2010 20:31 GMT
> But (and here I'll note emphatically, that I am speaking for myself
> and not my employer, who may or may not agree with me), I don't
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> enabler to do their business (e.g., make their product, perform their
> service, or run their business).

From the 17th century until recently, copyrights protected only
authors and restricted in practical terms only publishers (since
printing equipment was expensive and required specialist skills).
From the late 20th century onwards there have been disturbing and
corrupt changes in the laws to give publishers (rather than artists)
benefits to the detriment of the public (rather than publishers).

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John Varela - 04 Feb 2010 17:28 GMT
> In our last episode,
> <02ec528b-1092-45a6-82f4-fb0e1a337a0a@s36g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> were raised by wolves.  But those of us who had mothers know the answer to
> that is "You knew it wasn't yours."

An interesting short video about the pros and cons of file sharing,
produced by the Intellectual Property Institute at the University of
Richmond School of Law:

http://law.richmond.edu/ipi/whatdoyouthink.htm

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Ian Noble - 03 Feb 2010 18:10 GMT
>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>If artists cannot profit from their work, why should they do it at all?  Why
>should they bother to invest the time required to become very good at it?

That's not really a question about art, though, is it? The commercial
answer is, "They shouldn't". The artistic answer is, "If you need to
ask that question, you have no right to call yourself an artist". The
social answer is probably somewhere between the two.

(The question as posed is also, even from a social standpoint,
invalid;  it presupposes that the current approach is (a) working, and
(b) the only one that's capable of working.)

I didn't actually argue one way or the other - merely that there's a
discussion that I strongly believe needs to take place that, as yet
and on the whole, isn't - and that self-serving, simplistic propaganda
of the "copying is theft" sort don't serve that discussion one iota.
Right now, for example, we've got organisations like the RIAA
attempting to equate copying of music, films and the like with theft.
Yet at the same time we've Google ("Don't be Evil!") trying to use its
size to push through the right for it to scan just about anything
that's out there in print and put it up on the net unless the
copyright-holders opt *out*. And we've folk such as Disney pushing for
an extension of copyright lifetime *way* beyond the original, because
they've old works that they're still able to make money from, and the
don't want to lose the income stream. Every one of them has at its
heart the concept of the business (and I stress "the business", not
"the artist" making money from changes to  the way copyright is viewd
and applied. The whole thing is a mess, and having the resolution
dictated by commercial interests with deep pockets is not remotely in
the broader interests of society.

Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Nick - 03 Feb 2010 18:58 GMT
> I didn't actually argue one way or the other - merely that there's a
> discussion that I strongly believe needs to take place that, as yet
> and on the whole, isn't - and that self-serving, simplistic propaganda
> of the "copying is theft" sort don't serve that discussion one iota.

For the record, the only reason I've not joined in is that Ian has
expressed (in this and a previous excellent post) my views far better
than I ever could.
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Richard Bollard - 05 Feb 2010 01:17 GMT
>>> The whole subject of intellectual "property" is, in my opinion
>>> overripe for a broader debate on what society wants and needs from the
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>dictated by commercial interests with deep pockets is not remotely in
>the broader interests of society.

Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
(Kookaburra sits in an old gum tree). The band claim this is
coincidental but they lost. Thing is, the song is so old that it
really has no commercial life of its own. The person who wrote it is
long dead but some mob have the rights and want 60% of the band's
earnings.

Nothing about protecting the struggling artist, who actually wrote the
original song as a competition entry. Perhaps we should also be
discussing whether artistic rights should be handed down to others?


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Peter Moylan - 05 Feb 2010 12:20 GMT
> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> original song as a competition entry. Perhaps we should also be
> discussing whether artistic rights should be handed down to others?

A great deal of what is wrong with copyright law could be fixed by
specifying that copyright can be held only by the original author. The
notion that a corporation can own copyright over a work that that
corporation did not compose is obscene.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 05 Feb 2010 13:03 GMT
>> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
>> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>notion that a corporation can own copyright over a work that that
>corporation did not compose is obscene.

But what happens when an author is prepared to accept, or needs, a lump
sum of money "now" rather than wait for the royalties to dribble in?
Should he or she be barred from selling the copyright to a person or
corporation who is prepared to invest by buying the copyright?

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John Varela - 05 Feb 2010 18:58 GMT
> >> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
> >> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Should he or she be barred from selling the copyright to a person or
> corporation who is prepared to invest by buying the copyright?

And why shouldn't the widow and orphaned children inherit?

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franzi - 05 Feb 2010 22:31 GMT
> > >> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
> > >> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> And why shouldn't the widow and orphaned children inherit?

And why shouldn't the rich rentier landlord inherit, if he is named in
the will? These are aspects of the general problem of testation, if
that is a recognised word.

Once a man is dead, why should his wishes in respect of his former
property be respected? The answer is that someone has to take up the
ownership, and leaving it to the previous owner to decide is as good a
system as any. Devolution of copyright is no different in principle to
the passage of real property ownership. Once society grants a right of
ownership, whether with a certain or indefinite duration, the right
must belong to someone until it expires.

Prolongation of the right until 75 years after death is absurd. Does
anyone disagree?
--
franzi
Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Feb 2010 01:52 GMT
> Once a man is dead, why should his wishes in respect of his former
> property be respected? The answer is that someone has to take up the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Prolongation of the right until 75 years after death is absurd. Does
> anyone disagree?

While it seems excessive to me, I don't think it's absurd.  Death plus
75 years sounds like an approximation to something like "the life of
the author and the authors' children, if he drops dead leaving young
children".  I.e., you can't take it away from him and you're very
unlikely to take it away from his immediate family.

