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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010"Asian", Far-east Asian, & "Asian" in the widest sense
I note that in the San Francisco Bay Area of California, USA, the word "asian" is often used to refer to someone who comes from a far-eastern region that traces its history back to China/Mongolia, etc. So, a Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Mongolian, or Burmese person (among other far eastern ethnicities) would be regarded as "asian" under this usage. When used in this way (often indicated by context), "asian" would not be used to refer to someone from India, Russia, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon (for example) -- or at least not without qualification. (List of the 47 Asian countries and territories here): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asian_countries To an extent, it seems that the distinguishing feature of "asian" people in this restrictive sense of the word is the shape of a person's eyes -- the presence of the "Epicanthic fold" which gives the eyes the characteristic "lotus" or "almond" shape: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_eyes So, if I may ask your opinion: is it reasonable to use "asian" in the restrictive way described above? Or should "asian" be used in the broadest sense to refer to anyone from Asia? And should we have any distinct word for persons who come from regions that are characterized by people whose eyes have the "Epicanthic fold"? (I mean, is there anything apart from this distinctive trait that unites the peoples who have this characteristic?) Perhaps there is really no need for such a word. In any case, your thoughts on this subject are most welcome, and thank you in advance for them. -- Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA) http://www.100bestwebsites.org/ "The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!" Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites Just a quick addendum: It does seem that one characteristic that is distinctive among far- east asian peoples other than the "epicanthic" eye shape is a historical-cultural preponderance of certain far eastern spiritual traditions, specifically: Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto (the latter only in Japan, as far as I know). While Buddhism originated in India/Nepal -- and while the Buddha is sometimes referred to as "lotus- eyed" (probably not a reference to "epicanthic" eyes) -- Buddhism never became the preponderant religion of India (except perhaps for a short period under the Emperor Ashoka). As for Confucianism, Taoism, and Shinto, I believe they originated in and remained preponderant only in certain regions of the far east (even though they are fascinating and rewarding philosophies to study). This notwithstanding Gary Snyder's remark to Catholic- Buddhist Jack Kerouac that "Everybody in San Francisco is a Buddhist" (said partly -- but only partly -- whimsically. Buddhist thought has exerted a powerful (and beneficial) influence of the cultures of northern California (in my opinion), but its influence in the United States at large (outside the academy) has been limited. (Seems appropriate to insert a quote from the Buddhist scripture the Dhammapada here): “For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love. This is an old rule.” - The Dhammapada, I:5** (circa 500 BCE) (This was an “old rule” 2,500 years ago, and it is even older today. Perhaps one day Humankind will embrace it. (May it be so.) ) ** translated by F. Max Muller ( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dhammapada ) > Just a quick addendum: [...] > (Seems appropriate to insert a quote from the Buddhist scripture the > Dhammapada here): > > “For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by > love. This is an old rule.” - The Dhammapada, I:5** (circa 500 BCE) Old ain't always make it right. What about ending hate in benevolent indifference or total emotional detachment? > (This was an “old rule” 2,500 years ago, and it is even older today. > Perhaps one day Humankind will embrace it. (May it be so.) ) Why go only to extremes? Arcadian Rises filted: >> Just a quick addendum: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Old ain't always make it right. What about ending hate in benevolent >indifference or total emotional detachment? Sometimes hatred ceases by the hated thing itself ceasing to exist...does anybody these days still hate the Etruscans?...r  SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Arcadian Rises filted: >>> Just a quick addendum: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Sometimes hatred ceases by the hated thing itself ceasing to exist...does > anybody these days still hate the Etruscans?...r They wouldn't have bothered us at all if it hadn't been for that damned Horatio. Still, we've just had a good war against the Assyrians and the war against the Parthians (or is it Scythians?) looks like continuing for some time. Maintain your rage. SignatureRob Bannister > Arcadian Rises filted: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Sometimes hatred ceases by the hated thing itself ceasing to exist...does > anybody these days still hate the Etruscans?...r Not me, but then again, I've never did. > I note that in the San Francisco Bay Area of California, USA, the word > "asian" is often used to refer to someone who comes from a far-eastern [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > In any case, your thoughts on this subject are most welcome, and thank > you in advance for them. In BrE it seems to be current usage that "Asian" includes Indian and Pakistani. Indeed, it's almost a polite way of referring to those from the Indian subcontinent. "Far Eastern" would specifically denote those with the epicanthic eye fold. "Middle Eastern" covers