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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010Pronounce "Villeroy & Boch" for me
Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.) So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in your part of the world pronounce it? Just curious.  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Just curious. Vill a roy Bock Boston Massachsetts > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Just curious. Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on its own I'd pronounce it "bock". NZ/Aus English Tasha Miller (in alt.usage.english): > Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on > its own I'd pronounce it "bock". It's a German company, and "Boch" rhymes with Scottish "loch". Joachim SignatureMy favourite # 75: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mnm2qPYLUo> My favourite # 56: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TalLjSUoBKw> Joachim Pense (in alt.usage.english): > Tasha Miller (in alt.usage.english): > >> Vill er roy and bosh. I don't know why because if I came across "Boch" on >> its own I'd pronounce it "bock". > > It's a German company, and "Boch" rhymes with Scottish "loch". "Bock" would be ok, as the founder was French. But then again, he was from a German-speaking part of French... Joachim SignatureMy favourite # 43: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfFBdViZHzk> My favourite # 9: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9eHp7JJgq8> > Joachim Pense (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "Bock" would be ok, as the founder was French. But then again, he was from a > German-speaking part of French... Over here they seem to hold themselves out as Luxembourgeois. Which is a whole nother smoke. Or several smokes combined, depending on your mileage. best from Brussels, Stephanie > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Just curious. It would depend who or what they were. I might say veal-roy, vill-roy, villa-roy or even ville-roi (frenchified). I might say bock or bosh or germanified boch (with the 'ch' from the centre of many-hued). Depends if they're a business outfit from Belgium, France, Germany or wherever. Depends if they're a vaudeville act or an old-established firm of Savile Row tailors. If they're someone or something I'm supposed to have heard of then I imagine I would pronounce them as I heard it first. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >> Villeroy& Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Just curious. > It would depend who or what they were. I might say veal-roy, vill-roy, > villa-roy or even ville-roi (frenchified). I might say bock or bosh or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If they're someone or something I'm supposed to have heard of then I imagine > I would pronounce them as I heard it first. I know the name but can't recall who they are or where they originate. I'm not sure that I've ever needed to speak the name, but in my mind's ear it would be Villa-roy and 'germanified boch' -- but a little more guttural than John's version. Perce >>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >>> Villeroy& Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I know the name but can't recall who they are or where they originate. They have been making ceramic tableware since the 1700s. Just about any good department store has something made by V&B in the chinaware department. We don't have any V&B dinnerware, but I have a V&B Mettlach beer pitcher (#6 design). SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Just curious. Since I've never heard of them or even seen them written, I can only guess: if not speaking French, I would say "vill - roy and bosh". I didn't think the first name was open to mangling, apart from the "roy/rwah" choice, until I saw Ray's answer. SignatureRob Bannister >> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy & >> Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say if I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Just curious. Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy? His name gets pronounced Roy, ru ah , wah and a few other ways, He never helps out by mentioning how he says it. > Since I've never heard of them or even seen them written, I can only > guess: if not speaking French, I would say "vill - roy and bosh". I didn't > think the first name was open to mangling, apart from the "roy/rwah" > choice, until I saw Ray's answer. [Villeroy & Boch] > Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy? > His name gets pronounced Roy, ru ah , wah and a few other ways, > He never helps out by mentioning how he says it. He says it "rwah", when he's at home. >>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy & >>> Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say if I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? I was just puzzled why you (and apparently several others) felt the need to insert a syllable between the "vill" and the "roy". > Are you familiar with the great NHL goalie Patrick Roy? No. I don't even know what NHL is, but it sounds like something dodgy from the National Health. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of Villeroy >>>> & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and what I'd say [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > No. I don't even know what NHL is, but it sounds like something dodgy from > the National Health. National Hockey League,{ice hockey} >>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >>>> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I was just puzzled why you (and apparently several others) felt the need > to insert a syllable between the "vill" and the "roy". Because there's a vowel there, which I would pronounce as a schwa. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >>>>> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Because there's a vowel there, which I would pronounce as a schwa. There is s similar surname, Villeneuve, which Macquarie says is pronounced /veel'nerv/, and I certainly think Jacques Villeneuve's surname is usually pronounced that way by English speakers. However, had I not heard it pronounced, I would probably say /'viluhnerv/. It just seems more logical to me. