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How many Eskimo words for "snowmobile"?

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Berkeley Brett - 07 Feb 2010 11:42 GMT
One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
for "snow."

The Wikipedia article on this subject proclaims this an "urban
legend":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow

Perhaps they do have 23 different words for "snowmobile" though....

By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?

Best wishes to all....

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.100bestwebsites.org/
"The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites
Cheryl - 07 Feb 2010 11:58 GMT
> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> "The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!"
> Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites

I guess that urban legends are always told by people who live in towns
or cities - most of them are about various urban terrors, like the
carjacker who hides in the back seat of the car. Maybe rural legends are
more likely to be about giant black ghost dogs roaming the fields or the
Good Folk lurking in the back woods to steal your baby.

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Cheryl

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Feb 2010 13:26 GMT
>By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
>things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?

There is an article on the phrases "urban myth", "urban legend", etc.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/urban-myth.html

The writer says, in part:

   Note: This is a language site and so we are primarily concerned here
   with the meaning and origin of the term 'urban myth' rather than
   with the myths themselves,...

   This topic is such a cans of worms that I hardly know where to
   begin. The words used in the little term 'urban myth' are
   contentious in themselves, so let's start there. Why 'urban'? The
   setting of these stories isn't limited to cities. For example, the
   Vanishing Hitch-hiker tale is usually set on some deserted back
   road. The stories that fall in the 'urban myth' category aren't
   limited to city life - they are those that are set in contemporary
   industrialized societies, as distinct from traditional folklore
   tales.
   
   Then there's 'myth'. Many students of this field prefer the terms
   'urban legend' or 'urban folklore'. 'Myth' implies that the stories
   are all false and, whilst most of them clearly are, some may contain
   elements of truth. In fact, one of the essential factors in a
   plausible retelling is the introduction of real events; ...

   Perhaps a name that is nearer to being definitive of this form of
   story would be 'contemporary legend'.

OED:

   urban legend n. orig. U.S. a sensational but apocryphal story which
   through repetition in varying versions has acquired the status of
   folklore, esp. one lent plausibility by its contemporary setting, or
   by the purported involvement of someone known to the teller.
   1968...
   
   urban myth n. orig. U.S. = urban legend n.
   1982...

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(in alt.usage.english)

Steve Hayes - 07 Feb 2010 15:17 GMT
>>By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
>>things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>    elements of truth. In fact, one of the essential factors in a
>    plausible retelling is the introduction of real events; ...

I prefer the term "urban legend" to "urban myth", but for an entirely
different reason. As I understand it, a legend is simply a tale or story,
which might have a moral (eg don't trust strangers) but does not try to
communicate some profound truth about life, the universe and everything, which
myth usually does,

>    Perhaps a name that is nearer to being definitive of this form of
>    story would be 'contemporary legend'.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>    urban myth n. orig. U.S. = urban legend n.
>    1982...

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Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Don Phillipson - 07 Feb 2010 14:07 GMT
> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?

Late Victorian scholarship exposed as fallacies many ancient
traditional beliefs, e.g. that King Arthur burned some woman's cakes,
e.g. that yellow plants cured yellow diseases like jaundice.  The
general idea emerged that only backward country folk maintained
such fallacious legends:  modern townsmen were too sophisticated
to take such legends seriously.  But in the 20th century too many
cases emerged confirming that modern townsmen were just as
gullible and gormless as the rural people they despised . . .

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 14:32 GMT
>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
>
> Late Victorian scholarship exposed as fallacies many ancient
> traditional beliefs, e.g. that King Arthur burned some woman's cakes,

Really?  I never heard that one.

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David

Nick Spalding - 07 Feb 2010 15:04 GMT
the Omrud wrote, in <W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:

> >> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
> >> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Really?  I never heard that one.

Arthur, Alfred – what's the difference?
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Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 15:07 GMT
> the Omrud wrote, in<W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
>   on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Arthur, Alfred – what's the difference?

Actual historical existence?

