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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2010The old who/whom conundrum
Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: "Every woman wants to find a man whom she can trust completely." Is that the proper use of 'whom'? TIA > Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. > This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is that the proper use of 'whom'? Technically yes, but it doesn't sound like dialogue. The sentence works without "whom".  SignatureJames >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Technically yes, but it doesn't sound like dialogue. The sentence works > without "whom". Or with "that" (though I realize that some people here believe in the superstition that "that" can't refer to a person). Signatureathel > >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. > >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Or with "that" (though I realize that some people here believe in the > superstition that "that" can't refer to a person). To complete the list, the sentence is fine for dialogue with "whom", "that", "who", or no relative pronoun. So the question is: What would that character, at that time and place, under those conditions, say? (Unless you're writing an avant-garde screenplay where you purposely have people break character.) -- Jerry Friedman >>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (Unless you're writing an avant-garde screenplay where you purposely > have people break character.) As it's dialogue, you could always use "what" as well as all the others. I don't know if "what" is used in that sense in AmE, but's certainly used in some forms of BrE. Signatureathel > >>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. > >>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > others. I don't know if "what" is used in that sense in AmE, but's > certainly used in some forms of BrE. What the heck, how about "as"? I don't think I've ever heard "what" in this sense in the wild--I know it only from books and movies and stuff. -- Jerry Friedman >>>>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What the heck, how about "as"? Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>>>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>>>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? Perfectly OK in some dialects. OED: "Obs. in standard English, but common dial. in England and the United States." The most recent example is from 1854: "It's he as lives in the great stone house." SignatureJames >>>>>>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>>>>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > but common dial. in England and the United > States." OK. I guess that's why I'd never heard of such usage, having lived all my life in the sheltered environment down under :) SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. <snip> >>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >OK. I guess that's why I'd never heard of such usage, having lived all >my life in the sheltered environment down under :) My life has been anything but sheltered and I've never heard it in either America, Scotland or Ireland. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My life has been anything but sheltered and I've never heard it in > either America, Scotland or Ireland. Never heard "Them as has, gets"? > > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Never heard "Them as has, gets"? Or "All's I know", which is short for "All as I know"? -- Jerry Friedman >>> <snip> >>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Or "All's I know", which is short for "All as I know"? Oh, really? I have heard that but thought it was a corruption of "all I know is" (or someone just trying to be silly). SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. > >>> <snip> > >>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Oh, really? I have heard that but thought it was a corruption of "all I > know is" (or someone just trying to be silly). I can't prove what I stated so definitively, but here's an example of "all as": "All as I know is, they kept City people without invitations." /Punch/, v. 21, p. 34, 1851. http://books.google.com/books?id=IFEPAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=&f=false -- Jerry Friedman >>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > "All as I know is, they kept City people without invitations." I think you're probably right. It certainly sounds like a contraction of that. It's just that it hadn't occurred to me before. I think it makes more sense than my theory. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> >>> <snip> >> >>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >http://books.google.com/books?id=IFEPAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=&f=false Interesting. I had thought the expression had no defence. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://books.google.com/books?id=IFEPAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=&f=false A long time ago, in this very newsgroup, I believe the consensus was that "as" used to be able to be used where today we'd only use "that." SignatureAl in St. Lou Who's using Thunderbird for the very first time > >>>>> <snip> > >>>>>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > A long time ago, in this very newsgroup, I believe the consensus was > that "as" used to be able to be used where today we'd only use "that." I think we were quite right, as the dictionaries confirm. Mike Page's mention of "seeing as" (which his student misspelled "seen as") is another reminder that this sense of "as" survives in some phrases. -- Jerry Friedman >> > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Or "All's I know", which is short for "All as I know"? I thought it was simply a sloppy way of saying "all I know". I occasionally heard it in the Washington, D.C. area. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> > <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I thought it was simply a sloppy way of saying "all I know". I > occasionally heard it in the Washington, D.C. area. I associate it with another "-s" ending. "I gots ta git me some." >>>> > <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >I associate it with another "-s" ending. "I gots ta git me some." In Virginia, as I heard it, that was "I gotta git me some". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >Never heard "Them as has, gets"? That, yes, but not "a man as she can trust". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > That, yes, but not "a man as she can trust". I can't find it exactly, but One of Farmer Thornton's carters, a man as I can trust to speak the truth, told me he see the man hanging about, a couple of hours or so before the race. H. C. Adams, _Wilton of Cuthbert's_, 1878 is pretty close. I also see three hits for "a man as you can trust" and two for "a man as we can trust". The most recent is from 1903. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >is pretty close. I also see three hits for "a man as you can trust" >and two for "a man as we can trust". The most recent is from 1903. Do you think the phrase was unremarkable back then, or largely confined to illiterates? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>I can't find it exactly, but >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Do you think the phrase was unremarkable back then, or largely > confined to illiterates? I suspect that it was seen as a dialect marker, probably for rural dialects and was probably seen as substandard. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>I can't find it exactly, but >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I suspect that it was seen as a dialect marker, probably for rural >dialects and was probably seen as substandard. ...by literate people, not to put words in your mouth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>I can't find it exactly, but >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > ...by literate people, not to put words in your mouth. I'm not sure that literacy would be the deciding factor, but probably by those who didn't use it and the more educated of those who did. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's like grasping the difference 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |between what one usually considers Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what |*is* a difficult problem. The day kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all (650)857-7572 |the molecules in the Universe isn't |difficult...there's the leap. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tina Marie Holmboe >>>>>I can't find it exactly, but >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I'm not sure that literacy would be the deciding factor, but probably >by those who didn't use it and the more educated of those who did. My point yesterday was that your use of "substandard dialect" is no less judgemental than mine of "illiterate", IMO. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>>I can't find it exactly, but >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > My point yesterday was that your use of "substandard dialect" is no > less judgemental than mine of "illiterate", IMO. I see it as far less judgemental. The one merely says that the construction in question wasn't considered acceptable in situations that required the standard dialect, while the other casts aspersions on the abilities of the person who used it. I suspect that many a rural person who was considered "educated" in their community would have used it and many who did would have shuddered at the thought of using it in writing. Because *they* considered it substandard, even though they used it in casual conversation. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!" Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Yes, but I didn't tell them that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out," (650)857-7572 |said Susan. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ <snip> >> My point yesterday was that your use of "substandard dialect" is no >> less judgemental than mine of "illiterate", IMO. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that required the standard dialect, while the other casts aspersions >on the abilities of the person who used it. <snip> An aspersion is, according to the COD10, "an attack on someone's character or reputation". If someone admits he is illiterate or if he is counted as such by someone else, in a non-disparaging way, no aspersions need be cast, IMO. A question remains whether we are talking about an accusation or simply a statement of fact, when mentioning someone's illiteracy. As for you and me, Evan, my impression is that you judge it a greater fault than I do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > talking about an accusation or simply a statement of fact, when > mentioning someone's illiteracy. Oh, if you simply meant that you wondered whether the use of the construction was largely confined to people who did, in fact, not know how to read or write, I have no data, but as basic literacy was sufficiently widespread by that point, I'd say that I doubt it. And I apologize for taking you as implying that there was anything wrong with being illiterate or with assuming that something might only be used by illiterates. > As for you and me, Evan, my impression is that you judge it a > greater fault than I do. I have to say I'm intrigued then, if you didn't mean it as implying some value judgment like "insufficiently educated", by why you chose to ask the question the way you did. What makes you think that not being able to read might make one more likely to use this construction? But I think I'd also say that you consider "substandard dialect" a much greater fault than I do. Indeed, as a linguist, I don't think I really consider it a knock at all, but rather a recognition of the effect such uses will have in some situations. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate |profundity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ <snip> >I have to say I'm intrigued then, if you didn't mean it as implying >some value judgment like "insufficiently educated", by why you chose [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >really consider it a knock at all, but rather a recognition of the >effect such uses will have in some situations. "Substandard dialect", as in less than standard, sounded like a slap in the face, to me. But if you say it is a routine linguistic term having no judgemental value, I have to take your word for it. This may be my first encounter with it, due to my illiteracy in your field of linguistics. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > My life has been anything but sheltered and I've never heard it in > either America, Scotland or Ireland. Really? Can't say as I've had the same experience. I'm quite familiar with the usage. Dialectal, sure. I've been exposed to some dialectal people. Married one once. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>> Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the usage. Dialectal, sure. I've been exposed to some dialectal people. >Married one once. I had that misfortune, myself. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> On Feb 18, 8:08 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > OK. I guess that's why I'd never heard of such usage, having lived > all my life in the sheltered environment down under :) I don't know as how I can disagree with that. >>>>>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>>>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Huh? Every woman wants to find a man as she can trust completely? Well, not every woman, but I know a few as do. SignatureWet Yorks via Watford, London, York and Cambridge >>>>>>>> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >>>>>>>> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Well, not every woman, but I know a few as do. 'Appen as like. -- Mike Page >> On 2010-02-18 16:01:33 +0100, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> s > aid: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > What the heck, how about "as"? Yes, you can hear that as well in BrE, though I don't suppose the Queen would say it. > I don't think I've ever heard "what" in this sense in the wild--I know > it only from books and movies and stuff. Signatureathel >> > Technically yes, but it doesn't sound like dialogue. The sentence works >> > without "whom". >> >> Or with "that" (though I realize that some people here believe in the >> superstition that "that" can't refer to a person). > To complete the list, the sentence is fine for dialogue with "whom", > "that", "who", or no relative pronoun. So the question is: What would > that character, at that time and place, under those conditions, say? > (Unless you're writing an avant-garde screenplay where you purposely > have people break character.) The OP hasn't mentioned the period in which his screenplay is based. If it's a 19thC (or earlier) drama, then the more archaic forms of the language may be more appropriate. SignatureAndy Clews University of Sussex *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email *** Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:16:58 +0100 from Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel_cb@yahoo.co.uk>: > >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. > >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Or with "that" (though I realize that some people here believe in the > superstition that "that" can't refer to a person). If the speaker is supposed to be American, I think it would be usual to omit the relative entirely: "a man she can trust completely". SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Technically yes, but it doesn't sound like dialogue. The sentence works >without "whom". Better yet, IMO, "Every woman wants a man she can trust completely". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The sentence > works without "whom". And the advice works even better with "better". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. > This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is that the proper use of 'whom'? Yes, this is grammatically correct -- but few people actually speak thus. Your simplest solution may be simply to omit the relative pronoun. People really do say, "Every woman wants to find a man she can trust completely." SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. >> This time, I'm dealing with dialogue: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >do say, "Every woman wants to find a man she >can trust completely." My "Every woman wants a man she can trust completely" was not only first, I think it is better. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Folks, I need more help with my screenplay. This time, I'm dealing with > dialogue: > > "Every woman wants to find a man whom she can trust completely." > > Is that the proper use of 'whom'? Grammatically, yes. The pronoun is in the accusative ("objective") case. If you're not big on formally parsing sentences, you can almost always get by with the inversion rule-of-thumb; turn the sentence around and see whether he or him (or she or her) fits naturally: She can trust whom/him completely. As others have pointed out, as a matter of script dialogue, there may be considerations aside from grammar determining the choice, but it's best to know the grammar before making that choice. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ |
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