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Masa - 31 Jan 2010 14:12 GMT
the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues and
all kind of enjoyments;
(The Life and Adventures of Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe)

Question about "all kind of"

I simply thought that it should be "all kinds of virtues and all kinds
of enjoyments"
instead of "all kind of" for a proper usage.

But acutally I see many cases of "all kind" on the net.

Is it possible that  "all kind" as such is used in a way equivalent to
"each kind" or "every kind"?
CDB - 31 Jan 2010 15:15 GMT
> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Is it possible that  "all kind" as such is used in a way equivalent
> to "each kind" or "every kind"?

It's old-fashioned.  The modern equivalent would be "all kinds", at
least in North America.  On the other hand, you do still see the
old-fashioned "all manner of ..." sometimes, possibly because it
appears in a familiar passage in the King James Version of the Bible:
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and
shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.".
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=KJV

My biggest dictionary, the Shorter Oxford, says that "kind of", in its
meaning "class of", was originally in an attributive relationship with
the following noun, and that there is still a tendency to keep it
singular, as attributives usually are.  I didn't find the explanation
entirely clear, but there is a reference to the article under "kin" in
the "NED" which I can't follow up; maybe someone with OED access will
enlighten us.
Ekkehard Dengler - 31 Jan 2010 15:30 GMT
>> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
>> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> the "NED" which I can't follow up; maybe someone with OED access will
> enlighten us.

They probably mean usages like "these/those kind of issues", which are
extremely common, but frowned upon by many.

Regards,
Ekkehard
Masa - 31 Jan 2010 18:47 GMT
thanks, very interesting explanation in the below:
"ALL KIND OF" shows that "kind " was recognized as an abstract noun
those years, and it must have
changed into the present one as a commone one, attending the way of
people's feelling about the word having changed.

> > It's old-fashioned.  The modern equivalent would be "all kinds", at
> > least in North America.  On the other hand, you do still see the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> They probably mean usages like "these/those kind of issues", which are
> extremely common, but frowned upon by many.
Don Phillipson - 31 Jan 2010 22:59 GMT
> thanks, very interesting explanation in the below:
> "ALL KIND OF" shows that "kind " was recognized as an abstract noun
> those years, and it must have
> changed into the present one as a commone one, attending the way of
> people's feelling about the word having changed.

Think of "humankind," an abstraction like Christendom, Europe, and
other uncountable nouns.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Jeffrey Turner - 01 Feb 2010 06:10 GMT
> thanks, very interesting explanation in the below:
> "ALL KIND OF" shows that "kind " was recognized as an abstract noun
> those years, and it must have
> changed into the present one as a commone one, attending the way of
> people's feelling about the word having changed.

Yes.  Compare that to "all manner of," which outnumbers "all
manners of" by a much larger ratio than "kinds/kind" in my
favorite search engine, Altavista.

--Jeff

Signature

Is man one of God's blunders or
is God one of man's?
--Friedrich Nietzsche

CDB - 01 Feb 2010 14:01 GMT
>>> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
>>> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> They probably mean usages like "these/those kind of issues", which
> are extremely common, but frowned upon by many.

Yes, I think you're right.  John Holmes has posted the very
interesting OED article under "kin", which gives a lot of the history
of the word.  That constellation, including "kin", "kind" and "nature"
has fascinated me with a rare fascination for many years, since I read
the chapter on it in CS Lewis's _Studies in Words_.  If I may repeat
myself, fascinating!
John Holmes - 01 Feb 2010 11:55 GMT
>> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
>> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> the "NED" which I can't follow up; maybe someone with OED access will
> enlighten us.

It appears to be a descendant an old genitive phrase of /kin/. The
online OED entry for /kind/ is very long and confusing, but the relevant
section, says:

[quote]
14. a. Kind of. Later usage transposes the syntactical relation in such
constructions as all kinds of trees = 'trees of all kinds', this kind of
thing = 'a thing of this kind'. For the history of this, see KIN1 6b.
 As the original genitive phrase was in attrib. relation to the
following n., the natural tendency is still to treat all kind of, no
kind of, what kind of, etc. (like ME. alkin, nakin, whatkin), and, hence
also, the simple kind of (colloq. kind o', kind a, kinder), as an
attrib. or adj. phrase qualifying the n.
[end quote]

At KIN1 6b, it says:

[quote]
  {dag}b. In this sense, chiefly in a genitive phrase, dependent upon
following n. Cf. KIND n. 14.
 In OE. the genitive might be either sing. or pl., according to sense;
e.g. ælces or {asg}ehwylces cynnes déor, animals of each or every kind,
moni{asg}ra cynna scipu, ships of many kinds, {th}reora cynna treowu,
trees of three kinds. In ME., cynnes became kunnes, kynnes, kyns, kins;
cynna became kunne, kynne, kyn, kin. For the latter the genitive sing.
was often substituted; and conversely, kynne, kin, appeared in the
sing., esp. in the north, where it was prob. viewed as an uninflected
genitive, as in man son, fader broder, etc. The preceding adjectival
word agreeing with kynnes, kins, dropped its gentival s somewhat early;
sometimes it was transferred to kinnes, thus alle skynnes (= alles
kynnes, alle kynnes), no skynnes, etc. Usually however the two words
were at length combined, as in the later forms alkin(s, anykin(s,
fele-kin(s, manykin(s, nokin(s or nakin(s, otherkin(s, sere-kin(s,
swilkin(s, same-kin(s, thiskin(s, whilk-kin (hwil-kyn), whatkin(s. Few
of these came down to 1500, though in the north whatkin is found in the
16th c., and survives in Sc. and north Eng. as what'n, beside siccan
from swilk kin.
 The reduction of kin to its simple uninflected form may have been
assisted by the equivalent use of manere (MANNER) from OFr., which is
thus found, as threo maner men = men of three kinds or sorts. In this,
at an early period, we find of inserted: an manere of fisce, al maner o
suet spices, the syntactical relation between the words being thus
reversed, and although this appears to have rarely extended to kin
itself, it affected its later representative kind, also sort, species,
etc., so that we now say 'all kinds of things' = things of all kinds.
This may have been facilitated by the fact that in the order of the
words (as distinct from their syntactical relation) 'al kins thinges' is
more closely represented by 'all kinds of things' than by 'things of all
kind'. See KIND, MANNER, SORT, etc., and, for the special combinations
of kin with preceding adj., ALKIN, ANY-KYN, etc.
[end quote]

Whew!

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

CDB - 01 Feb 2010 14:01 GMT
>>> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
>>> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> etc. [end quote]
> Whew!

Whew indeed.  Thank you very much for the effort, which has cleared up
several kind (of) questions for me.  My difficulty was in
understanding where the "of" had come from, and the article answered
that.  As a bonus, it gives the etymology of "siccan", which I had
thoughtlessly parsed as a form of "such one" (such a), when I
occasionally read it.
James Hogg - 01 Feb 2010 14:32 GMT
>>>> the middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues
>>>> and all kind of enjoyments;
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> thoughtlessly parsed as a form of "such one" (such a), when I
> occasionally read it.

The Scandinavian languages preserve a cognate of that early English
"alles kynnes": Danish "alskens" and Swedish "allsköns". I think they're
less common nowadays than constructions with "sort" and "slag" (which,
like German "Schlach" ("stock, breed") is related to words denoting
KINship).

In all these cases the word meaning "kind" has a genitive form:
Danish "alskens musik, alslags musik" etc.
Swedish "allsköns musik, alla sorters musik, vilken sorts musik? vilket
slags musik?" etc.

The root noun, Danish "køn", Swedish "kön", now means "sex, gender, sex
organs".

Signature

James

Ekkehard Dengler - 01 Feb 2010 15:42 GMT
> The Scandinavian languages preserve a cognate of that early English
> "alles kynnes": Danish "alskens" and Swedish "allsköns". I think
> they're less common nowadays than constructions with "sort" and
> "slag" (which, like German "Schlach" ("stock, breed") is related to
> words denoting KINship).

That's interesting, but the German word is normally spelled "Schlag", even
though it's often pronounced with [x]. Germ. "Kind" ("child") is cognate
with Engl. "kin" as well.

Regards,
Ekkehard
James Hogg - 01 Feb 2010 15:56 GMT
>> The Scandinavian languages preserve a cognate of that early English
>>  "alles kynnes": Danish "alskens" and Swedish "allsköns". I think
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> even though it's often pronounced with [x]. Germ. "Kind" ("child") is
> cognate with Engl. "kin" as well.

My mistake, of course it's "Schlag".

As for the etymology of "Kind", I see this curiosity in the OED under
"child":

"Prof. Sievers suggests the possibility that kind is a perversion of
/cild, kilþ-/, by assimilation to the derivatives of root /ken-/, which
may have spread from OHG. to OS. and Fris."

I don't think many have accepted Sievers' suggestion.

Signature

James

Eric Walker - 31 Jan 2010 23:13 GMT
[...]

> Question about "all kind of" . . . .

 The middle station of life was calculated for all kind of virtues and
 all kind of enjoyments . . . .

The most extensive discussion I could find is in Bernstein's book _The
Careful Writer_.  I will try to summarize what he sets out as the chief
traps in usage (this goes beyond the original question):

 1. "kind of an apple": no "a/an"

 2. "those kind of apple": unsound idiomatically and grammatically

 3. "those kind of apples": grammatically unsound but not uncommon

 4. "those kinds of apples": no--needs to be "of apple"

 5. "that kind of apples": acceptable

As you can see, it is not a simple matter.  His summation:

 "If . . . the noun is an abstraction, it is singular.  For other words,
 either a singular or a plural may be used, depending on whether it is
 thought of as a category name or as members of the category.  For
 instance: 'It takes all kinds of people [category] to make up a world.'
 but 'All kinds of persons [members of category] were in the audience';
 'Various kinds of argument [category] were taken up in the course in
 logic,' but 'Various kinds of arguments [members of category] broke out
 between the strikers and the police.'"

The original example would seem to be case #3, which is technically
unsound, but is even today to be found in at least the speech--if not
usually the writing--of competent speakers.
   

Signature

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

 
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