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David

Mike Page - 07 Feb 2010 19:13 GMT
>> the Omrud wrote, in<W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
>>   on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Actual historical existence?

And Alfred, used 'less', when pedants demand 'fewer', according to OED.

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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Feb 2010 06:15 GMT
>> the Omrud wrote, in<W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
>>   on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Actual historical existence?

Picky, picky, picky!

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
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Steve Hayes - 07 Feb 2010 15:39 GMT
>the Omrud wrote, in <W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
> on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Arthur, Alfred – what's the difference?

Arthur was a myth.

The story that Alfred burnt the cakes was a legend.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Pat Durkin - 07 Feb 2010 16:42 GMT
>>the Omrud wrote, in <W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
>> on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> The story that Alfred burnt the cakes was a legend.

Right. He didn't burn them.  He was supposed to watch them, and he
wasn't up to the job.  I suppose he thought it would be an easy job,
since the watched pot doesn't boil. Ergo: why would the cakes burn?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Feb 2010 16:48 GMT
>>the Omrud wrote, in <W9Abn.37211$Ym4.190@text.news.virginmedia.com>
>> on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:32:22 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Arthur was a myth.

But:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7017980.ece

   King Arthur to the rescue of Ardmore [film studios in Ireland]

>The story that Alfred burnt the cakes was a legend.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Cheryl - 07 Feb 2010 17:25 GMT
>>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"?  Are there such
>>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Really?  I never heard that one.

Oh, yes, I did, and believed every word! King Alfred was wandering
around the countryside feeling very downcast and sorry for himself. A
poor woman offered him some cakes she was baking by the fire, and left
the stranger to watch them. Absorbed in his troubles, he let them burn,
but her scolding inspired him to rally again and become a great hero.

Or something like that.

Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't inspired
to great achievements by the spider he observed while lurking in a cave
alone (except for the spider) and depressed.

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Cheryl

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 18:24 GMT
>>>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"? Are there such
>>>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the stranger to watch them. Absorbed in his troubles, he let them burn,
> but her scolding inspired him to rally again and become a great hero.

That doesn't really help with the story about King Arthur.

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David

Nick - 07 Feb 2010 19:54 GMT
>>>>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"? Are there such
>>>>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> That doesn't really help with the story about King Arthur.

"Alfred ought never to be confused with King Arthur, equally memorable
but probably non-existent and therefore perhaps less important
historically (unless he did exist)".

Do I really need to give the source?
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Feb 2010 20:00 GMT
>>>>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"? Are there such
>>>>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>That doesn't really help with the story about King Arthur.

King Arthur did not make cake mixture let along bake it.  He had a
wizard to do things like that for him. Merlin's cakes were *magic*.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Cheryl - 07 Feb 2010 21:59 GMT
>>>>> By the way, what's "urban" about "urban legends"? Are there such
>>>>> things as "rural legends" or "suburban legends"?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> That doesn't really help with the story about King Arthur.

I was so familiar with the King Alfred story that I read what I thought
should be there, not what actually was.

It isn't the first time I've done that, unfortunately.

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Cheryl

Peter Moylan - 08 Feb 2010 11:40 GMT
> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't inspired
> to great achievements by the spider he observed while lurking in a cave
> alone (except for the spider) and depressed.

Wasn't R the B also inspired by seeing two raindrops racing each other
down a window pane, and observing that one beat the other? (Or,
possibly, vice versa?)

On second thoughts, perhaps that was Christopher Robin.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

the Omrud - 08 Feb 2010 11:51 GMT
>> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't inspired
>> to great achievements by the spider he observed while lurking in a cave
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> On second thoughts, perhaps that was Christopher Robin.

Just before he unified Scotland?

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David

Peter Moylan - 08 Feb 2010 12:12 GMT
>>> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't inspired
>>> to great achievements by the spider he observed while lurking in a cave
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Just before he unified Scotland?

My geography is a little shaky. Is Scotland part of the Hundred Aker Wood?

