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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010HMS Duke of Wellington a she?
The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. Is a ship always a she, or may she become a he, when given an obviously male name? Jan > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. > > Is a ship always a she, > or may she become a he, > when given an obviously male name? Ships are "she" or "it", but not "he", no matter what her/its name.  SignatureDavid > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. > Is a ship always a she, Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is that the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel where the observed actions of the enemy are identical with the observed actions of the enemy's ship, 'he' may seem to refer to the ship, but really means 'the enemy.' However, the trend is to 'it.' > or may she become a he, > when given an obviously male name? SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 67 1617.5 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. >> The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as >> he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >enemy's ship, 'he' may seem to refer to the ship, but really means 'the >enemy.' Yes, I've seen that usage. Perhaps the "he" referred to the commander on board. >However, the trend is to 'it.' > >> or may she become a he, >> when given an obviously male name? Even when a ship, such as the USS Carl Vinson, has an obviously male name, she is usually either a she or an it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is that >the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel where the >observed actions of the enemy are identical with the observed actions of the >enemy's ship, 'he' may seem to refer to the ship, but really means 'the >enemy.' I am told that the Soviets used "he" for their own ships (and I expect that, if this is true, the Russians still do). Can anyone provide evidence? SignatureRoger BW - BrE > >Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is that > >the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel where the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that, if this is true, the Russians still do). Can anyone provide > evidence? New DIL[1], a recent immigrant to the US from Russia, reports that in Russian the pronouns follow the grammatical gender of the nouns. Boats and surface ships are "he," but submarines are "she." I haven't looked this up, but she's a native speaker and seems quite sure. [1] Yes, my one and only son, until recently the oldest adolescent in the universe, tied the know aa few months back. She's too good for him, of course. SignatureBob Lieblich Who can pronounce almost the entire Cyrillic alphabet > New DIL[1], a recent immigrant to the US from Russia, reports that in > Russian the pronouns follow the grammatical gender of the nouns. > Boats and surface ships are "he," but submarines are "she." I haven't > looked this up, but she's a native speaker and seems quite sure. Merging threads, someone recently took offence at something someone else had written that referred to "native speakers". Presumably they were going from "natives" in some way. Has anyone else ever come across any objection to what I've always taken to be a completely neutral descriptive term (as a native speaker of English myself). SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> New DIL[1], a recent immigrant to the US from Russia, reports that in >> Russian the pronouns follow the grammatical gender of the nouns. >> Boats and surface ships are "he," but submarines are "she." I haven't >> looked this up, but she's a native speaker and seems quite sure. > > Merging threads, someone recently took offence in AUE? I didn't see it, and would be surprised if any regular would be offended by this. If it was in AUE (or AEU) can you tell me the subject line of the thread? It's almost impossible to talk meaningfully about languages (and especially comparisons between languages) without referring to the concept of a native speaker. People offended by this expression can find plenty of occasions to be offended if they follow AUE. > at something someone else > had written that referred to "native speakers". Presumably they were > going from "natives" in some way. Has anyone else ever come across any > objection to what I've always taken to be a completely neutral > descriptive term (as a native speaker of English myself). No. However, it doesn't surprise me too much as it seems similar to the objection to "niggardly" made by ignorant people. Signatureathel >>> New DIL[1], a recent immigrant to the US from Russia, reports that in >>> Russian the pronouns follow the grammatical gender of the nouns. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > in AUE? No, in real life. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >>Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is >>that the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that, if this is true, the Russians still do). Can anyone provide > evidence? Depends. Корабль, used mostly for bigger vessels, is masculine; судно, used for any type of vessel, including not self-propelled, is neuter. Different types of ships fall in different genders: schooner, yacht, barge are feminine; frigate, cruiser, cutter, sloop are masculine; boat, including submarine boat, is feminine; and so on. SignatureAlec Kojaev St.Petersburg, Russia [30E18 59N56] >Different types of ships fall in different genders: schooner, yacht, >barge are feminine; frigate, cruiser, cutter, sloop are masculine; >boat, including submarine boat, is feminine; and so on. What fun! Thank you. SignatureRoger BW - BrE >>>Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is >>>that the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >barge are feminine; frigate, cruiser, cutter, sloop are masculine; >boat, including submarine boat, is feminine; and so on. Very interesting. Would it be correct to say that all of the major Russian Navy ship classes are masculine, except for the submarines? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >>Between 'he' and 'she,' it is 'she.' The only possible confusion is > >>that the enemy is often called 'he,' so in an account of a naval duel [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > barge are feminine; frigate, cruiser, cutter, sloop are masculine; > boat, including submarine boat, is feminine; and so on. I wondered for a moment if the Russian genders might have been derived from the (no longer used) Dutch genders of the corresponding ship types. The answer is no, Jan > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jan Always a 'she' as far as I know. SignatureCheryl Sun, 7 Feb 2010 11:29:16 +0100 from J. J. Lodder <nospam@de- ster.demon.nl>: > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. > > Is a ship always a she, > or may she become a he, > when given an obviously male name? I think a vessel is always "she". Maybe they could refer to her as the Duchess? :-) SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... >Sun, 7 Feb 2010 11:29:16 +0100 from J. J. Lodder <nospam@de- >ster.demon.nl>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I think a vessel is always "she". I can't drink to that. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>Sun, 7 Feb 2010 11:29:16 +0100 from J. J. Lodder <nospam@de- >>ster.demon.nl>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>I think a vessel is always "she". [I'm piggybacking on Riggs' post] It always seemed an oddity that the Queen Elizabeth Hotel in Montreal was referred to as "le Reine Elizabeth". The masculine was there for the non-spoken "Hotel". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * <snip> >[I'm piggybacking on Riggs' post] Since the possessive of a name is always formed the same way, I believe, no matter how it is spelled, that should be "Riggs's". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > It always seemed an oddity that the Queen Elizabeth Hotel in > Montreal was referred to as "le Reine Elizabeth". The masculine > was there for the non-spoken "Hotel". The university in Santa Marta (Colombia) is called la Universidad del Magdalena, a name that puzzled me when I first heard it, as Magdalena is obviously feminine. However, the university is not named after Mary Magdalene, but after the river that is named after Mary Magdalene, which is masculine. Signatureathel > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. > > Is a ship always a she, yes (at least in naval circles -- otherwise 'it" is becoming more and more common) > or may she become a he, > when given an obviously male name? no, never Signatureathel > > The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington as > > he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > no, never Thanks, and also to all others who responded. I've fed your conclusion back to the newsgroup where the question originated, Jan >> The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington >> as he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > no, never What, never? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>> The BBC will have a documentary on the refound HMS Duke of Wellington >>> as he/she lies on the Thames riverbed. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What, never? Well, hardly ever. Signatureathel |
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