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >>>>> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Because there's a vowel there, which I would pronounce as a schwa. I can't claim this is exhaustive, but I find the following place names in South Australia. (I had only ever heard of Walkerville; more recently my sister moved to Hectorville). Ashville, Copeville, Forestville, Frayville, Frewville, Glanville, Hectorville, Normanville, Petersville, Taylorville, Walkerville, Woodville. My point is that none of these have the final vowel pronounced, nor can I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where "ville" has two syllables. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >I can't claim this is exhaustive, but I find the following place names >in South Australia. (I had only ever heard of Walkerville; more recently [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where "ville" has >two syllables. Not at the end, perhaps...whom do I ask to find out how the locals pronounce "Villegreen" (Colorado), "Ville Platte" (Louisiana, admittedly not necessarily an English-speaking place), or "Ville du Parc" (Illinois)?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>>>>> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >>>>>> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I think of anywhere else in the English-speaking world where "ville" has > two syllables. That's completely different. They all have "ville" at the end of the word. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. [...] >>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > That's completely different. They all have "ville" at the end of the > word. Quite so. On the spur of the moment I can't think of an English word in which "e" is mute between "l" and "r". There are usually exceptions, so it won't surprise me if some are produced; but there's nothing strange about pronouncing "Villeroy" on the analogy of "gallery". SignatureMike. >[...] >>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >it won't surprise me if some are produced; but there's nothing strange >about pronouncing "Villeroy" on the analogy of "gallery". Right. There you are strolling through the University of Missouri–-St. Louis along Bellerive Drive. How would you pronounce it? My first attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent. http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> [...] >>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > attempt would be with the "e" in "ler" silent. > http://tinyurl.com/y8efkay And don't forget Coleraine. SignatureJames >>> [...] >>>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >And don't forget Coleraine. Oops. I had forgotten that. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Oops. I had forgotten that. And just a few miles from Coleraine is Castlerock. Also in Northern Ireland is Castlereagh, and across the water in England is Castlerigg, Keswick, Cumbria. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Ireland is Castlereagh, and across the water in England is Castlerigg, > Keswick, Cumbria. None of which is analogous to "Villeroy", since "castle" as a word has two syllables, and "ville" as a suffix has one. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Ireland is Castlereagh, and across the water in England is Castlerigg, > Keswick, Cumbria. "Castle", as Annily notes, has an established pronunciation already. The "e" after the "l" --which you'll have noticed is single --seems to be there to lengthen the "o". But no need to bring in the artillery, or keep hollering about it: we can settle down with the product of our favourite distillery, and call in that rather greenery-yallery Queen, Ellery, to solve the mystery for us. (Has he a sister Valerie?) Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, "Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"? SignatureMike. >Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people >pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, >"Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"? I belive most AmE speakers pronounce "colliery" as "that weird forn word for 'coal mine'". -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people >> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, >> "Villiers". Does, or did, anybody say "coller" for "collier"? > > I belive most AmE speakers pronounce "colliery" as "that weird forn > word for 'coal mine'". I'm sure few BritEtcE speakers outside the mining areas use the word, either, except as part of proper names. There's rhyme and reason, though: I gather that in some places "coal mine" would once have seemed a contradiction in terms, because "mine" meant "iron ore". (That's what a South Wales "collier" told me, but it does seem to have been regional, or complicated in some other way. The history looks a bit tangled from OED's entry.) SignatureMike. On 19 Feb 2010, Mike Lyle wrote >>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of >>> people pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > does seem to have been regional, or complicated in some other > way. The history looks a bit tangled from OED's entry.) If asked -- which I never have been -- I'd have guessed that a colliery is an operation that includes more than one individual coal mine. ("Although there were once four mines at the Fartlesthorpe Colliery, only one is now operational.") I have absolutely no idea why I might think this is the case. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 19 Feb 2010, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I have absolutely no idea why I might think this is the case. I don't think it works. OK, there may be the odd case, but I feel sure that it's generally a case of each pit being a separate colliery. ("The pit" is the usual word...now I come to think of it, there's even a place near Bristol named Coalpit Heath: the South Wales coalfield spills over into England.) SignatureMike. Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>: >now I come to think of it, there's even a place >near Bristol named Coalpit Heath: the South Wales coalfield spills over >into England.) Under, surely? SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England <snip> >I don't think it works. When said in my family, my mother, a stickler on the avoidance of ambiguity, often objected to the above phrasing. To her, it implied we weren't thinking. See what I was up against? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people >>> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm sure few BritEtcE speakers outside the mining areas use the word, > either, except as part of proper names. Plus those involved with collieries. I worked for a few months at Rye House Power Station (near where Robin lives), and the trains of coal slack we received every day were definitely termed to have come from collieries, never from coal mines. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people >>>> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >slack we received every day were definitely termed to have come from >collieries, never from coal mines. I was born in a mining district. The local pit, which employed many of my neighbours, was Babbington Colliery. I don't think we ever called its employees "coal miners", just "miners", and it was always referred to informally as the "pit", with its pit heaps, pit cottages etc. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England [...] > I was born in a mining district. The local pit, which employed many > of my neighbours, was Babbington Colliery. I don't think we ever > called its employees "coal miners", just "miners", and it was always > referred to informally as the "pit", with its pit heaps, pit cottages > etc. Aficionados of L. Durrell's diplomatic humour will remember the headline in The Central Balkan Herald reading, "Britain to buy Serbian tit-props." SignatureMike. >>>>> Athwart the topic, has anybody else noticed that a lot of people >>>>> pronounce "colliery" as "collery"? Like the shibboleth surname, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > referred to informally as the "pit", with its pit heaps, pit cottages > etc. That is what I have always heard from all English people who have been involved in any way with working for a coal mine. Note that in my case we were dealing with the colliery, not working down the pit or going to the pit. I think "the pit" has to be the only or at least the main mine where most people in town work. SignatureRob Bannister >>> [...] >>>>>>>> Would you rather I wrote Vill uh roy? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > And don't forget Coleraine. Well, there is a town in Victoria, Australia, called "Coleraine" and I've always prnonounced it /'koluhrayn/. Macquarie gives this as the first (more-common) pronounciation, followed by /'kohlrayn/ as an alternative. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and > what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as > discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.) > > So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? Since I'd never heard of "Villeroy & Boch", I don't pronounce it at all, but would probably say "viluhroy and bock". SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. Harvey Van Sickle: > So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? Never heard of them. If I had to read your article aloud to someone, I'd probably say "VIL-uh-roy and BOK". SignatureMark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago, Toronto and I see no hope for further development." msb@vex.net -- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D. >Harvey Van Sickle: >> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? > >Never heard of them. If I had to read your article aloud to someone, >I'd probably say "VIL-uh-roy and BOK". Same here, except that I have heard of them, and the speaker pronounced the name thus. (The fact that we have a well-known local auto-dealer named Ernie Boch, Jr. (pronounced /bAk/) increases the likelihood that this is a false memory.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >>Harvey Van Sickle: >>> So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Boch, Jr. (pronounced /bAk/) increases the likelihood that this is a > false memory.) I worked there in the 70s, we called it Bock {bauk}. HVS <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>: >Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in >your part of the world pronounce it? I selected V&B sanitary ware for our bathroom, so I'm somewhat qualified. Normal UK plumber's merchant pronunciation is "VILL-uh-roy-n-BOSH" or, more rarely, "VILL-uh-roy-n-BOCH" with the "ch" from the Scottish word "loch". The two versions reflect regional variation among native German speakers. The company was founded in Lorraine, which has for centuries been contested by France and Germany. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in > your part of the world pronounce it? I would pronounce it as French. Boch is not a very French-looking name, but the original Boch was Jean-François Boch and was French. Wikipedia claims it is pronounced "bok" in French, but I don't think that is right. I think most people around here would say "bosh". Signatureathel > > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > claims it is pronounced "bok" in French, but I don't think that is > right. I think most people around here would say "bosh". It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, Jan > It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill in the right places, thank heavens. cheers, Stephanie On 15 Feb 2010, tsuidf wrote >> It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, > > And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill > in the right places, thank heavens. Ah, but does one clean the electric drill along with the coffee cups in the dishwasher, or does it go in the washing machine? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > > It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, > > And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill > in the right places, thank heavens. You don't have a Bosch to wash the Boch in? Jan J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: >> > It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, >> >> And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill >> in the right places, thank heavens. > >You don't have a Bosch to wash the Boch in? We do, as it happens. I'd never noticed. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We do, as it happens. I'd never noticed. The Bosch-like mispronunciation of Boch probably comes from misreading. The Bosch name is quite visible, while the Boch is rarely seen except in fine print at the underside of a saucer. And even if seen a quick scan stops at Ville... Jan > > > It is a bit hard to keep Messieurs Boch and Bosch apart, > > > And yet one manages to store the coffee cups and the electric drill > > in the right places, thank heavens. > > You don't have a Bosch to wash the Boch in? Nope, we Smeg them. Yuck, that sounds horrid. > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in > your part of the world pronounce it? The Dutch generaly follow the German pronunciation. Using the French one would be seen as affected, or pretentious. Jan > Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of > Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears and > what I'd say if I said it. (I didn't raise the question, as > discretion on the part of the word-nerd kicked in.) > > So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? Expensive. > I don't mean "How does the company pronounce it?" or "How is > pronounced in its home territory?" -- I mean, how do do people in > your part of the world pronounce it? > > Just curious. Villa Roy and Bosh. I've never heard anything different and ISTR that's how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester Village. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 15 Feb 2010, LFS wrote >> Background: a discussion this evening, with a pronunciation of >> Villeroy & Boch that was at odds with what my mind's ear hears [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that's how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester > Village. That's how I've always said it; the different pronunciation was "bock" -- which struck me as entirely reasonable and made me question my pronunciation of "Villeroy" as well. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Just curious. > > Villa Roy and Bosh. I've never heard anything different and ISTR > that's how they say it in their outlet store at Bicester Village. In YourSpeak, does "outlet store" mean "Place where the company tries to unload surplus manufactured goods (and anything else they think you might buy if you get the impression that deep discounts are available)" as it does around here in the Southwest USA, where there are some humoungous malls devoted entirely to "outlets"? I have referred to regular stores as (that company's) outlet. "Outlet store" seems to have shifted the meaning a bit. Just curious. SignatureFrank ess >>> Just curious. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > as it does around here in the Southwest USA, where there are some > humoungous malls devoted entirely to "outlets"? Yes, it does. Generally, there are few real bargains to be had in these places IME unless you are very slim and have poor taste. We used to visit Bicester about once a year to buy the occasional gift in the V & B shop but more to eat at the nearest Carluccio's. > I have referred to regular stores as (that company's) outlet. "Outlet > store" seems to have shifted the meaning a bit. > > Just curious. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) ... > > In YourSpeak, does "outlet store" mean "Place where the company tries to > > unload surplus manufactured goods (and anything else they think you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes, it does. Generally, there are few real bargains to be had in these > places IME unless you are very slim and have poor taste. ... Tempting. Do they have tall sizes? -- Jerry Friedman, here in the Southwest USA On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote Thanks for the responses so far; interesting. I've only ever heard and said "villa roy and bosh". The different pronunciation last night was "bock", which I realised was an entirely reasonable way for someone to look at the name; caused me to question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS (in alt.usage.english): > On 14 Feb 2010, HVS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > question my pronunciation of both names; and made me wonder if > either "ville-roi" or "bock" were in common use. I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was French, but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany) is "Bock". The German pronounciation is "Boch" (with a German "ach" sound at the end), and that would be rendered "Bock" in English again. If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche". Joachim SignatureMy favourite # 30: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6WwuxqXPOg> My favourite # 45: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xa75w-vEXk> On 15 Feb 2010, Joachim Pense wrote > HVS (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche". Oh, I'm sure you're correct that that's what it *ought* to be, but as Laura has confirmed the standard pronunciation in England -- including by people who sell the products in V&B shops -- appears to be "bosh". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 15 Feb 2010, Joachim Pense wrote > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >including by people who sell the products in V&B shops -- appears >to be "bosh". That's how I've always heard it in England: Villa Roy and Bosh. It doesn't actually matter how foreigners pronounce it. We don't say Paree, either. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > On 15 Feb 2010, Joachim Pense wrote > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > including by people who sell the products in V&B shops -- appears > to be "bosh". But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in "ville" that do not have this sound change. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english): > But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find > that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in > "ville" that do not have this sound change. Maybe via German? It's just a spelling pronounciation, because German has no silent e. Joachim SignatureMy favourite # 67: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM> My favourite # 51: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKX3U5Pnf5Q> > Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Joachim A bold statement that has me searching for a French or even English loanword where the e is silent. I haven't thought of one yet, but I wouldn't bet that none exists. SignatureRob Bannister >> Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english): >>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". >>> I find that very strange as there a number of English place names >>> ending in "ville" that do not have this sound change. > >> Maybe via German? It's just a spelling pronounciation, because >> German has no silent e. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nonsense! See below. > A bold statement that has me searching for a French or even English > loanword where the e is silent. I haven't thought of one yet, but I > wouldn't bet that none exists. Rob, as a former _Deutschlehrer_, you know of course that German has zillions of silent e's (i.e., e's that are not pronounced). Just a few: _die_ /di:/ _Dieb_ /di:p/ _Hieb_ /hi:p/ _hielt_ /hi:lt/ _lieb_ /li:p/ _Kopie_ /ko'pi:/ (but Austrian German: /'ko:pj@/ ) _Melodie_ /melo'di:/ In _Melodie_, the first <e> is pronounced, the second not. _raffiniert_ /,rafi'ni:rt/, from French _raffiner_ _Raffinerie_ /,rafin@'ri:/, from French _raffinerie_, etc., etc. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman (in alt.usage.english): >>> Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > _raffiniert_ /,rafi'ni:rt/, from French _raffiner_ > _Raffinerie_ /,rafin@'ri:/, from French _raffinerie_, etc., etc. That e is not silent. It prolongs the i. Joachim SignatureMy favourite # 85: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIIiYHEtx4> My favourite # 20: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGO0wbRdI4Y> > Reinhold {Rey} Aman (in alt.usage.english): >>>> Robert Bannister (in alt.usage.english): [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > That e is not silent. It prolongs the i. SILENT: not making or accompanied by any sound. In all my above examples (except _Melodie_ and _Raffinerie_, which have two e's, one pronounced, the second SILENT), the <e> *is* SILENT = not pronounced/spoken --> not heard. Its *function* is to lengthen the <i> /i/ to /i:/, but it's still SILENT = not pronounced/spoken --> not heard. End of discussion. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman (in alt.usage.english): > End of discussion. Yes, please! SignatureMy favourite # 64: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2R0Rq55-tc> My favourite # 80: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkCayGh1OvU> Rob Bannister: > But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find > that very strange as there a number of English place names ending in > "ville" that do not have this sound change. But *that* "ville" is only a suffix. This sequence of letters at the start of the words must be something else. So it must be vill-er-roy. WTP? ("What's the problem?") SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net #define MSB(type) (~(((unsigned type)-1)>>1)) > Rob Bannister: >> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to "villa". I find [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ("What's the problem?") Not so much a problem as a puzzle. "Ville" for me has always been closer to a stand-alone word than a mere suffix - maybe influence of French, I don't know - but unless I were speaking German, I would pronounce "ville" as "vill" in any position. There are a few other French words that have crept into some posh English places, (grille, mille) and I would give all these an "ill" pronunciation even if in French, the "ll" was really more like a "y". SignatureRob Bannister On 20 Feb 2010, Robert Bannister wrote >> Rob Bannister: >>> But nobody has explained how "ville" became converted to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Not so much a problem as a puzzle. "Ville" for me has always > been closer to a stand-alone word than a mere suffix Hmm....I think that's a fairly idiosyncratic reaction. As an English name element, I'd say it's almost always a secondary, suffixed element when it appears at the end of a compound, rather than any sort of a stand-alone element. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > HVS (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I don't think "bosh" is right. The French pronounciation (Boch was French, > but from a German-speaking region, and the Company is in Germany) is "Bock". In the region concerned you are doubtless right. But in parts of France that are much further away from the Luxemburg border than where Boch came from people aren't too conscious of how German names are pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try to find out. > The German pronounciation is "Boch" (with a German "ach" sound at the end), > and that would be rendered "Bock" in English again. > > If it was "bosh", it should be spelled "Boche". Only for people for whom mute e is really mute (which is far from being the case in the south). Signatureathel Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english): >> HVS (in alt.usage.english): >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > pronounced, and I think here in the south they'd say bosh, but I'll try > to find out. German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [ˌvɪlərɔɪʊnt