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Noun modifiers

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Claude Weil - 12 Feb 2010 19:53 GMT
Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
know the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".
Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

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CW

--
cweil@gmx.net

Don Phillipson - 12 Feb 2010 20:30 GMT
> . . .  "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
> Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

We do not doubt you truly report your intuition -- but you suggested
no reasons (logic) or evidence (usage) why anyone else
should think one phrase (1) more majestic, (2) much more
majestic, than the other.

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Fred - 12 Feb 2010 20:39 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who know
> the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be tantamount
> to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan". Similarly, "The
> Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The Crown Jewels". Or am I
> wrong?

Yes.
Eric Walker - 12 Feb 2010 20:52 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who know
> the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
> tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".
> Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
> Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

Some would say the full of-genitive form is more sonorous, others would
feel it's needlessly wordy.  I incline to the former view, and don't see
how anyone could incline to the latter, but doubtless many do.

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Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

ke10@cam.ac.uk - 12 Feb 2010 22:37 GMT
>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
>> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who know
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>feel it's needlessly wordy.  I incline to the former view, and don't see
>how anyone could incline to the latter, but doubtless many do.

I think the Crown Jewels have been so called since time immemorial.  If anyone
talked about the Jewels of the Crown I wouldn't have a clue what they meant.
I would probably suspect it was a TV programme I hadn't seen.

Katy
James Hogg - 12 Feb 2010 23:04 GMT
>>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of
>>> Y" construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> what they meant. I would probably suspect it was a TV programme I
> hadn't seen.

Just as I have never seen a book published by The Press of the University of
Oxford.

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James

Robert Bannister - 13 Feb 2010 00:10 GMT
>>>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of
>>>> Y" construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Just as I have never seen a book published by The Press of the University of
> Oxford.

I don't think they publish: they prey on unsuspecting Oxford drunks who
wake up the next morning to find themselves jolly tars in Her Majesty's
Navy.

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Rob Bannister

Jerry Friedman - 13 Feb 2010 06:04 GMT
On Feb 12, 3:37 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <hl4f1t$rv...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
> >> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> >> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who know
> >> the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
> >> tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".

Because it misinterprets the Finnish?

> >> Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
> >> Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

I'd say it depends on the situation.  "Of" is sometimes a needless,
colorless little word that I'm happy to eliminate.  On the other hand,
when what follows is a phrase, the "of" form sometimes avoids a multi-
word-attributive-noun-pile-up disaster.  Also, the "of" sometimes
makes the relationships clearer.

> >Some would say the full of-genitive form is more sonorous, others would
> >feel it's needlessly wordy.  I incline to the former view, and don't see
> >how anyone could incline to the latter, but doubtless many do.

For "the Jewels of the Crown"?  Heck yeah, I incline to the latter
view.  Of all the things that you don't have to puff up...

> I think the Crown Jewels have been so called since time immemorial.  If anyone
> talked about the Jewels of the Crown I wouldn't have a clue what they meant.
> I would probably suspect it was a TV programme I hadn't seen.

Google Books thinks both phrases date to the mid 17th Century or so,
unless I'm missing ye rizt variaunt spellynge or something.  Somebody
(Henrietta Maria?) seems to have hocked some of them in France,
attracting a lot of comment.

--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Bannister - 13 Feb 2010 00:09 GMT
>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
>> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who know
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> feel it's needlessly wordy.  I incline to the former view, and don't see
> how anyone could incline to the latter, but doubtless many do.

But the "Jewels of the Crown" isn't as good as the "Jewels in the Crown".

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Rob Bannister

Donna Richoux - 12 Feb 2010 20:59 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
> know the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
> tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".
> Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
> Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

The Prize of Pulitzer? The Institution of Smithson?
HVS - 14 Feb 2010 15:30 GMT
On 12 Feb 2010, Donna Richoux wrote

>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of
>> Y" construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The Prize of Pulitzer? The Institution of Smithson?

Those do sound silly -- but are you also suggesting that The Shallot
Lady, Loxley Robin, The Seville Barber, and The Monte Cristo Count
haven't lost any resonance?

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

R H Draney - 14 Feb 2010 16:38 GMT
HVS filted:

>On 12 Feb 2010, Donna Richoux wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Lady, Loxley Robin, The Seville Barber, and The Monte Cristo Count
>haven't lost any resonance?