Once you've decided that it should be bounded but last at least as the
rest of his life, it makes as much sense as any other scheme.

I'm of two minds on the issue.  On the one hand, it seems a bit
strange to take away property just because time has passed, out of
some notion of "the public should get it now".  It seems as though
eminent domain should apply here and there should be some mechanism
for people to petition for a work to be placed in the public domain
(perhaps after some minimum period of time), with "just compensation"
reasonably established.  And if nobody does this, the rights remain
with the holder indefinitely.

On the other hand, it seems reasonable that copyright be looked at
more as a grant than a thing, in which case limiting it seems
reasonable, but it would make more sense to simply give it a fixed
term, like patents, but a bit longer, say fifty or seventy-five
years.

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J. J. Lodder - 06 Feb 2010 08:54 GMT
> > Once a man is dead, why should his wishes in respect of his former
> > property be respected? The answer is that someone has to take up the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> reasonably established.  And if nobody does this, the rights remain
> with the holder indefinitely.

You give the solution yourself:
copyright isn't a property, it is a right.
The society that grants the right can take it away,
in accordance with rules it sees as just in some way.

> On the other hand, it seems reasonable that copyright be looked at
> more as a grant than a thing, in which case limiting it seems
> reasonable, but it would make more sense to simply give it a fixed
> term, like patents, but a bit longer, say fifty or seventy-five
> years.

Other societies have other rules.
In Fance for example, those 'mort pour la patrie' get extra time.
(25 years iirc)
Moreover, counting stops for the years in which France is at war,
since it is deemed to be impossible to properly exploit the works
under the curcumstances.

Jan
Mark Brader - 08 Feb 2010 06:11 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
> more sense to simply give it a fixed term, like patents, but a bit
> longer, say fifty or seventy-five years.

That is certainly my view.  For many years the US was happy with a
limit of 56 years, and I think that's just about right.
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Adam Funk - 08 Feb 2010 19:54 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That is certainly my view.  For many years the US was happy with a
> limit of 56 years, and I think that's just about right.

I think it was 28 years with one renewal opportunity; I suspect that
required the author to be alive in order to renew it.

The original British copyright law provided a term of 14 years with
one renewal.

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Mark Brader - 08 Feb 2010 20:28 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
>>> more sense to simply give it a fixed term, like patents, but a bit
>>> longer, say fifty or seventy-five years.

Mark Brader:
>> That is certainly my view.  For many years the US was happy with a
>> limit of 56 years, and I think that's just about right.

Adam Funk:
> I think it was 28 years with one renewal opportunity; I suspect that
> required the author to be alive in order to renew it.

No, it was the copyright owner, of course.
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Adam Funk - 08 Feb 2010 20:59 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>>> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> No, it was the copyright owner, of course.

Too bad.

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Mark Brader - 08 Feb 2010 21:02 GMT
Adam Funk:
> Too bad.

Sheesh.
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Adam Funk - 10 Feb 2010 11:34 GMT
> Adam Funk:
>> Too bad.
>
> Sheesh.

The proper purpose of copyright is to encourage authors by giving them
some benefit at the expense of publishers, not to help publishers at
the expense of the public.

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Peter Moylan - 08 Feb 2010 21:33 GMT
>> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The original British copyright law provided a term of 14 years with
> one renewal.

Right. And who pushed through the major extensions of term? It appears
to have been the vultures rather than the artists.

Our choir sings a slightly unusual arrangement of "Waltzing Matilda"
that some regard as our signature tune. We used to think that the music,
by a long-dead arranger, was in the public domain. Last year we
discovered that the copyright was held by a US company, and that we were
about to get into deep trouble unless we destroyed our sheet music.

In an attempt to be legal, we decided to buy fresh copies of the sheet
music. It turns out, though, that it has been out of print for umpteen
years. We have now graciously been permitted to make photocopies of our
one ratty and almost unreadable old copy, in the wrong key, and pay
$5/copy. (Plus whatever it costs us for the photocopying.) Meanwhile, we
have to destroy the more readable arrangements that we prepared for
ourselves, because of the poor readability of the original, some time
ago. How is this supposed to encourage composers to produce new works,
which was the whole original point of copyright laws?

Personally, I see this as suppression of a patriotic tune by a hostile
foreign power. Death to Mickey Mouse!

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tony cooper - 08 Feb 2010 22:05 GMT
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>>>> ... in which case limiting it seems reasonable, but it would make
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>Personally, I see this as suppression of a patriotic tune by a hostile
>foreign power. Death to Mickey Mouse!

You must be talking about Carl Fischer's copyright of Marie Cowan's
version.  That's the one that required payment for the use of the song
in the Atlanta Olympics.  That copyright expires in 2011, so 'ang in,
mate.

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Peter Moylan - 09 Feb 2010 06:51 GMT
>> Our choir sings a slightly unusual arrangement of "Waltzing Matilda"
>
> You must be talking about Carl Fischer's copyright of Marie Cowan's
> version.  That's the one that required payment for the use of the song
> in the Atlanta Olympics.  That copyright expires in 2011, so 'ang in,
> mate.

I didn't realise the expiry date was so close.

By coincidence, at the choir's AGM last night I was elected to the
committee. (Not to be confused with The Committee.) It pleases me
greatly to be able to pass this on to the other committee members.

Thank you muchly.

