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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010While/whereas/instead of
Hello: Any objections to any of the: 1. "They are not auxiliaries, as/the way 'need' can be, and this is made clear by the to-infinitive that follows these verbs, while/ whereas auxiliaries are followed by the bare infinitive." 2. "Unlike 'need,' they are not at times auxiliaries, and this is made clear by the to-infinitive that follows them/these verbs, while/ whereas auxiliaries are followed by the bare infinitive." 3. "They are not auxiliaries, as/the way 'need' can be, and this is made clear by the to-infinitive that follows these verbs in lieu of/ instead of the bare infinitive that follows auxiliaries. esp any concerns on the scope and use of "whereas," "while," "in lieu of," here? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > esp any concerns on the scope and use of "whereas," "while," "in lieu > of," here? I'd love to help but I have no idea what you are asking or what those passages are intended to convey.  SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I'd love to help but I have no idea what you are asking or what those > passages are intended to convey. Talking about verbs which are compared in their functionality with "need." Thanks. Marius Hancu > Any objections to any of the: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > esp any concerns on the scope and use of "whereas," "while," "in > lieu of," here? Yes. Except in a legal context, I would prefer "while" to "whereas", and "instead of" or "in place of" to "in lieu of". Those words are too formal for ordinary discourse. On the other hand, I would prefer "as" to "the way", which is a little too informal for the kind of statement these sentences are making. > > Any objections to any of the: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "as" to "the way", which is a little too informal for the kind of > statement these sentences are making. Thank you. But you don't see anything except this _preference_ against using "whereas" in them? And BTW, I'd appreciate feedback from others too. Marius Hancu > > > Any objections to any of the: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > But you don't see anything except this _preference_ against using > "whereas" in them? I can't describe the circumstances in which I'd use "in lieu of," but they are quite limited. > And BTW, I'd appreciate feedback from others too. Like John D., I'm distracted by the content. I can't think of a time when "need" is followed by a bare infinitive, which this passage appears to claim. "I need work" and "I need love" don't count, those are nouns. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > > > Any objections to any of the: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > made clear by the to-infinitive that follows them/these verbs, > > > > while/ whereas auxiliaries are followed by the bare infinitive." I might use "as" or "since" rather than "while" or "whereas". Or I might make the sentence parallel: Unlike "need", they can never be auxiliaries, as is made clear by the to-infinitive that follows them in contrast to the bare infinitive that follows auxiliaries. There are lots of other possibilities too. > > > > 3. "They are not auxiliaries, as/the way 'need' can be, and this is > > > > made clear by the to-infinitive that follows these verbs in lieu of/ [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I can't describe the circumstances in which I'd use "in lieu of," but > they are quite limited. For me, the circumstances might be limited to making a pun or a rhyme or something. > > And BTW, I'd appreciate feedback from others too. > > Like John D., I'm distracted by the content. I can't think of a time > when "need" is followed by a bare infinitive, which this passage appears > to claim. "I need work" and "I need love" don't count, those are nouns. "Need only" and "need not" are often followed by bare infinitives. -- Jerry Friedman > > > > > 1. "They are not auxiliaries, as/the way 'need' can be, and this is > > > > > made clear by the to-infinitive that follows these verbs, while/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I might use "as" or "since" rather than "while" or "whereas". Or I > might make the sentence parallel: I don't think "as" or "since" would work, as the intended meaning not "because", but: ----- whereas: 3 a : when in fact : while on the contrary : the case being in truth that -- used to introduce a statement in opposition or contrast to a preceding or sometimes following statement <was spending practically all of his time on the inside dealing with things, whereas his yearnings were to deal more with people -- W.J.Reilly> ----- while 3 a : at the same time that on the contrary : when on the other hand : WHEREAS <for many people a line of ten words requires perhaps eight fixations, while a good reader can grasp half a line as a unit -- Russell Cosper & Barriss Mills> <while her book shows the uneven hand of a novice at writing, it frequently stops the reader by its poetic simplicity -- Rose Feld> M-W Unabridged --- > Unlike "need", they can never be auxiliaries, as is made clear by the > to-infinitive that follows them in contrast to the bare infinitive > that follows auxiliaries. Thanks. Marius Hancu > I don't think "as" or "since" would work, as the intended meaning not > "because", but: ... _is_ not "because," but ... Donna Richoux filted: >Like John D., I'm distracted by the content. I can't think of a time >when "need" is followed by a bare infinitive, which this passage appears >to claim. "I need work" and "I need love" don't count, those are nouns. You need look no further than this reply....