We can have lots of fun with this:
 The Knot of Gordium?
 The Variations of Goldberg?
 The Section (or The Salad) of Caesar?

....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

HVS - 14 Feb 2010 17:16 GMT
On 14 Feb 2010, R H Draney wrote

> HVS filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>   The Variations of Goldberg?
>   The Section (or The Salad) of Caesar?

Give that man a Congressional Honor Medal and a parade down The
Americas Avenue!

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Chuck Riggs - 15 Feb 2010 12:09 GMT
>HVS filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>  The Variations of Goldberg?
>  The Section (or The Salad) of Caesar?

The Divide of the Continent?
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE

HVS - 15 Feb 2010 14:52 GMT
On 15 Feb 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote

>> HVS filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> The Divide of the Continent?

The US has The Congress Houses and the House of White, while the UK
makes do with the Commons House and the Palace of Buckingham.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

James Hogg - 15 Feb 2010 14:58 GMT
> On 15 Feb 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> The US has The Congress Houses and the House of White, while the UK
> makes do with the Commons House and the Palace of Buckingham.

How about the Light Brigade Charge?

Into Death Valley
Rode the six hundred.

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James

HVS - 15 Feb 2010 15:06 GMT
On 15 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote

>> On 15 Feb 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Into Death Valley
> Rode the six hundred.

Classy;  on a more recent note, I understand that soome Christians
disliked "Monty Python's Brian's Life", as they thought it
ridiculed Nazareth Jesus.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Stan Brown - 15 Feb 2010 15:48 GMT
Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:06:57 GMT from HVS
<usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:

> On 15 Feb 2010, James Hogg wrote
> > How about the Light Brigade Charge?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> disliked "Monty Python's Brian's Life", as they thought it
> ridiculed Nazareth Jesus.

Shouldn't that be "Brian's Life of Monty Python"?  :-)

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Robert Bannister - 16 Feb 2010 00:50 GMT
>> On 15 Feb 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Into Death Valley
> Rode the six hundred.

I think some of these example are beginning to show up a pattern of
which are names and which are purely descriptive, although it's still
impossible to distinguish in every case. A congress house is clearly a
brothel, the House of White is a gentlemen's club in London, a commons
house is a refectory building. On the other hand, the Palace of
Buckingham would make perfect sense if, instead of being the London
residence of the dukes of Buckingham, it had been situated in Buckingham
- compare the Palace of Westminster. The Light Brigade charge sounds
pretty normal too, and Death Valley only seems odd because the national
park in south western USA is well-known.

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Rob Bannister

Stan Brown - 14 Feb 2010 18:04 GMT
Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:30:31 GMT from HVS
<usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:
> Those do sound silly -- but are you also suggesting that The
> Shallot Lady,

She's a fixture at the Farmers' Market -- she also sells homegrown
leeks.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

HVS - 14 Feb 2010 21:52 GMT
On 14 Feb 2010, Stan Brown wrote

> Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:30:31 GMT from HVS
><usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> She's a fixture at the Farmers' Market -- she also sells homegrown
> leeks.

Probably grown by Harlech Men...

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Stan Brown - 15 Feb 2010 15:47 GMT
Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:52:34 GMT from HVS
<usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:

> On 14 Feb 2010, Stan Brown wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Probably grown by Harlech Men...

Her stall is right next to that of the Dell Farmer.

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Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
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Shikata ga nai...

Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Feb 2010 00:55 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
> know the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
> tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".
> Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
> Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

I don't even think they mean the same thing to me.  I'd tak "the
Jewels of the Crown" to refer to jewels in some specific crown, while
"the Crown Jewels" are jewels belonging to the ruler, the "crown" by
metonymy.  Of course, it's possible that if people had been referring
to the latter as "the jewels of the crown" for centuries it would seem
natural.

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Steve Hayes - 13 Feb 2010 07:43 GMT
>Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
>construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
>know the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
>tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".
>Similarly, "The Jewels of the Crown" is far more majestic than "The
>Crown Jewels". Or am I wrong?

And then there is bureaucratese.

You can say "The Department of Education" or "The education department", but
the bureaucrats like to say "the Department Education".

And it's not just a South African thing; cf. Statistics Canada.

Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Zhang Dawei - 13 Feb 2010 10:35 GMT
> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?

