Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Transbordement

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 12:32 GMT
The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
uses the word "transbordment" in the English version of the report.

This appears to be a direct translation of the French "transbordement".
My ancient French-English dictionary gives "transshipment" as the
English translation.

In the report it refers to the transfer of passengers from a failed
train to a rescue train.

A Google search finds only 34 examples of "transbordment". Many of them
are references to "Sociéte Cherbourgeoise Transbordment", others appear
to be French alternative spellings of "transbordement" and the rest
appear to be French-influenced (Canada and Switzerland).

Judging by the content of the results the "Sociéte Cherbourgeoise
Transbordment" was in the business of using tenders to transfer
passengers between the dockside and ocean liners.

Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Pablo - 13 Feb 2010 14:08 GMT
> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?

I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?

Signature

Pablo

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 15:52 GMT
>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>
>I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?

I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of passengers
between trains.

http://www.eurostarindependentreview.org/

English wording:

   The evacuation plan  
   
   With one train having been towed from the Tunnel towards Folkestone,
four trains now needed to be recovered. The evacuation plan was as
   follows:
   
   1)  The Krupps Rescue Locomotive from Calais would ‘push’ the 9055
   and 9059 through the north tunnel to the UK emergency sidings
   2)  Passengers from train 9053 would be evacuated onto Eurotunnel
   vehicle shuttle 6668 and proceed to the UK through the south tunnel
   3)  Passengers from train 9057 would be evacuated onto Eurotunnel
   vehicle shuttle 6667 and return to Coquelles (back through the south
tunnel)  
   
   <diagram>
   
   Following completion of these transbordments, passengers were
   transported from the Tunnel.

French wording:

   Le plan d’évacuation  
   
   Un train ayant été remorqué du tunnel vers Folkestone, il restait
   alors quatre trains à secourir. Le plan d’évacuation suivant a été
   adopté :
   
   1)  La locomotive de secours Krupp venant de Calais devait
   « pousser » les trains 9055 et 9059 dans le tunnel Nord vers les
   voies d’évitement en cas d’urgence au Royaume-Uni  
   2)  Les passagers du train 9053 seraient évacués sur la navette
   Eurotunnel 6668 et continueraient jusqu’au Royaume-Uni par le tunnel
Sud  
   3)  Les passagers du train 9057 seraient évacués sur la navette
   Eurotunnel 6667 et retourneraient à Calais (par le tunnel Sud)  
   
   <diagram>
         
   À la suite de ces transbordements, les passagers ont été acheminés à
l’extérieur du tunnel.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Jeffrey Turner - 13 Feb 2010 17:17 GMT
>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>>>
>> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?
>
> I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of passengers
> between trains.

Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train to
the other.  I wouldn't use the word transshipment, that's for cargo.
I'm not sure there's one word in English that fits the whole idea.
"Transbordment" isn't English.  It doesn't even look English.  At the
very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'.

--Jeff

Signature

Love consists of overestimating
the differences between one woman
and another.  --George Bernard Shaw

James Silverton - 13 Feb 2010 18:15 GMT
Jeffrey  wrote  on Sat, 13 Feb 2010 12:17:34 -0500:

>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>>>>
>>> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?
>>
>> I don't think so. It seems to refer to the movement of
>> passengers between trains.

> Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train
> to the other.  I wouldn't use the word transshipment, that's
> for cargo. I'm not sure there's one word in English that fits the
> whole idea. "Transbordment" isn't English.  It doesn't
> even look English.  At the very least, there needs to be an
> 'a' after the 'o'.

Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard" meaning
"To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to tranship" (OED)

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 20:13 GMT
James Silverton filted:

>Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard" meaning
>"To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to tranship" (OED)

"Tranship" is itself odd...my spellchecker doesn't like it (but accepts
"transship"), and how would you hyphenate it at the end of a line?...

Is this another manifestation of collapsed double letters, as I've seen in
"withold" and "hitchike"?...r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

James Silverton - 13 Feb 2010 20:19 GMT
R  wrote  on 13 Feb 2010 12:13:36 -0800:

> James Silverton filted:
>>
>> Not only that but there is a rarely used verb to "transboard"
>> meaning "To transfer from one ship or vessel into another; to
>> tranship" (OED)

> "Tranship" is itself odd...my spellchecker doesn't like it
> (but accepts "transship"), and how would you hyphenate it at
> the end of a line?...

