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Discussion Groups / English Usage / March 2010P.T. of "What I say goes"
I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second and third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. > I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second > and third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? No. It may be possible to find it in jocular or unintentionally awkward utterances, but then the meaning is not merely that of the original plus the past tense. > "What he said went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. At its heart, 'go' is a defective verb, and in many cases its senses will not survive the grafting of 'went' for the past tense.  SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> Warbama's Afghaninam day: 99 2382.8 hours since Warbama declared Viet Nam II. Warbama: An LBJ for the Twenty-First century. No hope. No change. > I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second and > third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said > went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. Yes it can. There's nothing clumsy about it. > > third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said > > went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. > > Yes it can. There's nothing clumsy about it. I agree. "What he said went" is perfectly acceptable English (I'm AmE). >>> third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said >>> went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. >> Yes it can. There's nothing clumsy about it. > > I agree. "What he said went" is perfectly acceptable English (I'm > AmE). "Mr. Chames was Mr. Chames, and what he said went." P. G. Wodehouse, "The Gem Collector" SignatureJames >>> expression "What I say goes" and its second and >>>> third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > P. G. Wodehouse, "The Gem Collector" I love P.G.Wodehouse, but I haven't read 'The Gem Collector'. Thanks for the replies, everyone. That's three ayes to one nay. Any more nays? On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote > Thanks for the replies, everyone. That's three ayes to one nay. > Any more nays? Make it 4 ayes; it sounds fine to me. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote > >> Thanks for the replies, everyone. That's three ayes to one nay. >> Any more nays? > >Make it 4 ayes; it sounds fine to me. Make it two nays. What he says goes, is, far and away, what you generally hear. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Make it two nays. What he says goes, is, far and away, what you > generally hear. What if he's dead? SignatureJames >>> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >What if he's dead? Then you would say "He was one of those 'What I say goes' guys". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Then you would say "He was one of those 'What I say goes' guys". I cetainly wouldn't say that, nor would I expect to hear it except from a teenager who might say 'he was like what I say goes". >>>> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Then you would say "He was one of those 'What I say goes' guys". I gotta agree with Chuck and Tony. "What he said went" sounds clunky and unnatural. SignatureAl in St. Lou >>>>> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I gotta agree with Chuck and Tony. "What he said went" sounds clunky and > unnatural. Not to me. It like the past tenses of those verbs like "forego" - "forwent" is fine, but some people think it's odd because you don't often hear it. Just because a form is rare that does not make it wrong. SignatureRob Bannister On 11 Mar 2010, Chuck Riggs wrote >> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Make it two nays. What he says goes, is, far and away, what you > generally hear. I don't think anyone's disputing the frequency count of the two forms, only whether the past tense would ever be used by a native speaker who wasn't trying to be jocular or clever. How would you phrase it if you were definitely speaking of the past -- say about someone who's dead: "You never knew your great-grandfather, but he was very strict: what he says goes, and that was that"? It sounds downright perverse to me. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote > >> Thanks for the replies, everyone. That's three ayes to one nay. >> Any more nays? > > Make it 4 ayes; it sounds fine to me. I would certainly understand it, and might even say it, but it sounds a bit strained to me. Still more so if someone attempted a future tense: By then I will be the boss, and what I say will go. or an irrealis: If I were the boss, what I said would go. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Sex is an impediment to reproduction whose function is to :|| ||: complicate life. :|| On 11 Mar 2010, Joe Fineman wrote >> On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > or an irrealis: > If I were the boss, what I said would go. Interesting; hadn't thought of that angle. But trying it on for size, "When I'm in charge, what I say will go" doesn't seem strained to me; there's no unidiomatic "clang" there. