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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010Australia: lavatory
From the same ESL student: --- I'd like to know which of the following is most commonly used in Australia. Could someone from Australia help me ? Which one sounds most natural in public? Where is the restroom? Where is the lavatory? Where is the mens' / ladies' room? Which one sounds more natural at home? I have to go to the toilet. I have to go to the bathroom. Thank you. --- Marius Hancu > From the same ESL student: > --- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Where is the lavatory? > Where is the mens' / ladies' room? Any of these is acceptable, although "lavatory" sounds a bit old-fashioned. The most natural of all is "toilet", a word that is understood all around the country. "Restroom" might occasionally get you directed to a place where you can sit down, but without any toilet facilities. > Which one sounds more natural at home? > I have to go to the toilet. Yes, correct. > I have to go to the bathroom. DO NOT USE THIS. Some Australian bathrooms contain a toilet bowl, but some do not. It is very common in this country to have a toilet that is not in the same room as the bath. If you ask to use the bathroom, your host might assume that you want to wash your hands or powder your nose, so will not direct you to the toilet. The following is not in answer to your question, but I've just remembered it. In another thread, someone mentioned the AmE term "half-bath". This has a different meaning in Australia: a bathtub that's half the normal size. I once lived in a flat that had a half-bath. It was seriously uncomfortable. I had to sit with my knees under my chin.  SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > The following is not in answer to your question, but I've just > remembered it. In another thread, someone mentioned the AmE term > "half-bath". This has a different meaning in Australia: a bathtub that's > half the normal size. I once lived in a flat that had a half-bath. It > was seriously uncomfortable. I had to sit with my knees under my chin. Thanks for mentioning that. Although i don't think it's used that way in Britain, when I first heard "half-bath" from an AmE speaker I thought it meant a "hip bath" or a "corner bath". SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk > Thanks for mentioning that. Although i don't think it's used that way > in Britain, It is, mainly by hoteliers. >when I first heard "half-bath" from an AmE speaker I thought > it meant a "hip bath" or a "corner bath". so what does it mean in AmE? And I thought the Oz for lavatory was 'dunny'. > > Thanks for mentioning that. Although i don't think it's used that way > > in Britain, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > so what does it mean in AmE? 1/2 bath: sink (aka wash basin) + toilet, but no bathtub or shower. Sometimes called a "powder room" (especially in New England, though also attested by aue-ers elsewhere), though that seems to be dying out. 3/4 bath: sink + toilet + shower, no bathtub (I've heard real estate agents claim that a sink+toilet+bathtub with no shower would also be a 3/4 bath, but have never witnessed it) full bath: sink + toilet + shower + bathtub 1/4 bath is rarely heard and varies between just a toilet and just a sink. 1/8 bath is very occasionally heard to mean something like a Pittsburgh toilet (where a stand-alone toilet is installed in the basement, without being walled in). "Where is the toilet?" sounds the most natural. > "Where is the toilet?" sounds the most natural. Except in a public building where the plural seems more appropriate. SignatureRob Bannister sjdevnull@yahoo.com filted: >3/4 bath: sink + toilet + shower, no bathtub (I've heard real estate >agents claim that a sink+toilet+bathtub with no shower would also be a >3/4 bath, but have never witnessed it) We had one of those for a time in the early 1970s...the tub was made of galvanized metal and had to be carried outdoors to empty it...hot water came from a teakettle on the nearby wood stove....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> so what does it mean in AmE? > >1/2 bath: sink (aka wash basin) + toilet, but no bathtub or shower. >Sometimes called a "powder room" (especially in New England, though >also attested by aue-ers elsewhere), though that seems to be dying >out. I would call that a lavatory, or just a toilet. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:32:19 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I would call that a lavatory, or just a toilet. Not surprising. Last time we had this discussion, someone from the UK attested to "powder room" being at least occasionally heard there as well, though also in decline--I heard it rarely when growing up in Maine, but haven't heard it since moving to Virginia. >> Thanks for mentioning that. Although i don't think it's used that way >> in Britain, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And I thought the Oz for lavatory was 'dunny'. Lavatory to me always conjuors up schools as that was the only place I ever heard or used it my self. One got a "lav pass" during class if the need arose. > And I thought the Oz for lavatory was 'dunny'. Although you'll occasionally hear an indoors dunny being called a dunny, the word most commonly refers to the traditional country dunny: an isolated structure located as far from the house as possible. Inside you'll find a wooden seat, a pile of newspapers for wiping, and an enormous collection of flies and spiders. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> And I thought the Oz for lavatory was 'dunny'. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you'll find a wooden seat, a pile of newspapers for wiping, and an > enormous collection of flies and spiders. Country? I doubt there's an Australian capital city apart from Canberra that doesn't have a few older suburbs where the rear of every house is accessible by a "laneway", which used to be used by the night soil man. In most cases, these outside dunnies still stand like a line of soldiers along the rear of all the older houses. Of course, as these older properties are torn down so they can build a score of units where once a single house stood, the traditional city dunny is disappearing. I think we discussed this once before, with correspondent saying that many American cities (specifically Chicago) were built like this. SignatureRob Bannister >>> And I thought the Oz for lavatory was 'dunny'. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I think we discussed this once before, with correspondent saying that > many American cities (specifically Chicago) were built like this. There was a Google Streetview photo of a man using an outdoor dunny, which has now been taken down. I believe it was in Melbourne. Traditional type toilets still exist in many National Parks or privately owned bush-camps, and are called "long-drops" or pit toilets. The more popular NPs have an aeration/worm composting system that are not too bad. However I have also used some nasty ones, including ones full of flies and spiders, where you have to chuck a spadeful of lime down after use. Narelle > From the same ESL student: > --- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Where is the lavatory? > Where is the mens' / ladies' room? It depends a great deal on where you are and whom you are asking. If you're a bloke asking another bloke in a not too classy pub, then I'm sure you'd say "Where's the dunny, mate?". In practice, I would think the most common phrase would be "Where's the toilet?" if you're asking someone of the same sex. If you're asking on behalf of someone else (it often falls to the man to enquire where the ladies' toilet is) then I would say "Where's the ladies?*" or "Where's the ladies' toilet?". Usually "men's toilet" rather than "gents", which seems to be peculiarly British. (*Notice I didn't pronounce an apostrophe - this is probably an AUE sin.) I would never use "restroom" and I've never heard anyone say it, although you do occasionally see the word written on signs. I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always strikes me as old-fashioned. British "loo", however, is widely used, especially in mixed company. > Which one sounds more natural at home? > I have to go to the toilet. > I have to go to the bathroom. The bathroom is where you bath, shower or wash. It frequently does not contain a toilet. I'm not totally sure whether "I have to go to the toilet" doesn't fall under the TMI banner - "I've got to go" would be enough in most homes, but there are many different ways of putting it, some of which could be restricted to particular families. SignatureRob Bannister > I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always strikes >me as old-fashioned. >British "loo", however, is widely used, especially in mixed company. My understanding is that "lavatory" is what upper-class people say. A Google on "U and non-U" finds many hits, including: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English which gives a short list of U and non-U words. If this list is to be believed, it seems unlikely that many Australians would say "lavatory"! SignatureIan >> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always strikes >> me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If this list is to be believed, it seems unlikely that many Australians > would say "lavatory"! "Lavvie" was used by my parents' generation, but it's now fallen out of use. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "Lavvie" was used by my parents' generation, but it's now fallen out > of use. "Lavatry" was the normal word in my youth. SignatureRay UK >>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >"Lavatry" was the normal word in my youth. LavaTORY, Ray. A hot tip for the coming election! SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > LavaTORY, Ray. A hot tip for the coming election! Hehe. I used that spelling to show the pronunciation. SignatureRay UK >>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >LavaTORY, Ray. A hot tip for the coming election! As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for the elections this year, in November. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >the elections this year, in November. That'll cheer up Tootsie no end. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >That'll cheer up Tootsie no end. Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jan 31, 7:25 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:27:14 +0000, Robin Bignall > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. So it all depends on how well they coordinate their axes. -- Jerry Friedman > On Jan 31, 7:25 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman Do the co-ordinates lie along the axes or in between? SignatureRob Bannister Jerry Friedman wrote: > Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. So it all depends on how well they coordinate their axes. [laugh] Good play on words, Jerry. SignatureMaria Conlon >> Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. > > So it all depends on how well they coordinate their axes. > > [laugh] Good play on words, Jerry. Just as long as they don't bring out any o' them axes of evil. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle wrot: >>> Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Just as long as they don't bring out any o' them axes of evil. Ah, how soon we forget. (Am I still one o' them, or have I been dropped for non-participation of late?) SignatureMaria Conlon >>>>>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. John McCain did that when he picked Sarah Palin. The Republicans must know they need a better tactic, I would think. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs filted: >>Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. > >John McCain did that when he picked Sarah Palin. The Republicans must >know they need a better tactic, I would think. You'd think they'd learn, but they don't...McCain thought it was enough to pick a running mate who looked pretty on camera but had no substance whatsoever, completely ignoring the lesson of Dan Quayle....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >a running mate who looked pretty on camera but had no substance whatsoever, >completely ignoring the lesson of Dan Quayle....r I can't remember much about him either, except that Quayle was infamous for his language blunders, IINM. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > substance whatsoever, completely ignoring the lesson of Dan > Quayle....r "Won't keep you from getting elected but will be good insurance against anybody wanting to impeach or assassinate you"? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>> the elections this year, in November. >> >> That'll cheer up Tootsie no end. > > Unless they are planning to use their axes on one another. Axe battles, in politics or anything else, are pretty rare these days, one would think. How many people even /have/ axes any more? We (Brian and I) don't have one, as far as I know, though I remember my grandfathers each having one. (We do have a chain saw, though, for tree-trimming and the like. I've never even touched it, and don't plan to. However, I can use a regular saw, and do so -- but not, so far, in confrentational situations with other people.) One more comment: "Politics" is/are generally described in war/battle/fighting terms, as are various sports. This, IMO, is a male influence. Not saying that's bad, of course. Just somewhat telling. SignatureMaria Conlon > Axe battles, in politics or anything else, are pretty rare these > days, one would think. How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > plan to. However, I can use a regular saw, and do so -- but not, so > far, in confrentational situations with other people.) I've got a hatchet, but no axe. Never been used on people. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |We never met anyone who believed in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |fortune cookies. That's astounding. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Belief in the precognitive powers |of an Asian pastry is really no kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |wackier than belief in ESP, (650)857-7572 |subluxation, or astrology, but you |just don't hear anyone preaching http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |Scientific Cookie-ism. | Penn and Teller >> Axe battles, in politics or anything else, are pretty rare these >> days, one would think. How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I've got a hatchet, but no axe. Never been used on people. I guess I'm the "Tim 'The tool man' Taylor of the group. I have a hatchet, an axe, a mattock, several hand tree saws, an electric pole chain saw, and a gasoline chain saw. Big yard, lotsa trees. obAUE: If Rey reads my posts, I'll let him hyphenate that "electric pole chain saw" to designate that the saw, not the pole, is electric. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Maria Conlon: >>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We >>> (Brian and I) don't have one, as far as I know... >>> (We do have a chain saw, though...) Evan Kirshenbaum: >> I've got a hatchet, but no axe. Never been used on people. Tony Cooper: > I guess I'm the "Tim 'The tool man' Taylor of the group. I have a > hatchet, an axe, a mattock, several hand tree saws, an electric pole > chain saw, and a gasoline chain saw. Big yard, lotsa trees. Since when did Tim Taylor ever use *hand tools*? I have a hatchet, a handsaw, a hacksaw, a saber saw, and a circular saw. (ObAUE: "saber saw". I believe this is also called a "jigsaw", although some might distinguish the terms, while a "reciprocating saw" is definitely distinct, a more powerful version.) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net | "Able was I ere I sawed Panama." >(ObAUE: "saber saw". I believe this is also called a "jigsaw", >although some might distinguish the terms, while a "reciprocating >saw" is definitely distinct, a more powerful version.) In Rightpondia a "saber/sabre saw" aka "general/all purpose saw" is very different from a "jigsaw". I can't work out the difference between a "reciprocating saw" and an "all purpose saw" from the examples listed here: http://www.screwfix.com/cats/102020/Power-Tools/Power-Saws This type of saw is also know as a "shark saw". This is a jigsaw: http://www.screwfix.com/prods/74691/Power-Tools/Jigsaws/Bosch-GST-75BE-650W-Jigs aw-110V It has a slender blade and is therefore suitable for cutting fairly tight curves. OED: jig-saw, n. a. A vertically reciprocating saw driven by a crank, mounted in various different ways. Also attrib., of a type of architectural decoration using fretwork patterns b. In full, jig-saw puzzle. A puzzle formed by cutting into small irregular pieces (orig. with a jig-saw) a picture mounted on a sheet of wood, cardboard, or the like. (Now the usual sense.) According to the OED's etymology "jig" refers to the rapid motion of the saw blade. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Feb 3, 6:19 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >(ObAUE: "saber saw". I believe this is also called a "jigsaw", > >although some might distinguish the terms, while a "reciprocating [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I can't work out the difference between a "reciprocating saw" and an > "all purpose saw" from the examples listed here:http://www.screwfix.com/cats/102020/Power-Tools/Power-Saws Your usage corresponds with what I've always heard in the US--saber saws are the bigger reciprocating saws. They're most commonly called "Sawzall"s here, though (that name often used generically even though it's still a valid trademark of the Milwaukee Electric Tool Company). Jigsaws are the smaller vertically-mounted things. >Maria Conlon: >>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >although some might distinguish the terms, while a "reciprocating >saw" is definitely distinct, a more powerful version.) You're padding your list. I thought the list was tree-related tools. Those other types of saws don't count. I have those, too. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Maria Conlon: >>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >You're padding your list. I thought the list was tree-related tools. >Those other types of saws don't count. I have those, too. I've never attacked a tree with a circular saw.[1] A few months ago I cut a branch (6 or 7in diameter) from an oak tree using a saber/reciprocating saw similar to this: <228 character url presnipped> http://tinyurl.com/yd8x63z I would normally use a chain saw for that sort of job but because of the angle of the branch and difficulty in accessing it I used the lighter weight tool. [1] I suppose you could fell a tree of any size by using a circular saw to cut the bark all the way round the trunk and then wait for a few years until the tree falls over. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>Maria Conlon: >>>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >I've never attacked a tree with a circular saw.[1] It's Evan, not me, who's listing a circular saw. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>Maria Conlon: >>>>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >It's Evan, not me, who's listing a circular saw. Or maybe Mark. The post was snipped. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>Maria Conlon: >>>>>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Or maybe Mark. The post was snipped. The attributions are confusing. I was the "hatchet, but no axe", even though the carets would seem to say otherwise. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never attempt to teach a pig to 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |sing; it wastes your time and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |annoys the pig. | Robert Heinlein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Maria Conlon: >>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We >>>>> (Brian and I) don't have one, as far as I know... >>>>> (We do have a chain saw, though...) Evan Kirshenbaum: >>>> I've got a hatchet, but no axe. Tony Cooper: >>> I guess I'm the "Tim 'The tool man' Taylor of the group. I have a >>> hatchet, an axe, a mattock, several hand tree saws, an electric pole >>> chain saw, and a gasoline chain saw. Big yard, lotsa trees. Mark Brader: >> I have a hatchet, a handsaw, a hacksaw, a saber saw, and a circular >> saw.... > You're padding your list. I thought the list was tree-related tools. Oh. I never saw that. Also, I don't think I ever saw Tim Taylor working on a tree. SignatureMark Brader | Does anybody seriously believe that if a bunch of horses Toronto | saw a giant egg broken into pieces, their response would msb@vex.net | be: "Hey! Let's try to reassemble this!"? --Dave Barry >Maria Conlon: >>>>>> How many people even /have/ axes any more? We [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Oh. I never saw that. Also, I don't think I ever saw Tim Taylor working >on a tree. The Binford 8200 was "a dangerous saw that cuts trees". (Wiki) I can't imagine Tim Taylor not enjoying the thrill of attacking a tree with a powerful chainsaw...from the wrong side of the tree. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >> the elections this year, in November. > > That'll cheer up Tootsie no end. I'll be cheered up for sure if the Republicans pick up some seats (House and Senate) in November. ObAUE: I'm not sure how well "grinding their axes" works in this sense. That is: Do the Republicans really have an "axe" to grind"? Or do Republicans simply have a challenge facing them, wherein they need to do better in the elections than they did in 2008? "An axe to grind" seems (to me) to involve situations more personal than an election. So, I may have an axe to grind with an acquaintance, but not with an organization. (Well, maybe in organized sports, especially at the local level.) But that usage could be my own "take" on things; others may use the "axe"* phrase more widely. *"Axe" is listed in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary) as a variation of "ax." That surprised me a bit. "Axe" has always been the spelling I've used. As long as we're touching on politics here, I must say that that Repubican Scott Brown's election to the Senate seat in Massachusetts (occupied so long by Democrat Ted Kennedy) was spoiled a bit for me when I learned that Brown had posed nude in Cosmopolitan magazine some years ago. That just seems like such a non-Republican thing to do. What's happened to conservatism in this country? More and more, we have an "anything goes" attitude it seems. SignatureMaria Conlon (aka "Tootsie"), resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. >As long as we're touching on politics here, I must say that that >Repubican Scott Brown's election to the Senate seat in Massachusetts >(occupied so long by