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Donna Richoux filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You need look no further than this reply....r All right, that's valid, but my first thought was to wonder if it was an isolated fossil -- can you "need do" anything except look no further? So I did (contrary to your statement) look a bit further. I found that there are a fair number of people who say "All you need do is..." and some variations like "You need do one of three things." I wouldn't say either, myself, but they don't sound strange or terrible. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> > Any objections to any of the: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >And BTW, I'd appreciate feedback from others too. I think "while" is better than "whereas" because "whereas" requires a closer match of the grammatical structures being compared. (1) appears to say "this is made clear by"... "whereas" ...which ought to lead on to something else not being clear. For some reason "while" is not as prescriptive. You could cure it by "this is clear from the fact that auxiliaries are followed by a to-infinitive, whereas these verbs are followed by a bare infinitive" - but it gets a bit wordy. I don't like "in lieu of", which I would only use for a rather more legal or financial situation, and reluctantly even then, as it sounds pompous to me. In all three, I would much prefer "them" to "these verbs" as there is a perfectly clear referent in the previous "they" - "these verbs" at first looked to me as though it was referring back to "auxiliaries" instead. I don't like "the way" for the reason someone else gave. I don't much like (2), because "at times auxiliaries" in clumsy. In fact I don't like any of them all that much, and could suggest several ways of saying the same thing more clearly = but that's not what you asked! Katy On Feb 12, 5:32 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote: > In fact I don't like any of them all that much, and could suggest several ways > of saying the same thing more clearly = but that's not what you asked! No, but I'm kindly asking it now. Could you reformulate both 1 and 2 with both "while" and "whereas," to agree with your taste and pleasure:-)? Thank you. Marius Hancu On Feb 12, 5:32 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote: > I think "while" is better than "whereas" because "whereas" requires a closer > match of the grammatical structures being compared. Could you articulate that in more detail? The definitions I have in mind are: ----- whereas: 3 a : when in fact : while on the contrary : the case being in truth that -- used to introduce a statement in opposition or contrast to a preceding or sometimes following statement <was spending practically all of his time on the inside dealing with things, whereas his yearnings were to deal more with people -- W.J.Reilly> ----- while 3 a : at the same time that on the contrary : when on the other hand : WHEREAS <for many people a line of ten words requires perhaps eight fixations, while a good reader can grasp half a line as a unit -- Russell Cosper & Barriss Mills> <while her book shows the uneven hand of a novice at writing, it frequently stops the reader by its poetic simplicity -- Rose Feld> M-W Unabridged --- > For some reason "while" is not as prescriptive. > > You could cure it by "this is clear from the fact that auxiliaries are > followed by a to-infinitive, whereas these verbs are followed by a bare > infinitive" - but it gets a bit wordy. That seems quite OK to me, but please show us your preferred writings and, if possible, indicate why they're better. Thanks. Marius Hancu >On Feb 12, 5:32 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >of a novice at writing, it frequently stops the reader by its poetic >simplicity -- Rose Feld> To me, using "whereas" in the second example would be clumsy - not wrong, just not stylish. I would say that "while x, y" merely puts the two whole statements x and y side by side to contrast two situations, and "whereas" is neater when the two statements are grammatically parallel. So I would say "While I don't much like walnuts, this cake seems to me very good", but "whereas I don't much like walnuts, I adore hazelnuts". "While" would be acceptable to me in the second sentence, but "whereas" would not in the first. But this is a matter of preference, just like the nuts. >That seems quite OK to me, but please show us your preferred writings >and, if possible, indicate why they're better. I've lost the original message that started all this, so if you want a rewrite, you'd better email me the originals, or repost them if you think it won't bore everyone else! Katy |
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