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Adam Funk - 09 Feb 2010 13:14 GMT
>>Right. And who pushed through the major extensions of term? It appears
>>to have been the vultures rather than the artists.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> in the Atlanta Olympics.  That copyright expires in 2011, so 'ang in,
> mate.

But for how long has it been impossible to get good, legal copies?  

If the artist is dead, and the copyright owner isn't willing to
publish the work on reasonable terms, then the copyright is harming
the public good *and* failing to provide any benefit for the author.
In such a case, the law should stipulate the cancellation of the
copyright.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Feb 2010 13:49 GMT
>>>Right. And who pushed through the major extensions of term? It appears
>>>to have been the vultures rather than the artists.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>In such a case, the law should stipulate the cancellation of the
>copyright.

I have great sympathy with that idea. "Copy-right" should carry with it
"Copy-duty".

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John Varela - 09 Feb 2010 23:01 GMT
> >If the artist is dead, and the copyright owner isn't willing to
> >publish the work on reasonable terms, then the copyright is harming
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have great sympathy with that idea. "Copy-right" should carry with it
> "Copy-duty".

My wife collects the works of Wallace Stegner. There is one early
work (/Fire and Ice/?) that she can't get, or at least is unwilling
to pay the price for, because there are no recent editions and the
old edition(s), having sold poorly, are rare. Stegner wouldn't let
it be republished, evidently because he was embarrassed by this
early work. Stegner is dead, but the book is still not available.

Assuming that the reason it's unavailable is that the heirs are
honoring the author's wishes, I see nothing wrong with that. (Of
course it could simply be that it's expected that any republication
would be a money-loser. If so, then it might become available on
Kindle. That doesn't help the book collector.)

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Paul Wolff - 08 Feb 2010 23:26 GMT
>Adam Funk wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Right. And who pushed through the major extensions of term? It appears
>to have been the vultures rather than the artists.

"Interested parties" is the usual term. I recall that Mr Cliff Richard
was reportedly peeved because "Livin' Doll" was at risk of becoming
copyright free after he'd benefited from only 50 years exclusive income
for a three-minute sing-song (I may have the details wrong, sorry Sir
Cliff, but the idea's the important thing).

>Our choir sings a slightly unusual arrangement of "Waltzing Matilda"
>that some regard as our signature tune. We used to think that the music,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>ago. How is this supposed to encourage composers to produce new works,
>which was the whole original point of copyright laws?

I'm not sure that[1] the whole original point was to encourage authors
to authorise, or composers to compose. That was only a supplementary
object. The first stated purpose was to prevent others printing authors'
books to the detriment and often to the ruin of the authors and their
families.

There is an alleged human rights principle at work in the twentieth
century, and set out by the United Nations, though why united nations
should think it their purpose to get involved in this I'm not sure. At
any rate, there's a UN Declaration of Human Rights as set out at
<http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html> from which I take Art. 27:

Article 27

1.      Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural
       life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in
       scientific advancement and its benefits.

2.      Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and
       material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or
       artistic production of which he is the author.

That Art. 27(2) gives you a plain statement that the authors of artistic
productions have the essential right, as yuman beans, that their moral
and material interests therein be protected. There's nothing there about
encouragement. It's a statement that he who creates something, owns the
property in it. We generally acknowledge that to be true for brickworks
and chocolate factories, as doubtless we once did for knappers and their
flints, where the products belong to the producers, and here it is
asserted to be true for artistic productions (music, drawings,
literature) as well.

>Personally, I see this as suppression of a patriotic tune by a hostile
>foreign power. Death to Mickey Mouse!

He does not die, he only sleeps. When the Nation stands in peril, Mickey
will awaken from his slumbers and stand fearless once again,
all-powerful, with his boring eyes and his steamboat willie.

[1] BrE polite form of "No it wasn't".
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J. J. Lodder - 09 Feb 2010 08:18 GMT
> >Adam Funk wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> asserted to be true for artistic productions (music, drawings,
> literature) as well.

Not a word about property here.
It's all about rights,

Jan
Paul Wolff - 09 Feb 2010 09:42 GMT
>Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Not a word about property here.
>It's all about rights,

That's true as a matter of words. But how does a right to the protection
of a person's moral and material interests in a production of theirs
differ from a right of property in it? Intellectual property is always
about intangible rights. The property is in the right. A patent was
explicitly stated to be a 'chose in action' in previous British
legislation, where 'chose' is taken from old French (Anglo-Norman law, I
suppose) and has nothing much to do with a choice.
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Adam Funk - 09 Feb 2010 21:17 GMT
> I'm not sure that[1] the whole original point was to encourage authors
> to authorise, or composers to compose. That was only a supplementary
> object. The first stated purpose was to prevent others printing authors'
> books to the detriment and often to the ruin of the authors and their
> families.

> [1] BrE polite form of "No it wasn't".

Oh, yes it was!

> There is an alleged human rights principle at work in the twentieth
> century, and set out by the United Nations, though why united nations
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> asserted to be true for artistic productions (music, drawings,
> literature) as well.

Article 27(1), OTOH, emphasizes the public's rights.  Ideas are
inherently different from bricks and machines, because

  No one possesses the less because everyone possesses the whole of
  it.  He who receives an idea from me receives it without lessening
  me, as he who lights his candle at mine receives light without
  darkening me.

(Thomas Jefferson)

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tony cooper - 05 Feb 2010 13:52 GMT
>> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
>> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>notion that a corporation can own copyright over a work that that
>corporation did not compose is obscene.

What if something is created by a person who dies at a young age?
Should his family not be able to benefit from the work?