Democrat Ted Kennedy) was spoiled a bit for me when >I learned that Brown had posed nude in Cosmopolitan magazine some years >ago. That just seems like such a non-Republican thing to do. I assume you will not be buying one of these Scott Brown Action Hero dolls: http://www.bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view/20100201never_fear_scott_bro wn_is_here/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> As long as we're touching on politics here, I must say that that >> Repubican Scott Brown's election to the Senate seat in Massachusetts [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dolls: > http://www.bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view/20100201never_fear_scott_bro wn_is_here/ I saw those on TV today. They could be just a joke, and may not really for sale. Anyway, I quit playing with dolls some time ago, and wouldn't be persuaded to do so now. There's more I could say, but it would be way too personal (and boring, probably). SignatureMaria Conlon >>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >at the local level.) But that usage could be my own "take" on things; >others may use the "axe"* phrase more widely. COD says that having an axe to grind simply means having a private reason for doing something. That surprised me (I've never looked it up before) because I've always thought it to be stronger, having a serious issue over something with someone. > *"Axe" is listed in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary) >as a variation of "ax." That surprised me a bit. "Axe" has always been [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >What's happened to conservatism in this country? More and more, we have >an "anything goes" attitude it seems. This "anything goes" has been growing since the seventies, IMO. It's as though some (quite a lot of) people don't seem to care what happens to them or how they appear to others (thinking of a recent picture in the newspapers of a girl in a party frock drunk as a skunk and lying in the snow). Mind you, if I'd ever had a body beautiful enough to star in Cosmopolitan I might have been tempted. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > up before) because I've always thought it to be stronger, having a > serious issue over something with someone. That seems to fit my usage. FWIW, Wicktionary says something similar, but includes a political angle: > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/axe_to_grind Wkitionary also compares "bone to pick" with "axe to grind." [...] >> As long as we're touching on politics here, I must say that that >> Repubican Scott Brown's election to the Senate seat in Massachusetts [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the newspapers of a girl in a party frock drunk as a skunk and lying > in the snow). Agreed. > Mind you, if I'd ever had a body beautiful enough to star in > Cosmopolitan But maybe you did. > I might have been tempted. And I might have looked. (I certainly looked at Burt Reynolds in Cosmo, but he wasn't fully uncovered. In fact, the important part(s) weren't shown at all. The rest was buff, of course -- "buff," in a couple of senses. (Note: That last bit makes this post totally On Topic.) SignatureMaria Conlon >>>>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>>>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Wkitionary also compares "bone to pick" with "axe to grind." This is very curious. They agree with what I always thought. How do other AUE users use "an axe to grind"? COD10's definition is not strong enough, IMO. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> COD says that having an axe to grind simply means having a private >>> reason for doing something. That surprised me (I've never looked it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >other AUE users use "an axe to grind"? COD10's definition is not >strong enough, IMO. I would use it to mean having a personal issue with someone and that that issue predicates future actions on my part. A "personal issue", in this case, would be something done by someone that directly affects me in a negative manner, but the person doing it may not necessarily know me or of me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>>>>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > other AUE users use "an axe to grind"? COD10's definition is not > strong enough, IMO. I don't take it to be as strong as that. In fact, my definition is pretty close to the modern (recently explained to me) "have a private agenda" (if I've understood it correctly). SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>>>>>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >pretty close to the modern (recently explained to me) "have a private >agenda" (if I've understood it correctly). Right, but that's getting closer to how Maria and Tony think of it because "agenda" no longer means simply "a list of topics for a meeting". "He has his own agenda" seems to imply that he is out of step with others in some sort of negative sense. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:36:16 +0800, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > meeting". "He has his own agenda" seems to imply that he is out of > step with others in some sort of negative sense. This story is apparently the origin of "an ax to grind", and that's how I think of it--the person wants more than he's saying. I know that others use it meaning more hostility. Anyway, Chuck said the Republicans were "grinding their axes", as I recall, which is different. http://books.google.com/books?id=qF1AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55#v=onepage&q=&f=false -- Jerry Friedman >> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:36:16 +0800, Robert Bannister >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman The phrase as I know it, is "He's got his own axe to grind" with "own" stressed. Possibly this way of saying it avoids the hostility. I just picture a man sitting on his own, away from everyone else, intent on his axe and stone and not paying much attention to anything else. SignatureRob Bannister >The phrase as I know it, is "He's got his own axe to grind" with "own" >stressed. Possibly this way of saying it avoids the hostility. I just >picture a man sitting on his own, away from everyone else, intent on his >axe and stone and not paying much attention to anything else. I take it as meaning that he has both a bee in his bonnet and a chip on his shoulder. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>>>>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>>>>>>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > meeting". "He has his own agenda" seems to imply that he is out of > step with others in some sort of negative sense. Help. I just can't keep up with all this. SignatureRob Bannister > *"Axe" is listed in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary) >as a variation of "ax." That surprised me a bit. "Axe" has always been >the spelling I've used. I remember having a book* when I was very young - probably late-ish 1940s. In it, "axe" was spelt "ax", so presumably it was American. My mother was quick to point out the 'strange' spelling! I may still have it. *Could it have been "The Valiant Little Tailor", with the claim of "Seven at one Blow? SignatureIan > Maria Conlon writes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > *Could it have been "The Valiant Little Tailor", with the claim of > "Seven at one Blow? Interesting. I wonder if "axe" and "ax" were both used in the late 1940s, and if the usages varied from place to place in the US. ("Ax" is not unknown to me, but "axe" is the version I use for some reason.) SignatureMaria Conlon > > Maria Conlon writes > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ("Ax" is not unknown to me, but "axe" is the version I use for some > reason.) I use "ax" when I need to make a query, but "axe" if I need to replace an axle. More seriously, neither "ax" nor "axe" looks better to me when referring to a tool used to cut wood, but even in closely related senses "ax" looks funny--I would never write "battle ax" or "pole ax", for instance. >>> Maria Conlon writes >>>> *"Axe" is listed in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > senses "ax" looks funny--I would never write "battle ax" or "pole ax", > for instance. How do you feel about "adz"? SignatureJames > sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>> Maria Conlon writes [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > How do you feel about "adz"? Unimpressed. Though Merriam-Webster lists it as a variant (giving it the same stature as "axe"), I don't recall having seen it in common use. I suppose I haven't had occasion to discuss or read about adzes all that often in my life either, but when I have they've appeared with an "e". >> sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>> Maria Conlon writes [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > suppose I haven't had occasion to discuss or read about adzes all that > often in my life either, but when I have they've appeared with an "e". I sat and watched a man in Turkey over a period of about two weeks. During this time, he completed the building of a boat about 10-12 metres long using only and adze and a mallet. SignatureRob Bannister [re: "the Republicans are grinding their axes for the elections this year"] > ObAUE: I'm not sure how well "grinding their axes" works in this sense. > That is: Do the Republicans really have an "axe" to grind"? Or do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > at the local level.) But that usage could be my own "take" on things; > others may use the "axe"* phrase more widely. I think they are two different uses. "They are grinding their axes" might just as well be "They are sharpening their spears", "whetting their knives," or "dusting off their muskets" -- any image involving getting ready, preparing, for work or for battle. "He has an ax(e) to grind" is quite different. That's the figure of speech that means he has a private, separate motive for his actions. Elsewhere "he has a bone to pick with XX" is brought in. I don't associate that with "having an ax to grind" at all. The bone to pick has to be *with* somebody (meaning, usually, a problem to discuss). Having an ax to grind stands alone. But maybe it's picked up the other meaning in some circles. > *"Axe" is listed in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary) > as a variation of "ax." That surprised me a bit. "Axe" has always been > the spelling I've used. Some years ago, I researched the saying/stories about the famous ax(e) of folklore that had X many heads and Y many handles. I remember that searching was hard because both spellings, ax and axe, were found so many places for so many centuries. I see that in his 1828 American dictionary, Noah Webster said AX, n. improperly written axe. The modern Merriam-Webster just says: Main Entry: ax Variant(s): or axe SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for > the elections this year, in November. I thought they still didn't believe they'd lost the last one. SignatureRob Bannister >> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >> the elections this year, in November. > >I thought they still didn't believe they'd lost the last one. With Romney and his choice for VP, whoever she would have been, they had a better chance, my time-reversal crystal ball claims. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> As hot as the news that the Republicans are grinding their axes for >>> the elections this year, in November. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > With Romney and his choice for VP, whoever she would have been, they > had a better chance, my time-reversal crystal ball claims. While I voted for McCain in the general election, I would have voted for Romney had he been nominated. (And I did vote for Romney in the Michigan primary. Unfortunately, he didn't win enough primaries to become the Republican nominee.) We may never know what kind of President he (Romney) would have been. Shall I say more? No. I've said enough about politics today. Now, I want to talk about English usage, but I need to come up with something new to say about the topic. SignatureMaria Conlon, Thinking furiously. >>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "Lavvie" was used by my parents' generation, but it's now fallen out > of use. "Lavatory" in my Aus family, though the younger Queensland members say "toilet". They also stick "room" in surprising places: not only do they say "lounge" (which to me is something you might find in an hotel), but they generally call it a "lounge room"; there's also "study room", which, though still odd, is more logical. I'm assuming that "lounge" has in this usage been reanalyzed as a verb. SignatureMike. >>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >which, though still odd, is more logical. I'm assuming that "lounge" has >in this usage been reanalyzed as a verb. "Rest room" often substitutes for those, in AmE. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > "Rest room" often substitutes for those, in AmE. I can't remember if anyone has mentioned the common Canadian "washroom". Very widely used around here for a public toilet, though by me considered somewhat non-U for the one in your house. CDB filted: >>> "Lavatory" in my Aus family, though the younger Queensland members >>> say "toilet". They also stick "room" in surprising places: not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"washroom". Very widely used around here for a public toilet, though >by me considered somewhat non-U for the one in your house. Odd, given that it's basically a calque for "lavatory"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > CDB filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Odd, given that it's basically a calque for "lavatory"....r I think I would keep that word for the institutional variety too. On a train, like. In a house it's "the bathroom" or some informal substitute like "loo". Le petit coin. >> CDB filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >a train, like. In a house it's "the bathroom" or some informal >substitute like "loo". Le petit coin. I presume that le petit coin is the penny that one used to have to spend to go. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England C.D. Bellemare: >>> I can't remember if anyone has mentioned the common Canadian >>> "washroom". Very widely used around here for a public toilet, >>> though by me considered somewhat non-U for the one in your house. R.H. Draney: >> Odd, given that it's basically a calque for "lavatory". C.D. Bellemare: > I think I would keep that word for the institutional variety too. > On a train, like. In a house it's "the bathroom" or some informal > substitute like "loo"... I think this is an area where British usage has rubbed off on me a bit, but I'm uncomfortable using "bathroom" for a room not containing a bath. A public washroom is indeed a "washroom", and so also is the room in our house that contains a toilet, sink, and shower. "Bathroom" in our house is unambiguously the room with a bath in it (as well as the usual other fixtures). SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Show that 17x17 = 289. Generalise this result." msb@vex.net | -- Carl E. Linderholm My text in this article is in the public domain. >>>>>> I've known a very few people who use "lavatory", but it always >>>>>> strikes me as old-fashioned. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >"washroom". Very widely used around here for a public toilet, though >by me considered somewhat non-U for the one in your house. Pronounced warshroom by some Americans. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > From the same ESL student: > --- [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > --- > Marius Hancu What about the loo? >> From the same ESL student: >> --- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What about the loo? Yes, someone else mentioned that. It's quite common, in some circles at least. Probably the most common in my family. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> From the same ESL student: >> --- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >What about the loo? Either "Where is the rest-room/toilet?" or more delicately, "Where do I find the gents'/ladies'?" At home, either toilet or loo, or sometimes by teenaged female visitors, bathroom. - John Savage (my news address is not valid for email) > From the same ESL student: > --- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Where is the lavatory? > Where is the mens' / ladies' room? Where are the toilets? Where's the ladies'? "Is there a disabled toilet?" Parents may ask "where is the baby change room?" But if I heard "Where are the restrooms?" I wouldn't miss a beat. My 90 year old aunt still uses "lavatory" in preference to toilet, and "lav" for home vocabulary. > Which one sounds more natural at home? > I have to go to the toilet. This, or "I need to go to the loo", or simply, "I'll be back in a minute, I'm desperate for a pee!". > I have to go to the bathroom. No, our bathrooms usually have a hand basin and a bathtub and/or shower cubicle but you won't always