Hold on, though, I've just remembered. Scotland wasn't unified by King
Arthur. It was some fellow called Scotland the Brave.

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

the Omrud - 08 Feb 2010 12:15 GMT
>>>> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't inspired
>>>> to great achievements by the spider he observed while lurking in a cave
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Hold on, though, I've just remembered. Scotland wasn't unified by King
> Arthur. It was some fellow called Scotland the Brave.

I thought it was an angry Australian named Max.

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David

musika - 08 Feb 2010 17:27 GMT
>>>>> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't
>>>>> inspired to great achievements by the spider he observed while
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> I thought it was an angry Australian named Max.

Was he the one who burnt the bannocks?

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Ray
UK

Mike Lyle - 08 Feb 2010 22:55 GMT
>>>>>> Next, someone's going to tell me that Robert the Bruce wasn't
>>>>>> inspired to great achievements by the spider he observed while
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Was he the one who burnt the bannocks?

That story's a load of bannocks.

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Mike.

John Holmes - 22 Feb 2010 09:36 GMT
> I thought it was an angry Australian named Max.

They are about to make yet another sequel. This time I guess they'll
have to call it Grumpy Old Max.

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for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Stan Brown - 07 Feb 2010 15:18 GMT
Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson <e925
@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
> Late Victorian scholarship exposed as fallacies many ancient
> traditional beliefs, e.g. that King Arthur burned some woman's cakes,

Well, of course: Arthur was a myth.

Everyone knows it was King Alfred. :-)

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Shikata ga nai...

the Omrud - 07 Feb 2010 15:20 GMT
> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Everyone knows it was King Alfred. :-)

Q: Is it a myth that King Arthur burned the cakes?
A: No, this is not a myth.

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David

John O'Flaherty - 07 Feb 2010 20:35 GMT
>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Q: Is it a myth that King Arthur burned the cakes?
>A: No, this is not a myth.

There, there... nothing ith a myth.
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John

James Silverton - 07 Feb 2010 20:44 GMT
John  wrote  on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:35:19 -0600:

>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
>>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> Q: Is it a myth that King Arthur burned the cakes?
>> A: No, this is not a myth.

> There, there... nothing ith a myth.

Even so, a myth is not necessarily untrue. The OED has:

1. a. A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or
forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or
justification for something such as the early history of a society, a
religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon.
 Myth is strictly distinguished from allegory and legend by some
scholars, but in general use it is often used interchangeably with these
terms

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Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Don Phillipson - 07 Feb 2010 22:36 GMT
> Even so, a myth is not necessarily untrue. The OED has:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> scholars, but in general use it is often used interchangeably with these
> terms

Canadians see things differently, e.g. Donald Harmon Akenson:
"I use the term 'myth' not to mean an untrue set of views about
historical events, but views of the past that take on extraempirical
meaning, by virtue of being closely related to the society's views
of its collective identity and its special, virtually divine, origin" in
God's Peoples: Covenant and Land in South Africa, Israel, and Ulster
(McGill-Queens Univ. Press, 1991) p. 138

This originates with Northrop Frye (Toronto literary scholar):
"Ideology is always a secondary and derivative thing, and... the
primary thing is a mythology.... People don't think up a set of
assumptions or beliefs;  they think up a set of stories, and
derive the assumptions and beliefs from the stories" in
Criticism in Society, ed. Imre Salusinzsky (London:  Methuen, 1987) p. 31.

-- and elsewhere, "Man invents the wheel and in no time he's
talking nonsense about a wheel of fate or a wheel of fortune or
a wheel as a cosmological force which is alienating him from
himself.  He invents the book, and he starts talking about the book
of life, in which all your sins are recorded.  He invents the computer,
and God knows what he's projecting out of that.  But it's all superstition"
in David Cayley's Northrop Frye in Conversation (Anansi, 1992) p. 161

Short form: a myth is a story (narrative) that resists verification, i.e.
is believed or provides the basis for action regardless of who proves
or disproves it, under whatever circumstances.