> Is this another manifestation of collapsed double letters, as
> I've seen in "withold" and "hitchike"?...r

Actually, I noticed the single "s" where I would have used two but I was
copying exactly from the OED. I have not bothered to look up "tranship".

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 23:23 GMT
James Silverton filted:

> R  wrote  on 13 Feb 2010 12:13:36 -0800:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Actually, I noticed the single "s" where I would have used two but I was
>copying exactly from the OED. I have not bothered to look up "tranship".

Google counts are almost dead even: 98,200 for the single-S version; 94,600 for
the double....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 18:27 GMT
>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"Transbordment" isn't English.  It doesn't even look English.  At the
>very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'.

Using the word "shuttle" in this context risks serious ambiguity. The
trains that carry road vehicles through the tunnel are known as
shuttles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurotunnel_Shuttle

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Mark Brader - 13 Feb 2010 18:31 GMT
Peter Duncanson:
>>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?

"Pablo":
>>>> I think the English version would be "shuttle", wouldn't it?

Jeff Turner:
>> Yes, the passengers shuttled (or were shuttled) from one train to
>> the other.

No they weren't; they walked.  To be "shuttled" would imply that
they were carried on yet another vehicle.

Peter Duncanson:
> Using the word "shuttle" in this context risks serious ambiguity. The
> trains that carry road vehicles through the tunnel are known as
> shuttles.

That too.
Signature

Mark Brader     |     "I couldn't imagine what Americans did at night
Toronto         |      when they weren't writing novels."
msb@vex.net     |                                     --Joseph Heller

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Robert Bannister - 13 Feb 2010 23:37 GMT
>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "Transbordment" isn't English.  It doesn't even look English.  At the
> very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'.

"Shuttle" sounds quite wrong to me - I always expect the possibility of
a return when shuttles are involved. Plain old "transfer" will do if you
don't like "transship" - OMG, it's one of those words like "skilful":
only one S.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Steve Hayes - 14 Feb 2010 05:08 GMT
>>>> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"Transbordment" isn't English.  It doesn't even look English.  At the
>very least, there needs to be an 'a' after the 'o'.

Wouldn't the English word be "transfer"?

That is often used for changing trains, or buses, for from one mode of
transport to another, or even from an airport to a hotel.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

tsuidf - 14 Feb 2010 17:38 GMT
On Feb 13, 4:52 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >> Has anyone met the word "transbordment" in English?
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>     À la suite de ces transbordements, les passagers ont été acheminés à
> l’extérieur du tunnel.

Never mind the transbordements, I'm baffled by the inverted commas
around 'push' and 'pousser'.  Was it not really pushing them,
or...????

cheers,
Stephanie

who is very glad that she, YM, and Son of YM were not involved in any
of the above, although statistically we might well have been
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Feb 2010 20:03 GMT
>On Feb 13, 4:52 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>around 'push' and 'pousser'.  Was it not really pushing them,
>or...????

Obvious hypothesis: the inverted commas are used to indicate that 'push'
and 'pousser' are descriptive rather than technical terms.

On reading the reports this hypothesis crumples.

   Eurotunnel took the decision to recover both 9059 and 9055 using the
   Krupp recovery locomotive from the French side. The plan was to
   attach the Krupps to 9059, moving forward to attach to 9055, and
   to propel the two trains out of the Tunnel towards the Folkestone
   terminal. This was the first time this manoeuvre had been undertaken
   and the CCC is to be congratulated on taking this decision.

   Eurotunnel a pris la décision de secourir  à la fois le 9059 et le
   9055 en utilisant les locomotives de récupération Krupps stationnées
   du côté français. Le plan était d'atteler les Krupps au 9059, pour
   mettre en contact 9059 et 9055, et de pousser les deux trains hors
   du tunnel en direction du terminal de Folkestone. C’est la première
   fois qu’une telle manœuvre était tentée. Il faut féliciter le CCC
   d’avoir pris une telle décision.

Might the section of the report outlining the evacuation plan have been
written first in English and then translated into French? The use of the
scare-quoted word "'push'" rather than "propel" as used in the detailed
descriptions later might have some slight justification. But the use of
scare-quoted "« pousser »" rather than the straightfoward "pousser" as
used in the detailed descriptions seems odd.