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James Silverton - 05 Feb 2010 15:08 GMT
tony  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:52:32 -0500:

>>> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work
>>> - Down Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> copyright over a work that that corporation did not compose
>> is obscene.

> What if something is created by a person who dies at a young
> age? Should his family not be able to benefit from the work?

Yes, but a duration of copyright of 75 years with no extensions should
suffice in all practical circumstances.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 05 Feb 2010 15:48 GMT
> tony  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:52:32 -0500:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Yes, but a duration of copyright of 75 years with no extensions should
>suffice in all practical circumstances.

Part of the difficulty with many people's attitude to copyright and
other IPR royalties is that the "ordinary citizen" is paid when working
and not paid when not working. This is totally different from the
earning of money from IPRs. An author may work for a period of days,
months or years and then stop. Some songwriters have rattled off a new
song (music and lyrics) in a matter of hours or even minutes that then
becomes a hit and a classic. He or she can continue to "earn" even if
doing nothing productive ever again. This is totally alien to the person
who has to continue working to continue getting an income. And, of
course, such a person cannot work for a living when dead.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

James Silverton - 06 Feb 2010 02:17 GMT
Peter  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000:

>> tony  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:52:32 -0500:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> Yes, but a duration of copyright of 75 years with no
>> extensions should suffice in all practical circumstances.

> Part of the difficulty with many people's attitude to
> copyright and other IPR royalties is that the "ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> getting an income. And, of course, such a person cannot work
> for a living when dead.

Not everyone believes that there is an entrenched human right to pass on
property or wealth to one's descendants. Despite sentiments about
"family farms" etc., I don't think the Constitution guarantees that
people should escape estate taxes and establish a hereditary
aristocracy.

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Cheryl - 06 Feb 2010 11:09 GMT
> Peter  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> "family farms" etc., I don't think the Constitution guarantees that
> people should escape estate taxes and establish a hereditary aristocracy.

I'm not sure how strong these ideas are - or that many people see a
connection between inheriting a bit from their parents and establishing
an hereditary aristocracy. A lot of people of very modest means will go
to considerable lengths to leave a little bit to help out their children
or grandchildren, particularly if the alternative is that the government
(aka the people in general, or total strangers) might benefit instead.
And many an adult child considers himself entirely entitled to the
benefits of his parents' work - sometimes even at the expense of the
parents while they are still alive, but that's a bit of a digression.

The idea that you benefit from someone else's labour underlies
everything from the structure and purpose of the family to investment in
business; from children being supported financially by their parents
through grandparents helping out struggling children, putting up the
money for a relative or friend's new business to buying stocks in major
companies.

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Cheryl

James Silverton - 07 Feb 2010 16:36 GMT
>> Peter  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> up the money for a relative or friend's new business to buying stocks
> in major companies.

I don't object to parents' educating their children as well as possible
and also making gifts to start them in trades or professions (or any
other purposes). Neither do I object to grandparents doing the same. I
just oppose the notion  that there is any entrenched right for children
to receive their parents wealth at death.

Signature

Jim Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Cheryl - 07 Feb 2010 17:15 GMT
>>> Peter  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> just oppose the notion  that there is any entrenched right for children
> to receive their parents wealth at death.

There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
except I think there might be a moral case for parents to provide
support to disabled children throughout life if they are can afford to.
 Parents can blow it all on holidays or leave it all to the local cats'
shelter if they want. But many of them really want to leave something,
even a little something, to their children.

And I have a vague idea that if you die with children who are underage
at the time, and you have some assets, some proportion of those assets
are expected to be left to the surviving spouse (if any) and underaged
children. I have no idea what the law is on this (and suspect whatever
it is, it varies by jurisdiction), but I think it is rather assumed that
underaged children be supported.

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Cheryl

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 18:23 GMT
> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,

There is in France.  It's quite difficult not to leave property (houses,
land) to your children.  this is why there are so many derelict houses
in rural France.  After three or four generations, the property is owned
in different measures by dozens of distant cousins.

It's assumed that married couples own half their house each, so after
the first death, half belongs to the children.  We had to go to a French
Notaire and adopt a different type of marriage contract under which
property is assumed to be jointly owned.

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David

Robin Bignall - 07 Feb 2010 21:20 GMT
>> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Notaire and adopt a different type of marriage contract under which
>property is assumed to be jointly owned.

Did you really mean "marriage contract"?  I assume you were married in
the UK before you bought your French properties.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 22:44 GMT
>>> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Did you really mean "marriage contract"?  I assume you were married in
> the UK before you bought your French properties.

Yes.  My comment was short hand.  As I understand it, there are several
different types of French marriage contract "regimes".  Two are as I
described above (all property owned half each; all property owned
jointly) but I don't know what the others are.

UK marriages are assumed by French law to be of the first type, which
is, I think, the normal contract for French people.  Before we bought
any of our properties, we were advised to "adopt" a French marriage
contract of the second type.  We could have done this by popping down to
the Mairie and "getting married" again in France, but the timing was
inconvenient, so we actually went to a French Notaire who works in
Manchester and agreed in front of him that we wished to "amend" our UK
marriage contract to have the second form for French legal purposes.  I
think it cost a couple of hundred pounds and it only took half an hour
on the day, although there was some earlier correspondence.  We have an
original certificate and a number of certified copies which we have to
provide to the legal people when we buy a property.

Ah, yes, here's a description:
http://www.france-property-and-information.com/marriage.htm

We adopted the Marital Regime of "Communauté Universelle".  The default
position is "En Indivision".

Signature

David

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Feb 2010 22:58 GMT
>>>> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>We adopted the Marital Regime of "Communauté Universelle".  The default
>position is "En Indivision".