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > > On 11 Mar 2010, pimpom wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > If I were the boss, what I said would go. Had I been the boss, what I would have said would have gone.... -- >>> I agree. "What he said went" is perfectly acceptable English >>> (I'm [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Thanks for the replies, everyone. That's three ayes to one nay. >Any more nays? P.G.Wodehouse, God rest his soul, is not evidence. He was a master of the invented word or phrase; many of the expressions he invented have since entered the language, but some have not. I would still regard "what he said went" as a perfectly understandable but jocular non-standard expression, and indeed I think I would pick it up as a Wodehouse-ism wherever I saw it. So that would be a nay, I think. Katy > expression "What I say goes" and its second and >>> third person > variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said >>> went" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > P. G. Wodehouse, "The Gem Collector" Mmm, but Woodhouse loved palying with language to comic effect. Similarly, there's this from Saki: The cook was a good cook, as cooks go; and as good cooks go, she went. DC -- > > expression "What I say goes" and its second and >>> third person > > variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said >>> went" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Mmm, but Woodhouse loved palying Ahem. -- >> > third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he said >> > went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I agree. "What he said went" is perfectly acceptable English (I'm >AmE). The thrust of the question, though, seemed to me to be about the applicability of the sentence, not the grammar. While the sentence may be acceptable, it would not be used as the past tense of the "What I say goes" expression in any normal, non-joking, conversation. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >>> expression "What I say goes" and its second and >>>> third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? "What he [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > may be acceptable, it would not be used as the past tense of the "What > I say goes" expression in any normal, non-joking, conversation. Hmmm....have to disagree; I can well imagine it being used in all seriousness. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Hmmm....have to disagree; I can well imagine it being used in all > seriousness. I can't imagine any other way of talking about this in the past. SignatureJames >> On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I can't imagine any other way of talking about this in the past. The comment is about the nature of the person. There are any number of ways to describe this type of person, most of them beginning with "He was a...". It's not necessary to re-form the statement to describe the nature of the person. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >>> On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >>>> The thrust of the question, though, seemed to me to be about the >>>> applicability of the sentence, not the grammar. While the sentence [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "He was a...". It's not necessary to re-form the statement to > describe the nature of the person. I wouldn't say it's *necessary* to do that, but it seems an entirely natural thing to do; it certainly wouldn't strike me as odd (or inherently jocular) to hear someone use it in the past tense. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > thing to do; it certainly wouldn't strike me as odd (or inherently jocular) to > hear someone use it in the past tense. For example; "Davis was the dominant figure of postwar British snooker, and what he said went. 'Davis put the dead hand on Hoolihan,' said Everton." http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,708304,00.html I don't pick up on any jocularity here. Mark > On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:23:44 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > may be acceptable, it would not be used as the past tense of the "What > I say goes" expression in any normal, non-joking, conversation. Again, I disagree. It seems like a perfectly normal past tense to me. There's nothing particularly abnormal or jocular about saying something like, "My Catholic school teacher was incredibly strict-what she said went." >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:23:44 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >something like, "My Catholic school teacher was incredibly strict-what >she said went." We can all come up with sentences where "What he said went" is used not abnormally. What I maintain, though, is that you will not hear those sentences used in everyday conversation. It's my opinion that a non-native-English speaker wants to know what form he can expect to hear or use in everyday conversation. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote > We can all come up with sentences where "What he said went" is used > not abnormally. What I maintain, though, is that you will not hear > those sentences used in everyday conversation. And that's where some of us disagree fundamentally. I see nothing remotely out of the ordinary or "not everyday" about statements like "My Catholic school teacher was incredibly strict-what she said went", or "You're lucky you weren't living in this house when your grandfather was alive: what he said went". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > or "You're lucky you weren't living in this house when your grandfather was > alive: what he said went". Could this be pondial? SignatureAl in St. Lou >>> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:23:44 -0800 (PST), "sjdevn...@yahoo.com" >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > non-native-English speaker wants to know what form he can expect to > hear or use in everyday conversation. But this is not everyday conversation. That's why some of you find it odd and are trying to find even odder paraphrases. SignatureRob Bannister > I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second > and third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? > "What he said went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. Yes, it's fine. Maybe you'll get more used to it by doing a Google web search with a wildcard: "whatever * said went" which gives about 300 examples, such as: -- Hoover ruled the FBI with an iron hand, and whatever he said went -- Whatever mum said went and there was nothing you could do about it. -- And whatever Tony said, went in those days. -- whatever Mark said, went, as far as I was concerned I've been trying to think of some old joke that used this construction. It finally hit me. It's not exactly this idiom, though, but a different sense of "go": "The cook was a good cook, as cooks go; and as good cooks go, she went." A quick Google attributes the line to Saki and I'm satisfied with that. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux "Pimpom" asks: >> I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second >> and third person variants. Can it be used in the past tense? >> "What he said went" sounds clumsy to me. I'm a non-native user. I agree that it's a natural formation, but it feels *less* natural to me than the present-tense usage. I'd be more likely to look for another wording, I think. Perhaps this is why you've had different answers. Donna Richoux answers: > Yes, it's fine. Maybe you'll get more used to it by doing a Google web > search with a wildcard: > > "whatever * said went" There, that's another wording, and that one does feel natural to me. (I suppose Donna feels the same way and changed it without even noticing that she'd changed it.) And, thinking about it further, I think I know why. "What I say goes" is in the present tense, and "I" can be "saying" only one thing at the present moment. It may apply to other times by extension, because the present tense can be used for general truths, but it doesn't explicitly talk about other times. "Whatever I say goes", on the other hand, is explicitly talking about hypothetical utterances that I might make, so it's clear that it covers a range of times. When we transpose into the past tense, we're talking about a range of times in the past, and utterances that might have been made throughout those times. So now "what" is still possible, but it sounds more as though it's talking about a specific utterance; and "whatever" is more natural. At least, that's how it seems to me. Certainly others may disagree. On this point, what I say does not necessarily go. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Where do you want Microsoft to go today?" msb@vex.net -- Rick Ross My text in this article is in the public domain. >"Pimpom" asks: >>> I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >than the present-tense usage. I'd be more likely to look for another >wording, I think. Perhaps this is why you've had different answers. The same thing is what is going through my mind. It's correct, but another wording would normally be used in everyday conversation. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > "Pimpom" asks: >>> I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > disagree. > On this point, what I say does not necessarily go. Taking that as a 'nay', so far the ayes have it five to four. Perhaps I should clarify some of the points raised in the replies: I was asking more about the applicability of the past tense in idiomatic usage than about the grammatical aspect, though I'm not totally unconcerned about the grammar either. The question came up in my mind while I was thinking about someone, a real person who is alive and well, but in connection with certain events in his past. Regarding the matter of his personality, this persion is neither aggressive nor domineering. In fact, he tends to be genuinely diffident even towards those who look up to him. But his professional skills and general acuity are such that his opinions and proposals are usually accepted without question. In other words, what he says goes - in practically anything in which he's involved. Now for the matter of using the expression in the past tense: There were several episodes in this person's life when he was involved in group undertakings in which, well, what he said went. Some of those episodes were brief while some went on for years. In many of those undertakings, he was reluctantly pressed into taking the leadership position. As I said at the beginning, I'm a non-native user, living far from any place where English is natively spoken and I rarely have an opportunity to use it in speech. Nevertheless, I sometimes think in English because it is richer in certain contexts than my own language. This is one of those instances and I was wondering if it's OK to say "what he said went" when describing one of those events in this person's past. I've described his personality in some detail because some of you seem to think that the expression has more to do with a person's nature than with his stature. In this person's case, what he says goes solely due to the high regard other have for him. >> "Pimpom" asks: >>>> I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > several episodes in this person's life when he was involved in group > undertakings in which, well, what he said went. And there's your answer. There's nothing wrong with it, or unnatural about it. >I've described his personality in some detail because some of you >seem to think that the expression has more to do with a person's >nature than with his stature. In this person's case, what he says >goes solely due to the high regard other have for him. I don't think this has anything to do with the question. At least, not from my perspective. I agree that it is an acceptable way of phrasing the statement. I don't agree that it is a way that the statement would normally be phrased. It doesn't make any difference who is being referred to. I'm not approaching this from the "Can you say this?" side. I'm approaching this from "Would you say this?" side. I don't think most people would. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >> I've described his personality in some detail because some of you >> seem to think that the expression has more to do with a person's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > approaching this from "Would you say this?" side. I don't think most > people would. I figure your definition of "most" must be different to mine. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I figure your definition of "most" must be different to mine. Maybe we speak different languages, Harvey. I would say "different from mine". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Harvey Van Sickle: >> I figure your definition of "most" must be different to mine. Tony Cooper: > Maybe we speak different languages, Harvey. I would say "different > from mine". AUE FAQ: # "Different from" is the construction that no one will object to. # "Different to" is fairly common informally in the U.K., but rare in # the U.S. "Different than" is sometimes used to avoid the cumbersome # "different from that which", etc. (e.g., "a very different Pamela # than I used to leave all company and pleasure for" -- Samuel # Richardson). Some U.S. speakers use "different than" exclusively. # Some people have insisted on "different from" on the grounds that # "from" is required after "to differ". But Fowler points out that # there are many other adjectives that do not conform to the # construction of their parent verbs (e.g., "accords with", but # "according to"; "derogates from", but "derogatory to"). # # The Collins Cobuild Bank of English shows choice of preposition # after "different" to be distributed as follows: # # "from" "to" "than" # ----- ---- ------ # U.K. writing 87.6 10.8 1.5 # U.K. speech 68.8 27.3 3.9 # U.S. writing 92.7 0.3 7.0 # U.S. speech 69.3 0.6 30.1 SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net "The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson > Tony Cooper: > > Maybe we speak different languages, Harvey. I would say "different [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > conform to the # construction of their parent verbs (e.g., "accords > with", but # "according to"; "derogates from", but "derogatory to"). Yebbut, I still want to do harm to the Manchester Piccadilly station announcer who always announces 'the train now arriving to the departure end of Platform 6 is the 8.35 to Slabbersthwaite...' DC -- On 12 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >> On 11 Mar 2010, tony cooper wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Maybe we speak different languages, Harvey. I would say "different > from mine". Ah, the oldies are the besties, aren't they... (When I first looked that up years ago and discovered that Fowler completely dismissed the insistence on "from" as a superstition, I decided not to worry about which form I used. Life's been a lot simpler since then.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > As I said at the beginning, I'm a non-native user, living far > from any place where English is natively spoken and I rarely have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > nature than with his stature. In this person's case, what he says > goes solely due to the high regard other have for him. That is interesting because (for me, at least) "his word went" is pretty close to "his word was law", whereas you mean (I think) something more along the lines of "his opinions were highly respected". SignatureRob Bannister >> As I said at the beginning, I'm a non-native user, living far >> from any place where English is natively spoken and I rarely have [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > something more along the lines of "his opinions were highly > respected". Words went, writs ran. > >> As I said at the beginning, I'm a non-native user, living far > >> from any place where English is natively spoken and I rarely have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Words went, writs ran. Who was then the gentleman? -- franzi On Mar 15, 9:21 pm, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> wrote: [What he said, went"?] > > > That is interesting because (for me, at least) "his word went" is > > > pretty close to "his word was law", whereas you mean (I think) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Who was then the gentleman? > -- Spinning beginnings to today's span, The thief's heir is the chief man. > "Pimpom" asks: > >> I'm familiar with the expression "What I say goes" and its second [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > (I suppose Donna feels the same way and changed it without even noticing > that she'd changed it.) I altered the wording deliberately. My Googling instinct told me that anything of the form "what he said went" was going to bring up too many completely irrelevant responses, and checking it now, I see it does. Such things as: And what Brad said went something like this And what he said went like this the first, pre-historic "that's what she said" went down something like this did exactly what Caroline said. Went into Kl for My opinion was that "whatever" did not change the meaning and was just as idiomatic; it only gave it a sort of emphasis that would limit the responses. The desired results were more concentrated. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > "The cook was a good cook, as cooks go; and as good cooks go, she > went." Wandering farther afield, there was a humorous caption for a photograph in a book about American baseball. The picture showed an umpire arguing nose-to-nose with manager Billy Martin. The caption said something along the lines of, "[Umpire's name] right, Billy Martin left. And that's exactly how it went." Brian SignatureDay 401 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project Just as a side point, if you think "P.T." means "past tense", what would you write if you meant "present tense"? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "*Nature*, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are put in this msb@vex.net | world *to rise above*." -- The African Queen > Just as a side point, if you think "P.T." means "past tense", > what > would you write if you meant "present tense"? You got me there. |
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