Transbordement
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England uses the word "transbordment" in the English version of the report.
This appears to be a direct translation of the French "transbordement". My ancient French-English dictionary gives "transshipment" as the English translation.
In the report it refers to the transfer of passengers from a failed train to a rescue train.
A Google search finds only 34 examples of "transbordment". Many of them are references to "Sociéte Cherbourgeoise Transbordment", others appear to be French alternative spellings of "transbordement" and the rest appear to be French-influenced (Canada and Switzerland).
Judging by the content of the results the "Sociéte Cherbourgeoise Transbordment" was in the business of using tenders to transfer passengers between the dockside and ocean liners.
Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Pablo - 13 Feb 2010 14:08 GMT > Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?
 Signature Pablo
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 15:52 GMT >> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? > >I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it? I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of passengers between trains.
http://www.eurostarindependentreview.org/
English wording:
The evacuation plan With one train having been towed from the Tunnel towards Folkestone, four trains now needed to be recovered. The evacuation plan was as follows: 1) The Krupps Rescue Locomotive from Calais would ‘push’ the 9055 and 9059 through the north tunnel to the UK emergency sidings 2) Passengers from train 9053 would be evacuated onto Eurotunnel vehicle shuttle 6668 and proceed to the UK through the south tunnel 3) Passengers from train 9057 would be evacuated onto Eurotunnel vehicle shuttle 6667 and return to Coquelles (back through the south tunnel) <diagram> Following completion of these transbordments, passengers were transported from the Tunnel.
French wording:
Le plan d’évacuation Un train ayant été remorqué du tunnel vers Folkestone, il restait alors quatre trains à secourir. Le plan d’évacuation suivant a été adopté : 1) La locomotive de secours Krupp venant de Calais devait « pousser » les trains 9055 et 9059 dans le tunnel Nord vers les voies d’évitement en cas d’urgence au Royaume-Uni 2) Les passagers du train 9053 seraient évacués sur la navette Eurotunnel 6668 et continueraient jusqu’au Royaume-Uni par le tunnel Sud 3) Les passagers du train 9057 seraient évacués sur la navette Eurotunnel 6667 et retourneraient à Calais (par le tunnel Sud) <diagram> À la suite de ces transbordements, les passagers ont été acheminés à l’extérieur du tunnel.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Jeffrey Turner - 13 Feb 2010 17:17 GMT >>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? >>> >> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it? > > I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of passengers > between trains. Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train to the other. I wouldn't use the word transshipment, that's for cargo. I'm not sure there's one word in English that fits the whole idea. "Transbordment" isn't English. It doesn't even look English. At the very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'.
--Jeff
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James Silverton - 13 Feb 2010 18:15 GMT Jeffrey wrote on Sat, 13 Feb 2010 12:17:34 -0500:
>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? >>>> >>> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it? >> >> I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of >> passengers between trains.
> Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train > to the other. I wouldn't use the word transshipment, that's > for cargo. I'm not sure there's one word in English that fits the > whole idea. "Transbordment" isn't English. It doesn't > even look English. At the very least, there needs to be an > 'a' after the 'o'. Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard" meaning "To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to tranship" (OED)
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R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 20:13 GMT James Silverton filted:
>Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard" meaning >"To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to tranship" (OED) "Tranship" is itself odd...my spellchecker doesn't like it (but accepts "transship"), and how would you hyphenate it at the end of a line?...
Is this another manifestation of collapsed double letters, as I've seen in "withold" and "hitchike"?...r
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James Silverton - 13 Feb 2010 20:19 GMT R wrote on 13 Feb 2010 12:13:36 -0800:
> James Silverton filted: >> >> Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard" >> meaning "To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to >> tranship" (OED)
> "Tranship" is itself odd...my spellchecker doesn't like it > (but accepts "transship"), and how would you hyphenate it at > the end of a line?...
> Is this another manifestation of collapsed double letters, as > I've seen in "withold" and "hitchike"?...r Actually, I noticed the single "s" where I would have used two but I was copying exactly from the OED. I have not bothered to look up "tranship".
 Signature James Silverton Potomac, Maryland
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R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 23:23 GMT James Silverton filted:
> R wrote on 13 Feb 2010 12:13:36 -0800: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Actually, I noticed the single "s" where I would have used two but I was >copying exactly from the OED. I have not bothered to look up "tranship". Google counts are almost dead even: 98,200 for the single-S version; 94,600 for the double....r
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 18:27 GMT >>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Transbordment" isn't English. It doesn't even look English. At the >very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'. Using the word "shuttle" in this context risks serious ambiguity. The trains that carry road vehicles through the tunnel are known as shuttles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Shuttle
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Mark Brader - 13 Feb 2010 18:31 GMT Peter Duncanson:
>>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? "Pablo":
>>>> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it? Jeff Turner:
>> Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train to >> the other. No they weren't; they walked. To be "shuttled" would imply that they were carried on yet another vehicle.