I notice that the section headings use "Martial Regime:" in all four
cases.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 23:01 GMT
>> UK marriages are assumed by French law to be of the first type, which
>> is, I think, the normal contract for French people.  Before we bought
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I notice that the section headings use "Martial Regime:" in all four
> cases.

Yes indeed <smile>.  I cut and pasted the names of the regimes, but
spotted it.

Signature

David

John Varela - 08 Feb 2010 18:29 GMT
> We adopted the Marital Regime of "Communauté Universelle".

Same as "community property", no doubt. Louisiana's laws originated
in France. When my mother died, I was a minor. As I recall, those
things that were my mother's before she married were inherited by
me, and those things acquired after the marriage were community
property inherited by my father.

Lawyer Bob can explain.

Signature

John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

Robert Lieblich - 08 Feb 2010 19:37 GMT
> > We adopted the Marital Regime of "Communauté Universelle".
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Lawyer Bob can explain.

No, actually I can't.  Most American jurisdictions that have community
property laws have modified them by statute so that they bear
somewhere between some and very little resemblance to those in
countries whose legal systems descend from Roman law.  I used to know
a wee bit about California's, but I've forgotten most of that, and I
doubt that the few fragments I retain would be of much help.  What
John describes sounds to me like what I vaguely remember, but that's
about all I can "explain."  No doubt there's info on the Web for those
seeking it.

[I note that John seems marooned at home by the weather.  Where I live
it's possible to get out and actually drive around, but there's little
purpose to doing so.  Okay, I drove Mrs. Bob to her office this
morning, but it took almost half an hour each way for a trip that
usually requires less than half of that.  Unless I have to go pick her
up (she may be able to share a ride back), I'm going nowhere today.  I
think I could have driven to my office, but that puts me in a small
minority of all feds who work in DC and close vicinity, and Uncle Sam
wisely shut down today.  Tomorrow, with another six inches of or more
due in the afternoon, they'll probably declare the Govt open and
charge leave to the 95% of us who stay home.]

Signature

Bob Lieblich
And his rum toddy

John Varela - 08 Feb 2010 21:47 GMT
> [I note that John seems marooned at home by the weather.  Where I live

Amazingly, our street was plowed sometime Saturday night. Only one
lane wide, but sufficient. On Saturday evening I had dug a path
about 60 feet long and 18 inches wide from our front door to a rut
in the street so we could get out in an emergency. Sunday morning I
looked at the over two feet of snow in the driveway and decided I'm
just too old to tackle that, especially since the plow had thrown up
a three-foot berm of compacted snow and ice. Happily, three hispanic
guys came by with shovels and dug out the driveway for $100. They
made a pretty penny, I'm sure. One of them broke his shovel so I
leant him one of mine, which he dutifully returned at the end of the
day. This (Monday) morning we ventured out in the Subaru to the
Safeway at Chesterbrook and back. Some shelves were empty and the
ATM was broken.

> it's possible to get out and actually drive around, but there's little
> purpose to doing so.  Okay, I drove Mrs. Bob to her office this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> due in the afternoon, they'll probably declare the Govt open and
> charge leave to the 95% of us who stay home.]

I've put some pictures of our two weekend snow storms at

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yhuoal2

Signature

John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Feb 2010 00:53 GMT
>I've put some pictures of our two weekend snow storms at
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/yhuoal2

Belatedly - Very impressive pictures. Thanks.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Berkeley Brett - 12 Feb 2010 08:58 GMT
On Feb 11, 4:53 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >I've put some pictures of our two weekend snow storms at
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Peter Duncanson, UK
> (in alt.usage.english)

Those are very impressive pictures -- they remind me of my childhood
in Michigan.

If that link to Mr. Varela's pictures doesn't work for you, the
"regular" TinyURL link should work:

http://www.tinyurl.com/yhuoal2

Best wishes....

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.electoralmaps.org/
Pictorial election results for every U.S. Presidential Election from
George Washington to Barack Obama.
John Varela - 12 Feb 2010 20:49 GMT
> On Feb 11, 4:53 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> If that link to Mr. Varela's pictures doesn't work for you, the
> "regular" TinyURL link should work:

Is anyone having a problem with the preview link?

> http://www.tinyurl.com/yhuoal2
>
> Best wishes....

The above were from the snow storms we experienced on Wednesday, 3
Feb and Saturday, 6 Feb. As you may know, we had a third storm on
Wednesday, 10 Feb, which brought the snowfall this winter to the
highest on record for the DC area. I've added some photos from after
the third storm.

Signature

John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 Feb 2010 22:33 GMT
>> On Feb 11, 4:53 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Is anyone having a problem with the preview link?

Not me.

>> http://www.tinyurl.com/yhuoal2
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>highest on record for the DC area. I've added some photos from after
>the third storm.

Thanks. Even more impressive.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robin Bignall - 08 Feb 2010 21:33 GMT
>>>> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>We adopted the Marital Regime of "Communauté Universelle".  The default
>position is "En Indivision".

Thanks.  The only method I had heard of was the SCI (private property
company) route.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

the Omrud - 09 Feb 2010 09:07 GMT
>>>>> There isn't a 'right' for adult children to inherit, as far as I know,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Thanks.  The only method I had heard of was the SCI (private property
> company) route.

For some reason, the adoption of a different marital regime was almost
entirely unknown by UK advisors 10 years ago - I discovered it myself by
research, but our British estate agents in France hadn't been aware of it.