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Myth is "an interconnected body of significant stories that a
society needs to know."

R H Draney - 08 Feb 2010 03:02 GMT
Don Phillipson filted:

>-- and elsewhere, "Man invents the wheel and in no time he's
>talking nonsense about a wheel of fate or a wheel of fortune or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>and God knows what he's projecting out of that.  But it's all superstition"
>in David Cayley's Northrop Frye in Conversation (Anansi, 1992) p. 161

I think it was Carl Sagan who suggested that civilizations who have just
discovered the wireless tend to think that Messages From Beyond must naturally
be sent by radio, just as those who have just invented the wheel think that such
Messages will be found encoded in the decimal expansion of pi....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Cheryl - 08 Feb 2010 10:23 GMT
>> Even so, a myth is not necessarily untrue. The OED has:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> is believed or provides the basis for action regardless of who proves
> or disproves it, under whatever circumstances.

I've read that a myth is more true than a factual account (I think I
have that correct). I still haven't quite figured out what that means; I
think (because the author, Tom Harpur, was writing about religion) it
meant that myth can allude to greater truths than can be expressed in
ordinary language.

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Cheryl

Richard Bollard - 09 Feb 2010 04:55 GMT
> John  wrote  on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:35:19 -0600:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Even so, a myth is not necessarily untrue.

...

And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way they
are propagated, not their origin.
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Richard Bollard
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To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Cheryl - 09 Feb 2010 11:41 GMT
>> John  wrote  on Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:35:19 -0600:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way they
> are propagated, not their origin.

I thought urban myths were untrue. They aren't based on a real incident;
they arise quite independently, in theory as a result of people's
anxieties over what might happen, and desire to warn others away from
dangerous actions. So although, tragically, children sometimes are
abducted, the classic UL version set in a theme park or mall, often with
the addition of hair-dying in the bathroom, didn't happen and wasn't
based on any specific incident. And, of course, the most common real
scenario - parental abduction over custody disputes - isn't included in
the myth.

Years ago, that story hit the media here - local child abducted while in
Disney World! It was a classic example of the myth - and so many people
believed it that the local media investigated and were unable to find
any parents who had lost a child anywhere, and no reports to the police
in either Florida or here.

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Cheryl

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 09 Feb 2010 15:56 GMT
> > And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way they
> > are propagated, not their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> anxieties over what might happen, and desire to warn others away from
> dangerous actions.

FWIW (which may be very little if you belief that urban legends and
urban myths are different and this is a distinguishing point), the
alt.folklore.urban FAQ says that urban legends can be true and often
have a basis in fact:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/folklore-faq/part1/

An urban legend:
   * appears mysteriously and spreads spontaneously in varying
     forms,
   * contains elements of humor or horror (the horror often
     "punishes" someone who flouts society's conventions).
   * makes good storytelling.
   * does NOT have to be false, although most are.  ULs often
     have a basis in fact, but it's their life after-the-fact
     (particularly in reference to the second and third points)
    that gives them particular interest.
...
As noted elsewhere in this list and by astute individuals on the net,
an
UL does not have to be false.  If we take the example of "The
Unsolvable
Math Problem" (see below), we find that mathematician George Dantzig
is
the probable individual involved.  So is this story no longer an UL?
Jan Harold Brunvand addresses this issue thusly:

    "Despite finding its [The Unsolvable Math Problem] apparent
     origin, I continue to accept anonymous versions as legendary.
     Here's why."

    "An oral story is a story, whatever its origin.  As long as a
     story continues to circulate in different variations, partly
     by word of mouth, we may regard it as folklore.  But probably
     'The Unsolvable Math Problem' legend should no longer be
     discussed as strictly 'apocryphal,' since we now seem to have
     found its source, and the deviations from the original incident
     are easily recognized and are not excessive."

