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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2010In order not to - how common?
Hi native speakers. I've been learning English for 30+ years and sometimes I have problems with even the simplest phrases and as it is not my mother tongue it is hard to decide... This time my question is how colloquial is the phrase "In order not to..." e.g. In order not to lose clients we had to reduce our prices. > Hi native speakers. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In order not to lose clients we had to reduce our prices. It seems a perfectly common phrase to me. I think I'd put a comma after 'clients', though.  SignatureCheryl In our last episode, <ecf389f2-2054-4177-8646-3fbaad564a8e@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented hhgygy@gmail.com broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Hi native speakers. > I've been learning English for 30+ years and sometimes I have problems > with even the simplest phrases and as it is not my mother tongue it is > hard to decide... > This time my question is how colloquial is the phrase > "In order not to..." > e.g. > In order not to lose clients we had to reduce our prices. In order not <infinitive> is common, although with some verbs it may be especially awkward. When it does not seem quite right, I suggest as a matter of style: In order to avoid <participle> For example: In order to avoid losing clients we had to reduce our prices. In some contexts "prevent" or something similar might be better than "avoid." "In order to" suggests purpose or resolve. Whether for style or psychology, it seems to me, purpose should be expressed in the affirmative. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 57 1381.6 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. >Hi native speakers. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >In order not to lose clients we had to reduce our prices. Perfectly ordinary. There are different ways to convey the same meaning, and some people may say that a different way is the better way. However, in answer to your question, the sentence is OK as written. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Thank you all. Long live web2 > Thank you all. Long live web2 What is "web2"? (I'm assuming it is the way you access AUE and other newsgroups.) But perhaps "web2" means, simply, Google Groups. Is that the case? SignatureMaria Conlon >> Thank you all. Long live web2 > > What is "web2"? (I'm assuming it is the way you access AUE and other > newsgroups.) > > But perhaps "web2" means, simply, Google Groups. Is that the case? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 Thank you, Skitt. I haven't read the item fully yet, but will. SignatureMaria Conlon, Whose reading comprehension isn't always what it used to be. >>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 The definition there doesn't seem to cover internet applications, e.g. newsgroups, that don't use the web. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The definition there doesn't seem to cover internet applications, e.g. >newsgroups, that don't use the web. I believe that is correct. Usenet newsgroups predate Web 2.0. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I believe that is correct. Usenet newsgroups predate Web 2.0. And Web 1.0, and Web with any Greek letters attached. There was a time when I ooked for an ISP that would provide a uucp feed. I gave up. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And Web 1.0, and Web with any Greek letters attached. I think someone left out a minus sign somewhere. Usenet is like Web -2.0, in round numbers (and I nominate Gopher for Web -1.0). Nominations remain open for both Web -0.0 and Web +0.0. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The definition there doesn't seem to cover internet applications, e.g. >newsgroups, that don't use the web. Well it wouldn't, would it? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> Thank you all. Long live web2 >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0 That enlarged my vocabulary. I'd never heard of mashups or folksonomies before. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > This time my question is how colloquial is the phrase > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In order not to lose clients we had to reduce our prices. 1. This is normal colloquial English. 2. Your hesitation can profitably be used, if you re-examine whether negative statements like this (which everybody makes) can be more effectively rephrased as positive statements, e.g. "We reduced our prices so as to keep our clients" or "We reduced our prices so as to attract more clients." In some circumstances, this habit of mind might be a valuable asset. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> e.g. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more clients." In some circumstances, this habit of > mind might be a valuable asset. Hi. Would it be correct or, at least acceptable, to use the following form without changing the original meaning? "We had to reduce our prices lest we lose clients." P.S.: I've always wondered about the usage of the conjunction 'lest', which I don't see/hear too often. Thank you. SignatureNey André de Mello Zunino >>> e.g. >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thank you. Yes, that would be correct. I think, in North America at least, 'lest' is almost never used, except for once a year on Remembrance Day when the slogan to remind you of the war dead is 'Lest We Forget'. I thought that phrase came from the war poem "In Flanders Fields", but Google reveals it was attributed to Kipling, and is sometimes used in Australia, Canada and New Zealand in association with the Ode of Remembrance, of which I have frequently heard (and responded to) the fourth verse, without ever knowing the name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_of_Remembrance Well, after that little diversion, I should perhaps summarize: 'lest we lose clients' is correct, but because 'lest' isn't used much in North America outside poetry and public remembrance ceremonies, it might be misunderstood. I don't know if 'lest' is still in common use in the UK. SignatureCheryl > >> <hhg...@gmail.com> wrote in message > >>news:ecf389f2-2054-4177-8646-3fbaad564a8e@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > is almost never used, except for once a year on Remembrance Day when the > slogan to remind you of the war dead is 'Lest We Forget'. I think that "lest we forget" is a fairly common fixed phrase in American, even outside of Veteran's Day (aka Remembrance Day) ceremonies--for instance, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/opinion/28krugman.html. The biblical "judge not lest ye be judged" is also sometimes heard, which contains the almost-completely-dead "ye" as well as the merely uncommon "lest". I think the sentence "We had to reduce our prices lest we lose clients" would be understood in the US--you do hear the word lest used in the US from time to time outside of historical fixed phrases: http://gizmodo.com/5416996/patch-your-blackberry-server-software-lest-a-pdf-take-over "Patch Your Blackberry Server Software, Lest a PDF Take Over" |
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