>Stephanie

>who is very glad that she, YM, and Son of YM were not involved in any
>of the above, although statistically we might well have been

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Mark Brader - 16 Feb 2010 19:15 GMT
Peter Duncanson quoted:
>>>  1)  The Krupps Rescue Locomotive from Calais would 'push' the 9055
>>>  and 9059 through the north tunnel to the UK emergency sidings

>>>  1)  La locomotive de secours Krupp venant de Calais devait
>>>  « pousser » les trains 9055 et 9059 dans le tunnel Nord vers les
>>>  voies d'évitement en cas d'urgence au Royaume-Uni  

Stephanie Mitchell commented:
>> Never mind the transbordements, I'm baffled by the inverted commas
>> around 'push' and 'pousser'.  Was it not really pushing them,
>> or...????

Peter Duncanson wrote:
> Obvious hypothesis: the inverted commas are used to indicate that 'push'
> and 'pousser' are descriptive rather than technical terms.

Perhaps the writer had it in mind that "pushing" was something a person
does rather than a machine.  This is nonsense, of course.

> On reading the reports this hypothesis crumples.
>
>     .... The plan was to attach the Krupps to 9059, moving forward
>     to attach to 9055, and to propel the two trains out of the Tunnel ...

In some British railway writing, when talking about how a locomotive
moves a train, instead of "push" and "pull" they use "propel" and
"haul" respectively.  This silly jargon is what we're seeing here.
(Silly because "propel" does not, in any other context, imply pushing
rather than pulling.)

>     ... Le plan était d'atteler les Krupps au 9059, pour
>     mettre en contact 9059 et 9055, et de pousser les deux trains hors
>     du tunnel ...

> Might the section of the report outlining the evacuation plan have been
> written first in English and then translated into French? The use of the
> scare-quoted word "'push'" rather than "propel" as used in the detailed
> descriptions later might have some slight justification.

Only if you think "propel" is the only proper word.  I'm guessing that
the writer *did* think that, but for some reason didn't use it, leaving
a pair of unaccountable quotation marks, which were then retained in
the French.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net
    "I am good at fooling myself into believing that what I wrote
     is what I meant.  I am also good at fooling myself into believing
     that what I meant is what I should have meant."     --Kent Beck

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 16:49 GMT
> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
> uses the word "transbordment" in the English version of the report.

A roadway would have been more practical.
I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French
ideas.
R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 17:51 GMT
Ray O'Hara filted:

>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French
>ideas.

If they didn't learn that from the Maginot Line, there's no hope for 'em....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 18:02 GMT
>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I hope you British types have learned a lesson, never listen to French
>ideas.

I understand that a road tunnel would have been much more expensive. I
have a distant recollection of this being talked about before
construction began.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 19:23 GMT
>>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
>>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> have a distant recollection of this being talked about before
> construction began.

Initial cost needs to be compared to later saving.
The Romans built expensive roads that crossed all obstacles. The straight
course saved time and time is money.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Feb 2010 20:10 GMT
>>>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
>>>> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>The Romans built expensive roads that crossed all obstacles. The straight
>course saved time and time is money.

There was no reasonable alternative to the Roman roads. If you needed to
travel somewhere you used the roads provided. The Channel Tunnel was,
and is, competing with existing successful cross-channel ferry services.

I seem to remember that a crucial aspect of the tunnel was that it would
be a commercial operation not a public service.

Yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel

   In 1979, the "Mouse-hole Project" was suggested when the
   Conservatives came to power in Britain. The concept was a
   single-track rail tunnel with a service tunnel, but without shuttle
   terminals. The British government took no interest in funding the
   project, but Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher said she had no
   objection to a privately funded project. In 1981 British and French
   leaders Margaret Thatcher and François Mitterrand agreed to set up a
   working group to look into a privately funded project, and in April
   1985 promoters were formally invited to submit scheme proposals.
   Four submissions were shortlisted:
   
   * a rail proposal based on the 1975 scheme presented by Channel
     Tunnel Group/France–Manche (CTG/F–M),
   * Eurobridge: a 4.5 km span suspension bridge with a roadway in an
     enclosed tube
   * Euroroute: a 21 km tunnel between artificial islands approached by
     bridges, and
   * Channel Expressway: large diameter road tunnels with mid-channel
     ventilation towers.
   