                        - JHB, _Curses!  Broiled Again!_, p. 282

Veracity is interesting but far from the only thing when it comes to
the study of urban legends.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Feb 2010 16:17 GMT
>> And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way
>> they are propagated, not their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> most common real scenario - parental abduction over custody disputes -
> isn't included in the myth.

The myth as told will be untrue, but not infrequently it may be a
serial elaboration of something that is true.

I once witnessed how the process can start.  I had seen a piece on the
news (complete with footage, so I was sure it was true).  I talked
about it at lunch the next day and added what you might call an
"ironic coda" as a joke at the end, being confident that everybody at
my table understood that the bit at the end was something I made up.
Later that afternoon, I heard somebody who had been at the *next*
table repeat the story--including my coda--with no indication that the
last element wasn't actually part of the story.  He obviously hadn't
realized that I had been joking, and it *did* make it a better story.

I've also heard people who obviously misheard news reports make up
(upon being challenged) ways in which what they thought they heard
could be plausible and, again, people who hear it not be able to
distinguish between what was reported and what was made up.

And, of course, I've heard people relate things the saw in fiction and
have others repeat it as if it had been reported as happening in fact.

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Chuck Riggs - 10 Feb 2010 14:54 GMT
>>> And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way
>>> they are propagated, not their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>The myth as told will be untrue, but not infrequently it may be a
>serial elaboration of something that is true.

You disagree with what <sjdevnull@yahoo.com> had to say on the
subject, today?
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 Feb 2010 16:07 GMT
>>>> And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way
>>>> they are propagated, not their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> You disagree with what <sjdevnull@yahoo.com> had to say on the
> subject, today?

What in particular?  I've heard some that were defintely based on true
stories (i.e., the math student who came to class late, copied down
the unsolved problems on the board thinking they were homework and
solved them, which really happened to George Dantzig), but I don't
think I've heard anything I'd consider an urban legend/myth that
didn't, once the source was discovered, turn out to have had extra
elements added that made them more interesting and/or worth retelling.

For instance, in the Dantzig story, the story is typically told with
the student solving them in class (often "just as time ran out") or
turning them in the next day.  (Dantzig's version has him turning them
in a few days later, asking if the prof would still accept them.)  And
it nearly always includes the element of the student having been able
to solve all but one of the three (or ten) problems.  (Dantzig says
that there were two and he solved both.)  Somehow that "all but one"
makes it both more interesting and more believable.

And, interestingly, the stories leave out the (asserted true) element
of the professor, having come across the papers on his desk weeks
later and not realizing they were done as homework, assumes that they
were papers to be submitted to a journal and calls up the (very
confused) student saying that he had written an introduction to one of
them.

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Stan Brown - 11 Feb 2010 14:06 GMT
Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:07:21 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
<kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
> What in particular?  I've heard some that were defintely based on true
> stories (i.e., the math student who came to class late, copied down
> the unsolved problems on the board thinking they were homework and
> solved them, which really happened to George Dantzig),

"i.e."?  Surely not -- unless 'some" and "were" are wrong.

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Shikata ga nai...

Evan Kirshenbaum - 11 Feb 2010 14:39 GMT
> Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:07:21 -0800 from Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "i.e."?  Surely not -- unless 'some" and "were" are wrong.

Surely not.  I can't remember if that was an incomplete edit or if I
just changed the way I was going to say it while I was typing it.  Or
just screwed up.

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Chuck Riggs - 11 Feb 2010 16:45 GMT
>>>>> And urban myths may also be true. What makes them myth is the way
>>>>> they are propagated, not their origin.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>What in particular?