Peter Duncanson:
> Using the word "shuttle" in this context risks serious ambiguity. The > trains that carry road vehicles through the tunnel are known as > shuttles. That too.
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Robert Bannister - 13 Feb 2010 23:37 GMT >>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Transbordment" isn't English. It doesn't even look English. At the > very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'. "Shuttle" sounds quite wrong to me - I always expect the possibility of a return when shuttles are involved. Plain old "transfer" will do if you don't like "transship" - OMG, it's one of those words like "skilful": only one S.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes - 14 Feb 2010 05:08 GMT >>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Transbordment" isn't English. It doesn't even look English. At the >very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'. Wouldn't the English word be "transfer"?
That is often used for changing trains, or buses, for from one mode of transport to another, or even from an airport to a hotel.
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tsuidf - 14 Feb 2010 17:38 GMT On Feb 13, 4:52 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English? > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > À la suite de ces transbordements, les passagers ont été acheminés à > l’extérieur du tunnel. Never mind the transbordements, I'm baffled by the inverted commas around 'push' and 'pousser'. Was it not really pushing them, or...????
cheers, Stephanie
who is very glad that she, YM, and Son of YM were not involved in any of the above, although statistically we might well have been
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Feb 2010 20:03 GMT >On Feb 13, 4:52 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >around 'push' and 'pousser'. Was it not really pushing them, >or...???? Obvious hypothesis: the inverted commas are used to indicate that 'push' and 'pousser' are descriptive rather than technical terms.
On reading the reports this hypothesis crumples.
Eurotunnel took the decision to recover both 9059 and 9055 using the Krupp recovery locomotive from the French side. The plan was to attach the Krupps to 9059, moving forward to attach to 9055, and to propel the two trains out of the Tunnel towards the Folkestone terminal. This was the first time this manoeuvre had been undertaken and the CCC is to be congratulated on taking this decision.
Eurotunnel a pris la décision de secourir à la fois le 9059 et le 9055 en utilisant les locomotives de récupération Krupps stationnées du côté français. Le plan était d'atteler les Krupps au 9059, pour mettre en contact 9059 et 9055, et de pousser les deux trains hors du tunnel en direction du terminal de Folkestone. C’est la première fois qu’une telle manœuvre était tentée. Il faut féliciter le CCC d’avoir pris une telle décision.
Might the section of the report outlining the evacuation plan have been written first in English and then translated into French? The use of the scare-quoted word "'push'" rather than "propel" as used in the detailed descriptions later might have some slight justification. But the use of scare-quoted "« pousser »" rather than the straightfoward "pousser" as used in the detailed descriptions seems odd.
>Stephanie
>who is very glad that she, YM, and Son of YM were not involved in any >of the above, although statistically we might well have been
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Mark Brader - 16 Feb 2010 19:15 GMT Peter Duncanson quoted:
>>> 1) The Krupps Rescue Locomotive from Calais would 'push' the 9055 >>> and 9059 through the north tunnel to the UK emergency sidings
>>> 1) La locomotive de secours Krupp venant de Calais devait >>> « pousser » les trains 9055 et 9059 dans le tunnel Nord vers les >>> voies d'évitement en cas d'urgence au Royaume-Uni Stephanie Mitchell commented:
>> Never mind the transbordements, I'm baffled by the inverted commas >> around 'push' and 'pousser'. Was it not really pushing them, >> or...???? Peter Duncanson wrote:
> Obvious hypothesis: the inverted commas are used to indicate that 'push' > and 'pousser' are descriptive rather than technical terms. Perhaps the writer had it in mind that "pushing" was something a person does rather than a machine. This is nonsense, of course.
> On reading the reports this hypothesis crumples. > > .... The plan was to attach the Krupps to 9059, moving forward > to attach to 9055, and to propel the two trains out of the Tunnel ... In some British railway writing, when talking about how a locomotive moves a train, instead of "push" and "pull" they use "propel" and "haul" respectively. This silly jargon is what we're seeing here. (Silly because "propel" does not, in any other context, imply pushing rather than pulling.)
> ... Le plan était d'atteler les Krupps au 9059, pour > mettre en contact 9059 et 9055, et de pousser les deux trains hors > du tunnel ...
> Might the section of the report outlining the evacuation plan have been > written first in English and then translated into French? The use of the > scare-quoted word "'push'" rather than "propel" as used in the detailed > descriptions later might have some slight justification. Only if you think "propel" is the only proper word. I'm guessing that the writer *did* think that, but for some reason didn't use it, leaving a pair of unaccountable quotation marks, which were then retained in the French.
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Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 16:49 GMT > The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five > Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England > uses the word "transbordment" in the English version of the report. A roadway would have been more practical. I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French ideas.
