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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010low scoop neck
Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. "She had on a black top, sort of a leotard. Long-sleeved. A scoop neck, rather low-scooped neck. "(The Last Precinct, p190) Context: A man is describing the appearance of a woman to a prosecutor's investigation. Question: about "low" in "low scoop neck" Which way is it low? Or, I couldn't get what is low. Here's a diagram which I illustrated. http://www.geocities.jp/autosu/alt1.jpg At first I thought it referred to "opening space" between A and B. If so, I assumed that by "low" its opening space was meant to be narrow. Or, does it means that B line is low from the ground? > Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Or, does it means that B line is low from the ground? Low as in from the head and towards the waist. > Low as in from the head and towards the waist.- 引用テキストを表示しない - - Low scooped neck is an unclear expression. It should say: deeply scooped neck" >> Low as in from the head and towards the waist.- 引用テキストを表示しない - >> > - > > Low scooped neck is an unclear expression. > It should say: deeply scooped neck" It's clear enough to any native speaker. --Jeff  SignatureIs man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's? --Friedrich Nietzsche > > Low as in from the head and towards the waist.- 引用テキストを表示しない - > > - > > Low scooped neck is an unclear expression. > It should say: deeply scooped neck" Low scoop is far more common and idiomatic. The primary takeaway, as Tony C noted, is that the speaker was staring at the woman's cleavage. > Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Which way is it low? > Or, I couldn't get what is low. In general, "low" in connection with necks or necklines means showing a lot of the chest. > Here's a diagram which I illustrated.http://www.geocities.jp/autosu/alt1.jpg > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Or, does it means that B line is low from the ground? Here are some pictures of women wearing clothes with scoop necks: http://www.shopstyle.com/browse?fts=scoop+neck The "swimwear" picture has the lowest neck. (I wouldn't call that a scoop neck, but if you click on it, that's what they call it, and what do I know?) The "dress" and "jacket" (that's a jacket?) have rather low necks. The "sportswear" picture has a high neck. -- Jerry Friedman On Jan 26, 2:33 pm, Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote: > Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Which way is it low? > Or, I couldn't get what is low. In general, "low" in connection with necks or necklines means showing a lot of the chest. =============================================================== It can be scooped low in the back too. low scoop = low cut? >low scoop = low cut? Low, yes. But "scoop" refers to the shape. This dress has a square neck: http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t45/maggie6138/maggie2/shum1.jpg This one has a V neck: http://www.couturecandy.com/store/assets/goldhawk/gh-1112onyblk-fnt.jpg This one has a scoop neck: http://www.forever21.com/images/large/71623906-01.jpg SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Or, does it means that B line is low from the ground? The distance from "A" to "B" in your illustration is greater than a top that does not have a "low scooped neck". The meaning, though, is that the woman's cleavage was exposed. He's hesitant to say "Her tits were showing", so he's intimating this by describing that the neckline was low. Unless he's a fashion designer, his attention was on what part of the woman's skin was exposed and not on what style of outfit she had on. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >> Let me ask a question about a phrase from a novel. >> >> "She had on a black top, sort of a leotard. Long-sleeved. >> A scoop neck, rather low-scooped neck. "(The Last Precinct, >> p190) -snip- > The meaning, though, is that the woman's cleavage was exposed. > He's hesitant to say "Her tits were showing", so he's intimating > this by describing that the neckline was low. Unless he's a > fashion designer, his attention was on what part of the woman's > skin was exposed and not on what style of outfit she had on. Moving sideways... A solution in a crossword I did this week was "embonpoint", with the definition part of the (cryptic) clue being "fat". Checking the dictionary (Collins), I see that -- allowing for some clueing leeway -- this is fair enough, as it means "plump(ness) or stout (ness)". The definition makes no reference at all to the word being sex- specific, but I would have sworn that "embonpoint" referred to the generous chest of a large, plump lady: the sort of endowment that a traditionally-built grande dame could rest her teacup on. Have I been wrong all these years? Could one refer to the "embonpoint" of a man? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS filted: >The definition makes no reference at all to the word being sex- >specific, but I would have sworn that "embonpoint" referred to the >generous chest of a large, plump lady: the sort of endowment that >a traditionally-built grande dame could rest her teacup on. "A chest of drawers, no doubt, One with the top drawer half pulled out." -- Ivor Biggun ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Have I been wrong all these years? Could one refer to the > "embonpoint" of a man? Hits on Google Books: "his embonpoint" 615 "her embonpoint" 630 That seems to be as close to gender equality as you can get. SignatureJames >> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > That seems to be as close to gender equality as you can get. I have only encountered the word in the sense that Harvey notes. OED is somewhat coy on this: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Plumpness, well-nourished appearance of body: in complimentary or euphemistic sense. ----------------------------------------------------------------- SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > euphemistic sense. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe it's the inherent Frenchness of the word, but I tend to picture Louis XIV when I hear it. SignatureJames >>>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Maybe it's the inherent Frenchness of the word, but I tend to picture > Louis XIV when I hear it. Whereas I think of elderly actresses, often called Margaret. But checking Google Images neither Dumont nor Rutherford were particularly well-endowed. If you search GI for "embonpoint" you get some odd results, including Boris Johnson. SignatureLaura, slightly relieved that experiments show that she is not at teacup stage yet (emulate St. George for email) On 27 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >>>>> Have I been wrong all these years? Could one refer to the >>>>> "embonpoint" of a man? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > particularly well-endowed. If you search GI for "embonpoint" you > get some odd results, including Boris Johnson. