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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010That or those team's chances?
I read the phrase "I assess that team’s chances as good" and it sounded wrong. I would have written "I assess those team’s chances as good" I am Italian, and in Italian the adjective "that" follows the genre and number of the referred object, so "those chances" remains "those chances" regardless of what happens on the rest of the phrase. My Italian brain builds the phrase like this: - I assess those chances - I assess those chances as good - I assess those chances of that team as good - I assess those team's chances as good The assessed object is the plural chances in all the four phrases. Does the same rule applies in English? If not, what is the rule that changes those in that? Thanks, Stefano > I read the phrase "I assess that team’s chances as good" and it > sounded wrong. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > - I assess those team's chances as good > The assessed object is the plural chances in all the four phrases. Surely the Italian would be: le possibilità (plural) di questa squadra (singular) But you have analysed it as le possibilità (plural) di queste (plural) squadra (singular) > Does the same rule applies in English? > If not, what is the rule that changes those in that? Build the sentence like this: Look at that team. Consider the chances of that team. I assess the chance of that team as good. I assess that team's chances as good.  SignatureJames I understand, you are pointing the finger at the team, not at the chances. I thought the author was pointing at the chances, perhaps because in Italian there is no Saxon genitive and I just didn't see it. So if I understand the five phrases below are correct, but the sixth is wrong because the Saxon genitive doesn't allow it: - I assess that house, I assess those houses - I assess that French wine, I assess those French wines - I assess that team chance, I assess those team's chances I should rephrase it as "those chances of that team." Thanks, Stefano > I understand, you are pointing the finger at the team, not at the > chances. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > house, I assess those houses - I assess that French wine, I assess those > French wines - I assess that team chance, I assess those team's chances Unfortunately, no. While nouns can be used adjectivally, the phrase "team chances" would be quite unusual outside some special constructions. One can say "They travelled on the team bus," or "I like the colors of the team uniform" (though even there "team's" would be more common, but "I think the team chances are good" is strongly unidiomatic. Perhaps someone else has an explanation for which form is best used where. Why, for example, can we idiomatically say "I like the team colors" (as on uniforms, banners, etc.) but not thus say of our nation's flag "I like the flag colors"? Beats me. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > I understand, you are pointing the finger at the team, not at the > chances. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > - I assess that French wine, I assess those French wines > - I assess that team chance, I assess those team's chances I assess that team's chances, I assess those teams' chances. The chances, which must include at least success and failure, are always plural. The team or teams own the chances. Therefore, the possessive, either 's or s', is needed. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email [...] > I assess that team's chances, I assess those teams' chances. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The team or teams own the chances. Therefore, the possessive, either 's > or s', is needed. Well, not strictly "own": say rather that "the central idea . . . is that of _sphere_, indicating that a . . . thing belongs to the sphere of another, having close relations to it or forming an integral part of it"-- hence a preference for the older form "genitive case" over "possessive case", because the relations are much more diverse than simple possession (as in, say, "her children's education" or "Caesar's murderers"). SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > I read the phrase "I assess that team’s chances as good" and it > sounded wrong. > I would have written "I assess those team’s chances as good" "That team's chances" means "the chances of that team". "Team" is singular, so "that" is also singular. You're trying to parse it as "those (team's chances)", but that doesn't work in English. If it works in Italian, you must be saying something equivalent to "those chances of the team", but that changes the meaning of the phrase: you are now referring to "the team" rather than to "that team". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. |
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