   The cross-Channel ferry industry protested under the name
   "Flexilink". In 1975 there was no campaign protesting a fixed link,
   with one of the largest ferry operators (Sealink) being state-owned.
   Flexilink continued rousing opposition throughout 1986 and 1987.
   Public opinion strongly favoured a drive-through tunnel, but
   ventilation issues, concerns about accident management, and fear of
   driver mesmerisation led to the only shortlisted rail submission,
   CTG/F-M, being awarded the project.
   
   The British Channel Tunnel Group consisted of two banks and five
   construction companies, while their French counterparts,
   France–Manche, consisted of three banks and five construction
   companies. The role of the banks was to advise on financing and
   secure loan commitments. On 2 July 1985, the groups formed Channel
   Tunnel Group/France–Manche (CTG/F–M). Their submission to the
   British and French governments was drawn from the 1975 project,
   including 11 volumes and a substantial environmental impact
   statement.

The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there
might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable.


Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Ray O'Hara - 13 Feb 2010 20:22 GMT
>>>>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when
>>>>> five
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there
> might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable.

I recall they calculated costs/savings based on the price of a  ferry ride,
and then the ferries promptly cut their prices.
A half hour drive is not excessive.
One can concern oneself into idiocy.
Leslie Danks - 13 Feb 2010 20:41 GMT
[...]

>> The tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length. The concern that there
>> might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable.
>
> I recall they calculated costs/savings based on the price of a  ferry
> ride, and then the ferries promptly cut their prices.
> A half hour drive is not excessive.

According to

<http://lotsberg.net/data/tun10.html>

this would be just over twice as long as the longest existing road tunnel -
the Laerdal Tunnel in Norway:

<http://lotsberg.net/data/norway/laerdal/tunnel.html>

The phenomenon "driver mesmerisation" seems to have been invented
specifically for the Channel Tunnel (if Google is to be trusted).

> One can concern oneself into idiocy.

Signature

Les (BrE)

Mark Brader - 16 Feb 2010 19:18 GMT
Peter Duncanson:
>>> The [Channel] tunnel is 50.5-kilometre (31.4 mi) in length.  The
>>> concern that there might be "driver mesmerisation" is understandable.

Leslie Danks:
> this would be just over twice as long as the longest existing road tunnel -
> the Laerdal Tunnel in Norway:

That was not an existing road tunnel at the time.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net
    "I am good at fooling myself into believing that what I wrote
     is what I meant.  I am also good at fooling myself into believing
     that what I meant is what I should have meant."     --Kent Beck

Mark Brader - 13 Feb 2010 18:28 GMT
Peter Duncanson:
> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
> Eurostar trains failed in the Channel Tunnel between France and England
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> In the report it refers to the transfer of passengers from a failed
> train to a rescue train.

Interesting.  I certainly haven't seen a specialized word like that used
in English.  Maybe someone assumed (based on the French) that such a word
must exist and accidentally created one, like the way we got "robotics".

Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural
formation would be "transtrainment".  On the other hand, that wouldn't
cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other
types of vehicle, like buses.  On the whole I say stick with "transfer".
Signature

Mark Brader                     What is it about
Toronto                         Haiku that people find so
msb@vex.net                     Infatuating?           --Pete Mitchell

My text in this article is in the public domain.

R H Draney - 13 Feb 2010 20:15 GMT
Mark Brader filted:

>Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural
>formation would be "transtrainment".  On the other hand, that wouldn't
>cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other
>types of vehicle, like buses.  On the whole I say stick with "transfer".

Implicitly "trans-chemin-de-fer"?...r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Mark Brader - 14 Feb 2010 03:40 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> Given the existence of "detrain" and "entrain", I think a more natural
>> formation would be "transtrainment".  On the other hand, that wouldn't
>> cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other
>> types of vehicle, like buses.  On the whole I say stick with "transfer".

R.H. Draney:
> Implicitly "trans-chemin-de-fer"?

That depends on whether they went out the frontarat door, or the other one.
Signature

Mark Brader   |  "Nitwit ideas are for emergencies.  The rest of the
Toronto       |   time you go by the Book, which is mostly a collection
msb@vex.net   |   of nitwit ideas that worked.   -- Niven & Pournelle

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Feb 2010 12:53 GMT
>Peter Duncanson:
>> The Eurostar Independent Review of the events in December 2009 when five
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>cover the case where some or all passengers were transferred onto other
>types of vehicle, like buses.  On the whole I say stick with "transfer".

embarkation, disembarkation, re-embarkation.

How about "transbarkation"?

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.