see a toilet in there as well. It's best to be specific to avoid confusion. However, if the asker has a accent most people would realise he was speaking North American and would send him in the right direction withou first wondering if he only needed to wash his hands. > Thank you. > --- > Marius Hancu >> From the same ESL student: >> --- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Where are the toilets? Where's the ladies'? "Is there a disabled > toilet?" Which would prompt me to reply something like: "Why do you want a toilet that's disabled"? SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>> From the same ESL student: >>> --- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Which would prompt me to reply something like: "Why do you want a > toilet that's disabled"? Quite! I had a similar reaction when I first came to Australia and saw signs for "Male Toilets" and "Female Toilets". >>>> From the same ESL student: >>>> --- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Quite! I had a similar reaction when I first came to Australia and saw signs >for "Male Toilets" and "Female Toilets". They amazed me too, when I arrived in Dublin. I thought the sign painter had made a mistake, instead of it being an Irish idiom that is not found in America. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> From the same ESL student: >>>>> --- [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > painter had made a mistake, instead of it being an Irish idiom that is > not found in America. It's found in Canada, particularly in institutions like hospitals. I thought it was an an attempt to sound clinical and scientific, but it may simply have been borrowed from the Irish. SignatureCheryl >>>>>> From the same ESL student: >>>>>> --- [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >thought it was an an attempt to sound clinical and scientific, but it >may simply have been borrowed from the Irish. It doesn't sound very clinical to me, Cheryl; it sounds silly. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> From the same ESL student: >>>>> --- [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >painter had made a mistake, instead of it being an Irish idiom that is >not found in America. I have just been dealing with a news item about an "Impaired Mobility friendly door". We've done alarmed doors many times, haven't we? Katy >>> From the same ESL student: >>> --- [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Which would prompt me to reply something like: "Why do you want a toilet > that's disabled"? You want a handicapped toilet? SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >>> "Is there a disabled toilet?" >> >> Which would prompt me to reply something like: "Why do you want a toilet >> that's disabled"? > >You want a handicapped toilet? It was a couple of years ago now, but I seem to remember posting a link to a picture directing people to the "accessible toilet"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >It was a couple of years ago now, but I seem to remember posting a link to a >picture directing people to the "accessible toilet"....r The converted suburban shop used by the veterinary surgeons to whom I take my cat when necessary has two entrances, There is the conventional main entrance and then one labelled "Access Only". Our language is becoming crippled. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Robert Bannister filted: >>>>> "Is there a disabled toilet?" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Our language is becoming crippled. It means there's no access except for access. Perfectly clear. SignatureJames James Hogg filted: >> The converted suburban shop used by the veterinary surgeons to whom I >> take my cat when necessary has two entrances, There is the conventional [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It means there's no access except for access. Perfectly clear. Nothing accedes like -- no, that doesn't quite work....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > James Hogg filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Nothing accedes like -- no, that doesn't quite work....r The invaluable "dial-a-ride" minibus with a tail lift at the back is apparently an "Xcessabus", but they've always looked pretty staid to me. SignatureMike. >>Robert Bannister filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Our language is becoming crippled. It's part of our divided society, innit. The main entrance is for the unwashed poor, counting out grubby fivers to get their mangy pets fixed, and the other is for the rich with Access cards. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Robert Bannister filted: >>>> "Is there a disabled toilet?" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It was a couple of years ago now, but I seem to remember posting a link to a > picture directing people to the "accessible toilet"....r When you're in a hurry, you don't want to waste time on the inaccessible one. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Tasha Miller filted: >> From the same ESL student: >> --- [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >would realise he was speaking North American and would send him in the right >direction withou first wondering if he only needed to wash his hands. You might cause a similar problem if you asked my father for directions to the "lavatory"...Dad was a plumber, and he knew that a toilet is for excreting into while a lav is for washing your hands.... When I was in an office where all the conference rooms were lettered, I started the practice of referring to "conference room P" for the plumbing facilities....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? |
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