How about the differences between a green crown or a crown green?

shop furniture or furniture shop?

fat pig or pig fat?

Or indeed any pair of words where each word can function as both and
adjective and a noun, and either order of the two words makes sense
and can refer to something.

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Zhang Dawei: Stoke-on-Trent, UK.
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James Hogg - 13 Feb 2010 11:42 GMT
>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> adjective and a noun, and either order of the two words makes sense
> and can refer to something.

But this has nothing to do with the OP's question about the relative
majesty of "Cambridge University" and "The University of Cambridge".

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James

Zhang Dawei - 13 Feb 2010 11:52 GMT
>>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> But this has nothing to do with the OP's question about the relative
> majesty of "Cambridge University" and "The University of Cambridge".

Sorry, I thought the discussion was moving on, and thought that some
instances where the word order definitely affected the meaning in
similar cases was worthwhile posting.

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Zhang Dawei - 13 Feb 2010 12:04 GMT
>>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> But this has nothing to do with the OP's question about the relative
> majesty of "Cambridge University" and "The University of Cambridge".

On further investigation, the original message said nothing, as far as
I can see, about the name of any university, whether it be in
Cambridge or otherwise. It was about the name of one of the movements
from Opus 22 (Lemminkäinen Suite) by Sibelius, and, although it could
have been about an issue of "ralative majesty" of itys name, this
interpretation of yours need not be the only one.

On my system, the key part of the original question was:

<begin quote>
Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX".
<end quote>

which later led to a post stating:

<begin quote>
And then there is bureaucratese.

You can say "The Department of Education" or "The education
department", but
the bureaucrats like to say "the Department Education".

And it's not just a South African thing; cf. Statistics Canada.

Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
<end quote>

So, following on from the above extract just given seems quite
reasonable: the bureaucratese style of replacing "the X of Y" by, not
just "the Y X", but with "the X Y" leads to comprehensible phrases
that are quite different in meaning to what is intended.

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James Hogg - 13 Feb 2010 12:15 GMT
>>>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> just "the Y X", but with "the X Y" leads to comprehensible phrases
> that are quite different in meaning to what is intended.

You have identified the exact point where the thread drift began.

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James

Zhang Dawei - 13 Feb 2010 12:23 GMT
>> which later led to a post stating:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> You have identified the exact point where the thread drift began.

Well, threads drift, but even if one does not want to allow that, I
gave examples where "the X Y" and "the Y X" cause large shifts in
meaning. This could have been interpreted as being a useful stop to
that thread drift at that point, and thus quite relevant to keeping
the thread on topic, and thus not in itself a cause for your original
implication that my posting was "off topic" and perhaps should not
have been made. I'm not wanting to make a big issue about it, but I do
think you were a bit too hasty in your original message which replied
to mine.
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R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 18:03 GMT
Zhang Dawei filted:

>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>adjective and a noun, and either order of the two words makes sense
>and can refer to something.

I offered an SDC warmup question here a few years about about packages labelled
"cable modem" and "modem cable" (with the reverse on the back for Francophone
markets)....

I wonder if Rich Little and Little Richard ever get each other's fan mail by
mistake....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

CDB - 13 Feb 2010 15:37 GMT
>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
>> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> And it's not just a South African thing; cf. Statistics Canada.

That was once the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.  It became Statistics
Canada to make a neat match with /Statistique Canada/, thenceforward
no longer /le Bureau fédéral de la statistique/, when the push for
bilingualism started in the 70s.  Is there some similar relationship
at work in SA?

> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?

Less easily than between Pie-XII and douze pies, unless the former had
just eaten half a pie all by himself, in which case there would be a
similar relationship.
Steve Hayes - 14 Feb 2010 05:00 GMT
>>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
>>> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>bilingualism started in the 70s.  Is there some similar relationship
>at work in SA?

Probably. We had an institution called, in Afrikaans, "Technikon Pretoria",
and in English I always referred to it as "Pretoria Technikon".

The problem has been solved by its being renamed "The Tshwane University of
Technology".

>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>
>Less easily than between Pie-XII and douze pies, unless the former had
>just eaten half a pie all by himself, in which case there would be a
>similar relationship.

That I know from nothing, as Tom Lehrer would say.

