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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010Hot Dogs
I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where he writes about the goings on in Copenhagen, circa 1926. He makes this statement, "In the evenings, most young physicists at the institute Like to relax in the cinema or in their lodgings wit a plate of hot dogs and a few beer." I assume these hot dogs Farmelo speaks of are sausages, but calling them hot dogs is strange to me. Has "hot dogs" replaced "sausages" in British usage? Hot dog to an American is a unique form of sausage which one person here has rebuffed very strongly and claims it isn't a sausage, at all. Or has Farmelo simply blundered in his writing, as he has so often done in this book? >I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >all. Or has Farmelo simply blundered in his writing, as he has so often >done in this book? I don't know what would have been customary in Copenhagen at the time, however I (British) would understand "hot dog" to mean a sausage in a long bread roll.  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jan 27, 5:10 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The > >Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > however I (British) would understand "hot dog" to mean a sausage in a > long bread roll. Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or sufficient condition for hot dog-ness. Putting another kind of sausage in a roll doesn't make it hot dog--Chicago is probably the city in America most associated with other types of sausages in such buns (as well as their own take on the hot dog). Hot dogs are also sometimes served without the roll: franks and beans is a common dish using breadless hot dogs. *It sounds unusual to my ear to use the word sausage in reference to a hot dog, though they certainly fit under that umbrella. I wouldn't expect an American to refer to a hot dog as a sausage, though. > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or > sufficient condition for hot dog-ness. I say it is a necessary condition. Without the bun it's just a frankfurter. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "The three dots '...' here suppress a lot of detail msb@vex.net | -- maybe I should have used four dots." -- Knuth > > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most > > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or > > sufficient condition for hot dog-ness. > > I say it is a necessary condition. Without the bun it's just a frankfurter. It's not in America, which was the distinction I was trying to draw; I found it interesting that the bun is required for something to be called a hot dog in the UK (and apparently Canada). sjdevnull@yahoo.com skrev: > It's not in America, which was the distinction I was trying to draw; I > found it interesting that the bun is required for something to be > called a hot dog in the UK (and apparently Canada). Count Denmark in, but a sausage with the bread and nothing else is called "a sausage with bread". There must be som sort of topping on a hotdog. SignatureBertel, Denmark > sjdevnull@yahoo.com skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is called "a sausage with bread". There must be som sort of > topping on a hotdog. Not in the US, though I don't think I've ever eaten a hot dog without some sort of topping on it. I just stepped into the living room and confirmed that my seven-year-old grandson takes his hot dog plain with no topping. Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Would it be a hot dog in elsecountry? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around > a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Would it > be a hot dog in elsecountry? Warm corn tortillas make a tasty substitute for buns. You get kind of a corndog effect. Brian SignatureDay 360 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns in >> the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around a hot [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Warm corn tortillas make a tasty substitute for buns. You get kind of a > corndog effect. With flour tortillas you get an even looser imitation of a bagel dog. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) John Varela skrev: > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around > a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Would it > be a hot dog in elsecountry? If you want to serve hotdogs in Denmark or maybe just sausages with bread, you probably buy the special sausage-breads quite cheaply in a nearby supermarket. I have never seen a piece of ordinary white bread wrapped around a sausage. SignatureBertel, Denmark > John Varela skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cheaply in a nearby supermarket. I have never seen a piece of > ordinary white bread wrapped around a sausage. But what if want a hot dog, have no buns, and don't feel like going to the store? Brian SignatureDay 360 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> John Varela skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >But what if want a hot dog, have no buns, and don't feel like going to >the store? And that's something that often happens since hot dogs and buns are not usually sold in packages with the same quantities of units as each other. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Default User skrev: > But what if want a hot dog, have no buns, and don't feel like going to > the store? Feel free to wrap anything around any kind of thing you like. I just say that I haven't done so myself and haven't seen anyone doing it. Whether something is a hotdog or not, is a very hypothetical question in Danish. I don't remember ever having discussed it. I have seen sausages served on plates with pieces of white bread on the side and toppings in bottles and jars. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Default User skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > just say that I haven't done so myself and haven't seen anyone > doing it. It was pretty common when I was a youth. There were eight kids in the family, so running out of this or that was par for the course. Brian SignatureDay 361 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > John Varela skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cheaply in a nearby supermarket. I have never seen a piece of > ordinary white bread wrapped around a sausage. I have, and have had them that way. In truth, I prefer the bread wraparound to any "hot dog bun" because the buns are too big and/or thick. More calories, too, I expect. SignatureMaria Conlon >> John Varela skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wraparound to any "hot dog bun" because the buns are too big and/or > thick. More calories, too, I expect. AOL. The pleasure of eating a hot dog lies entirely in the stuff that's inside the bun. The bun itself is an ordeal that must be borne as part of the ritual. I know that frankfurters are most likely made of rubbish, but the traditional hot dog bun is even worse. With good-quality bread more might be better, but the opposite is true with substandard bread, and tradition appears to demand substandard rolls as the presentation medium for hot dogs. My children used to really love cocktail frankfurts when they were young. I didn't think much of them myself, but I cooked them now and then as a special treat. That gave them* all of the pleasure of eating hot dogs, without the drawback of having to consume those terrible rolls. I don't believe I've ever seen a hot dog served in an upmarket roll. *The children. The repeated "them" is probably a stylistic error, but I couldn't think of a better way of saying it. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan skrev: > My children used to really love cocktail frankfurts when they were > young. I didn't think much of them myself, but I cooked them now and > then as a special treat. Didn't they scream? SignatureBertel, Denmark [...]> > I don't believe I've ever seen a hot dog served in an upmarket roll. Tony once posted a really appetising photo of a Chicago hot dog in a roll of what seemed like real bread. But in Britain it's certainly part of the hot-dogster's code of honour that even if the sausage is bearable, the insulation must be half-baked and soggy. A bit like refrigerator-manufacturers, sworn on pain of expulsion from the Guild to make part of each appliance out of the kind of plastic which goes brittle when it's cold; or old-fashioned market traders who'd have died of shame if they hadn't put one rotten orange in the bottom of the bag; or M$, who won't ship a product until it has the required number of faults. SignatureMike. >[...]> >> I don't believe I've ever seen a hot dog served in an upmarket roll. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the bottom of the bag; or M$, who won't ship a product until it has the >required number of faults. The best hot dogs I've ever eaten were purchased from a cart vendor in Lincoln Park Zoo. (Chicago) The carts were designed so the hot dogs simmered in a basin of heated water and the buns resided in a compartment partially over that basin so stem from the water would soften the rolls. Not much steam arose, so the buns were warm, soft, and not soggy. I used past tense because the vendors in LPZ no longer use these old-style carts. The new carts are larger to accommodate Board of Health rules that require them to have running water and sinks for hand washing and other "features". The buns are now left in their cellophane package until needed. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > > John Varela skrev: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wraparound to any "hot dog bun" because the buns are too big and/or > thick. More calories, too, I expect. Yuck to both. I roast mine in my wood stove, then usually wrap them in a great wad of lettuce, sometimes with some chopped-up onion inside as well. By the time I've done that to my satisfaction, even good bread makes them too big to eat. "White bread" in this country, unless you buy it at a small bakery that does it from scratch with yeast, means flour product, water, and chemicals. No yeast. No flavor. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> > John Varela skrev: >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > well. By the time I've done that to my satisfaction, even good bread > makes them too big to eat. Wood stove, wadded lettuce, chopped-up onion, etc., strikes me as too much trouble for a hot dog. (Plus, chopped or any other version of onions would ruin the creation for me. I'm odd that way.) > ..."White bread" in this country, unless you > buy it at a small bakery that does it from scratch with yeast, means > flour product, water, and chemicals. No yeast. No flavor. May I present another opinion? White bread is fine with me, whether it's just out of the grocery store wrapping or fresh from my own oven (unlikely though that may be these days). For a quick lunch, a nuked hot-dog-in-bread-or-bun is sufficient. Dinner is when the really good stuff gets made -- or ordered in a nice restaurant -- if one is lucky. SignatureMaria Conlon Who is not overly fussy about food unless it's something I'm allergic to or cannot stand the taste or smell of. (So, okay, maybe I /am/ fussy. >John Varela skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >cheaply in a nearby supermarket. I have never seen a piece of >ordinary white bread wrapped around a sausage. I have, but only because I was out of hot dog buns. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >John Varela skrev: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have, but only because I was out of hot dog buns. Wrapping a piece of "ordinary white bread", which in the US usually means tasteless white trash, around anything would almost invariably keep me from anything unless I were truly fainting from hunger, and even then I'd throw away the wrapping if the filling were edible. Of course, I don't consider boiled hotdogs particularly edible to begin with. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> >John Varela skrev: >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >keep me from anything unless I were truly fainting from hunger, and even >then I'd throw away the wrapping if the filling were edible. Me too, if it was ordinary white bread, although in Ireland several eatable white breads are readily available. Still, good white bread is available in many parts of America if you go to the right bakery. >Of course, >I don't consider boiled hotdogs particularly edible to begin with. I'm with you, there, if we're talking about the average American hot dog. Again, in Ireland, excellent sausages are readily available. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Still, good white bread is > available in many parts of America if you go to the right bakery. I exempted such bakeries elsethread 8-) SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around > a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Would it > be a hot dog in elsecountry? I think Australians would call it an imitation hot dog. Assuming you're using a red banger, that is. Otherwise all bets are off. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. John Varela filted: >Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns >in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around >a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Would it >be a hot dog in elsecountry? I suspect you'll be told by someone who cares about such things that it's a "hot dog", not a hot dog....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >John Varela filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I suspect you'll be told by someone who cares about such things that it's a "hot >dog", not a hot dog....r Yes, "a hot dog, ha-ha", he might say. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> sjdevnull@yahoo.com skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > confirmed that my seven-year-old grandson takes his hot dog plain with > no topping. ObG&S: Oh, I was like that when a lad! I still prefer eat my hotdogs with just ketchup, which I know is enough to get me run out of Chicago on a rail (with tar, feathers, and cheese fries). > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns in > the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around a hot > dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. Oh, no, not the "sandwich" thread again!!! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around > a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich ... <tannoy> Paging Professor Fontana </tannoy> SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> sjdevnull@yahoo.com skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around >a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. I'd call the result a poor man's pig in a blanket, not a hot dog. Here's a fancier piab: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSEORUcHAVE >Would it >be a hot dog in elsecountry? A hot dog needs a proper hot dog bun to be a hot dog, IMO, in any country. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns > > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around > > a hot dog. I still call the resulting sandwich a hot dog. > > I'd call the result a poor man's pig in a blanket, not a hot dog. I would disagree. That dish requires that it be baked in the dough covering, not wrapped in bread. It's a hot dog. Brian SignatureDay 361 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >> > buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I would disagree. That dish requires that it be baked in the dough > covering, not wrapped in bread. It's a hot dog. Be careful with that "requires". There are at least two meanings for "pigs in a blanket" current in the US. There's the hors d'oeuvre made out of (usually mini) hot dogs baked in biscuit dough and the breakfast made from breakfast sausages wrapped in pancakes. The latter is what I first learned. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English |has pursued other languages down kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious (650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new |vocabulary. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll >>>> Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>>> buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > breakfast made from breakfast sausages wrapped in pancakes. The > latter is what I first learned. Then there's the cocktail sausage wrapped in bacon. SignatureRay UK >>>>> Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>>>> buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Then there's the cocktail sausage wrapped in bacon. I don't think I've seen that with that name in the US. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stops, and a train station is where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say |about a workstation? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>>> Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>>>>> buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I don't think I've seen that with that name in the US. "Pork squared", perhaps? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog > >> > buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > breakfast made from breakfast sausages wrapped in pancakes. The > latter is what I first learned. I was unfamiliar with the second. Sorry for any confusion. Brian SignatureDay 361 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > Be careful with that "requires". There are at least two meanings for > "pigs in a blanket" current in the US. There's the hors d'oeuvre made > out of (usually mini) hot dogs baked in biscuit dough and the > breakfast made from breakfast sausages wrapped in pancakes. The > latter is what I first learned. Make that three. Until I met the mini version less than a decade ago, the only pig in a blanket I knew for six and a half decades was a full-sized hot dog wrapped in biscuit dough. These, by the way, could not only be the baked version, but could be made on a stick over a campfire. First you roast the hotdog, then you cover it with Bisquick mixed with water and roast that. It tastes even better outdoors, even if messier and not always done perfectly 8-) SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> Be careful with that "requires". There are at least two meanings for >> "pigs in a blanket" current in the US. There's the hors d'oeuvre made [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >mixed with water and roast that. It tastes even better outdoors, even >if messier and not always done perfectly 8-) I wish I knew about your recipe back when Big George and I took one of our two-day, white-water canoeing jaunts. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Until I met the mini version less than a decade ago, > >the only pig in a blanket I knew for six and a half decades was a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I wish I knew about your recipe back when Big George and I took one of > our two-day, white-water canoeing jaunts. Oh, it would be fantastic for something like that!! SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >>> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>> > buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >breakfast made from breakfast sausages wrapped in pancakes. The >latter is what I first learned. I remember those! They can be very good, IMO. Doesn't IHOP serve them? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns >>>> > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I remember those! They can be very good, IMO. Doesn't IHOP serve them? They certainly used to, at least. I would order them for dinner when both IHOP and I were new. (I am only slightly less new than IHOP, but older than the first one in Hollywood.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog buns >>>>> > in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it around [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >both IHOP and I were new. (I am only slightly less new than IHOP, but >older than the first one in Hollywood.) Then I believe I predate you. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>>>>> > buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Then I believe I predate you. I am quite certain that you do. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>>>> > Regarding the need for a bun: If there happen to be no hot dog >>>>>>> > buns in the house, I will take a slice of white bread and wrap it [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >I am quite certain that you do. I was born a month after VE Day. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > I was born a month after VE Day. Youngster! 8-) SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > > I was born a month after VE Day. > > Youngster! 8-) Worse: a baby boomer. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> > I was born a month after VE Day. >> >> Youngster! 8-) > >Worse: a baby boomer. Yes, I'm one of the troublemakers you hear about in endless news accounts. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >> > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >found it interesting that the bun is required for something to be >called a hot dog in the UK (and apparently Canada). I've been looking at the websites of a few UK supermarkets for confirmation of that statement. I am now slightly confused. Sausages for use in rolls/buns to make hot dogs tend to be classified as "hot dog sausages". However, the cans or jars containing such sausages in brine sre labelled "Hot Dogs". Hot dogs (sausages in buns) can be made with sausages packaged in other ways, for example, vacuum-packed frankfurters such as: http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1264682656314 Description Perfect for making hot dogs or grilling on the barbecue. AMERICAN STYLE CURED AND COOKED SAUSAGES. The maker's website for another brand of frankfurters gives a variety of recipes. All the frankfurter recipes with "Dog" in the name have the frankfurters in rolls. This is in line with my observation that in the UK a "hot dog" is a (hot dog) sausage in a roll. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >> commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or >> sufficient condition for hot dog-ness. > > I say it is a necessary condition. Without the bun it's just a > frankfurter. The US Code of Federal Regulations (United States> Code of Federal Regulations> Title 9 - Animals and Animal Products> CHAPTER III--FOOD SAFETY AND INSPECTION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE> PART 319--DEFINITIONS AND STANDARDS OF IDENTITY OR COMPOSITION > § 319.180 Frankfurter, frank, furter, hotdog, weiner, vienna, bologna, garlic bologna, knockwurst, and similar products) disagrees: "(a) Frankfurter, frank, furter, hot-dog, wiener, vienna, bologna, garlic bologna, knockwurst and similar cooked sausages are comminuted, semisolid sausages prepared from one or more kinds of raw skeletal muscle meat . . . " http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title09/9-2.0.2.1.20.7.21.1.html >>> Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >>> commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title09/9-2.0.2.1.20.7.21.1.html I like that word "comminuted". "Comminutia -- the off(ici)al mystery meat of a.u.e!" SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson: > I like that word "comminuted". I don't. I had a comminuted fracture once. SignatureMark Brader "People with whole brains, however, dispute Toronto this claim, and are generally more articulate msb@vex.net in expressing their views." -- Gary Larson > Roland Hutchinson: >> I like that word "comminuted". > > I don't. I had a comminuted fracture once. Ouch! Point taken. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson: >>> I like that word "comminuted". Mark Brader: >> I don't. I had a comminuted fracture once. Roland Hutchinson: > Ouch! (ObPython) I got better. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "So *you* say." --Toddy Beamish msb@vex.net | (H.G. Wells, "The Man Who Could Work Miracles") > Roland Hutchinson: >>>> I like that word "comminuted". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I got better. Best health care in the world, innit, Canada. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most > > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or > > sufficient condition for hot dog-ness. > > I say it is a necessary condition. Without the bun it's just a frankfurter. Without the bun it is a frankfurter, a frank, a wiener, a weenie, or a hot dog. Or maybe a few other names. A hot dog in a bun is sometimes called a frankfurter. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >> > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >a hot dog. Or maybe a few other names. A hot dog in a bun is >sometimes called a frankfurter. It's not like its a *rule* though. My two grandchildren like hot dogs. One of them doesn't like his hot dog on a bun. When they are both eating them, it's not like one is eating a hot dog and the other is not. My son - the father of my grandchildren - likes to camp. When they toast these things over the campfire, they refer to toasting "weenies". The boys eat them right off the stick. If one removes the cooked meat from the stick, slaps it in a bun, its not like he's eating a hot dog and the other one is eating a weenie. Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased in packages that identify the contents as "franks". http://brands.kraftfoods.com/oscarmayer SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are >>>> most commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > in packages that identify the contents as "franks". > http://brands.kraftfoods.com/oscarmayer` At Costco's quick-lunch counter you may choose a "Hot Dog" or a "Polish Dog". Treat 'em and eat 'em the same, but one is made with a hot dog and the other with a Polish-sausage-style hot dog. Neither of them pops when you bite; I rule them less-than-authentic. Good deal, though: foot long, all the ketchup, mustard (two kinds), pickle relish, and chopped onion you want, and a big drink, $1.50. SignatureFrank ess >>>>> Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are >>>>> most commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Good deal, though: foot long, all the ketchup, mustard (two kinds), >pickle relish, and chopped onion you want, and a big drink, $1.50. Same here, and the drink is refillable. Who would call it a "Polish dog", though? It's a "Polish sausage", but you just order "a Polish". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are >>>>> most commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Good deal, though: foot long, all the ketchup, mustard (two kinds), >pickle relish, and chopped onion you want, and a big drink, $1.50. Mustard, relish and chopped onion, yes, but who puts ketchup on a hot dog? (Other than my ex-wife?) SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Mustard, relish and chopped onion, yes, but who puts ketchup on a hot > dog? (Other than my ex-wife?) Everyone right-thinking American with a soul who's able to distinguish tradition from modern marketing (and hot dogs from real sausages) puts ketchup on a hot dog. The "don't put ketchup on a ot dog" pish was a marketing ploy by Chicago-based Vienna Beef. As far as I can tell, it only really caught on within the last 20 years; up through the 1980s Harray Caray was feasting on his favorite ketchup-laden Vance Law dogs along with thousands of others every day in Wrigley Park, with nary an eye batted by the latter-day ketchup police. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=resources/lifestyle_community/food/rest aurants&id=6893498 recounts: Kraig says a marketing ploy led to Chicago's "no ketchup" policy as Vienna wanted to distinguish itself from Oscar Meyer and other brands. "Decided that these are adult hot dogs from hot dog stands, so they have to be different. Kids put ketchup on everything because they don't know any better, and so they said no ketchup. And so it caught on, and it became a Chicago thing," Kraig said. >> Mustard, relish and chopped onion, yes, but who puts ketchup on a >> hot dog? (Other than my ex-wife?) Little kids, mostly. > Everyone right-thinking American with a soul who's able to >distinguish tradition from modern marketing (and hot dogs from real [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > along with thousands of others every day in Wrigley Park, with nary > an eye batted by the latter-day ketchup police. I don't think many of us paid a whole lot of attention to the eating habits of a guy from St. Louis. > http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=resources/lifestyle_community/food/rest aurants&id=6893498 > recounts: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > don't know any better, and so they said no ketchup. And so it caught > on, and it became a Chicago thing," Kraig said. And goes on: Marketing aside, Kraig says from a purely culinary point of view, ketchup has no place on an all-beef dog. "Here is why you don't put ketchup on a hot dog - because it destroys the flavor balance of a hot dog, which is carefully constructed. It's slightly sweet from the relish maybe, but it is also sour, and it's savory, and it's crunchy and if you put ketchup on it, it destroys everything. It overwhelms all things," he said. The article doesn't say when that "marketing ploy" took place. Vienna has been selling hot dogs in Chicago since 1894. It was certainly taken for granted when I was growing up in the '70s that ketchup was something that only kids put on them. I guess if you split them open and grill them or if you boil them you've already ruined them enough that it doesn't really matter what you put on them. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The vast majority of humans have 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |more than the average number of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |legs. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ In article <b4ae30af-9b24-4ea9-bc32-cade5f2f56fe@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, > Everyone right-thinking American with a soul who's able to distinguish > tradition from modern marketing (and hot dogs from real sausages) puts > ketchup on a hot dog. Fortunately I've never been accused of being "a right-thinking American." I find ketchup nauseating. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > Everyone right-thinking American with a soul who's able to distinguish > tradition from modern marketing (and hot dogs from real sausages) puts > ketchup on a hot dog. WIWAL 60+ years ago, no one put ketchup on a hot dog. At the kiosk across the street from the swimming pool, which was about the only place I ever got hot dogs, the only condiment was mustard. I would as soon put ketchup on a grilled cheese sandwich as on a hot dog. I have been known to put chili, or sometimes relish, on a hot dog, but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind--is the one, true, right, proper, and traditional red-white-and-blue American condiment on a hot dog. SignatureJohn "so there!" Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind Wait what? Surely you're not talking of the insipid, borderline flavorless gelatinous bright yellow French's-style stuff? If it doesn't have plenty of visible seeds and lots of spicy bite, it's not real mustard. The occasional English hot mustard doesn't have full seeds but maintains flavor, but a pure, smooth, homogeneous yellow is the biggest indicator of sissified vinegar-sauce with no actual mustard flavor. >> but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the biggest indicator of sissified vinegar-sauce with no actual >mustard flavor. Hold on, there. Whereas French's is for the thin-skinned, Colman's has no seeds and is as real as mustard gets, from what I've found, outside a good Chinese restaurant, that is. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >> but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > no seeds and is as real as mustard gets, from what I've found, outside > a good Chinese restaurant, that is. That's precisely the sort I had in mind when I included the note "The occasional English hot mustard doesn't have full seeds but maintains flavor". The issue with French's-style "ballpark" mustards is that they don't actually have much mustard in them; they load up on turmeric in order to get that bright yellow color without accidentally packing in any flavor (historically, anyway--it could be artificial coloring these days). >> >> but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >flavor (historically, anyway--it could be artificial coloring these >days). The tumeric, then, may be the root cause of French's nickname, baby sh.t. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> >> but mustard--the yellow kind, not that sissified gray kind >>> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > The tumeric, then, may be the root cause of French's nickname, baby > sh.t. I hear a lot of people pronounce the word as "TOO mer ick", so I think that is why the misspelling occurs" tumeric http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tumeric Common misspelling of turmeric. An extract found in the curry spice tumeric can kill off cancer cells, lab scientists have shown. - RSS headline feed, Curry spice 'kills cancer cells', BBC News online, 28 October 2009 I say "TER mer ick", simply because that follows the spelling. Lord knows how it is pronounced by curry makers, etc. Pat Durkin filted: >>>The issue with French's-style "ballpark" mustards is that they don't >>>actually have much mustard in them; they load up on turmeric in [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I say "TER mer ick", simply because that follows the spelling. Lord >knows how it is pronounced by curry makers, etc. In far too many instances, it should be pronounced "annatto"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Chuck Riggs skrev: > Mustard, relish and chopped onion, yes, but who puts ketchup on a hot > dog? (Other than my ex-wife?) Almost every Dane. There are many variations in the toppings people like, but ketchup is most commonly chosen. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Almost every Dane. There are many variations in the toppings >people like, but ketchup is most commonly chosen. WIWAL there was a shop called "Danish Hotdog". Their hotdogs were topped with dry-fried onion and a species of mustard. They were very nice. I still buy this onion at Asian grocery shops. They use it on laksa and so on. You can get onion, garlic or shallot versions but they all taste similar. I found an image (ultra-ong URL so I only include a tiny, preview one) http://preview.tinyurl.com/yclhlfq SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased > in packages that identify the contents as "franks". > http://brands.kraftfoods.com/oscarmayer For whatever reason, Oscar Mayer has a variety of labels. Among the nomenclatures are that the all-beef hot dogs are "franks" and the mixed meat ones "wieners". <http://brands.kraftfoods.com/oscarmayer/omm_hotdogs.htm> Brian SignatureDay 360 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased >> in packages that identify the contents as "franks". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > nomenclatures are that the all-beef hot dogs are "franks" and the mixed > meat ones "wieners". This thread appears to have established that the word "frankfurter" - with abbreviations "frankfurt" and "frank" - is understood around the English-speaking world. "Wiener", however, appears to be a purely AmE word. When I see that word I can think only of the pornographic meaning. I'm not sure why. We're all familiar with the schnitzel of Wien, so why not the sausage? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan skrev: > This thread appears to have established that the word "frankfurter" - > with abbreviations "frankfurt" and "frank" - is understood around the > English-speaking world. "Wiener", however, appears to be a purely AmE > word. When I see that word I can think only of the pornographic meaning. I have heard "wienerpølse" in Denmark, but I think it was only when I was a child, and not very often. SignatureBertel, Denmark >>> Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased >>> in packages that identify the contents as "franks". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with abbreviations "frankfurt" and "frank" - is understood around the > English-speaking world. "Frankfurter" and "frank", yes. I think that "frankfurt" is much more localized. I certainly wouldn't have associated it with hot dogs. > "Wiener", however, appears to be a purely AmE word. When I see that > word I can think only of the pornographic meaning. Which, of course, comes from the "hot dog" sense. > I'm not sure why. We're all familiar with the schnitzel of Wien, so why > not the sausage? I would guess that it's because the sausage itself isn't Viennese, but rather got the association via the Vienna Sausage Company (later Vienna Beef) of Chicago. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The bathwater, in this case, does 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not appear to ever have contained Palo Alto, CA 94304 |any baby. | kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | ronniecat (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >>> Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased > >>> in packages that identify the contents as "franks". [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > rather got the association via the Vienna Sausage Company (later > Vienna Beef) of Chicago. Wiener Wurstchen are closer to the size of what we call "hot dogs". "Bratwurst" there is also a larger size than what you find in US grocery stores. And even here there are more than two kinds, not all raw; some are smoked. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >>> Just to confuse things, the hot dogs/weenies are sometimes purchased >>> in packages that identify the contents as "franks". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >English-speaking world. "Wiener", however, appears to be a purely AmE >word. When I see that word I can think only of the pornographic meaning. It is well known in the German-speaking world, too: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiener_Schnitzel >I'm not sure why. We're all familiar with the schnitzel of Wien, Perhaps, but I've always known it as Wiener schnitzel. >so why >not the sausage? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >>> > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > cooked meat from the stick, slaps it in a bun, its not like he's > eating a hot dog and the other one is eating a weenie. Whereas I think that's a pretty good description of BrE usage, although I've never heard a Brit use "wiener" or "weenie" (although many of us understand the term - at least from vulgar use in US films). "Bologna", btw, isn't even known to most of us - we'd guess it was pasta sauce i expect. One is having a sausage, one a hot-dog. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk > >>> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most > >>> > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > btw, isn't even known to most of us - we'd guess it was pasta sauce i > expect. Weenie and wiener are pretty much exclusively kids' terms (or parents talking to their kids) for hot dogs; adults would pretty much never talk about weenies in the US. I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE bologna/baloney is a cold cut meat, almost exclusively eaten in sandwiches, and closer in nature/usage to a much downscale pastrami, mortadella, or salami than to anything that would be called a sausage or hot dog. Certainly in the vaguest technical terms one could call a full salami or baloney a sausage, but that's way, way further from day-to-dayl AmE usage than even something as rare as calling a hot dog a sausage is. Given the lack of BrE usage you note, I can't see why it even entered the conversation. FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly spelled baloney) as a food is completely unrelated. Golognese sauce is beef-based and not really a domestic product, more a descriptor of one foreign sauce that's somewhat common here, while bologna is a common American pork-based product. (Bolognese sauce can contain pancetta or other pork products, but it's primarily beef-based). Presumably they're named after the same location, but aside from that they're completely unrelated. > Weenie and wiener are pretty much exclusively kids' terms (or parents > talking to their kids) for hot dogs; adults would pretty much never > talk about weenies in the US. To me it always makes me think of "The Biggest Ball of Twine in Minnesota" ("Of course we stopped for more pickled wieners now and then") - which, as an aside, has some great rhymes that just don't work in BrE. > I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE bologna/baloney > is a cold cut meat, almost exclusively eaten in sandwiches, and closer > in nature/usage to a much downscale pastrami, mortadella, or salami > than to anything that would be called a sausage or hot dog. Because lots of people have been mentioning in the thread. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> >>> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They >> >>> > are most [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > in nature/usage to a much downscale pastrami, mortadella, or salami > than to anything that would be called a sausage or hot dog. In my area, if we are talking about cold cuts, we might refer to "baloney*", (also referred to as "big baloney") but you may recall that there is also such a thing as a "ring baloney". That is a beef or pork sausage about 16 inches long, and 1 1/2 to 2 inches in diameter, with the ends tied together for hanging as it is smoked. It's more of a horse-shoe shape. That product is frequently boiled, but is sometimes sliced and fried. Some is identical to the floury paste of the "big baloney". I have heard and seen that texture referred to as "pate" (French style), but there are all sizes of grinds in the ring baloneys I have eaten. A year or so ago, Maria and I had a mild disagreement here about ring baloneys. She indicated that somewhere in Michigan near her city there was a plant producing ring baloneys. *As you stated, "bologna" is interchangeable with "baloney", but I do know people who save "bologna" for the higher-priced item. Oh, yes. Some blood sausage and liverwurst are also packed in casings of the "ring" style. > Certainly in the vaguest technical terms one could call a full > salami [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that > they're completely unrelated. Pat Durkin wrote, in part: > [...] A year or so ago, Maria and I had a mild disagreement here about > ring baloneys. She indicated that somewhere in Michigan near her city > there was a plant producing ring baloneys. I have no recollection of that (or how I may have spelled "balogna/baloney"). However, I think ring bologna is still produced at Kowalski's in Hamtramck. There are other brands, too, (Alexander & Hornung, for one) being produced in the general area. We have ring bologna for dinner probably once or twice a month. We boil it sliced (with onions, which I remove from my serving). Any leftovers get fried for breakfast a day or two later. Ketchup/catsup is the usual "sauce." SignatureMaria Conlon, Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit. > Weenie and wiener are pretty much exclusively kids' terms (or parents > talking to their kids) for hot dogs; adults would pretty much never > talk about weenies in the US. Disagree. We occasionally use one or the other of those terms at our child-free house, and many grown-up usages are readily found by Google. Here are a few: http://www.johnsonville.com/home/products/smoked/natural-casing-wien ers.html http://atlasobscura.com/places/wieners-circle-mro http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/guy-fieri/hot-wieners-rhode-islan d-style-recipe/index.html (watch the line break) and of course: http://www.reedberry.com/wienermobile.html > I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE bologna/baloney > is a cold cut meat, almost exclusively eaten in sandwiches, and closer > in nature/usage to a much downscale pastrami, mortadella, or salami > than to anything that would be called a sausage or hot dog. It's a sausage before it's sliced. That should be obvious from looking at the slices, or if necessary go look at an unsliced bologna at a deli counter. Bologna and wieners are seldom called sausages for the same reason that mortadella, salami, andouille, and chorizo are seldom called sausages. That doesn't mean that they aren't sausages. > Certainly in the vaguest technical terms one could call a full salami > or baloney a sausage, but that's way, way further from day-to-dayl AmE > usage than even something as rare as calling a hot dog a sausage is. > Given the lack of BrE usage you note, I can't see why it even entered > the conversation. I believe Tootsie mentioned it first in a different subthread. Blame her. > FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly > spelled baloney) as a food is completely unrelated. Golognese sauce [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Presumably they're named after the same location, but aside from that > they're completely unrelated. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE >> bologna/baloney is a cold cut meat, almost exclusively eaten in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that mortadella, salami, andouille, and chorizo are seldom called > sausages. That doesn't mean that they aren't sausages. I think that bologna was brought up because its taste is fairly similar to that of a frankfurter, and yes, it is a sausage before being sliced for cold cuts. Whether the term "sausage" is added to the name depends on the language spoken. In Latvian, bologna's name translates as "tea sausage", and salami (the dry kind) is "smoke sausage". SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE >> bologna/baloney [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I believe Tootsie mentioned it first in a different subthread. Blame > her. Fine by me, John. I /did/ mention sausage somewhere. To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things are sausages whether they're called that in day-to-day AmE usage or not. Like most people in AUE, I try to be accurate/complete in what I say. Please ignore those times when I don't succeed. Note that I've argued (with someone, in days past) the sausage-ness of hot dogs and bologna. I lost the argument. SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. > > sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Note that I've argued (with someone, in days past) the sausage-ness of > hot dogs and bologna. I lost the argument. FWIW, I didn't question the mention of "sausage". My take on the sausage-ness of hot dogs was posted upthread: I think hot dogs are technically sausages, but very few Americans would normally refer to them as such without some prompting or leading questions. In article <24ad4acf-8319-4c49-acb8-eea9af7bef9e@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, > I think > hot dogs are technically sausages, but very few Americans would > normally refer to them as such without some prompting or leading > questions. I agree on both 8-) But having spent more than a little time in Germany, I know what a wide range of food Wurst includes. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things >> are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> of >> hot dogs and bologna. I lost the argument. > FWIW, I didn't question the mention of "sausage". > > My take on the sausage-ness of hot dogs was posted upthread: I think > hot dogs are technically sausages, but very few Americans would > normally refer to them as such without some prompting or leading > questions. I don't disagree with that. However, here in AUE, discussions of such things are common. We analyze (to the extreme?) for the sake of (take your choice): analysis itself accuracy teaching others showing off having something to say widening the discussion reminding other AUEers that we're still alive Feel free to add to that list. I've probably skipped some important points. SignatureMaria Conlon > sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > widening the discussion > reminding other AUEers that we're still alive I agree, though I remain confused as to why this is addressed to me-- something's gotten lost in the conversation. You said in the quoted excerpt: : To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain : things are sausages whether they're called that in day-to-day : AmE usage or not." That's where my puzzlement begins. The first sentence there seems to imply that I asked why you mentioned sausages, or somehow objected to such. To the best of my knowledge, I never did either. In my post above starting "FWIW", I was attempting to clarify the point by saying not only "I didn't question the mention of 'sausage'" but also pointing out that I had personally been engaged in sausage- related discussion quite happily earlier in the thread. I did have a question about the relevancy of bologna, which is a separate issue that's since been clarified. > > sjdevn...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > imply that I asked why you mentioned sausages, or somehow objected to > such. To the best of my knowledge, I never did either. Four levels upthread you wrote: <quote> I don't understand why bologna was brought up. In AmE bologna/baloney is a cold cut meat, almost exclusively eaten in sandwiches, and closer in nature/usage to a much downscale pastrami, mortadella, or salami than to anything that would be called a sausage or hot dog. Certainly in the vaguest technical terms one could call a full salami or baloney a sausage, but that's way, way further from day-to-dayl AmE usage than even something as rare as calling a hot dog a sausage is. Given the lack of BrE usage you note, I can't see why it even entered the conversation. </quote> SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:16:31 UTC, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > </quote> Yes I did. The full message at: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/5cc22fa38d4d8517?dmode=source I'm very confused now, as you seem to have snipped the part of my post that this quote was relevant to ("I did have a question about the relevancy of bologna, which is a separate issue that's since been clarified.") I've just gone back and reread the thread surrounding the post you quoted, too, and it's not helping me understand one bit. Here's what I see: Nick had written a message about hot dog lingo and the word "weenie" when he suddenly (and surprisingly, to me) threw in a seeming non- sequitor about bologna being an unknown term that he'd guess was a form of pasta sauce. I responded with a clarification about "weenie" being mainly a kid's term in the US, followed by the above quote wondering how bologna entered the conversation seemingly out of nowhere, followed by a clarification that in AmE bolognese is a pasta sauce, while bologna is a cold cut. Nick responded that it was because it'd been widely referenced elsewhere in the thread, and a number of others chimed in with reasons to discuss bologna. Maria followed up with: > To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things are > sausages whether they're called that in day-to-day AmE usage or not. I read this as Maria believing that I had asked her why she mentioned "sausage" in the thread. That confuses me because: (a) Prior to that post, I'd never addressed Maria in the thread, and (b) I'd never questioned why "sausage" was mentioned to anyone else, either; on the contrary, I'd been engaged in such discussion myself. I did have one followup to a reply to Maria, but it just deepens the mystery as it's on the topic of sausage and is largely in agreement with her: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/36dfcd43ef36cbea?dmode=source I did have one followup to a reply to Maria, but it just deepens the mystery as it's on the topic of sausage and is largely in agreement with her: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/36dfcd43ef36cbea?dmode=source Cutting to the chase: Apparenly, I misread your posts(s) or somehow got confused as to who said what. However, you did say (unless the >>>s were wrong) the following: >>> Certainly in the vaguest technical terms one could call a full >>> salami [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> entered >>> the conversation. In context, I took that as a question on your part as to why sausage was brought up. Thus, I later posted this: > To "sjdevnull": Why did I mention "sausage"? Because certain things > are > sausages whether they're called that in day-to-day AmE usage or not. > Like most people in AUE, I try to be accurate/complete in what I say. > Please ignore those times when I don't succeed. This could go on and on, but I'm willing to forget the whole thing if you are. (It's probably getting boring to the Dear Readers.) SignatureMaria Conlon > <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > -- > Maria Conlon Certainly, though I'll also add that after seeing it quoted alone like this my final sentence above is an atrocious abuse of the English language (out of context, it's entirely unclear what "it" refers to) and I can see how it was misinterpreted. My apologies for that. >FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly >spelled baloney) as a food is completely unrelated. Have we forgotten the Oscar Mayer jingle so soon? My bologna has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R. My bologna has a second name, it's M-A-Y-E-R. I love to eat it every day, And if you ask me "Why" I'll say, 'Cause Oscar Mayer has a way With B-O-L-O-G-N-A. (I found the stuff utterly inedible after about age 5.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 Garrett Wollman filted: >>FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly >>spelled baloney) as a food is completely unrelated. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >(I found the stuff utterly inedible after about age 5.) For countries where the ad wasn't run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmPRHJd3uHI ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Garrett Wollman filted: >>> FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmPRHJd3uHI I can't decide whether that was for or against the product. SignatureJames > >FWIW, in AmE "Bolognese" is a pasta sauce. Bologna (more commonly > >spelled baloney) as a food is completely unrelated. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > (I found the stuff utterly inedible after about age 5.) I had a bologna and sliced cheddar sandwich on a baguette for lunch today. It was delicious. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > (I found the stuff utterly inedible after about age 5.) > > I had a bologna and sliced cheddar sandwich on a baguette for lunch > today. It was delicious. Like hot dogs, much of the standard bologna these days is made with mechanically-separated poultry of one sort or another, rather than good old pork like when I was lad. I never really cared for the all-beef versions of either. <http://www.kraftrecipes.com/Products/ProductInfoDisplay.aspx?SiteId=1&P roduct=4470000857> Brian SignatureDay 365 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project "Default User" sigged: > Brian > > Day 365 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project Happy anniversary. (Note that it's said that the first year is the most difficult.) SignatureMaria > "Default User" sigged: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Happy anniversary. (Note that it's said that the first year is the > most difficult.) Some on rec.arts.tv were hoping that this would mean a return to grouchy ways. I've tried to explain to them in the past that it's not a joke or an elaborate prank. Brian SignatureDay 365 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> "Default User" sigged: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Brian If they see your marginally grumpy post in "Ukadians redux" you may be in for a re-start. SignatureFrank ess > > > "Default User" sigged: > > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > grouchy ways. I've tried to explain to them in the past that it's > > not a joke or an elaborate prank. > If they see your marginally grumpy post in "Ukadians redux" you may > be in for a re-start. I've also had to explain in the past the disagreeing with someone, or even criticizing them, is not being grouchy. I don't seen anything in that post that would qualify. Brian SignatureDay 365 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> > Hot dogs in America are a particular type of sausage*. They are most >> > commonly served in a long bread roll, but that's not a necessary or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >a hot dog. Or maybe a few other names. A hot dog in a bun is >sometimes called a frankfurter. The hot dog that is inside the bun can be termed a frankfurter, but the combination seldom is, IME. A frankfurter is usually the sausage part only, IME. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > *It sounds unusual to my ear to use the word sausage in reference to a > hot dog, though they certainly fit under that umbrella. I wouldn't > expect an American to refer to a hot dog as a sausage, though. If there were a hot dog not-in-a-bun sitting on the counter, I would not call it a sausage, I would call it a sausage. If I were tasked to list types of sausages, hot dog would probably be on the list, though depending on which word came to mind first, I might list frankfurter or one of the other synonyms instead. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:48:27 UTC, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If there were a hot dog not-in-a-bun sitting on the counter, I would > not call it a sausage, I would call it a sausage. I assume you mean "I would not call it a hot dog, I would call it a sausage". You're American? If you have a cookout and you were serving hamburgers and hot dogs (in buns), would you say that you're putting burgers and sausages on the grill? Or do they become hot dogs in anticipation of the waiting bun? Googling around for "shopping list hot dogs", I see a lot of things like: http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Grilled-Hot-Dogs-with-Mango-Chutney -and-Red-Onion-Relish-238792 http://www.whatsfordinner.net/GroceryList/BBQ-Hot-Dogs-Shopping.html enumerating "hot dogs" and "hot dog buns" as separate items, which is what I would have expected. Whole Foods refers to "franks", but none of the hits I looked at call them "sausages". And http://www.hotdogchicagostyle.com/makeyourown.php lists the ingredients explicitly, with "The Hot Dog" and "Poppyseed Bun" as distinct items. About the former, it says: "The Hot Dog A Chicago Style Hot Dog is a traditionally all beef and contains no fillers. Don't even think of using a Hot Dog made from turkey, chicken or pork. Some all beef Hot Dogs are "Kosher". If you prefer a Kosher Dog, look for the Kosher symbol (K) or (U) on the packaging." >I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >all. Or has Farmelo simply blundered in his writing, as he has so often >done in this book? I take my life in my hands here, since this one's been done to death in the past, but I'd have no trouble in understanding a hot dog here to be the familiar "sausage inna bun", usually a frankfurter-style sausage-shaped reconstituted smoked meat item, boiled, not fried, in a long, usually white, roll, with optional mustard and ketchup, as sold here (UK) by street vendors and in downmarket cafes. He might, possibly, mean frankfurters on their own without the bun: I don't know exactly what was available in Copenhagen in 1926. What he won't mean (or I'd be very surprised if he did) is the default British sausage, which is unsmoked, is fried, and is not usually called a hot dog. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens filted: >>I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >(or I'd be very surprised if he did) is the default British sausage, >which is unsmoked, is fried, and is not usually called a hot dog. Let's not rule out the possibility that he's talking about a plate of *actual* dogs, served hot....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Wood Avens filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > *actual* > dogs, served hot....r Let's _do_ rule that out. Please. SignatureMaria Conlon >> Wood Avens filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Let's _do_ rule that out. Please. Why do you think dinner is called "chow" http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/breeds/Chow_Chow_(Rough).htm >>> Wood Avens filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Why do you think dinner is called "chow" Because "chow" is a term meaning (among othr things) "food." How that came about may be interesting or not. (I didn't look it up, in any case.) > http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/breeds/Chow_Chow_(Rough).htm And as for chow dogs, they look nice and are handy/helpful. What they don't look like is "good food." (And yes, I got your joke. I even chuckled.) SignatureMaria Conlon > I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The > Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a sausage, at all. Or has Farmelo simply blundered in his writing, as > he has so often done in this book? You seem to have added to his blunders in the quote. (Oops). I'm not sure why you assume that the hot dogs are sausages. For me, a hot dog is a frankfurter sausage IN a bread roll. Were I reading the book, that's what I would assume. I know of no Brit who would call a sausage a hot dog unless it were of the frankfurter style. SignatureRay UK >> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that's what I would assume. I know of no Brit who would call a sausage a hot > dog unless it were of the frankfurter style. Same in Australia. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Same in Australia. In New Zealand a hot dog is a saveloy fried in batter - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saveloy But as far as I know Farmelo is not a New Zealander. Apteryx >>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Apteryx I've never been sure of the distinction between a saveloy and a frankfurt(er) although we used to have both when I was a kid. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I've never been sure of the distinction between a saveloy and a > frankfurt(er) although we used to have both when I was a kid. The article on saveloy linked above suggests that "saveloy" replaced "frankfurter" in Australia from World War I, but I remember both terms being used in South Australia for slightly different things, during the 1950s. In fact, we always used the term "frankfurt" not "frankfurter". SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I've never been sure of the distinction between a saveloy and a > frankfurt(er) although we used to have both when I was a kid. My definition of a saveloy has a red casing and is already cooked. They are brought to the boil to reheat them for eating. The small red saveloys known as "cheerios" in NZ when I was a lass equate to the cocktail franks I see in Victoria that can be red or frankfurter tan. But if savs and franks aren't siblings they are at least first cousins. I suspect they are both far too closely related to those plastic covered cooked petfood sausages. >>>>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > saveloys known as "cheerios" in NZ when I was a lass equate to the > cocktail franks I see in Victoria that can be red or frankfurter tan. So your frankfurters are also pre-cooked, as ours (USA) are? > But if savs and franks aren't siblings they are at least first cousins. > I suspect they are both far too closely related to those plastic covered > cooked petfood sausages. Too offal for words, wot? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > My definition of a saveloy has a red casing and is already cooked. Yes, I definitely remember saveloys here having a red casing, as opposed to the orangey casing of a frankfurt(er). I don't remember a pre-cooked distinction, but it's a long time ago, and I wasn't doing the cooking :) --- Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The >>>>> Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >I've never been sure of the distinction between a saveloy and a >frankfurt(er) although we used to have both when I was a kid. In my experience, the term "saveloy" was used for a much larger sausage. Thicker, anyway. Battered savs, however, appear to be normal frankfurts dipped in batter. I think these are some times sold as "dagwood dogs" (onna stick) at fairgrounds and the like. Cocktail frankfurts are sometimes humorously called "little boys". SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Apteryx wrote on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:28:37 +1300: > In New Zealand a hot dog is a saveloy fried in batter - > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saveloy > But as far as I know Farmelo is not a New Zealander. Now "saveloy" is a word that I've not seen in a long time. I tend to confuse it with Savoy (cabbage). SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not Murray Arnow skrev: > I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The > Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," where > he writes about the goings on in Copenhagen, circa 1926. He makes this > statement, "In the evenings, most young physicists at the institute Like > to relax in the cinema or in their lodgings wit a plate of hot dogs and > a few beer." > I assume these hot dogs Farmelo speaks of are sausages, but calling them > hot dogs is strange to me. It's Danish - except that today we write it "hotdog". The first pølsevogn (directly: sausage car) came in Copenhagen in 1920, and today they are all over the country, and everyone knows a hotdog. The basic variant has a neonred, boiled sausage in a small sliced bread, and as topping one can have mustard, ketchup, cucumber (sliced with vinegar and stuff), raw or roasted onion. Picture here of a typical Danish hotdog: http://www.bbq.fiedler.dk/hotdog.jpeg There are other sausages one may order instead (frankfurter, a special Danich kind, "medisterpølse") and they may be roasted. If you just say "hotdog with everything", you'll get one like the picture. They have many alternative names, and an expert pølsevogn salesman will recognize maybe thirty different ways of ordering - not all of them delicate. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Murray Arnow skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >salesman will recognize maybe thirty different ways of ordering - >not all of them delicate. Thanks for the explanation, Bertel. What added to my puzzlement was my uncertainty in knowing if Farmelo used a known UK usage anachronistically. The chap's book is replete with errors on trivial and some not so trivial points, so I can only hope that Farmelo's "hot dogs" are the Danish "hotdogs." Funny how Hot Dogs and Sausage Dogs refer to 2 entirely different things : P > Funny how Hot Dogs and Sausage Dogs refer to 2 entirely different > things : P I can't think of a meaning for "sausage dog" that "hot dog" doesn't also carry, thought the converse is not true: both are nicknames for the dachshund. Only "hot dog" refers to the frankfurter sausage. > The first pølsevogn > (directly: sausage car) came in Copenhagen in 1920, and today they are > all over the country, and everyone knows a hotdog. The basic variant has > a neonred, boiled sausage in a small sliced bread, and as topping one > can have mustard, ketchup, cucumber (sliced with vinegar and stuff), ObUsage: the last-named is "pickle slices" or "pickle chips" in AmE. What are they called elsewhere? > raw or roasted onion. AmE: grilled onion (cooked until soft on a grill, meaning in this case a hot metal cooking surface) > Picture here of a typical Danish hotdog: > > http://www.bbq.fiedler.dk/hotdog.jpeg SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > > can have mustard, ketchup, cucumber (sliced with vinegar and stuff), > ObUsage: the last-named is "pickle slices" or "pickle chips" in AmE. > What are they called elsewhere? Okay. Actually we call it (translated) "cucumber salad". We use "salat" about several different ways of preparing vegetables with stuff. > > raw or roasted onion. > AmE: grilled onion (cooked until soft on a grill, meaning in this case a > hot metal cooking surface) Pølsevogne do not serve soft, grilled onions. Well, I could not swear that you can't find one that does, but it is not standard and can't be expected. I think it would taste great. The variety we use for hotdogs, are factory made and quite dry, stiff and brown. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that you can't find one that does, but it is not standard and can't be > expected. I think it would taste great. Ah-I see. Grilled onions are reasonably common with large American "food trucks" that do a variety of things on the grill (hamburgers, cheese steak sandwiches, etc.) -- but not at a hotdog cart. > The variety we use for hotdogs, are factory made and quite dry, stiff > and brown. It sounds a bit like the stuff that goes into a "traditional" (i.e. mid-20th century "comfort food") green-bean casserole that some people feel is mandatory at Thanksgiving dinner. Here's a recipe with pictures, though the canonical brand for the onions is Durkee's rather than Campbells as used here. http://www.cookingforengineers.com/recipe/9/Campbells-Green-Bean-Casserole SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > > The variety we use for hotdogs, are factory made and quite dry, stiff > > and brown. > It sounds a bit like the stuff that goes into a "traditional" (i.e. > mid-20th century "comfort food") green-bean casserole that some people > feel is mandatory at Thanksgiving dinner. It's close, but our onions are more roasted. They are actually not very good. This is the best picture I could find: http://www.superbest.dk/produkt/ristede-loeg SignatureBertel, Denmark >Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.superbest.dk/produkt/ristede-loeg I posted link to a picture elsewhere. It was an Asian-style fried onion, which you can buy here. They come in screw-top plastic jars. They are onion-sweet and nicely crunchy. Quite edible on their own as a naughty snack. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. On Jan 27, 8:10 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Bertel, Denmark Cucumber slices with vinegar are not always pickles. It could be fresh cucumbers sliced into a bowl, with a vinegar-and-sugar mix poured over the slices; the bowl will be left alone for some hours (up to a whole day) and then the contents are served as a salad. Pickles happen when cucumbers, whole or sliced, are put into a canning jar and hot brine is poured in, with various herbs/spices added; the jar is then sealed and stored. Pickles come in several varieties: sweet, sour, dill are the main ones, each of which has several subvarieties. Cece skrev: > Cucumber slices with vinegar are not always pickles. It could be > fresh cucumbers sliced into a bowl, with a vinegar-and-sugar mix > poured over the slices; the bowl will be left alone for some hours (up > to a whole day) and then the contents are served as a salad. That is precisely what we use, and we call it "agurkesalat" (cucumber salad). > Pickles happen when cucumbers, whole or sliced, are put into a canning jar and > hot brine is poured in, with various herbs/spices added; the jar is > then sealed and stored. Pickles come in several varieties: sweet, > sour, dill are the main ones, each of which has several subvarieties. We know that as "pickles" in Denmark. My mother used to make some when I was a child, and it tasted just great. It's not very common though. SignatureBertel, Denmark > It's Danish - except that today we write it "hotdog". The first > pølsevogn (directly: sausage car) came in Copenhagen in 1920, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.bbq.fiedler.dk/hotdog.jpeg Mmmm. But I don't remember them being called hot dogs when I were a lass in the early '80s. As I recall, we asked for pølser (pølse?). Are they now called hot dogs, or am I misremembering and they always were? SignatureSML Sara Lorimer skrev: > Mmmm. But I don't remember them being called hot dogs when I were a lass > in the early '80s. As I recall, we asked for pølser (pølse?). Are they > now called hot dogs, or am I misremembering and they always were? You can and could order just a pølse. If you order a pølse med det hele, you actually get a hotdog. Here are two pictures of typical pølsevogne. They are motorized and on wheels so they can be moved easily. Some stands are larger and fixed with a small compartment for customers. http://natmad.homepage.dk/1.JPG http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Danish_Hot_dog_stand.jpg The first picture shows the plastic bottles with fluids that can be splattered onto the sausage. SignatureBertel, Denmark > You can and could order just a pølse. If you order a pølse med > det hele, you actually get a hotdog. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The first picture shows the plastic bottles with fluids that can > be splattered onto the sausage. Google Maps indicates that the pølsevogne I frequented is no longer there (or maybe it was just not there the moment the van was passing by). I did, however, find someone looking out the window of my old dining room: <http://tinyurl.com/yhs759r> or <http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=33+stockhol msgade,+copenhagen&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.631106,58.447266&ie=UT F8&hq=&hnear=Stockholmsgade+33,+2100,+K%C3%B8benhavn,+Denmark&t=h&layer= c&cbll=55.690972,12.57899&panoid=lmBLzXifWCh73nd5tgEDIA&cbp=12,20.82,,0, -20.64&ll=55.690908,12.579153&spn=0.014441,0.032573&z=15> Why so glum, chum? It's a beautiful day! SignatureSML Sara Lorimer skrev: > Google Maps indicates that the pølsevogne I frequented is no longer > there (or maybe it was just not there the moment the van was passing > by). I did, however, find someone looking out the window of my old > dining room: > <http://tinyurl.com/yhs759r> Okay. That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Sara Lorimer skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. A balcony facing a street is not a public area? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela skrev: > > That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark > > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. > A balcony facing a street is not a public area? You are not allowed to enter the balcony. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Sara Lorimer skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. Really? In the UK, there is no restriction on taking photos *from* a public place, no matter what you are point the camera *at*. To take photographs from a private place requires the owner's permission, but it is not strictly against any laws I can think of. SignatureDavid the Omrud skrev: > > That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark > > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. > Really? Yes, really. > In the UK, there is no restriction on taking photos *from* a > public place, no matter what you are point the camera *at*. To take > photographs from a private place requires the owner's permission, but it > is not strictly against any laws I can think of. Okay. There is no restriction on photographing from a private area as such. You cannot enter it legally without permission, and the same restriction for the photographing as above applies. SignatureBertel, Denmark >> Sara Lorimer skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Really? In the UK, there is no restriction on taking photos *from* a >public place, no matter what you are point the camera *at*. A certain number of police do seem to think otherwise, in those areas that are supposed to be somehow prone to acts of terrorism. HMG is discussing making a ban formal, and a petition against this is now closed. http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Photography/ >To take >photographs from a private place requires the owner's permission, but it >is not strictly against any laws I can think of. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark >>> it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > closed. > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Photography/ Similar laws apply in a number of countries in Europe. My mother had a run-in with the cops in Italy when she took a photo of a village square. She was interrogated for half an hour and they confiscated her film. It transpired that the problem was there happened to be a police car parked somewhere on the far side of the square that you could barely even see, but it is strictly forbidden to photograph police vehicles or property. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark >>> it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > closed. > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Photography/ I'm not aware of any move by the the UK government to make a change to the law. That petition doesn't state what it's against, specifically, and it closed in August 2007. It's certainly true that many individual police officers have stopped innocent people taking photos, but they almost never have any legal basis for doing so. This comes up regularly in uk.legal.moderated. Here's an offical statement from the Met in December 2009, referred to in the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/15/yates-police-terrorism-powers-photography http://tinyurl.com/ye6rkqk In a circular to all Metropolitan borough commanders, John Yates, the assistant commissioner for specialist operations, advocated a "commonsense" approach and reminded officers there were no laws to stop people photographing buildings. "Unless there is a very good reason, people taking photographs should not be stopped," wrote Yates, who is Britain's senior counter-terrorism officer. He noted complaints from members of the public, many of whom had been stopped under the Terrorism Act. Section 44 says police do not need suspicion to stop and search people within certain designated areas. "The complaints have included allegations that people have been told that they cannot photograph certain public buildings, that they cannot photograph police officers or police community support officers, and that taking photographs is, in itself, suspicious," Yates said. "An enormous amount of concern has been generated about these matters." "These are important yet intrusive powers. They form a vital part of our overall tactics in deterring and detecting terrorist attacks. We must use these powers wisely. Public confidence in our ability to do so rightly depends upon your common sense." SignatureDavid >> Sara Lorimer skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >photographs from a private place requires the owner's permission, but it >is not strictly against any laws I can think of. What if you aim your camera, equipped with a telephoto lens, at a couple's bed, when it is occupied? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Sara Lorimer skrev: >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What if you aim your camera, equipped with a telephoto lens, at a > couple's bed, when it is occupied? Broadly, there are no laws about photographing anything which a member of the public could see from public place. UK law concerns itself with what is forbidden - if it isn't forbidden then it's legal. If the couple have left their curtains open and made themselves visible from the road, then I suspect there's no law being broken (but I'm not a lawyer). The UK tabloid papers are full of candid photos of celebrities and royals taken from huge distances with long lenses. As long as the photographer is in a public place, there's no law against it. SignatureDavid >>>> Sara Lorimer skrev: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >royals taken from huge distances with long lenses. As long as the >photographer is in a public place, there's no law against it. Good points. I caught your "broadly", BTW. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Sara Lorimer skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. That strikes me as similar to the Quaker who surprises a burglar, raises his gun, and says "I would not harm thee for the world, but thee is standing where I am about to shoot". Google didn't photograph a person. They photographed a building, and the person happened to be there. And because of the way that they take their pictures, they could actually credibly say that in court. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |gospel wisdom about English usage Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding. | Merriam-Webster's Dictionary kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > > That picture is an example of Google breaking the law. In Denmark > > it is prohibited just to photograph a person that is not in a > > public area. They have taken thousands of illegal photos. > That strikes me as similar to the Quaker who surprises a burglar, > raises his gun, and says "I would not harm thee for the world, but > thee is standing where I am about to shoot". Google didn't photograph > a person. They photographed a building, and the person happened to be > there. And because of the way that they take their pictures, they > could actually credibly say that in court. Comparison seldom or never help clarify anything. As a rule they lead to a prolonged discussion about the quality of the comparison. Your argument is another thing. If a person takes legal action against Google, a judge vil have to evaluate the picture. If the person is "sufficiently unimportant for the motive", the photographing will be deemed legal - for the specific photo. Some Danish lawyers have looked at some cases and announced that they probably would be easy to win. SignatureBertel, Denmark > I am reading a rather badly written book by Graham Farmelo, "The > Strangest Man--The Hidden Life of Paul Dirac, Mystic of the Atom," [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > often > done in this book? We've discussed hot dogs before (think Areff), but I don't remember what my opinion was then, sausage-wise. Be that as it may, There is no actual* way That I would call a hot dog A "sausage" any day. *substitute "effing" for "actual" if you like. Sorry for the poor copy-catting of Mr. Hogg. If hot dogs were spicier, "sausage" just might work. But since they're not, then they're not sausages. Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they probably are, and probably rightly so.) At family Bar-B-Qs, the brats are the first to be gone. Me, personally: I prefer an overdone (blackened) hot dog. Well, that, or a well-done hamburbger. Onion-free, of course. In order of preference: 1. Mustard only 2. Ketchup/catsup with mustard (Mayo does not belong on a hot dog or a hamburger.) SignatureMaria Conlon >We've discussed hot dogs before (think Areff), but I don't remember what >my opinion was then, sausage-wise. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >If hot dogs were spicier, "sausage" just might work. But since they're >not, then they're not sausages. In BrE "hot dogs (cylindrical meaty things)" and frankfurters are both breeds of sausage. Spiciness or blandness does not affect that classification. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Maria Conlon wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > breeds of sausage. Spiciness or blandness does not affect that > classification. I'm sure you're right (and not just for BrE). However, my notion about spiciness is a personal belief, and thus should not be judged harshly since "personal beliefs" are like "religious beliefs," and are, as such, untouchable. (Or not.) SignatureMaria Conlon Even I don't know whether I'm being serious or not. > > Maria Conlon wrote, in part: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > since "personal beliefs" are like "religious beliefs," and are, as such, > untouchable. Explain "vienna sausages" that come in a can. Bologna is bland. Do you consider it not a sausage? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> > Maria Conlon wrote, in part: >> > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Explain "vienna sausages" that come in a can. Bologna is bland. Do > you consider it not a sausage? Explaining "vienna sausages": They are small; they are not very spicy; they are cute; I liked them when I was a kid; I don't buy them now; they look like they'd taste better than they do. (That may not "explain" vienna sausages, but they may not be explainable, or even respectable. I like "potted meat" better than viennas (and it's not sausage, either). Bologna (aka: baloney): Technically may be "sausage," but I don't ever call it that. Even "ring bologna" (or "a ring of bologna") looks more sausage-like than sliced bologna, but it's still doesn't qualify as "sausage" to me. I don't call any sliced sandwich meat "sausage." It's bologna or salami, or whatever. Not "sausage" -- just lunchmeat (or "lunch meat"). Note: Sausage usually must be cooked for a meal; lunch meat is ready-to-eat (unless you like fried bologna sandwiches, which I do). By the way: Remember Popeye saying "Salami, salami, baloney"? If not, there's this from "Dave's Archives": "Which reminds me of a cartoon which appeared regularly on Popeye Theater on the Saturday mornings of my boyhood, in which Popeye is Ali Baba and the magic door to the cave of the treasures of the 40 thieves opens with his chant, "Open, sez me!" And in the course of his trespass into the cave of the Arab bandits, to the traditional Islamic salutation, Popeye replies, "Salami, salami, baloney," which is an artifact of ethnic humor dating from the period when Arabs were funny. This period began in the 1930s and was already in decline when the Three Stooges filmed, Malice in the Palace, an inferior Shemp vehicle in which the boys undertake to recover the 100 carat diamond stolen from the tomb of Rooten-tooten. http://www.davemcbride.com/Rave%20Archives/9-27-01.htm SignatureMaria Conlon, Possibly full of baloney. Maria Conlon filted: >And in the course of his trespass >into the cave of the Arab bandits, to the traditional Islamic [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >http://www.davemcbride.com/Rave%20Archives/9-27-01.htm That period was still in evidence in 1963 when William Peter Blatty (yes, he who would later write "The Exorcist") put out a comic novel called "John Goldfarb, Please Come Home", adapted in 1965 into a movie starring Richard Crenna, Peter Ustinov and Shirley Maclaine (and which I've been trying with no luck to find on home video for some years now)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Maria Conlon filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Maclaine (and which I've been trying with no luck to find on home > video for some years now)....r I found a DVD of "The Macomber Affair" for a friend. It seemed not to be otherwise available, but the fellow who sold it to me had a long list of such films. It was clearly taped from a broadcast and transferred to disc. I paid through PayPal. I'm not finding the site with the list, and haven't had any response to my email to the address they have for him, but I'll keep trying. I don't know if this should be in the "Theft of Intellectual Property" thread. It's OK when we do it for research purposes, though, isn't it? William Peter Blatty story: When he was a freelance writer in the mid-late 1950s he did an article on my father, who was at that time Director of Admissions and Registration for the University of Southern California. As part of Blatty's research he wangled an invitation to dinner at our house in Torrance, south of Los Angeles. I was in the Air Force then, and missed the occasion. The article was published in the L.A. Times Sunday magazine supplement. I understand Blatty actually seemed to need the meal, and that he was somewhat disappointed, as had been other reporters before him, that there wasn't any Elastic Admissions Standards scandal to be had (with regard to athletes, of course). SignatureFrank ess > Explaining "vienna sausages": They are small; they are not very spicy; > they are cute; I liked them when I was a kid; I don't buy them now; they > look like they'd taste better than they do. The entire attraction of those little red sausages - I assume that we're talking about the same thing - lies in the tomato sauce. Ketchup, in your language. Children put on a great deal. Adults don't use enough to disguise the taste of the "meat". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan filted: >> Explaining "vienna sausages": They are small; they are not very spicy; >> they are cute; I liked them when I was a kid; I don't buy them now; they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >your language. Children put on a great deal. Adults don't use enough to >disguise the taste of the "meat". We're *not* talking about the same thing...I've never had vienna sausages with ketchup, not even as a child, and I used to gobble the things down when I was little...there's no "taste of the meat" to disguise, only "taste of the preservatives"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Peter Moylan filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >little...there's no "taste of the meat" to disguise, only "taste of the >preservatives"....r Aw, I liked 'em. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs filted: >>We're *not* talking about the same thing...I've never had vienna sausages with >>ketchup, not even as a child, and I used to gobble the things down when I was >>little...there's no "taste of the meat" to disguise, only "taste of the >>preservatives"....r > >Aw, I liked 'em. As did I, nitrites and all, but *ketchup*?... WIWAL, another treat was sardine sandwiches on white bread...I don't think I ate another sardine from about age ten to age forty-something, when it suddenly occurred to me to try them again, and I immediately fell back into the old habit...the main differences now, though, are that I don't care for the white bread, and I now seek out rather than avoid the sardines packed in tomato sauce, mustard, etc (before they had to be in oil).... Mustard sardines on pumpernickel are a treat I had to grow up to learn to appreciate....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Chuck Riggs filted: >>> We're *not* talking about the same thing...I've never had vienna sausages with [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Mustard sardines on pumpernickel are a treat I had to grow up to learn to > appreciate....r Toast. You always eat sardines mashed on toast. Or at least, that's what we ate when we were children, and which I still treat myself to sometimes. It must be very difficult to mash the sardines properly on untoasted bread. Some people practically turn green at the very thought of eating sardines. They don't know what they're missing. About the hot dogs - I rarely ate them, even as a child, but never liked ketchup. I liked mustard on my junk meat. I used to love those vienna sausages, but at them straight from the can, with no condiments at all. SignatureCheryl Cheryl filted: >>WIWAL, another treat was sardine sandwiches on white bread...I don't think I ate >> another sardine from about age ten to age forty-something, when it suddenly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >It must be very difficult to mash the sardines properly on untoasted bread. Wouldn't know...I don't mash them....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? <snip> >I used to love those vienna >sausages, but at them straight from the can, with no condiments at all. Assuming an "at" to an "I ate" change, good woman. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >As did I, nitrites and all, but *ketchup*?... Jackie Gleason used to do a routine about the absurdity of putting ketchup on a hot dog. That notion applies in triplicate to a Vienna sausage, I'd say. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE On Jan 28, 2:35 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:26:03 -0500, "Maria Conlon" > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > breeds of sausage. Spiciness or blandness does not affect that > classification. I think if asked "is a hot dog a sausage", most (though not all) Americans would say "yes", maybe qualifying the answer to something along the lines of "yeah, technically, I guess". I also think most Americans would never refer to a hot dog as a sausage unprompted. You might be able to use leading questions to elicit that word, but it's not really natural American English (in my experience) to call a hot dog a sausage. > On Jan 28, 2:35 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 14:26:03 -0500, "Maria Conlon" > > > > <conlonma...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > If hot dogs were spicier, "sausage" just might work. But since > > > they're not, then they're not sausages. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Americans would say "yes", maybe qualifying the answer to something > along the lines of "yeah, technically, I guess". I think it would have been a bit more solid back in the days when natural casing dogs were the norm. Most sold these days are "skinless" and seem a bit less like sausages. In the US, Johnsonville sells a variety of natural casing hotdogs where the wieners are connected, so it's like the old cartoons where the dog (a real one) grabs a string of wieners and runs off with it. Brian SignatureDay 360 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project Maria Conlon skrev: > If hot dogs were spicier, "sausage" just might work. But since they're > not, then they're not sausages. As you have later agreed (I think), "sausage" just describes the shape and production method. The common Danish sausage is of very poor quality. If I eat too many, my stomach hurts - and it's not from being overfilled. Frankfurter and medister are much better. I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and there was a world of difference. SignatureBertel, Denmark > I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and > there was a world of difference. In English that word is "butcher". I like your "slaughter", though, and might adopt it. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >> there was a world of difference. >> > In English that word is "butcher". I like your "slaughter", though, > and might adopt it. Well, there this killer noun "slaughterer". SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Well, there this killer noun "slaughterer". I've probably mentioned this before. Here in Northern Ireland some butchers called themselves "fleshers". I was surprised when I first saw that word on the signs above shop windows and doors. It made sense, though, when I saw that they were selling meat. It appears to be Scottish in origin. All the ones I have seen have renamed themselves as butchers. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >>>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Scottish in origin. All the ones I have seen have renamed themselves as >butchers. Last year, a caller to NPR's "A Way With Words" wanted a more "high-tone" term for this profession...I offered "meaterer" and the possible feminine counterpart "meatress".... There are plenty of them in these parts, but the signs all say "carniceria"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > >>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and > >>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Scottish in origin. All the ones I have seen have renamed themselves as > butchers. In Germany it's Metzger in some parts, Fleischer in others, and there's a third I'm blanking on at the moment. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >>>>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >>>>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > In Germany it's Metzger in some parts, Fleischer in others, and there's > a third I'm blanking on at the moment. Roughly speaking, Schlachter in the north, Fleischer in the east, Metzger in the south-west, Flesichhacker in Austria. SignatureJames >>>>>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >>>>>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Roughly speaking, Schlachter in the north, Fleischer in the east, > Metzger in the south-west, Flesichhacker in Austria. In Upper Austria, at least, "Fleischhacker" is very old-fashioned (wife's grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days is "Fleischhauer". SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>>>> I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and >>>>>>> there was a world of difference. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days > is "Fleischhauer". The map I have was probably drawn when your wife's grandmother was young. Germany has its pre-war borders. SignatureJames > In Upper Austria, at least, "Fleischhacker" is very old-fashioned (wife's > grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days > is "Fleischhauer". That's a blast from the past. The zoo in San Francisco used to be called the The Fleishhacker Zoo. Their website says they changed the official name to "The San Francisco Zoological Gardens" in 1941, but I remember "Fly-shacker" in the 1960s. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> In Upper Austria, at least, "Fleischhacker" is very old-fashioned (wife's >> grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Their website says they changed the official name to "The San Francisco > Zoological Gardens" in 1941, but I remember "Fly-shacker" in the 1960s. And all the dead animals ended up as wieners. SignatureJames >>> In Upper Austria, at least, "Fleischhacker" is very old-fashioned >>> (wife's grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And all the dead animals ended up as wieners. Reminds me of a TV (TW3 ?) take-off of a Wall's Sausages ad. The last line was "Walls - the only thing we don't put in them!" SignatureLes (BrE) > Reminds me of a TV (TW3 ?) take-off of a Wall's Sausages ad. The last line > was "Walls - the only thing we don't put in them!" A: "Walls have ears" B: "Yes I know. I just found one in my sausage" SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> In Upper Austria, at least, "Fleischhacker" is very old-fashioned >> (wife's grandmother would have used it) and the usual word these days [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Francisco Zoological Gardens" in 1941, but I remember "Fly-shacker" > in the 1960s. Interestingly, Google maps still show it as Fleishhacker Zoo. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > > In Germany it's Metzger in some parts, Fleischer in others, and there's > > a third I'm blanking on at the moment. > > Roughly speaking, Schlachter in the north, Fleischer in the east, > Metzger in the south-west, Flesichhacker in Austria. I've been in the middle and southwest more than in other parts, but Schlachter was the one I was blanking on. I haven't shopped for things like that in Austria. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > I've probably mentioned this before. Here in Northern Ireland some > butchers called themselves "fleshers". I was surprised when I first saw > that word on the signs above shop windows and doors. It made sense, > though, when I saw that they were selling meat. It appears to be > Scottish in origin. All the ones I have seen have renamed themselves as > butchers. Isn't "fleischer" a German word for butcher? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email Peter Moylan skrev: > > I used to have a local slaughter who made his own sausages, and > > there was a world of difference. > In English that word is "butcher". Oops, I forgot. > I like your "slaughter", though, and might adopt it. In Danish we only have one word for both, and that is "slagter". I remember an article long ago in a newspaper: Should people worry about a 'slagter' that likes his job? SignatureBertel, Denmark > Peter Moylan skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Should people worry about a 'slagter' that likes his job? As Skitt pointed out, the English for "slagter" is "slaughterer". (Note the extra "er", which in English is an agentive suffix; it's never a plural suffix except in the double plural "brethren".) "Slaughter" is the word for what a slaughterer does. For the most part, though, we use these words only when describing criminal killers or equally unsavoury activities. The word "slaughterer" is almost identical in meaning to "killer", but is perhaps a little nastier. Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Slaughterhouse five" is about an unpleasant subject. "Manslaughter" refers, as its only meaning, to a crime that is not quite as bad as murder, but which does refer to the killing of humans. Only someone with a sick mind, like me, would parse this word as "Man's laughter". The word "butcher" can also be used to describe an outlaw or a war criminal, but that is a secondary use. The primary meaning of this word describes a respectable person whose job is to take cattle or sheep or pigs - and some poultry, now that I think of it, and if available some game, and more rarely even some fish - and turn them into the sort of meat that we would happily put into our ovens and our frying pans and our grillers and so on. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Peter Moylan skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >meat that we would happily put into our ovens and our frying pans and >our grillers and so on. In BrE "slaughter" is used as a term defined in law for the killing of an anima, particularly for food. This is done under regulated conditions in a "slaughterhouse". Some slaughterhouses are named "abattoirs". Examples of Regulations with "slaughter" in the title are here: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/SearchResults.aspx?TYPE=QS&Title=slaughter&Year=&Nu mber=&LegType=All+Legislation "Butcher" is used of a person who cuts up a dead animal for sale. A few butchers in the UK are also slaughterers. A slaughterer needs to be licensed. The welfare and hygiene regulations have been tightened up so much that it is now very difficult for a small-scale slaughter business to function profitably. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >an anima Premature butchery. Replace the "l". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] > "Butcher" is used of a person who cuts up a dead animal for sale. A > few butchers in the UK are also slaughterers. A slaughterer needs to > be licensed. The welfare and hygiene regulations have been tightened > up so much that it is now very difficult for a small-scale slaughter > business to function profitably. And I can assure readers that I've seen it can have a bad effect on both welfare and hygiene. You'd formerly take your animal down the road in the trailer, lead it into a small building, and "Bang!" No stress, no hassle; but now you may have to bounce a hundred miles to a huge killing factory and wait your turn, or get the job done at home. Home killing is, of course, best of all, as long as the slaughterman knows what he's about; but you can't sell the meat. SignatureMike. >[...] >> "Butcher" is used of a person who cuts up a dead animal for sale. A [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >is, of course, best of all, as long as the slaughterman knows what he's >about; but you can't sell the meat. In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits and vegetables to our health, yesterday. After reading the above story, which merely touches on the horrors of slaughter, I think I'll reaffirm my request, today. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs filted: >In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits and >vegetables to our health, yesterday. After reading the above story, >which merely touches on the horrors of slaughter, I think I'll >reaffirm my request, today. Have you no idea of the terror and degradation suffered by a head of cabbage on its way to the table?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Have you no idea of the terror and degradation suffered by a head of cabbage on >its way to the table?...r At least his final end is quick, under a chef's knife. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs filted: >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >At least his final end is quick, under a chef's knife. ObAUE: "final end", eh?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> Chuck Riggs filted: >>> In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > At least his final end is quick, under a chef's knife. Surely the end comes earlier, when the head is cut off. Or are you claiming that the disembodied head continues to live? I've sometimes wondered that about guillotining. How long does the brain continue to have thoughts after the execution? SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > I've sometimes wondered that about guillotining. How long does the brain > continue to have thoughts after the execution? The Straight Dope http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1172/does-the-head-remain-brief ly-conscious-after-decapitation > Surely the end comes earlier, when the head is cut off. Or are you > claiming that the disembodied head continues to live? > > I've sometimes wondered that about guillotining. How long does the > brain continue to have thoughts after the execution? There have been frequent suggestions that a severed head remains alive for a short time after the execution, even that it is capable of showing sensation and emotion. In animal experiments, unconsciousness results some twelve to fourteen seconds after severance or occlusion of the carotid arteries. The human brain has sufficient oxygen for metabolism to continue for about seven seconds after the flow of blood to the head has ended. A study from 1993 concludes that "[i]t may be presumed that the prisoner becomes unconscious within a few seconds, but not immediately after, the spinal cord is severed." William Schabas, _The Death Penalty as Cruel Traetment and Torture_, 1996 In one horrid account, a French scientist slated for execution asked an assistant to count the number of times the scientist blinked his eyes after being guillotined. The assistant counted at least fifteen blinks, about one per second. David Diefendorf, _Amazing...But False!_, 2007 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I've sometimes wondered that about guillotining. How long does the brain >continue to have thoughts after the execution? Enough time for it to direct the head to bow respectfully, three times, to the executioner. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Surely the end comes earlier, when the head is cut off. Or are you > claiming that the disembodied head continues to live? "Disemrooted". Actually, the cabbage stays alive till cooked --and in cole slaw, you're chewing the luckless creature alive. The brassica's tenacity of life is evidenced by its willingness to grow roots from the base when kept in a plastic bag in the fridge, and for the pale inside to turn darker green when exposed to light. Left to itself, a cut cabbage will eventually even make extension growth by consuming its core. So anybody hoping to find a way of eating without killing is probably going to have to stick to minerals. Unpromising, I'd say. SignatureMike. >>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>>> In a message to the cook, I stressed the importance of fruits [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > So anybody hoping to find a way of eating without killing is > probably going to have to stick to minerals. Unpromising, I'd say. When I was a ten-year-old, walking past a cabbage patch without reaching into a cabbage's brain to wrest free a right-handful and then a left-handful for munching along the trail, was impossible. When they "went to seed" the patch seemed sad, but proud. SignatureFrank ess [...]>> >> "Disemrooted". Actually, the cabbage stays alive till cooked --and >> in cole slaw, you're chewing the luckless creature alive. The [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a left-handful for munching along the trail, was impossible. When they > "went to seed" the patch seemed sad, but proud. The thing to do with disheartened cabbages is to neaten the stump with a horizontal cut, then make two crosswise shallow downward cuts. Four nice little regrowths appear in due course. SignatureMike. > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Have you no idea of the terror and degradation suffered by a head of > cabbage on its way to the table?...r I've heard the screams of the vegetables Watching their skins being peeled, Grated and steamed with no mercy. How do you think that feels? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC1dfIEIalA SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out |of such a trifling investment of kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |fact. (650)857-7572 | Mark Twain http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they > probably are, and probably rightly so.) Also, what do you mean by "bratwurst". I know two things sold under that name in the US: a white (veal?), precooked sort and a raw (pork?) sort. The maker of my favorite and longest-owned viola da gamba once treated me to a meal of Nürnberger bratwurst, in Nuremberg, by the way. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they >> probably are, and probably rightly so.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > name in the US: a white (veal?), precooked sort and a raw (pork?) > sort. I don't know what I mean by "bratwurst." There seems to be a variety: Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratwurst : "A bratwurst is a sausage usually composed of veal, pork or beef." Apparently, you pays your money and you takes your choice. > The maker of my favorite and longest-owned viola da gamba once treated > me > to a meal of Nürnberger bratwurst, in Nuremberg, by the way. Good stuff? My guss is yes. SignatureMaria Conlon >>> Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they >>> probably are, and probably rightly so.) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > Good stuff? My guss is yes. Oh, yes. Very tasty. You can hardly go wrong with German wurst of any sort -- and these were prepared and served in a cellar pub that had been offering them since the Holy Roman Empire was in short trousers. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >Oh, yes. Very tasty. You can hardly go wrong with German wurst of any >sort -- and these were prepared and served in a cellar pub that had been >offering them since the Holy Roman Empire was in short trousers. That gets my vote for "most disturbing mental image of the day"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> Oh, yes. Very tasty. You can hardly go wrong with German wurst of any >> sort -- and these were prepared and served in a cellar pub that had been >> offering them since the Holy Roman Empire was in short trousers. > > That gets my vote for "most disturbing mental image of the day"....r Everybody knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor trousered. SignatureJames > > Roland Hutchinson filted: > >> Oh, yes. Very tasty. You can hardly go wrong with German wurst of any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Everybody knows the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor > trousered. No, it's not holy, Roman, or an empire. Much of it was far too cold to run about bare-legged. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >>>> Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they >>>> probably are, and probably rightly so.) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >sort -- and these were prepared and served in a cellar pub that had been >offering them since the Holy Roman Empire was in short trousers. Yes, they are not the worst. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > > Q: Are "brats" (bratwurst) considered "sausage"? (I'm thinking they > > probably are, and probably rightly so.) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The maker of my favorite and longest-owned viola da gamba once treated me > to a meal of Nürnberger bratwurst, in Nuremberg, by the way. Now THAT would be worth eating. "Bratwurst" in Thüringen is, however, the top rung of the sausage ladder 8-) In Germany, of course, there are more kinds of sausage than most citizens of the US could begin to imagine. And even that pales in comparison with the number of kinds of real bread. 8-) In April I'm going back to sample some again after far too long. SignatureErilar, biblioholic medievalist http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo |
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