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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010The old lay/lie conundrum
Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of descriptive action and dialogue. Action is usually described in the active voice. I need to describe the following: "John and Mary are lying on a mattress, staring blankly at the ceiling." However, I need to mention the mattress first, like so: "On the mattress lie John and Mary on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling." Is that the proper use of 'lie'? Should it be 'lies' or, perhaps, something else? TIA. > Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. > FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TIA. You should use 'lie', and I suppose you could put the verb 'lie' ahead of the subject 'John and Mary', but it would sound better if you wrote "On the mattress, John and Mary lie on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling." I'd put 'on the mattress' after 'lie', but from what you say, you have something in the context, perhaps in the preceding sentence, that makes it better to have 'on the mattress' first.  SignatureCheryl > You should use 'lie', and I suppose you could put the verb 'lie' ahead > of the subject 'John and Mary', but it would sound better if you wrote > "On the mattress, John and Mary lie on their backs, staring blankly at > the ceiling." > I'd put 'on the mattress' after 'lie', but from what you say, you have > something in the context, perhaps in the preceding sentence, that makes > it better to have 'on the mattress' first. I'd argue that you could omit the "on their backs", because if they're lying staring blankly at the ceiling, they're hardly likely to be lying on their fronts. Unless of course this is a sequel to "The Exorcist", or a mirror is involved. :-) SignatureAndy Clews University of Sussex *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email *** >> You should use 'lie', and I suppose you could put the verb 'lie' >> ahead of the subject 'John and Mary', but it would sound better if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to be lying on their fronts. Unless of course this is a sequel to > "The Exorcist", or a mirror is involved. :-) It's not hard to lie on your side (head on hand) and stare at the ceiling. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |He who will not reason, is a bigot; 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |he who cannot is a fool; and he who Palo Alto, CA 94304 |dares not is a slave. | Sir William Drummond kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > A.Cl...@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk writes: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - And actors need all the direction they can be given! [ ... ] > It's not hard to lie on your side (head on hand) and stare at the > ceiling. For most people ... SignatureBob Lieblich Who can't do it > [ ... ] > >> It's not hard to lie on your side (head on hand) and stare at the >> ceiling. > > For most people ... Yeah. The cod liver oil doesn't seem to help, but think how much worse it might be if I stop... Some kind friends gave me a tub of huge glucosamine tabs, but I refuse to believe in it. SignatureMike. >Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >TIA. 'lie' is fine. I suggest that you reposition it, though. "On the mattress John and Mary lie on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling." The phrase "John and Mary" is plural so "lie" is correct. A longer version with singular "lies" is: "On the mattress John lies on his back. Mary lies next to him. They stare blankly at the ceiling." SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > "On the mattress John lies on his back. Mary lies next to him. They > stare blankly at the ceiling." I agree with all of that, but I think the majority of readers would say "lay", wrong as that may be thought by those who pride themselves on speaking correctly. SignatureSkitt (AmE) A good lay is a mighty fine thing > >> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. > >> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >> "On the mattress lie John and Mary on their > >> backs, staring blankly at the ceiling." [snip] > > "On the mattress John lies on his back. Mary lies next to him. They > > stare blankly at the ceiling." > > I agree with all of that, but I think the majority of readers would say > "lay", wrong as that may be thought by those who pride themselves on > speaking correctly. "Lay" IS the correct past tense of "lie." John and Mary lie on their backs. (present) John and Mary lay on their backs. (past) The difference here is that present tense works for stage direction, while past tense would be used in normal fiction. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >>> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > "lay", wrong as that may be thought by those who pride themselves on > speaking correctly. I hope you're wrong. "Lay" makes me want to vomit, unless you wanted "On the mattress, John laid Mary on her back and stared at the ceiling". SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >>>> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > "On the mattress, John laid Mary on her back and stared at the > ceiling". I didn't put it quite clearly enough. I meant to say that the verb used by the majority of the readers would be "lay" in its corresponding form -- "lays". Not that I would ever say or write that. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. > FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TIA. The way you have it is correct. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >The way you have it is correct. Correct but awkward, IMO. Since you need to mention the mattress first, how about the following? The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >>> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying on their > backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. Fair enough, but now you're writing the screenplay, rather then the OP :) SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying on >> their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. > > Fair enough, but now you're writing the screenplay, rather then > the OP :) Hey, why don't we all write the screenplay, bit by bit? I'll continue: "Should we paint it beige?" Mary contemplated, her innate low libido reduced even more by John's flaccid member. [Next. Delete this line when continuing.] Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ > >> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying on > >> their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Should we paint it beige?" Mary contemplated, her innate low libido > reduced even more by John's flaccid member. "Let's put a mirror up there, John replied. Maybe that will trigger at least a bit of lust on my part." SignatureAlan Smithee >>>> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying >>>> on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Let's put a mirror up there," John replied. "Maybe that will > trigger at least a bit of lust on my part." "Oh, John," Mary sighed. "You're so selfish and as much fun as a vibrator with dead batteries. All you want to do is talk about etymology and Austrian dialects. Screw 'em! You never ask me about my feelings and my needs." "Well, dear Mary, it's not *my* fault that you're one of those frigid Balto-Latvian chicks," John shot back. "You know damn well that John is my name and gamahuche is my game, but all *you* do is whine about your chronic yeast infections and your silly emotional needs." "Balto-Latvian, eh?" sneered Mary. "Ain't this a tad tautological, Herr Doctor Etymology?" John, a highly intelligent but prematurely impotent Bavarian, never minced his words or meats. "You know what, Lisa -- oops! I mean, Mary?" grinned John. "I'm proud of you. You spotted that redundancy or tautology, which is derived from Greek _tautologos_ and literally means 'the same word.' When I met you, you were a semiliterate slut who didn't know the difference between _tautology_ and _tautonymy_, but paying attention to my linguistic mini-lessons between my cunnilinguistic maxi-sessions, you've become almost as hip language-wise as that Wisconsinite chick I knew -- Lisa was her name, I think. Good girl, Mary!" Mary beamed with joy. Being praised by John, a blunt guy not given to flattery, not only made her blush like a coy virgin staring at a _phallus erectus_, but it aroused her sexually, engorging her naughty bits and moistening the bare mattress upon which they were lying. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >>>>> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying >>>>> on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > _phallus erectus_, but it aroused her sexually, engorging her naughty > bits and moistening the bare mattress upon which they were lying. They are distracted by the sounds of Sousa's "Liberty Bell". John reaches for his cell phone. SignatureJames >>>>>> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying >>>>>> on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > They are distracted by the sounds of Sousa's "Liberty Bell". John > reaches for his cell phone. "John!" pleaded Mary. "Don't answer that damn phone! Set it to vibrate and put it down there. Please." Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >>>>>>> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying >>>>>>> on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > "John!" pleaded Mary. "Don't answer that damn phone! Set it to > vibrate and put it down there. Please." John does as Mary asks. Mary: "I just love the way you text me." SignatureJames >>>>>>>> The bare mattress is on the floor. John and Mary are lying >>>>>>>> on their backs, staring blankly at the ceiling. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >Mary: "I just love the way you text me." "Don't stop, my dear John." SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. > FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Is that the proper use of 'lie'? Should it > be 'lies' or, perhaps, something else? Conventions for stage directions differ from those for everyday English: your draft follows stage conventions exactly. (Nobody says or writes "Exeunt omnes" -- except in stage directions, in which this is the standard way of abbreviating "All characters leave the stage.") SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >> FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > directions, in which this is the standard way > of abbreviating "All characters leave the stage.") What is it about stage directions that dictates the word order? If I wanted to indicate that "John sits cross-legged on the floor" would I have to say "On the floor sits John cross-legged"? > > Conventions