There's something else called "en tontine" which I can't remember much
about now.  I know I was convinced that the separate regime was a better
solution.

Signature

David

Paul Wolff - 09 Feb 2010 09:50 GMT
>On 08/02/2010 21:33, Robin Bignall wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:44:41 GMT, the Omrud
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>about now.  I know I was convinced that the separate regime was a
>better solution.

A tontine scheme is one in which the last survivor wins the pool, isn't
it? Presumably in the case of two co-owners, the whole property
automatically vests in the other when the first one dies. It seems
similar to joint tenancy in English property law, if so.
Signature

Paul

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Feb 2010 11:51 GMT
>>On 08/02/2010 21:33, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:44:41 GMT, the Omrud
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>automatically vests in the other when the first one dies. It seems
>similar to joint tenancy in English property law, if so.

Tontine? ... Images from a movie and British voices drift into my mind
...

Ah, yes.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061204/plotsummary

   Plot Summary for
   The Wrong Box (1966)

   A tontine is established for a dozen children, a tontine being a
   kind of bet/insurance, money is put in for each to grow with
   interest and the last survivor is to get the lot. We watch the group
   dwindle until only two brothers are left. One brother is watched by
   his nephews who will keep him alive at all costs, the other lives in
   ill health and poverty as the only support of his fairly stupid
   grandson. Statues and bodies are switched, in the wrong boxes until
   everyone is sure someone has died. Now if they can only make it seem
   as if the other brother died first, hundreds of thousands of pounds
   (in Victorian England when a pound was a pound) will be theirs.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick - 20 Feb 2010 08:44 GMT
> For some reason, the adoption of a different marital regime was almost
> entirely unknown by UK advisors 10 years ago - I discovered it myself
> by research, but our British estate agents in France hadn't been aware
> of it.

That's estate agents for you: "Once a week, after Match Of The Day".
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James Silverton - 07 Feb 2010 18:39 GMT
Cheryl  wrote  on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 13:45:39 -0330:

>>>> Peter  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> of them really want to leave something, even a little
> something, to their children.

> And I have a vague idea that if you die with children who are underage
> at the time, and you have some assets, some
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> varies by jurisdiction), but I think it is rather assumed that
> underaged children be supported.

I think most people would leave some of their property to diependent
children and I would agree to special or zero estate taxes there. The
same would apply to a spouse but, generally, not beyond that, in my
opinion of course. In the case where one dies intestate, the law might
reasonably let a spouse or children inherit but I don't favor long lists
of distant relatives.

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

J. J. Lodder - 06 Feb 2010 08:54 GMT
> > tony  wrote  on Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:52:32 -0500:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> who has to continue working to continue getting an income. And, of
> course, such a person cannot work for a living when dead.

OTOH also the Anerican people seems quite comfortable
with the notion that one may possess shares, bonds, etc.,
from wich income may be derived.
Copyright shouldn't be a giant leap of the imagination,

Jan
Donna Richoux - 05 Feb 2010 14:16 GMT
> > Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
> > Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> A great deal of what is wrong with copyright law could be fixed by
> specifying that copyright can be held only by the original author.

What if the successful author dies young, leaving a spouse, small
children, and aging parents? Why shouldn't the fees go to them? And then
where do you draw the line?

>The
> notion that a corporation can own copyright over a work that that
> corporation did not compose is obscene.

Wikipedia says:

One Sunday morning in church, in 1932, Marion Sinclair had a sudden
inspiration, and dashed home to write the words down. "Kookaburra" was
entered in 1934 into a competition run by the Girl Guides Association of
Victoria, with the rights of the winning song to be sold to raise money
for the purchase of a camping ground, eventually chosen as Britannia
Park. ...

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Peter Moylan - 05 Feb 2010 21:38 GMT
>>> Just yesterday a decision was handed down in the Men At Work - Down
>>> Under case. There is a riff in the music that evokes an old song
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> children, and aging parents? Why shouldn't the fees go to them? And then
> where do you draw the line?

OK, let the copyright persist until the author would have reached the
age of 80, had he lived.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

R H Draney - 05 Feb 2010 21:41 GMT
Peter Moylan filted:

>>>> Nothing about protecting the struggling artist, who actually wrote the
>>>> original song as a competition entry. Perhaps we should also be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>OK, let the copyright persist until the author would have reached the
>age of 80, had he lived.

How about all those 81-year-old songwriters?...r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

franzi - 05 Feb 2010 22:32 GMT
> Peter Moylan filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> How about all those 81-year-old songwriters?...r

They're all deaf, and won't notice.
--
franzi
John Holmes - 07 Feb 2010 08:40 GMT
> Wikipedia says:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> money for the purchase of a camping ground, eventually chosen as
> Britannia Park. ...

Wikipedia is wrong. The rights were not sold. They were held by Marion
Sinclair until her death, whereupon they were passed to, I think, the
state library. Larrikin Music bought them from the library for a few
thousand dollars.

However, the link with fundraising for the guides was that the song was
sung at fundraising concerts.

See:
http://www.guidesvic.org.au/_uploads/12241GV_GMatters_MARCH_08_WEB_VERSION.pdf
(which was written by the GG archivist before all of this controversy
erupted).

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Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 07 Feb 2010 14:50 GMT
> > Wikipedia says:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> (which was written by the GG archivist before all of this controversy
> erupted).

Unless I'm missing something, that link actually supports Wikipedia's
quoted wording:

"The song was written in in 1934 when the Girl Guide Association of
Victoria held a competition for a typically Australian round, which
would be sold as part of a big fundraising campaign, to buy a camping
area at Britannia Creek.  KOOKABURRA, the winning entry, was first
sung at the 1934 Scout Jamboree at Frankston, Victoria and has, since
then, won worldwide recognition and has been translated into many
languages".

