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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010It attributive-nouns when it comes attributive-noun time
A mailing-list discussion about "Steller's jay" (the official name) versus "Steller Jay" has coincided with our thread about noun modifiers, just after some comments about "Down's syndrome" versus "Down syndrome". Does anyone know when birds, or organisms in general, started to get their "first names" from people's names? Was the practice in English an imitation of the practice in Latin? Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, Pike's Peak [officially Pikes Peak]), "of" forms (islets of Langerhans), and derived adjectives (Bodleian Library, Blackburnian warbler)? -- Jerry Friedman > A mailing-list discussion about "Steller's jay" (the official name) > versus "Steller Jay" has coincided with our thread about noun [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > their "first names" from people's names? Was the practice in English > an imitation of the practice in Latin? One well-known indicator is birds' names such as jackdaw and robin, documented in English since the 15th century, perhaps earlier. (The first bird was originally called a daw and some folk tales emerged about Mr. and Mrs. Daw, named Jack and Margery: the former persisted to rename the bird. Similarly Robin Redbreast in folk tales became the common noun robin.) > Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms > (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, > Pike's Peak [officially Pikes Peak]), "of" forms (islets of > Langerhans), and derived adjectives (Bodleian Library, Blackburnian > warbler)? The only set of rules widely observed by English speakers was Linnaeus' 18th century guidelines for binominal naming of plants and animals: but these were designed for Latin, not for any vernacular, and were not directed to other fields of scientific naming, e.g. astronomy and geology. I see no general pattern or rule. The record includes both eponymy designed to uphold a commercial monopoly, e.g. gadolinium, and eponymy of the classic type, e.g. Newton's Laws, Maxwell's equations.  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >The only set of rules widely observed by English speakers was >Linnaeus' 18th century guidelines for binominal naming of plants >and animals: but these were designed for Latin, not for any vernacular, >and were not directed to other fields of scientific naming, e.g. >astronomy and geology. Actually, Linnaeus tried to introduce a binomial nomenclature for minerals as well, but geologists paid him scant attention. (Which was almost certainly the right choice, although they did not know it then, since minerals do not reproduce.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >>The only set of rules widely observed by English speakers was Linnaeus' >>18th century guidelines for binominal naming of plants and animals: but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > almost certainly the right choice, although they did not know it then, > since minerals do not reproduce.) All I know is that we got stuck with names like "Steller's Jay", "Blue Jay", "American Robin", and "Herbacious Woozle" because the Brits had already beaten us to the simple "Jay", "Robin", "Woozle" etc. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>> The only set of rules widely observed by English speakers was >>> Linnaeus' 18th century guidelines for binominal naming of plants [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Jay", "American Robin", and "Herbacious Woozle" because the Brits had > already beaten us to the simple "Jay", "Robin", "Woozle" etc. "Robin" is one of the early first-name ones, though. Its "real" name is "redbreast", with "Robin" tacked on like the daw's "Jack". Other red-bit British listers are, or include, "redstart" (tail), "redwing", "redshank", "redpoll". My favourite "Jack" is the fine linguistic pile-up, "jackanapes". SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >"Robin" is one of the early first-name ones, though. Its "real" name is >"redbreast", with "Robin" tacked on like the daw's "Jack". Other red-bit >British listers are, or include, "redstart" (tail), "redwing", >"redshank", "redpoll". > >My favourite "Jack" is the fine linguistic pile-up, "jackanapes". One I needed explained to me was "Jackanory", which I first encountered in a cut scene from one of the Tomb Raider games....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms > (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, > Pike's Peak [officially Pikes Peak]) All I can say there is the US Post Office (and apparently other post offices, from a recent thread) has been quite fond of removing the apostrophes from names and declaring the non-apostrophe form as official. Wikipedia under "Martha's Vineyard": ...The United States Board on Geographic Names worked to standardize placename spellings in the late 19th century, including the dropping of apostrophes. Thus for a time Martha's Vineyard was officially named Marthas Vineyard, but the Board reversed its decision in the early 20th century, making Martha's Vineyard one of the five[5] placenames in the United States today with a possessive apostrophe.[6] 5.^ The others are Carlos Elmer's Joshua View, Arizona; Clarke's Mountain, Oregon; Ike's Point, New Jersey; and John E's Pond, Rhode Island. "Gardens". QI. 26 November 2009. No. 1, season 7. (BBC Television) 6.^ George R. Stewart. Names on the Land. Houghton Mifflin Company: Boston (1967), pg. 345 >"of" forms (islets of > Langerhans), and derived adjectives (Bodleian Library, Blackburnian > warbler)? Maybe a rule would be, if an adjective exists, we tend to use it? English X instead of England X or England's X (though those are possible). SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms > > (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 6.^ George R. Stewart. Names on the Land. Houghton Mifflin > Company: Boston (1967), pg. 345 And very silly of the Board on Geographic Names, too, if you want to know my opinion. There's been some discussion of this on the mailing list, especially in regard to "Pikes Peak". I don't see that the Board was ever connected with the Post Office, though maybe the Post Office has lobbied them about apostrophes or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Board_on_Geographic_Names > >"of" forms (islets of > > Langerhans), and derived adjectives (Bodleian Library, Blackburnian [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > English X instead of England X or England's X (though those are > possible). Although as Claude Weil has recently pointed out, we say "Queen of England". -- Jerry Friedman >>> Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms >>> (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Although as Claude Weil has recently pointed out, we say "Queen of > England". Quite wrongly, in fact. Her title doesn't mention England at all: By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. SignatureJames > >>> Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms > >>> (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, > >>> Pike's Peak [officially Pikes Peak]) ... > >>> "of" forms (islets of > >>> Langerhans), and derived adjectives (Bodleian Library, Blackburnian [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the > Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? -- Jerry Friedman >> >>> Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms >> >>> (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? >"Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? Queen of Canada would do. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Are there any rules or patterns about the eponymous use of plain forms >>>>> (Lincoln County, Montezuma quail), apostrophe-s forms (Broca's area, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? > "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? "Queen of the United Kingdom" would be an acceptable short form. SignatureJames [...] >> When we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we >> say, if we wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United >> Kingdom"? "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? > > "Queen of the United Kingdom" would be an acceptable short form. I don't think I've often, if ever, seen or heard it in ordinary use, though. I rather suspect that if one really had to avoid "Queen of England" and just "the Queen", one would take a different route, and say "Queen Elizabeth" or "the present Queen Elizabeth", or something of that sort. SignatureMike. > We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When > we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we > wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? > "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? Her Britannic Majesty works for me. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When >> we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we >> wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? >> "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? > > Her Britannic Majesty works for me. How much do you pay her? SignatureJames >>> We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When >>> we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How much do you pay her? Quite a lot - getting on for half of what she pays me in fact. Sometimes it feels like Zeno's paradox. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When >> we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we >> wanted to avoid "Queen of England". "Queen of the United Kingdom"? >> "Queen of Britain"? "Brenda"? > >Her Britannic Majesty works for me. Mrs Battenberg? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> We say that when we're talking about Edith of Wessex, of course. When >>> we're talking about Elizabeth II, we say... what /would/ we say, if we [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Mrs Battenberg? Being Queen is a piece of cake. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Jerry Friedman filted: >A mailing-list discussion about "Steller's jay" (the official name) >versus "Steller Jay" has coincided with our thread about noun >modifiers, just after some comments about "Down's syndrome" versus >"Down syndrome". A plot point on tonight's new episode of "Family Guy" involved a character with what the closed-captioning consistently rendered as "Down's Syndrome"...it caught my attention because of the recent thread on the subject.... NB that the captions included only one apostrophe each time the phrase appeared, unlike the captions on "Big Bang Theory" that always display *two* apostrophes (not double quotes)...I suspect a messed-up setting in BBT's "quoting and unquoting" software....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > (not double quotes)...I suspect a messed-up setting in BBT's "quoting and > unquoting" software....r I've been surprised at the lack of references to Big Bang Theory in This Place. I'm entirely capivated by it, obviously because I lean in the same direction as the three chums of Sheldon (except that I never had any problems with girls). I don't lean as far as Sheldon himself, but I understand his view of the world. SignatureDavid > I've been surprised at the lack of references to Big Bang Theory in > This Place. I'm entirely capivated by it, obviously because I lean > in the same direction as the three chums of Sheldon (except that I > never had any problems with girls). I don't lean as far as Sheldon > himself, but I understand his view of the world. I like Penny. SignatureSkitt (AmE) a dirty old man > >> I've been surprised at the lack of references to Big Bang Theory in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I like Penny. Spouse and I never miss it, uncomfortably close to home though it may be and reminiscent of a certain Institute of Technology (not the one depicted fictionally in the series) with which we were both associated once upon a time (BrE: in the day). SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>> I've been surprised at the lack of references to Big Bang Theory in >>> This Place. I'm entirely capivated by it, obviously because I lean in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > depicted fictionally in the series) with which we were both associated > once upon a time (BrE: in the day). That's "back in the day". SignatureDavid the Omrud filted: >I've been surprised at the lack of references to Big Bang Theory in This >Place. I'm entirely capivated by it, obviously because I lean in the >same direction as the three chums of Sheldon (except that I never had >any problems with girls). I don't lean as far as Sheldon himself, but I >understand his view of the world. Note that by the end of the first season, the other three had all managed to "get lucky" despite their various social handicaps...I keep waiting for the writers to come up with a way for Sheldon to do likewise (perhaps as experiment to see what all the fuss is about)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > the Omrud filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > likewise (perhaps as experiment to see what all the fuss is > about)....r He's had opportunities. He seemed disinclined to pursue. Whether he recognized the opportunities and decided not to, or just was unaware of them is another question. Brian SignatureDay 378 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> the Omrud filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > recognized the opportunities and decided not to, or just was unaware of > them is another question. As Leonard says, "If science ever discovers another member of your species, I'll be happy to leave the two of you alone in the apartment". SignatureDavid |
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