R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 17:51 GMT Ray O'Hara filted:
>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five >> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French >ideas. If they didn't learn that from the Maginot Line, there's no hope for 'em....r
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 18:02 GMT >> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five >> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French >ideas. I understand that a road tunnel would have been much more expensive. I have a distant recollection of this being talked about before construction began.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 19:23 GMT >>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five >>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > have a distant recollection of this being talked about before > construction began. Initial cost needs to be compared to later saving. The Romans built expensive roads that crossed all obstacles. The straight course saved time and time is money.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 20:10 GMT >>>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five >>>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >The Romans built expensive roads that crossed all obstacles. The straight >course saved time and time is money. There was no reasonable alternative to the Roman roads. If you needed to travel somewhere you used the roads provided. The Channel Tunnel was, and is, competing with existing successful cross-channel ferry services.
I seem to remember that a crucial aspect of the tunnel was that it would be a commercial operation not a public service.
Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel
In 1979, the "Mouse-hole Project" was suggested when the Conservatives came to power in Britain. The concept was a single-track rail tunnel with a service tunnel, but without shuttle terminals. The British government took no interest in funding the project, but Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher said she had no objection to a privately funded project. In 1981 British and French leaders Margaret Thatcher and François Mitterrand agreed to set up a working group to look into a privately funded project, and in April 1985 promoters were formally invited to submit scheme proposals. Four submissions were shortlisted: * a rail proposal based on the 1975 scheme presented by Channel Tunnel Group/France–Manche (CTG/F–M), * Eurobridge: a 4.5 km span suspension bridge with a roadway in an enclosed tube * Euroroute: a 21 km tunnel between artificial islands approached by bridges, and * Channel Expressway: large diameter road tunnels with mid-channel ventilation towers. The cross-Channel ferry industry protested under the name "Flexilink". In 1975 there was no campaign protesting a fixed link, with one of the largest ferry operators (Sealink) being state-owned. Flexilink continued rousing opposition throughout 1986 and 1987. Public opinion strongly favoured a drive-through tunnel, but ventilation issues, concerns about accident management, and fear of driver mesmerisation led to the only shortlisted rail submission, CTG/F-M, being awarded the project. The British Channel Tunnel Group consisted of two banks and five construction companies, while their French counterparts, France–Manche, consisted of three banks and five construction companies. The role of the banks was to advise on financing and secure loan commitments. On 2 July 1985, the groups formed Channel Tunnel Group/France–Manche (CTG/F–M). Their submission to the British and French governments was drawn from the 1975 project, including 11 volumes and a substantial environmental impact statement.
The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 20:22 GMT >>>>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when >>>>> five [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there > might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable. I recall they calculated costs/savings based on the price of a ferry ride, and then the ferries promptly cut their prices. A half hour drive is not excessive. One can concern oneself into idiocy.
Leslie Danks - 13 Feb 2010 20:41 GMT [...]
>> The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there >> might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable. > > I recall they calculated costs/savings based on the price of a ferry > ride, and then the ferries promptly cut their prices. > A half hour drive is not excessive. According to
<http://lotsberg.net/data/tun10.html>
this would be just over twice as long as the longest existing road tunnel - the Laerdal Tunnel in Norway:
<http://lotsberg.net/data/norway/laerdal/tunnel.html>
The phenomenon "driver mesmerisation" seems to have been invented specifically for the Channel Tunnel (if Google is to be trusted).
> One can concern oneself into idiocy.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Mark Brader - 16 Feb 2010 19:18 GMT Peter Duncanson:
>>> The [Channel] tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The >>> concern that there might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable. Leslie Danks:
> this would be just over twice as long as the longest existing road tunnel - > the Laerdal Tunnel in Norway: That was not an existing road tunnel at the time.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net "I am good at fooling myself into believing that what I wrote is what I meant. I am also good at fooling myself into believing that what I meant is what I should have meant." --Kent Beck
Mark Brader - 13 Feb 2010 18:28 GMT Peter Duncanson:
> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five > Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In the report it refers to the transfer of passengers from a failed > train to a rescue train. Interesting. I certainly haven't seen a specialized word like that used in English. Maybe someone assumed (based on the French) that such a word must exist and accidentally created one, like the way we got "robotics".
Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural formation would be "transtrainment". On the other hand, that wouldn't cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other types of vehicle, like buses. On the whole I say stick with "transfer".
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R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 20:15 GMT Mark Brader filted:
>Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural >formation would be "transtrainment". On the other hand, that wouldn't >cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other >types of vehicle, like buses. On the whole I say stick with "transfer". Implicitly "trans-chemin-de-fer"?...r
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Mark Brader - 14 Feb 2010 03:40 GMT Mark Brader:
>> Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural >> formation would be "transtrainment". On the other hand, that wouldn't >> cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other >> types of vehicle, like buses. On the whole I say stick with "transfer". R.H. Draney:
> Implicitly "trans-chemin-de-fer"? That depends on whether they went out the frontarat door, or the other one.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Feb 2010 12:53 GMT >Peter Duncanson: >> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other >types of vehicle, like buses. On the whole I say stick with "transfer". embarkation, disembarkation, re-embarkation.
How about "transbarkation"?
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
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