Both seem to mean that the song was entered (and won) a competition
where the winning song was to be sold to buy a camping area.

That sale (as you note) never wound up happening, as recent court
cases have shown.  Wikipedia goes on to say "While the song is still
under copyright according to Australian copyright law, Marion Sinclair
died in 1988, and so the publishing rights are held by Larrikin Music.
In the United States, the rights are administered by Music Sales
Corporation in New York City." but says nothing about how that came to
pass.
Paul Wolff - 31 Jan 2010 22:54 GMT
>The conflation of copyright infringement and theft is propaganda, pure
>and simple. It is notable that the usage comes almost entirely from
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>The whole concept of copyright is a very modern and artificial one.
>The first real copyright act wasn't until 1709 (UK, Statue of Anne),

And a monumental piece of legislation it was.

>and the concept wasn't established internationally until as late as
>1886 (the Berne Convention) - within my own grandfather's lifetime.
>It's also very much a technical, social-engineering concept - give the
>creator of a work a protected period in which to profit from that
>creation, without depriving society as a whole of its benefits in the
>longer run.

I don't think it is technical socio-engineering (where's Vinny?). I
think it is simple recognition that it is grossly unfair to artists and
authors that when they create a work of literature or art valued by
others, they should get not a bean of reward from its multiplication and
acquisition by the rest of the world.

>It's emphatically *not* been a concept that copying itself
>is wrong or even remotely undesirable (something that is demonstrably
>and emphatically not true; the whole concept of human culture is
>defined by and underpinned by shared - i.e. imitated and copied -
>values and behaviours).

That is why copyright is limited to certain classes of work, and limited
in time. The legislation tried to strike a fair balance.

But there remains the problem of people persuading themselves that they
need not obey the law. When it becomes acceptable among elements of our
society for a clear law to be ignored, there may be no adverse
consequence if no-one has any interest in maintaining an obsolete piece
of legislation. If an old unrepealed law decrees that all burghers must
report to St Mary's Butts for archery practice on Sunday afternoons, we
just say how quaint it is, and move on. But if the law has direct
relevance to modern life, and is known to be contentious, and has
economic value to one group and economic disadvantage to another, then
it is a bad move to ignore its breaches. Either the law should be
rigorously enforced as it is, or it should be reconsidered and amended
and then enforced as amended.

It's socially undesirable to allow that laws governing citizens' rights
as between each other may be freely observed or disregarded according to
the viewpoint of each citizen independently. It creates legal
relativism, and moral relativism is bad enough. Laws governing relations
between citizens which have become voluntary are a dangerous precedent.
No honest man gains from a perception that laws need not be obeyed. If I
may ignore this law, why may I not ignore the others that inconvenience
me?

>As for the specifics of music copying - it's a complex subject, but
>the detail, when examined independently, has not tended to bear out
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>in showing that unauthorised** copying *increases*, rather than
>decreases, music sales.

Naturally: someone has to go out and buy the first copy to be
multiplied.

>And very recent figures issued by the record
>industry itself show that, far from being mere thieving leechers, file
>sharers on average spend a third *more* on music than non-sharers, and
>are *twice* as likely to subscribe to paid download services.

So, they are into file distribution big-time. Bona fide retailers no
doubt spend even more on music supplies than file-sharers do.

>None of
>which will stop the big media companies from spending large sums each
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>offense actually took place. In the case of music downloading there
>have been almost no such findings.]

Let's say it's tortious then. The correct legal label is the subject of
this thread, I know. Copyright infringement isn't theft, but it is
arguably stealing, in an English-language sort of way.

>It's unclear whether or not, in the age of the internet as it is
>developing, there actually exist any business models which will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>law - but sadly, it's hard to see that happening in the current
>climate.

Oh, I think that the debate rumbles ever on. I can't remember a time
when someone wasn't examining the subject. Professor Christine
Greenhalgh immediately comes to mind, but that's just because of a weak
connection I have.
<http://www.spc.ox.ac.uk/Staff/69/Staff.html?StaffId=44>
There are many others working on the subject.
Signature

Paul

Adam Funk - 02 Feb 2010 20:25 GMT
>>and the concept wasn't established internationally until as late as
>>1886 (the Berne Convention) - within my own grandfather's lifetime.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> others, they should get not a bean of reward from its multiplication and
> acquisition by the rest of the world.

Copyright law is a trade-off between the public's natural right to
copy (which copyright restricts) and state-granted benefits to artists
(who are thus encouraged to produce more work than they might have
done otherwise).  (In the absence of copyright law, everything is in
the public domain and available for free re-use and maximal
circulation.)

In other words, imposing restrictions on duplicating, performing and
modifying ("derivative works") creative works that already exist (1)
reduces the public good, but (2) can also increase the public good by
motivating artists to create more works that will end up in the public
domain in the long term.  Copyright law must be judged according to
the extent to which the benefit (2) exceeds the loss (1).

Extending the duration of copyrights on works that have already been
created is fundamentally wrong: the state is throwing away a bit of
the public good and getting nothing for the public in return.

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I put bomb in squirrel's briefcase and who gets blown up? Me!