for stage directions differ from > > those for everyday English: your draft follows [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to indicate that "John sits cross-legged on the floor" would I have to say > "On the floor sits John cross-legged"? Stage directions constitute a list rather than a sentence, so their completeness outweighs their structure. A stage direction lists everything the stage manager needs to verify, viz. properties and stage furniture as well as which characters perform what action. E.g. if both a sword and a dagger are on stage, the stage direction should not say merely "Albert stabs Bruce:" it should say "Albert stabs Bruce with the sword." Syntax is relatively unimportant. The stage direction may be simply "Stabs Bruce with the sword" if Albert is the last-named speaker (e.g. "Albert: Take that you rat! (Stabs Bruce with the sword.)" SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >Folks, I'm trying my hand at a screenplay. >FYI, a screenplay is composed mostly of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Is that the proper use of 'lie'? Should it >be 'lies' or, perhaps, something else? I think you could leave out "on their backs". When you say "staring at the ceiling", that follows, unless both the interpretation and their necks are twisted. SignatureJohn > I need to describe the following: "John and Mary are lying on a > mattress, staring blankly at the ceiling." However, I need to mention [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is that the proper use of 'lie'? Should it be 'lies' or, perhaps, > something else? The easiest way to answer is to review from basics. The verb "lie" means "recline" or "be situated"; it is intransitive, meaning it does not take a direct object: "Lie on the grass and feel the sunlight." The verb "lay" means "put in place" or, by extension, "prepare"; it is transitive, meaning it takes a direct object: "Lay your burden down." Confusion arises because the simple past tense of "lie" is "lay". Otherwise they are quite distinct: present past past participle -------------------------------- lie lay lain lay laid laid I reckon your best bet is to memorize some simple mnemonic template-- perhaps something like the two sample sentences above. But the object/no- object distinction is the easiest way to tell them apart. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > The verb "lie" means "recline" or "be situated"; it is intransitive, > meaning it does not take a direct object: "Lie on the grass and feel the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I reckon your best bet is to memorize some simple mnemonic template-- > perhaps something like the two sample sentences above. You almost had it. I remember Garrison Keillor working this mnemonic into his radio show somewhere: Lie means to recLINE [emphasizing the shared long-I, recl-I-ne] Lay means to PLACE [emphasizing the shared long-A, pl-A-ce] It doesn't help you remember lain and laid, though. Nor to separate the confusion with the verb "to lie" meaning to tell an untruth. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux: > Lie means to recLINE [emphasizing the shared long-I, recl-I-ne] My vowels are too far apart and one of them is longer than the other. There is no cure. SignatureJohn > Donna Richoux: > >> Lie means to recLINE [emphasizing the shared long-I, recl-I-ne] > > My vowels are too far apart and one of them is longer than the other. > There is no cure. Better vowels than bowels. SignatureRob Bannister >> The verb "lie" means "recline" or "be situated"; it is intransitive, >> meaning it does not take a direct object: "Lie on the grass and feel [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > It doesn't help you remember lain and laid, though. Nor to separate > the confusion with the verb "to lie" meaning to tell an untruth. Hmm. I never thought that there are people who can't learn or remember which word is which. I thought that the problem is the misuse that one hears on TV or in the neighborhood. Very seldom do I hear proper lie/lay distinction in those venues. "Lay" sees to be the verb of choice there, just like "for you and I" is the expression of choice. SignatureSkitt (AmE) a good lay is a fine thing >>> The verb "lie" means "recline" or "be situated"; it is intransitive, >>> meaning it does not take a direct object: "Lie on the grass and feel [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > lie/lay distinction in those venues. "Lay" sees to be the verb of > choice there, just like "for you and I" is the expression of choice. What puzzles me is why this happens in English, but not in other languages. The German and various Slavonic languages also have similar verbs for lie and lay - German even has a similar sounding verb for telling untruths - but these people don't seem to get them mixed up. My theory is that "lie down" confuses the issue; in all other European languages, the equivalent is "lay oneself (down)". SignatureRob Bannister >>>> The verb "lie" means "recline" or "be situated"; it is >>>> intransitive, meaning it does not take a direct object: "Lie on [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > My theory is that "lie down" confuses the issue; in all other European > languages, the equivalent is "lay oneself (down)". It's much trickier than that for Latvian, but I won't go into it. SignatureSkitt (AmE) |
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