 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010As though it need include 'and'
Hello: 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include 'and'. 2. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it needs 'and' included. 3. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it needs to include 'and'. I'd say 1 is the most formal, and more hypothetical, as a result of using the subjunctive "need." I'd say 2 and 3 are less formal, less hypothetical, and that 3 is better than 2. How about it? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >How about it? Sentences have no feelings.  SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Marius Hancu wrote:: > 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include 'and'. > 2. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it needs 'and' [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How about it? I've been holding off to see if someone can explain the subject comprehensively, because I can't. I can tell you that #1 is wrong, but not why. There seem to be restrictions on using the uninflected third-person auxiliary "need" in positive statements, and the few permissible examples may well be the present subjunctive of it (if he need be present). . If so, then the problem with #1 is that the present subjunctive isn't called for in the modern construction. You need the indicative, as in your other examples, or the past subjunctive. I wouldn't pause at "as though it needed to include"; and it can be demonstrated that that is the subjunctive by substitution: "as though it were necessary for it to include". Note that the uninflected form isn't used in any of the other examples. This is demonstrated by the presence of "to", which doesn't appear with that form, or by giving the verb a direct object. > > 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include 'and'. > > 2. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it needs 'and' [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > If so, then the problem with #1 is that the present subjunctive isn't > called for in the modern construction. Well, I've found at Google Books: ---- Prisoners of the World - Page 80 Lisa J. Penning - Fiction - 2002 - 128 pages Sometime the flames hit the earth, like a teardrop will stain a pillow and remain there, as if it need to remind us of our fleeting youth. ---- The Desperate and the Damned - Page 11 Stephen J. Owens - Fiction - 2002 - 196 pages As if it need be said, I was hard. She removed her hands and for a brief moment I thought. What the hell is going on? I entered the store knowing I wanted .. --- Prisoners of the World - Page 80 Lisa J. Penning - Fiction - 2002 - 128 pages Sometime the flames hit the earth, like a teardrop will stain a pillow and remain there, as if it need to remind us of our fleeting youth. ... ---- all recent. However, I think you indeed have a point that the negative constructions are dominant in this usage. Thanks. Marius Hancu > Well, I've found at Google Books: > ---- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and > remain there, as if it need to remind us of our fleeting youth. I'd call that a proofreading error. > ---- > The Desperate and the Damned - Page 11 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I thought. What the hell is going on? I entered the store knowing I > wanted .. That's not an error, precisely, but in my opinion it's sloppy writing. It doesn't sound natural to me. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > > Well, I've found at Google Books: > > ---- [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > That's not an error, precisely, but in my opinion it's sloppy writing. > It doesn't sound natural to me. Thanks. Marius Hancu >>> 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include >>> 'and'. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > The Desperate and the Damned? - Page 11 > Stephen J. Owens - Fiction - 2002 - 196 pages That is the present subjunctive of the regular verb, not the uninflected auxiliary, as the use of "to" indicates. In my opinion, a wrong usage: would you accept "as if it be there to remind us"? > As if it need be said, I was hard. She removed her hands and for a > brief moment [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prisoners of the World? - Page 80 > Lisa J. Penning - Fiction - 2002 - 128 pages I think that's a mixing-up of "as if it [past subjunctive]" and "if need be"; in the second of these, "need" is a noun. I would expect "needed", or maybe "needed", depending on how contrafactual the writer wanted the comparison to be. The bad news is, you can find all kinds of examples in printed works of usages I disapprove of. The good news is, the usage around this kind of conditional is in such flux that few people, not including me, are sure of their parsing or their judgement all of the time, and fewer care. > Sometime the flames hit the earth, like a teardrop will stain a > pillow and > remain there, as if it need to remind us of our fleeting youth. ... Was there another example that got lost? > ---- > all recent. > > However, I think you indeed have a point that the negative > constructions are dominant in this usage. Still hoping for a grammaticus ex machina. > > 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include 'and'. > I've been holding off to see if someone can explain the subject > comprehensively, because I can't. I can tell you that #1 is wrong, > but not why. There seem to be restrictions on using the uninflected > third-person auxiliary "need" in positive statements, and the few > permissible examples may well be the present subjunctive of it (if he > need be present). Would you feel more comfortable with: "The sentence feels too reduced, as though it would need include 'and'?" Just curious. Marius Hancu >>> 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include >>> 'and'. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Just curious. No. After the auxiliary "would", you can't consider "need" an auxiliary, and the regular verb needs "to". Even then, I would strongly prefer the present indicative or past subjunctive (which would correspond to your "would" version): "as though it needs/needed to include". > >>> 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include > >>> 'and'. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > would correspond to your "would" version): "as though it needs/needed > to include". So would I:-) Thanks. Marius Hancu > > 1. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it need include 'and'. > > 2. The sentence feels too reduced, as though it needs 'and' [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > permissible examples may well be the present subjunctive of it (if he > need be present). Your assertions in the above re the positive/negative of "need" are confirmed by: ------- Palmer, "The English Verb," p. 27, where it is confirmed that for "dare" and "need" the distribution of the auxiliary forms is defective: positive AUXILIARY: [missing] FULL VERB: He needs to come. negative: AUXILIARY: He needn't come. FULL VERB: He doesn't need to come. inverted 'code': AUXILIARY: Need he come? FULL VERB: Does he need to come? He needs to come and so do I. With inversion and negation, then, both the auxiliaries and the full verb may be used (the latter, of course, with DO). In all other cases only the full verb occurs. ------ and by stats at Google Books. > If so, then the problem with #1 is that the present subjunctive isn't > called for in the modern construction. You need the indicative, as in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > other examples. This is demonstrated by the presence of "to", which > doesn't appear with that form, or by giving the verb a direct object. Thanks. Marius Hancu |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.