ˈbɔx], frz. [vilʀwaeˈbɔk] SignatureMy favourite # 67: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM> My favourite # 46: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na_3r_bf5gA> Joachim Pense a écrit : > Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english): > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > German WP gives German and French pronounciations in IPA: dt. [ˌvɪlərɔɪʊnt > ˈbɔx], frz. [vilʀwaeˈbɔk] That's what the English Wikipedia says too, but I agree with Athel : there are lots and lots of French people who are not aware of that pronunciation, which I take to be the recommended one, and who say [bɔʃ]. I had a brief stint as a shop assistant in the tableware department at Le Printemps department store, and everybody, the customers as well as all the other shop assistants always used the "Bosch" pronunciation. The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to newsgroup matters-- yields the same results: everybody says "Bosch". We are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at school. We regularly pronounce "Bach" with a [k], though. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini > Joachim Pense a écrit : > > Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english): [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > are all reasonably well educated and some of us even studied German at > school. Have you asked them to spell it? (without giving a clue first) Jan J. J. Lodder a écrit : [...] >> The informal poll I've conducted among my nearest and dearest --they are >> getting used to being asked all sorts of bizarre questions related to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Have you asked them to spell it? > (without giving a clue first) They have no problem spelling it. True, one of them rationalized about the "Bosch" pronunciation by saying that it was due to people confusing the dishwasher makers with the coffee-cup makers. But we pronounce it "Bosch", because it's the way we've always heard it, even, as I said in my previous post, from people whose job it was to sell the stuff. Another reason, put forward by another one of my informants, and one on which we have already remarked in this newsgroup, might be that the same trend is observed in traditional French-Frenchifying pronunciation of originally German names. A film directed by Joseph Losey with Alain Delon bears the title "Monsieur Klein". It's about a French Alsatian (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name is pronounced as in French "clin". SignatureIsabelle Cecchini > J. J. Lodder a écrit : > [...] [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > originally German names. A film directed by Joseph Losey with Alain > Delon bears the title "Monsieur Klein". Not particularly French. It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with the Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause to switch the mental apparatus to the other language. So the Klein naturally becomes something which fits in with the French brain/muscle setting. It works the same way in Dutch too (where Klein is a common name) The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different from the Klein in Herr Klein. > It's about a French Alsatian > (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name is > pronounced as in French "clin". 'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English. During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable, (der Adolf being very fond of them) <http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg> and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian, which is of course something else altogether. Jan J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: >It works the same way in most languages. >Saying Monsieur Klein, with the Monsieur in French >and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause >to switch the mental apparatus to the other language. That's exactly what we'd do in English, without, as far as I'm aware, any pause. Our mental apparatus is in "foreign" throughout. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: > >It works the same way in most languages. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's exactly what we'd do in English, without, as far as I'm aware, > any pause. Our mental apparatus is in "foreign" throughout. There must be. Eperiment a montré que lire or speaking mixed language sentences (switching randomly in mid-sentence between French and English for example) takes measurably more time. You of course may be the exception, but I wouldn't bet on it, Jan > > J. J. Lodder <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl>: > > >It works the same way in most languages. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > between French and English for example) > takes measurably more time. ... And maybe they tried it on gente who've code-switched all their lives, like some of my vecinos, pero I wouldn't bet on it, a la ve'. I on the other hand hesitate in switching from English to any other language I know any of, in speaking and in listening. -- Jerry Friedman J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: >> J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>: >> >It works the same way in most languages. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >You of course may be the exception, You talk of sentences but in fact we don't have a sentence here, we have two proper nouns. The pause that you mention is in effect a loss of fluency. I don't have any fluency to lose, in either language. >but I wouldn't bet on it, I'm not a betting man. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England <snip> >I'm not a betting man. As I see it, each morning you get out of bed, you are betting your life against some freakish act of nature or man. So we're all betting men. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote >> It's about a French Alsatian >> (that sounds a bit like a dog-breed, doesn't it?) and his name >> is pronounced as in French "clin". > > 'An Alsatian' is primarily a dog breed, in English. Well it was that, but in dog-breeding circles the name was changed back to "German Shepherd" about 30 years ago. > During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable, > (der Adolf being very fond of them) > <http://wow.blogs.com/words/hitler6-thumb.jpg> > and they were renamed to the less offensive Alsatian, I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI rather than II. > On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Well it was that, but in dog-breeding circles the name was changed > back to "German Shepherd" about 30 years ago. Among dog breeders perhaps. Googling on "an Alsatian" still throws up predominantly doggie hits. > > During WW II German shepperd dogs became very unfashionable, > > (der Adolf being very fond of them) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI > rather than II. Quite possible, for England. I have the WW II version from an American friend, Jan > > On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Quite possible, for England. > I have the WW II version from an American friend, I don't recall ever hearing or reading "Alsatian" for a German shepherd in America. I happen to know it from British sources, but I don't think most Americans, seeing "a French Alsatian", would think of a dog. -- Jerry Friedman > I don't recall ever hearing or reading "Alsatian" for a German > shepherd in America. I happen to know it from British sources, but I > don't think most Americans, seeing "a French Alsatian", would think of > a dog. I would. I'm not sure what context imprinted me, but quite likely an old mystery novel, which might or might not have been by an British author. >On 17 Feb 2010, J. J. Lodder wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I'm fairly certain the name change dated to during or just after WWI >rather than II. The OED has these quotes: Alsatian 2. The registered Kennel Club name for the German Shepherd Dog (deutscher Schäferhund), formerly known as the Alsatian wolf-dog (occas. wolf-hound). The name Alsatian was adopted in order to avoid the associations of German. The dog does not belong to Alsace, nor is there a wolf strain in its composition. .... 1922 R. LEIGHTON Compl. Bk. Dog 119 The dogs lately introduced into Great Britain as the Alsatian Wolfdog and into the United States as the German sheepdog. Ibid. 120 The Alsatian was known in England before the war. .... 1948 C. L. B. HUBBARD Dogs in Britain xviii. 197 The breed [German Shepherd Dog], on its re-importation during 1918-1919, was named Alsatian Wolfdog. .... This just leaves the question as to whether German Shepherd Dogs imported into Britain per-1914 retained that breed name during the war. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with the > Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The Klein in Mijnheer Klein comes out subtly different from the Klein in > Herr Klein. It's /kleIn/ vs /klaIn/ or something like that, isn't it? Not particularly subtle (about like "Jones" vs "Johns" in English), to my ear. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with the > > Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable pause to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It's /kleIn/ vs /klaIn/ or something like that, isn't it? Not > particularly subtle (about like "Jones" vs "Johns" in English), to my ear. How different depends on which Dutch or German dialect you are speaking, Jan >> > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with >> > the Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > How different depends on which Dutch or German dialect you are speaking, Well, that makes sense. Thank you. I have my hands full attempting to speak some approximation of just one rather bookish dialect apiece for each language! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > >> > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, with > >> > the Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a noticable [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I have my hands full attempting to speak some approximation of just one > rather bookish dialect apiece for each language! As a general rule in upper class/bookish/old-fashioned Dutch the vowels are pronounced clearly. (Like in Prof Higgin's language lessons) Dialects tend to have them more slurred, with the 'ei' going in the 'ai' direction. And don't worry, speaking such a bookish dialect is hard for the average Dutchman too, It is becoming very unfashionable, Jan >> >> > It works the same way in most languages. Saying Monsieur Klein, >> >> > with the Monsieur in French and the Klein in German requires a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > direction. And don't worry, speaking such a bookish dialect is hard for > the average Dutchman too, It is becoming very unfashionable, Yeah, I know. Oh, well -- it's not exactly as they won't immediately spot me as a non-native speaker (or wannabe) the minute I open my mouth anyway! My French may be even further behind the times... It's nice to be able to speak utterly classless American English in the UK, though! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Joachim Pense a écrit : > > Athel Cornish-Bowden (in alt.usage.english): [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > We regularly pronounce "Bach" with a [k], though. Is your Milou also addicted to Lok Lomond, or do the Scots keep their ch pronunciation? Jan J. J. Lodder a écrit : [...] >> We regularly pronounce "Bach" with a [k], though. > > Is your Milou also addicted to Lok Lomond, > or do the Scots keep their ch pronunciation? Yes, Lok Lomond as in Lok Ness. That's how it's pronounced in French. And "Lomond" would have a nasal vowel at the end and the "d" would be silent. I suspect an analogy with "lac Léman". SignatureIsabelle Cecchini >So: how do you pronounce "Villeroy & Boch"? [,vIlErOIUnt'bOx] I = Near-close near-front unrounded vowel E = Mid central vowel O = Open-mid back rounded vowel U = Near-close near-back vowel x = Voiceless velar fricative all other's = as in IPA. |
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