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CDB - 14 Feb 2010 14:40 GMT
>>>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of
>>>> Y" construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> The problem has been solved by its being renamed "The Tshwane
> University of Technology".

Afrika(a)ners (sp?) are now an oppressed minority?

>>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> That I know from nothing, as Tom Lehrer would say.

I was being bilingual.  Our Eugenio would then have been as full of
blackbirds as a pie of apples.

Pie, Pie, the pious' Dad,
Caught twelves pies and was awful sad.
"It's four-and-twenty in the recipe --
And half a pie's just right for me --
But there's Herr Hitler coming for tea --
Another fast day, up by the See!"
Steve Hayes - 14 Feb 2010 15:05 GMT
>>>>> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of
>>>>> Y" construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>
>Afrika(a)ners (sp?) are now an oppressed minority?

Afrikaners.

No, they are not an oppressed minority.

>>>> Can you tell the difference between an apple pie and a pie apple?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>But there's Herr Hitler coming for tea --
>Another fast day, up by the See!"

Afrikaners used to have the idea that being bilingual meant bein g able to
speak Afrikaans.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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Lars Enderin - 13 Feb 2010 11:45 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
> know the piece by Sibelius titled "The Swan of Tuonela", it would be
> tantamount to a crime to change its title to "The Tuonela Swan".

The original Finnish name seems to be "Tuonelan joutsen" (or Tuonen
joutsen), and the Swedish name is "Tuonelas svan", so I fail to see why
it has to be "The Swan of Tuonela" in English. "Tuonela's swan" would be
a closer translation.
Stan Brown - 13 Feb 2010 12:31 GMT
Sat, 13 Feb 2010 12:45:50 +0100 from Lars Enderin
<lars.enderin@telia.com>:

> > Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> > construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it has to be "The Swan of Tuonela" in English. "Tuonela's swan" would be
> a closer translation.

That point occurred to me too.  But idiom plays a part.  "Danmarks
Dronning" (I hope I have the spelling right" is properly translated
"The Queen of Denmark" and not the more literal "Denmark's Queen".

I don't understand the OP's issue with "majestic", though.  To me it
seems obvious that using too many nouns attributively, like doing too
much of anything, makes writing inelegant and hard to follow. But
that's no reason to avoid them completely.

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John Lawler - 13 Feb 2010 16:02 GMT
> Is it to gain time, space, spit or effort, the use of "the X of Y"
> construction seems to dwindle in favour of "the YX". For those who
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> cw...@gmx.net

Neither.  They're two different constructions, out of many.
There's also, for instance "The Jewel(s) in the Crown" and
"The Crown's Jewel(s)".  English has any number of ways
to combine two nouns into proper names, idioms, and
specialized compounds.

Consider, for instance, "pony ride" and "snake bite".  They
both consist of an animal and an action; but in one the
pony is the thing that gets ridden, while in the other the
snake is the thing that does the biting.  Is there any way
to predict? No.  We learn them all individually and rarely
even notice the difference.

In the particular case of NP of NP phrases, there is in
fact an historical explanation. English has borrowed about
half its vocabulary from Latin and French, as a result of
about a millennium of contact with the cultures of the
Continent, and the linguistic result is that we have both
a Romance way of forming genitives ("X of Y") and
a Germanic way ("Y's X").  This is just the way it is,
and neither time, space, spit, or effort is involved.

Given this situation (which is a very common one in
English), we tend to find uses for the difference; so
it's normal, for instance, for the Germanic construction
to be used when the possessor is animate ("the dog's leg")
while the Romance one tends to be used when it's not
("the leg of the table").

That doesn't mean that it's *wrong* to use them the
other way, but it does mean that saying "the leg of
the dog" or "the table's leg" is what linguists call a
"marked usage" -- i.e, odd in some sense, not the norm,
emphasized -- and such usages invite further speculations.

This is one of the tools writers can use to shape the
experience for their readers, and another example of
the principle that careful readers pay careful attention
to what hasn't been said, but could have been.

-John Lawler      http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler
"A man does not know what he is saying until
 he knows what he is not saying."
 -- G.K. Chesterton, 1936, "As I Was Saying"
Claude Weil - 13 Feb 2010 19:55 GMT
Judging from some replies to my post, might I suppose that "England
Queen" has preference in some minds over "Queen of England"?

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