Iranian, Afghan, Syrian, Arab, Lebanese, Turkish, and sometimes even Egyptian. It would actually be quite unusual to hear such people referred to as "Asian", despite it being geographically correct. It's a little strange that "Middle Easterner" sounds natural, but "Far Easterner" doesn't. "They're from the Far East" is much easier to say and understand. -- > And should we have any distinct word for persons who come from regions > that are characterized by people whose eyes have the "Epicanthic > fold"? (I mean, is there anything apart from this distinctive trait > that unites the peoples who have this characteristic?) Perhaps there > is really no need for such a word. My Korean roommate has voiced his unhappiness with the fact that some people now find "Oriental" objectionable when applied to people. On Feb 14, 1:18�pm, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > And should we have any distinct word for persons who come from regions > > that are characterized by people whose eyes have the "Epicanthic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My Korean roommate has voiced his unhappiness with the fact that some > people now find "Oriental" objectionable when applied to people. I totally agree with your Korean roommate, but our concurrent opinions mean nothing to the angels of PC, who often practice their religion of political correctness on the expense of geographical, historical, or even logical, accuracy. >On Feb 14, 1:18?pm, "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" <sjdevn...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >political correctness on the expense of geographical, historical, or >even logical, accuracy. In this country the "angels of PC" changed "Asiatic" to "Asian" around the 1970s, about the same time that "Bantu" became "Black". But both "Asiatic" and "Asian" applied to people of Indian origin. "Oriental" usually suggested Near/Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern, but not so much Indian. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > "Oriental" usually suggested Near/Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern, but not so > much Indian. This is a pondial difference. In the US, "Oriental" wouldn't be used to refer to the Middle East. It's almost invariably used (here) to mean Far Eastern, IME. >> "Oriental" usually suggested Near/Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern, but not so >> much Indian. > >This is a pondial difference. In the US, "Oriental" wouldn't be used >to refer to the Middle East. It's almost invariably used (here) to >mean Far Eastern, IME. Interesting. I believe the late Edward Said was a resident of the US. I wonder what people would have made of his book "Orientalism" then. For example, from the Wikipedia article: More recently, the term is also used in the meaning of "stereotyping of Islam", both by advocates and academics in refugee rights advocacy. A particular aspect of this stereotyping, described as "neo-Orientalism", occurs in the context of forced migration, particularly affecting women, and its alleged damage to refugee rights both in and outside the Arab and Muslim world SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> "Oriental" usually suggested Near/Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern, but not so >> much Indian. > >This is a pondial difference. In the US, "Oriental" wouldn't be used >to refer to the Middle East. It's almost invariably used (here) to >mean Far Eastern, IME. I've seen quite a few rug stores that deal in oriental rugs, which actually come from the middle or near East. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:57:04 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I've seen quite a few rug stores that deal in oriental rugs, > which actually come from the middle or near East. So does the Oriental Salad, I beileve. And the recently defunct Orient Express ran no farther East than Istanbul Arcadian Rises filted: >> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:57:04 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >And the recently defunct Orient Express ran no farther East than >Istanbul One recalls that the hat of the Parsee who lived on the Red Sea reflected the rays of the sun in *more*-than-oriental splendour....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:15:19 -0800 (PST), Arcadian Rises > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > "Oriental" usually suggested Near/Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern, but not so > much Indian. For a diversity of perceptions and connotations of "Oriental" and "Asian" see wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental "Brett": >> And should we have any distinct word for persons who come from regions >> that are characterized by people whose eyes have the "Epicanthic >> fold"? (I mean, is there anything apart from this distinctive trait >> that unites the peoples who have this characteristic?) Perhaps there >> is really no need for such a word. The word is, of course, Oriental. And if nothing else, it's useful as a form of physically describing someone whose appearance you know, but whose ethnicity you aren't sure of. S.J.: > My Korean roommate has voiced his unhappiness with the fact that some > people now find "Oriental" objectionable when applied to people. Yes. It is not an insult when I say it and I resent being told that it is. SignatureMark Brader "It's okay to have our own language if we feel Toronto we need it, but why does it have to be used msb@vex.net as a nose to look down?" -- Becky Slocombe My text in this article is in the public domain. >"Brett": >>> And should we have any distinct word for persons who come from regions [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Yes. It is not an insult when I say it and I resent being told that it is. The objectiosn come from those who feel a word meaning "eastern" might be derogatory because it raises the question, "East of what?" Of course, "asia" has a similar root.... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Mark Brader: >> Yes. ["Oriental"] is not an insult when I say it and I resent being >> told that it is. Dave Hatunen: > The objectiosn come from those who feel a word meaning "eastern" > might be derogatory because it raises the question, "East of > what?" East of the centroid of the world's inhabitable land. Or of the centroid of the world's population. Or of the part of the world where the language we're using originated. Any of those. SignatureMark Brader | Well, unfortunately, that is impossible, or very difficult, or Toronto | highly inadvisable, or would require legislation--one of those. msb@vex.net | -- Sir Humphrey ("Yes Minister", Lynn & Jay) My text in this article is in the public domain. > Mark Brader: >>> Yes. ["Oriental"] is not an insult when I say it and I resent [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> might be derogatory because it raises the question, "East of >> what?" Nah. The Orient is the first major landmass you hit when you start in the US and travel west. > East of the centroid of the world's inhabitable land. Or of the > centroid of the world's population. I'll bite. How do you decide where to put a centroid on the surface of a sphere? > Or of the part of the world where the language we're using > originated. Or, more likely, of the part of the world where the language we borrowed the word from (or the language that language borrowed the word from or ...) originated. The OED thinks the word already had that sense in Middle French when English borrowed it. > Any of those. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham | chaste in Martaban. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Mark Brader: >>>> Yes. ["Oriental"] is not an insult when I say it and I resent [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'll bite. How do you decide where to put a centroid on the surface >of a sphere? I can be done mathematically, although the true centroid in three dimensions would lie in teh interior of the earth, and the point Mark is referring to might be more accurately called the "epicentroid". I think most of our concepts of the "East" and the "West" derive from ancient Greek usage since Greece was the center of the world. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Mark Brader: >>> East of the centroid of the world's inhabitable land. Or of the >>> centroid of the world's population. Evan Kirshenbaum: >> I'll bite. How do you decide where to put a centroid on the surface >> of a sphere? Compute it in three dimensions and project upward to the surface. Dave Hatunen (copyedited): > It can be done mathematically, although the true centroid in three > dimensions would lie in the interior of the earth... There is that. > and the point Mark is referring to might be more accurately called the > "epicentroid". By analogy with "epicenter" for earthquakes. Sensible formation, but not known at mathworld.wolfram.com. I think it's reasonably mathematician-like to generalize "centroid" to this meaning. > I think most of our concepts of the "East" and the "West" derive > from ancient Greek usage since Greece was the center of the world. They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that Europe is a continent, aren't they? SignatureMark Brader "After all, it is necessary to get behind Toronto someone before you can stab them in the back." msb@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay, "Yes, Prime Minister" My text in this article is in the public domain. > Mark Brader: > >>> East of the centroid of the world's inhabitable land. Or of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Compute it in three dimensions and project upward to the surface. My guess is that it would be about 2,500 miles below Iran. SignatureJohn Varela Mark Brader filted: >Dave Hatunen (copyedited): > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that >Europe is a continent, aren't they? "Fog in Bosporus, continent isolated!" ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that > Europe is a continent, aren't they? So, are you saying that Africa is not a continent? And what about North and South America - all one or not? Looking at the extent of continental shelves, I suppose you could include Australia and Indonesia in with Asia too. SignatureRob Bannister Mark Brader: >> They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that >> Europe is a continent, aren't they? Rob Bannister: > So, are you saying that Africa is not a continent? And what about North > and South America - all one or not? ... I said "They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that Europe is a continent, aren't they?" I don't see Africa or North and South America mentioned in that sentence. SignatureMark Brader | In the face of such devastating logic as "despite Toronto | what you say you mean, you must mean this and you msb@vex.net | are wrong", I cede the territory. --Truly Donovan > Mark Brader: >>> They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Europe is a continent, aren't they?" I don't see Africa or North and > South America mentioned in that sentence. You do appear to be saying that "they" foisted an incorrect idea upon us, so I had to wonder why you thought it incorrect. My best guess was that Europe is actually joined onto Asia, and that you considered this to make it ineligible and so I had to query other continents that are joined onto Asia. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> Mark Brader: >>>> They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >to make it ineligible and so I had to query other continents that are >joined onto Asia. So if we're all of one mind about the continentality of Europe, I say let's move on to the next question.... Resolved: that the Arctic so-called Ocean is really just a large arm of the North Atlantic....