Berkeley Brett - 03 Feb 2010 16:13 GMT
For what it's worth, here's the Wikipedia article on the [U.S.]
"Digital Millennium Copyright Act":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

=== begin quoted text ===

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States
copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World
Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). It criminalizes production
and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to
circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or
DRM) that control access to copyrighted works. It also criminalizes
the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is
actual infringement of copyright itself. In addition, the DMCA
heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet.
Passed on October 12, 1998 by a unanimous vote in the United States
Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 28,
1998, the DMCA amended Title 17 of the United States Code to extend
the reach of copyright, while limiting the liability of the providers
of on-line services for copyright infringement by their users....
[more in the article]

=== end quoted text ===

Here's Wikipedia on the European Union's "EU Copyright
Directive" (EUCD):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive

=== begin quoted text ===

[numeric references in the article]

The Copyright Directive (officially the Directive 2001/29/EC of the
European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the
harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in
the information society and sometimes known as the Information Society
Directive), is a directive of the European Union enacted to implement
the WIPO Copyright Treaty, to which the European Union is a party.[1]
It was enacted under the internal market provisions of the Treaty of
Rome.

A highly controversial Directive, it was, at the time, the most
heavily lobbied measure to pass the European Parliament.[2] In its
final form, it included only very narrow exceptions to anti-
circumvention measures[3] and exclusive rights. As a result, it is
often regarded by the academic community as a victory for copyright-
owning interests (publishing, film, music and major software
companies) over content users' interests. [4] ... [more in the
article]

=== end quoted text ===

Here is Wikipedia on "copyleft" (as distinguished from "copyright"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

=== begin quoted text ===

Copyleft is a play on the word copyright to describe the practice of
using copyright law to remove restrictions on distributing copies and
modified versions of a work for others and requiring that the same
freedoms be preserved in modified versions.

Copyleft is a form of licensing and can be used for modifying
copyrights for works such as computer software, documents, music and
art. In general, copyright law allows an author to prohibit others
from reproducing, adapting, or distributing copies of the author's
work. In contrast, an author may, through a copyleft licensing scheme,
give every person who receives a copy of a work permission to
reproduce, adapt or distribute the work as long as any resulting
copies or adaptations are also bound by the same copyleft licensing
scheme. The GNU General Public License, originally written by Richard
Stallman, was the first copyleft license to see extensive use, and
continues to dominate the licensing of copylefted software. Creative
Commons, a non-profit organization founded by Lawrence Lessig,
provides a similar license called ShareAlike.... [more in the article]

=== end quoted text ===

And here's Wikipedia on "copyright":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

=== begin quoted text ===

Copyright are the exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of
an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt
the work. Copyright lasts for a certain time period after which the
work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to a wide
range of works that are substantive and fixed in a medium. Some
jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work,
such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described
under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and
trademarks.

The modern concept of copyright originates with the Statute of Anne
(1710) in Great Britain, although the earliest recorded ruling on
basic copyright in literature derives over a thousand years before
then from the ancient Brehon laws of Ireland. An example of the intent
of modern copyright, as expressed in the United States Constitution,
is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing
for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to
their respective Writings and Discoveries."[1] ... [more in the
article, along with numeric reference]

=== end quoted text ===

And here's the article on the "public domain" (along with the
significance of the date January 1, 1923 in the U.S.):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

=== begin quoted text ===

The public domain is an intellectual property designation for the
range of content that is not owned or controlled by anyone. These
materials are "public property", and available for anyone to use
freely for any purpose. The public domain can be defined in contrast
to several forms of intellectual property; the public domain in
contrast to copyrighted works is different from the public domain in
contrast to trademarks or patented works. Furthermore, the laws of
various countries define the scope of the public domain differently,
making it necessary to specify which jurisdiction's public domain is
being discussed.

=== end quoted text ===

Ah, Wikipedia -- what would we do without thee?

(Isn't Wikipedia a good case of Voltaire's notion (paraphrased), "Let
not the perfect become the enemy of the good"?  I've often said,
"Wikipedia knows everything, but it knows some things wrongly."  It's
certainly not perfect.  (I've made many edits to Wikipedia myself,
which certainly deprives it of perfection.)  The famous comparison in
the journal Nature between Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica
( http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html )
suggests that Wikipedia compares quite favorably to Britannica, but
this opinion is controversial.  In any case, I digress....)

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.100bestwebsites.org/
"The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites
Berkeley Brett - 10 Feb 2010 19:35 GMT
Incidentally, if you are unfamiliar with the thinking of the political
philosopher John Rawls, you might find this thinking on the topic of
ownership of property relevant.

I think it is widely believed (at least among academics) that (the
late Harvard Professor) Rawls is perhaps the most influential
political philosopher of the late 20th century.  Within the American
political spectrum, both Democrats and Republicans often claim to be
the true "Rawlsians" -- though it seems to me that his philosophy
recommends a system that is distinctly left-of-center.

As I understand Rawls, property ownership in an ideal society is ONLY
allowed because it creates incentive for diligence, efficiency, and
innovation.  Such ownership is allowed (in abundance) but only as "the
rising tide that lifts all boats" (as John Kennedy famously said), or
as "the invisible hand" that promotes the general well-being of
society (as Adam Smith famously said, way back in 1776).

As such, there is no such thing as "intrinsic ownership" in an ideal
society (Ayn Rand would be horrified!) -- property ownership is an
instrumental good only, and only to the extent that it promotes the
well-being of the least-advantaged and of the representative members
of society.

Should you wish to read my own light-hearted parable on the thinking
of John Rawls, please visit:

http://www.JohnRawls.org/

Best wishes to all:

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.electoralmaps.org/
Pictorial election results for every U.S. Presidential Election from
George Washington to Barack Obama.
 
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