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was under the wrong impression. I suspect it comes from first encountering the word along with a picture of one of the Dumonts or Rutherfords of the world, and misunderstanding what was being referred to. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 27 Jan 2010, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > picture of one of the Dumonts or Rutherfords of the world, and > misunderstanding what was being referred to. I think the first time I met the word was in a self-description by Bertie Wooster (which established the mental image which was years later to suggest that Fry and Laurie were the wrong way round). SignatureMike. Mike wrote on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:24:47 -0000: >> On 27 Jan 2010, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> with a picture of one of the Dumonts or Rutherfords of the >> world, and misunderstanding what was being referred to. > I think the first time I met the word was in a > self-description by Bertie Wooster (which established the > mental image which was years later to suggest that Fry and > Laurie were the wrong way round). I guess "embonpoint" has changed its meaning over the years. It's a bit like "debonair" that suggests the idea of slimness to me but not to Milton. "A daughter fair, So buxom, blithe, and debonair". L'Allegro, l. 24 SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > >>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Maybe it's the inherent Frenchness of the word, but I tend to picture > Louis XIV when I hear it. Who didn't have much of it, for most of his life. It's all those robes of state worn over each other which give that impression. Jan >>>>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > It's all those robes of state worn over each other > which give that impression. There you go, shattering my illusions. I shattered another one for myself just now when I tried to find out who it was who wore such a tightly fitting (or tight-fitting -- both are, of course, acceptable) waistcoat that he couldn't fasten the bottom button, thus setting a fashion. I vaguely remembered it being Louis XIV, but it seems to have been Edward VII. SignatureJames >>>>>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > thus setting a fashion. I vaguely remembered it being Louis XIV, but it > seems to have been Edward VII. I did not expect to get STS from this thread but now I'm hearing Ian Wallace singing "I can't do my bally bottom button up". SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> I shattered another one for myself just now when I tried to find out who >> it was who wore such a tightly fitting (or tight-fitting -- both are, of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I did not expect to get STS from this thread but now I'm hearing Ian > Wallace singing "I can't do my bally bottom button up". There's nothing quite like it. SignatureJames >>> I shattered another one for myself just now when I tried to find out who >>> it was who wore such a tightly fitting (or tight-fitting -- both are, of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > There's nothing quite like it. Thanks, that's cooled my blood. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>>>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote > >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > thus setting a fashion. I vaguely remembered it being Louis XIV, but it > seems to have been Edward VII. I remember seeing a carricature about it long ago First pane: Louis (a diminuitive little man, in a chemise) Second pane: Le Roi (the grandiose clothing, on a stand) Third pane: Le Roi Louis XIV (the two assembled, in grandiose posture, into a carricature of a well known state portrait) Perhaps you can transfer your illusion to Louis XVI? (who spent less of his life on horseback) Jan ... > I remember seeing a carricature about it long ago > First pane: Louis (a diminuitive little man, in a chemise) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Perhaps you can transfer your illusion to Louis XVI? > (who spent less of his life on horseback) Louis says: "That's just embonpoint!" -- Jerry Friedman >>>>>> On 26 Jan 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > thus setting a fashion. I vaguely remembered it being Louis XIV, but it > seems to have been Edward VII. Well, you see one toff, you've pretty much seen them all. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > A solution in a crossword I did this week was "embonpoint", with > the definition part of the (cryptic) clue being "fat". Checking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Have I been wrong all these years? Could one refer to the > "embonpoint" of a man? I've probably been influenced by a French term referring to the doneness of meat. What we call a medium steak is called in French "à point", which is hard to translate literally but which I think of as meaning "just right". My mental image of "embonpoint" is therefore a "just right" one: neither fat nor gaunt, but with just enough plumpness to remove the wrinkles and give an air of prosperity. To this we must add the realisation that admiration for thinness was a twentieth-century fad. In earlier times, "just right" would correspond to what we would now describe as a bit of excess padding. I'm aware that the word was often used as a euphemism for "large-breasted", but I doubt that that was the primary meaning. In my opinion it could be used in a description of either a man or a woman. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> A solution in a crossword I did this week was "embonpoint", with >> the definition part of the (cryptic) clue being "fat". Checking [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >which is hard to translate literally but which I think of as meaning >"just right". I associate "à point" with fencing and the use of the foil or épée (but not the sabre) - I imagine it as just a little bit more forcefull than "touché" - while "embonpoint" describes the degree of sharpness of the point involved... finely honed as opposed to merely dull. Similarly, the lady reeking of Chanel No 5 may appropriately be described as "de bon air". My lawn tractor is affectionately known as "Coup de grace". Jitze Jitze wrote, in <geh1m5t4cl42ceid2of6a6igu8633ptpb8@4ax.com> on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:21:50 -0800: > >> A solution in a crossword I did this week was "embonpoint", with > >> the definition part of the (cryptic) clue being "fat". Checking [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > My lawn tractor is affectionately known as "Coup de grace". I think the cooking usage should be "au point". SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Jitze wrote, in <geh1m5t4cl42ceid2of6a6igu8633ptpb8@4ax.com> > on Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:21:50 -0800: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > I think the cooking usage should be "au point". I think "au point" means "in focus" and that the culinary term is in fact "à point", which also means "just right". Mais je ne suis point sûr. SignatureJames |
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