Quoting him:

"An urban legend:
   * appears mysteriously and spreads spontaneously in varying
     forms,
   * contains elements of humor or horror (the horror often
     "punishes" someone who flouts society's conventions).
   * makes good storytelling.
   * does NOT have to be false, although most are.  ULs often
     have a basis in fact, but it's their life after-the-fact
     (particularly in reference to the second and third points)
    that gives them particular interest. I've heard some that were
definitely based on true [sic]"

In other words, even though they are not necessarily true, they often
add humour to a true story.
Humor, that is, Evan, as in funny.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

Evan Kirshenbaum - 11 Feb 2010 17:25 GMT
>>>>The myth as told will be untrue, but not infrequently it may be a
>>>>serial elaboration of something that is true.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>     * appears mysteriously and spreads spontaneously in varying
>       forms,

I don't disagree, at least if "appears" means "when you first
encounter it".  It probably wouldn't be all that mysterious if you
could follow the entire evolution, but typically it evolves elsewhere
and arrives in your sight fully formed.

>     * contains elements of humor or horror (the horror often
>       "punishes" someone who flouts society's conventions).

I agree with that, although it's probably incomplete.  The humor is
often one of irony and either deals with someone "getting away with
something" or "getting what they deserved".

>     * makes good storytelling.

Definitely.

>     * does NOT have to be false, although most are.  ULs often
>       have a basis in fact, but it's their life after-the-fact
>       (particularly in reference to the second and third points)
>      that gives them particular interest. I've heard some that were
> definitely based on true [sic]"

I agree with that.  They may have a *basis in* fact, but elements are
typically added to make better storytelling or punch up the moral.
That's what I meant by a "serial elaboration": one person adds
something that makes it a better story, then another takes that part
at face value, but adds something else, and so on.

> In other words, even though they are not necessarily true, they
> often add humour to a true story.  Humor, that is, Evan, as in
> funny.

I'm not sure what you saw in my message (which included the anecdote
of my taking a true story and adding a joke and having that be picked
up as part of the story, made more interesting because of the joke)
that would lead you to believe that I disagreed with that.  Or that I
didn't know what "humor" was.

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Richard Bollard - 12 Feb 2010 04:50 GMT
...

>>     * does NOT have to be false, although most are.  ULs often
>>       have a basis in fact, but it's their life after-the-fact
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>something that makes it a better story, then another takes that part
>at face value, but adds something else, and so on.

Quite often the elaboration is just proximity to the teller. The story
may be perfectly true and accurate but the added, false detail is
usually that it happened to a friend of a friend. It never happened to
the teller, for example.

Many of these stories seem to have two degrees of separation. Any more
and it loses something. So if I hear one and decide to pass it on. I
would claim that it happened to a friend of someone I know even though
I heard of it happening to a friend of a friend of the person who told
it to me.

...
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Chuck Riggs - 12 Feb 2010 12:10 GMT
<snip>

>>Humor, that is, Evan, as in
>> funny.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>that would lead you to believe that I disagreed with that.  Or that I
>didn't know what "humor" was.

I wish I had the time and patience to unravel the entire meaning of
that, Evan, really I do, but your last suspicion is correct.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

sjdevnull@yahoo.com - 12 Feb 2010 06:55 GMT
> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:07:21 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Quoting him:

Just to clarify, the following were my quotes of the
alt.folklore.urban FAQ.  I think that I believe that urban legends are
not necessarily false, but I haven't strongly considered all of the
quoted points.
Richard Bollard - 09 Feb 2010 04:53 GMT
>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
>>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>There, there... nothing ith a myth.

A myth is a female moth. I thought everybody knew that.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

tony cooper - 09 Feb 2010 06:09 GMT
>>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
>>>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>A myth is a female moth. I thought everybody knew that.

Who else is thinking of Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau?

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

R H Draney - 09 Feb 2010 08:38 GMT
tony cooper filted:

>>>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 09:07:56 -0500 from Don Phillipson<e925
>>>>> @SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca>:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Who else is thinking of Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau?

I wasn't until just now...I was thinking of a series of comic fantasy books by
Robert Lynn Asprin....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Fred - 07 Feb 2010 14:43 GMT
> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Best wishes to all....