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R.H. Draney: > So if we're all of one mind about the continentality of Europe, I say > let's move on to the next question.... > > Resolved: that the Arctic so-called Ocean is really just a large arm of the > North Atlantic. Well, sure. Also the so-called Pacific Ocean... SignatureMark Brader | "And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages, Toronto | hundreds of points of view. It was not called the msb@vex.net | Net of a Million Lies for nothing." --Vernor Vinge Mark Brader filted: >R.H. Draney: >> So if we're all of one mind about the continentality of Europe, I say [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Well, sure. Also the so-called Pacific Ocean... Hey, at least nobody disputes that it's an *ocean*!...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > R.H. Draney: > > So if we're all of one mind about the continentality of Europe, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well, sure. Also the so-called Pacific Ocean... Why did you call it pacific when it's not really that calm? Brian (sorry) SignatureDay 381 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> R.H. Draney: >> > So if we're all of one mind about the continentality of Europe, I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Why did you call it pacific when it's not really that calm? Wasn't this discussed here in the not-too-distant past? >Brian (sorry) You should be. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >> Well, sure. Also the so-called Pacific Ocean... > > > > Why did you call it pacific when it's not really that calm? > > Wasn't this discussed here in the not-too-distant past? Has it? I thought it would be pretty rare. > > Brian (sorry) > > You should be. Brian (consider me chastened and apologetic) SignatureDay 381 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > Robert Bannister filted: >>> Mark Brader: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Resolved: that the Arctic so-called Ocean is really just a large arm of the > North Atlantic....r It could be a partially submerged part of Russia, Norway, Greenland, Canada or Alaska. If so, ructions may be expected. SignatureRob Bannister >Mark Brader: >>>> East of the centroid of the world's inhabitable land. Or of the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >They are the ones responsible for sticking us with the idea that >Europe is a continent, aren't they? Was Asia east or west of Anatolia, or was it part of it? Which reminds me that "Africa" was roughly where Tunisia is today, before it became a continent. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Mark Brader: >>> Yes. ["Oriental"] is not an insult when I say it and I resent being [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >centroid of the world's population. Or of the part of the world >where the language we're using originated. Any of those That doesn't work very well for those who put the likes of Turkey in the Orient. That usage seems to have faded over the centuries though, having originated with the ancient Greeks for whom modern day Turkey was The East. Where would the centroid of Eurais be? I can't find a good map of Eurasia on line (admittedly, I haven't tried that hard) but it appears the centroid would lie in China just north of Tibet. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I note that in the San Francisco Bay Area of California, USA, the word > "asian" is often used to refer to someone who comes from a far-eastern [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > In any case, your thoughts on this subject are most welcome, and thank > you in advance for them. I think we've done this a bit before. To my mind: It's simply a result of with what part of Asia the Asians (note capital letter!) the English-speakers in a given region historically had first extensive contact with and/or from where on the continent of Asia people who now live in the English-speaking region trace their origins to. Thus in the USA generally (not just on the West Coast), "Asian" by default refers to East Asians if not further specified or somehow indicated by context. It the UK it defaults to people of South-Asian (Subcontinental: Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi) origin. It's not perhaps entirely logical, not perhaps entirely free of charges of either unthinking racism on the one hand or political correctness on the other -- but it's what we've got in the language at the moment. One can always be more specific and avoid using the unqualified "Asian". As for a general term for pan-Asian peoples, I don't see much need for an ethnic term that includes Lebanese, Israelis, Persians, Bengalis, Koreans, Edo, Mongolians, and Singaporeans all under one label. Asia, as you say, is a big place. Even "East Asian" and "South Asian" each embrace a large a number of people, languages, and cultures -- at least as many (and then some) as "European" does. And of course the line between Europe and Asia was drawn for historical reasons -- by Europeans -- in a mighty peculiar place (e.g. running right through the middle of one of the culturally most important cities in the hemisphere), and on top of that we certainly don't use "Eurasian" to refer to all the peoples of Asia plus it's attached western penninsula, which is also quite illogical. Cue the perpetual "Is 'America' a misnomer?" thread... SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > So, if I may ask your opinion: is it reasonable to use "asian" in the > restrictive way described above? Yes. > Or should "asian" be used in the > broadest sense to refer to anyone from Asia? Yes. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au |
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