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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 20102day's Spelling
A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage of "deep-seeded." Then I started thinking about it and figured that the two spelling versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded" version might seem to make more sense. Any other similar pairs out there? Maria Conlon, Whose opinions are rather deep-seated. > A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on > the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any other similar pairs out there? For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed they do.  SignatureJames > > A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on > > the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means > America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed they do. Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me. SignatureBob Lieblich Himself a bit eggy and corny > > > A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on > > > the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me. I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) -- Jerry Friedman > > > > A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on > > > > the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless > cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) Graded by size of particles? The "logic" behind an eggcorn doesn't have to make much sense. FWIW, the Eggcorn Database <http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns/> has "deep-seeded" but not "graded cheese." SignatureBob Lieblich Often taken for granite Robert Lieblich skrev: > Graded by size of particles? The "logic" behind an eggcorn doesn't > have to make much sense. With the Danish parallel to eggcorns we differentiate between ure spelling errors and misunderstandings. We cannot, however, do so with certainty because we can't look into the writer's brain. We make an educated guess. Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling. "Deep-seeded" I would file under "Eggcorn or spelling error?". SignatureBertel, Denmark Bertel Lund Hansen skrev: > With the Danish parallel to eggcorns we differentiate between ure > spelling errors ... like the one just made. Insert a p before "ure". SignatureBertel, Denmark > Robert Lieblich skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an > eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling. Making the assumption that for the person in question "grate" and "grade" are homonyms? > "Deep-seeded" I would file under "Eggcorn or spelling error?". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!" Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Yes, but I didn't tell them that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out," (650)857-7572 |said Susan. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > > Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an > > eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling. > Making the assumption that for the person in question "grate" and > "grade" are homonyms? Yes - and your question makes me realize that I was using my Danish perception. Is there an englishspeaking area where the two words are actually homonyms? SignatureBertel, Denmark On Feb 8, 7:12 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: > Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Danish perception. Is there an englishspeaking area where the two > words are actually homonyms? I'd be surprised, but my "grated" and "graded" are almost exact homonyms, if not exact. I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and "grade" instead. -- Jerry Friedman > On Feb 8, 7:12 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen > <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'd be surprised, but my "grated" and "graded" are almost exact > homonyms, if not exact. I'd be very surprised if you didn't, like most American speakers, systemmatically lengthen the first vowel in "graded" since it's followed by a voiced consonant. And I'd be very surprised if you scored anywhere near chance in distinguishing the words as spoken by yourself or other American speakers. We did this one in Phonetics & Phonology back in the '80s, when the easiest way to do it was still to play around with tape. Cut out segments from the "a" in "graded" and you reach a point where people hear it as "grated". Add in duplicates of segments from the middle of the "a" in "grated" and you reach a point where people hear it as "graded". Similarly "cap" and "cab", "writing" and "riding", etc. The consonants are the same, but the vowels measurably, perceptably, and systemmatically differ. > I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and "grade" instead. Because if a speaker pronounced "grate" and "grade" differently, I'd be very surprised if they, knowing the word to be the past tense of "grate", used a "sound spelling" of "graded". So the only time I'd expect it to come up would be when the entire paradigms are homonyms of one another. And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade", for most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At least at the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't released. It's [greIt] and [gre:It]. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Society in every state is a blessing, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |but government, even in its best Palo Alto, CA 94304 |state is but a necessary evil; in its |worst state, an intolerable one. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Thomas Paine (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> On Feb 8, 7:12 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen >> <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't released. It's > [greIt] and [gre:It]. This is very interesting . We non-AmEers rapidly get to the point where we no longer, or rarely, misunderstand when we hear this feature of American speech: I try to maintain a poetic ear, but I'd assumed that I was relying on contextual clues not the sounds themselves. It may also explain something I've been thinking (to no avail at all) about recently. I'm referring to the distinctly outlandish sounds made by some EFL speakers who've learnt AmE: these people seem to me to realise some sounds in a sometimes grating _caricature_ of American speech. I'm now thinking that what's going on in these cases is that perhaps they may be using only one version, instead of making the subtle distinction we expect from a native speaker: as it were, saying "graded" for both. There's something one sometimes hears with the "a" of "can" and "can't", too; and maybe others I haven't thought of. SignatureMike. >> And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade", >> for most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > assumed that I was relying on contextual clues not the sounds > themselves. I should point out that this goes both ways. Since BrE speakers *don't*, as a rule, make this vowel-length distinction, relying instead on actual voicing on the consonants (at least for intervocalic consonants) rather than reducing both to a flap, AmE speakers often have trouble hearing the distinction when you guys make it. I remember, in particular, one conversation in which a BrE "riding" was heard (due to the lack of lengthened vowel) as "writing", causing confusion. This confusion was exacerbated by his hearing our "writing" as "riding" (due to the voiced flap) and not understanding why we weren't understanding, since we were obviously repeating what he said. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Yesterday I washed a single sock. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |When I opened the door, the machine Palo Alto, CA 94304 |was empty. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > On Feb 8, 7:12 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen > > <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > The consonants are the same, but the vowels measurably, perceptably, > and systemmatically differ. I can hear this difference between my "grate" and "grade", but any difference between my "grated" and "graded" seems far smaller, and I can easily imagine someone misunderstanding me if they didn't know the difference from context. > > I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and "grade" instead. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expect it to come up would be when the entire paradigms are homonyms > of one another. Another time might be when the person has heard, in the context of cheese, only the past participle, and can only guess which verb it's associated with. Assuming they could tell "grate" from "grade" (at least when the final closure is released) but not "grated" from "graded". > And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade", for > most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At least at > the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't released. It's > [greIt] and [gre:It]. I think I have at least a slight difference in the final consonant, but it's irrelevant to this discussion. -- Jerry Friedman >>> On Feb 8, 7:12 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen >>> <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I think I have at least a slight difference in the final consonant, > but it's irrelevant to this discussion. In search of other examples, I found "balls of spiced, seasoned ground pork baddered in rice noodles" and other examples of "baddered". I also found Google examples of "taddered and torn". At a blog entitled "Philosophy Factory: The life and experiences of a community college philosophy teacher, department chair and former debate coach", the philosopher mentions "a top-raded liberal arts uni". Someone else writes: "my kids live in a gaded community". And a reviewer at Amazon writes: "She was the mother of the ill-faded King Carol II [of Romania]." I even found "baided breath", but the best result of that search was a poem by Geoffrey Taylor, "Cruel Clever Cat": Sally, having swallowed cheese, Directs down holes the scented breeze, Enticing thus with baited breath Nice mice to an untimely death. SignatureJames Jerry Friedman filted: >> > For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means >> > America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed the= [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless >cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) Maybe someone was thinking of the way pavers "grade" a road by screeding off the top layer of dirt and making it all nice and smooth....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Maybe someone was thinking of the way pavers "grade" a road by screeding off the > top layer of dirt and making it all nice and smooth....r Okay, I can now see that your suggestion and Peter Moylan's are possible. -- Jerry Friedman > Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > screeding off the top layer of dirt and making it all nice and > smooth....r But that would mean that a cheese grader would be something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Osthyvel_20050723_001.j pg/800px-Osthyvel_20050723_001.jpg , which doesn't quite fit with graded cheese being what it is. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> Jerry Friedman filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > , which doesn't quite fit with graded cheese being what it is. Note that the Swedish word for that implement is "osthyvel", while a road grader is called "väghyvel". Both are compounds of the same word, a "cheese plane" and a "way plane". SignatureJames James Hogg skrev: > Note that the Swedish word for that implement is "osthyvel", while a > road grader is called "väghyvel". Both are compounds of the same word, a > "cheese plane" and a "way plane". The same in Danish: "ostehøvl" and "vejhøvl". SignatureBertel, Denmark > James Hogg skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The same in Danish: "ostehøvl" and "vejhøvl". And English has a vaguely similar thing called a shøvl. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John Holmes filted: >> James Hogg skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >And English has a vaguely similar thing called a shøvl. Available in birch, cherry, or black walnut finish at your nearest IKEA....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Jerry Friedman: > I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless > cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) Well, it comes in Mild, Medium, Old, and sometimes Extra Old. Does that count? ("Sharp" instead of "Old" to some of you.) SignatureMark Brader | "...he entertained the notion that I was cribbing from Toronto | other [students' exams] until it was pointed out that msb@vex.net | I often had the only correct answer..." --Lars Eighner > I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless > cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the same size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" >> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) > > In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the > same size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes. If you shake the bowl a bit, it will become slightly more graded. The smaller bits will fall to the bottom, leaving the larger ones at the top. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" >>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > smaller bits will fall to the bottom, leaving the larger ones at the > top. Is this some kind of riddle? SignatureThe generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. [Robert R. Coveyou] >>>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" >>>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Is this some kind of riddle? No, this is an example of the well-known "Brazil-nut effect". SignatureLes (BrE) >> A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on >> the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed > they do. Im Bri'm we've nearly all avoided H1M1 burb flu. SignatureMike. Maria Conlon filted: >A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on the >screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded" >version might seem to make more sense. My opinion of such misunderstandings is deep-ceded....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on the >screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded" >version might seem to make more sense. What kind of seeds were they? I usually look at the instructions on the packet to see how deeply they should be seeded. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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