Are we allowed to use the term Eskimos? Apparantely a recent visitor to our
shores thought not.
.http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2348856/Eskimos-to-stay-maker-says
Fred - 07 Feb 2010 14:48 GMT
>> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
>> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> our shores thought not.
> .http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2348856/Eskimos-to-stay-maker-says
I'll try a lnk that works!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2349017/Eskimo-lollies-rile-Inuit
James Hogg - 07 Feb 2010 15:01 GMT
>>> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
>>> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I'll try a lnk that works!
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2349017/Eskimo-lollies-rile-Inuit 

Cross-thread alert!
Here's a link that works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokladboll

Signature

James

Steve Hayes - 07 Feb 2010 15:50 GMT
>>> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
>>> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I'll try a lnk that works!
>http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2349017/Eskimo-lollies-rile-Inuit

In South Africa in my youth we had Eskimo Pies, which were vanilla ice cream
coated with chocolate. They were a trade name but though the manucacturer has
gone out of business, the name persists for lollies by other manufacturers
which consist of ice cream covered with chocolate. There is one called
"Magnum", which I believe is sold under different names in different
countries, but we still sometimes refer to them as Eskimo Pies.

It's not intended as an insult to anyone, and just suggest that they resemble
pies in having an inside and a crust, but they are cold instead of hot. No one
believes that Eskimos actually make them, but most people know that the
majority of Eskimos live in a cold climate.

And the person who complained may bot be right on other things. While all
Inuit may be Eskimos, not all Eskimos are Inuit. A Yup'ik Eskimo might be
quite offended at being called Inuit.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yup%27ik

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

John O'Flaherty - 07 Feb 2010 20:42 GMT
>>>> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
>>>> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>"Magnum", which I believe is sold under different names in different
>countries, but we still sometimes refer to them as Eskimo Pies.

They're still around in the U.S.-
http://www.eskimopie.com/

>It's not intended as an insult to anyone, and just suggest that they resemble
>pies in having an inside and a crust, but they are cold instead of hot. No one
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yup%27ik
Fred - 07 Feb 2010 20:49 GMT
>>>>> One often hears that Eskimos have an unusually large number of words
>>>>> for "snow."
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> They're still around in the U.S.-
> http://www.eskimopie.com/

They're still around in New Zealand too. We also have Magnums and chocolate
bombs. The Eskimo pie is similar but without a stick.
Steve Hayes - 08 Feb 2010 05:42 GMT
>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:50:47 +0200, Steve Hayes

>>In South Africa in my youth we had Eskimo Pies, which were vanilla ice cream
>>coated with chocolate. They were a trade name but though the manucacturer has
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>They're still around in the U.S.-
>http://www.eskimopie.com/

The biggest one in the picture is what is colloquially referred to as an
Eskimo pie, though one manufacturer calls it a "Magnum" and another a "Feast".

The original article that did have the name was rectangular, and wasn't a
lolly (ie no stick).



>>It's not intended as an insult to anyone, and just suggest that they resemble
>>pies in having an inside and a crust, but they are cold instead of hot. No one
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yup%27ik

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Roland Hutchinson - 11 Feb 2010 06:29 GMT
>>On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:50:47 +0200, Steve Hayes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The original article that did have the name was rectangular, and wasn't
> a lolly (ie no stick).

A more recent American brand invoking the mythological frozen north,
likewise stickless, and as far as I know considered unobjectionable by
all, is the Klondike Bar.

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Roland Hutchinson       

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Feb 2010 00:17 GMT
> "Fred" <reg@parachute.net.nz> wrote in message
>> Are we allowed to use the term Eskimos? Apparantely a recent visitor to
>> our shores thought not.
>> .http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2348856/Eskimos-to-stay-maker-says
> I'll try a lnk that works!
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/2349017/Eskimo-lollies-rile-Inuit 

That Canadian tourist needs to read a bit more about the cultures
described by the term "Eskimo".  While it's true that the vast
majority of Eskimos in Canada (and Greenland) are Inuit, that's not
the case elsewhere.  Those in Alaska (and Siberia) are, I believe,
primarily Yup'ik.

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